Chakra and Ki are the same?

I don't think they are the same at all. I do believe that they share similarities, but are not the same thing. My cousin and I are debating about Current Goku vs Itachi, and he keeps bringing up genjustu. I say Itachi gets blitzed before he even has time to activate genjustu, but I also don't believe Ki=Chakra. He does. We are always debating about Narutoverse vs DBverse, and he always gets heated because he says that I'm in denial about Narutoverse's top tiers being better fighters and such.

Ki and Chakra are pretty much the same thing.

Also the more chakra a character in Naruto has the stronger they are. Currently no one in Naruto could take on current Goku physically

Also I do believe characters in Naruto are better fighters.

@kgb725: they aren't better fighters though... db characters on the higher tier just one chop you to the neck to ko you instantly. Bout as efficient as it gets.

IMO they are diferent.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/seg-story-volume-truth-about-dragon-ball/

What is the key to winning in battle?

In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki.

@scotchbear: That's just the power difference between them not actual skill or proficiency

@kgb725: But they've shown skill multiple times within the show. They use tactics same as Narutoverse to win

Nope Chakra and Ki aren't same, one have an origin from an alien tree other doesn't have a specific origin. Ki is a universal energy which can be found in anyone

They are not the same... KI is said to be life energy and every living being has it. Chakara is just a power given to man by aliens. Not only that but Chakara is extremely more complex than KI.

Yes, they are the same.

Genjustus work on DB characters.

@thedeathstar: That pic of you crying really helped change my mind.

@never_give_up: nope it really doesn't because genjustu messes with the charka in ones body but dragon ball characters don't have chakra meaning it won't work

they are not, but they often work the same way

@goruto: 2 posts and saying Genjustus won't work on DB characters? How could I possibly fall for a bait like that.

Both have obvious inspiration from Wuxia stories often based off of Taoism/Daoism

The word Chakra has roots in Hinduism.

Both belong the category of spiritual energy.

If you ready wuxia it isn't uncommon for there to be a variety of different "Energies" even in the same story.

@goruto: Please read the manga before bringing up old arguments which have been debunked thoroughly and repetitively.

A outliner from Kaguya that contradicts everything established in Part 1 does not equal debunked. No one was even entertaining the fact that it worked on people without chakra before that happened. Kaguya is the only example that can be brought up while there are countless of panels stating otherwise about how genjutsu works. Yet people ignore the literal translation of saying how genjutsu works. Obvious plot hole is obvious because kishi rewrote the origin of chakra.

@freshflintstone:

A outliner from Kaguya that contradicts everything established in Part 1 does not equal debunked.

In fact, it does, because not only was chakra never a stated requirement for genjutsu to work in the first place, we have a canon feat that basically goes against a statement which is often taken out of context. That statement being Jiraiya's.

No one was even entertaining the fact that it worked on people without chakra before that happened.

And no one ever said genjutsu works by targeting an opponent's chakra. That would be the five senses.

Kaguya is the only example that can be brought up while there are countless of panels stating otherwise about how genjutsu works.

Please show the panel that states genjutsu will only work on an opponent with chakra.

Yet people ignore the literal translation of saying how genjutsu works. Obvious plot hole is obvious because kishi rewrote the origin of chakra.

Quite the contrary, people ignore the on panel feats, which don't contradict much of anything, really. All because they don't like the fact that their favorite character is vulnerable to a certain technique. Pretty sure all of this was addressed last time you brought up the genjutsu argument.

@thedarkpaladin: It targets the five senses by disrupting chakra flow. It's clearly stated. It's clear as crystal there is no misinterpretation you just have to outright deny it. What is taken out of context when it literally states how it's done " control the chakra flowing through and linking their carnal nerves"

@thedarkpaladin: it targets the five senses, DB characters learned to fight using Ki sensing since Mr Popo's training, I would say they (Genjutsu users) could trick Nappa and Raditz, and maybe saiyan Saga Vegeta if he does't TK implodes them but against the rest of the cast they get f***ed.

Remember the OVA where Vegeta's brother was introduced? They highlight how the basics of fighting is not relaying on their eyes but in the Ki.

@freshflintstone:

That isn't what the scan says. "Genjutsu is something that works on your opponent's five senses." In the next sentence, Jiriaya mentions controlling the chakra flowing through and linking their cranial nerves, which could just be an extra function. Meanwhile, we have two feats where genjutsu has been shown to work on characters without chakra.

1. Kaguya putting the entire planet under genjutsu, even though herself and her two sons were the only ones with chakra at the time.

2. Madara putting normal house cats, which don't have chakra, under genjutsu.

@thedarkpaladin: to be honest, the definition of how Genjutsu works now helps many verses whose characters have more than the standard five senses.

Like Saint Seiya or Star Wars.

... Also DB characters who have Ki sensing.

Of course it works on your five senses because that is what the intended affect is. How is that debunking anything. It's done by controlling chakra flow. How is that a extra function? That is how it's done. That's why when you stop your own chakra flow the genjutsu is stopped. If it had nothing to do with chakra disrupting stopping your own flow would do nothing

3% of battery, well, I can continue tomorrow... Or today in 8 hours.

I am actually quite happy with how people define Genjutsu now.

@purple_d_dragon:

it targets the five senses, DB characters learned to fight using Ki sensing since Mr Popo's training, I would say they (Genjutsu users) could trick Nappa and Raditz, and maybe saiyan Saga Vegeta if he does't TK implodes them but against of the rest of the cast they get f***ed.

Yeah, they have ki sensing, but genjutsu can function in many different ways, from putting people under an illusion to flat out controlling them. Higher tier DB characters can easily blitz anyone in the Narutoverse before they can even think to react, but I see no reason why the technique itself wouldn't still work.

Remember the OVA where Vegeta's brother was introduced? They highlight how the basics of fighting is not relaying on their eyes but in the Ki.

Yes, but its canonocity is dubious. Regardless, I agree that they don't need their eyes to fight, but at this point, there isn't any reason to believe they are immune to mental attacks.

to be honest, the definition of how Genjutsu works now helps many verses whose characters have more than the standard five senses.

Like Saint Seiya or Star Wars.

True, but their standard five senses can still be targeted. I guess it just depends on their resistance to mental attacks.

@freshflintstone:

Of course it works on your five senses because that is what the intended affect is. How is that debunking anything. It's done by controlling chakra flow. How is that a extra function? That is how it's done. That's why when you stop your own chakra flow the genjutsu is stopped. If it had nothing to do with chakra disrupting stopping your own flow would do nothing

No, that's just a possible function. Once again, the series itself proves the notion that chakra is needed for it work wrong at least twice. In essence, the manga debunks your interpretation.

Edit:

Stopping your chakra flow is only one method to breaking genjutsu. You can also do so by causing yourself enough pain, which, last I checked, has nothing to do with chakra.

@thedarkpaladin: Vegeta's brother was mentioned in Battle of the Gods, not sure if they mentioned it in Super as I skipped that part, but I think it is canon.

I explained how Ki sensing can save them from illusions, mind control is harder to resist, but of course, knowing and sensing how it is not real certainly helps.

I would need to see people who have energy sensing powers (the kind that overwrites their other senses) being put under Genjutsu.

:)

2% ... Good Night everyone.

That's the only stated function.A outliner and plothole that wasn't thought up until 5 years later isn't going to change that. The scans i showed prove that. IT is a plot hole

@purple_d_dragon:

Vegeta's brother was mentioned in Battle of the Gods, not sure if they mentioned it in Super as I skipped that part, but I think it is canon.

They removed the part where Bulma mentions his name in Super.

I explained how Ki sensing can save them from illusions, mind control is harder to resist, but of course, knowing and sensing how it is not real certainly helps.

I agree that illusion based genjutsu probably wouldn't be very effective against a character with proficient ki control, but as I've said, there are other ways to apply genjutsu.

I would need to see people who have energy sensing powers (the kind that overwrites their other senses) being put under Genjutsu.

:)

Eh, for me it's the opposite. I would need to see them actually resisting genjutsu, or a similar kind of mental attack, before saying it won't work. :p

2% ... Good Night everyone.

Night.

Secondly if genjutsu is nothing more than telepathy and not chakra disruption why can't it work on someone with the same eyes? Sasuke wasn't caught in IT

@freshflintstone:

That's the only stated function.A outliner and plothole that wasn't thought up until 5 years later isn't going to change that. The scans i showed prove that. IT is a plot hole

It isn't an outlier simply because your scans don't prove that chakra is needed for genjutsu to work. Controlling chakra is just a possible function, while the genjutsu itself works on the five senses. One statement that is continuously taken out of context, never actually says chakra is needed for the technique to work, and goes against two on panel feats, proves nothing wrong.

I don't get how you saying it works on the five senses is an argument. The intended affect is for it to manipulate the five senses. Then Jiraiya went on to elaborate how it does that. If you want to say that is one function of how it works then fine. That just means every SINGLE genjutsu in Naruto needs an explained function or we have no way to know how it works on anybody since Jiraiya already gave one function.. As of right now IT would be the only one, except for the weird fact that Telepathy would work on someone regardless if they had a Rinnegan or not. So Sasuke>>>>Mind control

@freshflintstone:

Secondly if genjutsu is nothing more than telepathy and not chakra disruption why can't it work on someone with the same eyes? Sasuke wasn't caught in IT

Because the sharingan can see through genjutsu. Sasuke explains this himself during his battle with Itachi:

And Zetsu explains why IT wasn't effective on Sasuke:

@thedarkpaladin: But that still doesn't make sense because everyone can realize they are in genjutsu. Sasuke can still be caught in genjutsu(Kabuto) so him outright resisting IT makes no sense. Susanoo was for Naruto's protection. Sasuke just straight up resisted it. Also IT works on Jinchuriki , this is also another phenomenon

@freshflintstone:

I don't get how you saying it works on the five senses is an argument.

...Because that's how genjutsu works.

The intended affect is for it to manipulate the five senses. Then Jiraiya went on to elaborate how it does that.

Which is, like I've already explained, just one possible function. It still works on the five senses.

If you want to say that is one function of how it works then fine.

Cool. Because the series already illustrates twice that chakra isn't needed for it to work.

That just means every SINGLE genjutsu in Naruto needs an explained function or we have no way to know how it works on anybody since Jiraiya already gave one function..

And why is that? Jiraiya never said a target needs chakra in the first place, and since he never explained what genjutsu that function applies to, I don't see your point. None of this changes the fact that his explanation was pretty clear. Genjutsu works on the five senses.

As of right now IT would be the only one, except for the weird fact that Telepathy would work on someone regardless if they had a Rinnegan or not. So Sasuke>>>>Mind control

No, it wouldn't. As of now, every single genjutsu works on the five senses, regardless of whether the chakra is being manipulated or not.

@thedarkpaladin: You have to describe other functions for it then. You can't just say a certain genjutsu functions a certain way without having no way of knowing. Saying it targets the five senses isn't explaining anything we know it controls five senses, the method in how it does it requires a function which can be a variety of different ways like you admitted . IT is the only outliner which contradicts things like Jinchuriki being put in genjutsu . Also IT doesn't work on Edos. If it is simple telepathy why can't it work on them? We already know Edo's can in fact be put in genjutsu. Thus further proving IT is a plothole filled mess

Sharingan doesn't see through every genjutsu, and seeing through a genjutsu doesn't necassarily equate to breaking one. Remember, both he and his brother still had to break Kabuto's genjutsu. There are other genjutsu besides IT that can work on perfect Jinchuuriki. The Crab from the Last put Naruto under genjutsu, even though he was a perfect Jinchuuriki at the time. Naruto also says that Bee would be finished by Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu, right after he broke Itachi's standard genjutsu.

@freshflintstone: Not really, because Jiraiya himself admits that chakra isn't required for a genjutsu to work. Notice the "While in genjutsu, the chakra in your head is being controlled by your opponent":

This reinforces the point that chakra isn't necessarily a requirement to be put under genjutsu. Chakra being controlled is just a result of that. Perfect Jinchuurikis being placed under IT doesn't help your point when those same perfect jinchuurikis have been affected by other genjutsus.

@thedarkpaladin: Just now found out about the Crab with you mentioning it since i haven't watched The Last. Genjutsu seems to have rules whenever it's convenient . The Crab, IT on jinchurikis , IT not working on Edo's. Maybe Kishi just threw everything all the rules out. Just remembered that Obito controlled Yagura too. It's a mess

A possible theory for why IT didn't have any effect on the Kages might have been because they were made from Zetsu. This could also explain why Obito was saved as well; since Black Zetsu ad been controlling him at the time. IT's purpose is to turn the living into Zetsu after all.

That makes sense, also makes Madara look like a complete tool for activating IT without knowing it's true purpose. Izanagi is a genjutsu that also can work on a dead person since Madara revived himself with it so that is another weird genjutsu

@freshflintstone: Yeah, Madara had no idea that Black Zetsu made changes to the stone in the Uchiha monument. He actually thought Black Zetsu was his will. Lol

But I do think Kishi should have provided more clarification on IT than he did. Perhaps he was just trying to end the manga as quickly as possible.

If the god tree can be absorbed can't IT be activated without the Tree trapping people? Madara was the one to put people in the branches when IT was already cast. Maybe it was for survival since they would need a source to survive of off.

@freshflintstone: Yeah, it can. Remember, Madara used IT on Obito back when they first met. It can actually be used on just a single person if the caster chooses to do so. I guess the God Tree's purpose is just to turn the people into White Zetsu, not IT.

Wait that was not Izanagi, He revived himself with taking control over Obito and letting him use Gedou Rinne Tensei no Jutsu (only the Rinnegan has the power to revive the dead)

He was killed in his fight with Hashirama but revived himself. He used Genjutsu on himself despite being dead lol