Delete pls

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Just_Banter

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#1  Edited By Just_Banter
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The man, the myth, the legend. We all know who he is, and we can all agree that he can solo this gauntlet normally. What people can't seem to agree on however, is just how skilled Goku actually is. There are people who say that Goku is one of the best martial artists in fiction, whilst others say he's below average. This gauntlet is designed to test Goku's skill, and only Goku's skill, against characters who are amongst the best out there (apart from Naruto, he's just there for a starting point).

Rules:

  • Stats equalised for everyone. Goku can use feats from any transformation or any time period (including feats with his power pole) for skill, but there are no stat boosts here, and everyone is on the level.
  • No energy blasts for either team. This is strict CQC, so no arguments consisting of "Character A spams blasts from a distance. GG."
  • No other abilities that don't directly relate to a CQC fight. For example, that would mean no doors for Midnighter, but he can use the battle computer. You guys should be able to make the distinctions when they come.
  • Characters who use weapons can keep those weapons, but can't use abilities with them. For example, Jin can use his staff, but can't extend it, shrink it etc.
  • This gauntlet is probably out of order due to it being difficult to definitively rank skill. I apologise in advance.
  • All fights take place in a Budokai arena, because why not.

Round 1:

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Naruto Uzumaki

Round 2:

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Sanji

Round 3:

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Baki Hanma (Don't know where to place him)

Round 4:

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Jin Mo-Ri

Round 5:

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Yusuke Urameshi

Round 6:

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Neji Hyūga

Round 7:

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Shichika Yasuri

Round 8:

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Akisame Koetsuji

Round 9:

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Kenshiro

Round 10:

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Sasaki Kojiro

If the gauntlets out of order let me know and I'll change it.

Last note, I know this breaks the rules of huge nerfing to make a fair fight, but this isn't so much supposed to be a 'fight' thread as it is a thread to have a proper discussion on Goku's actual combat skill. Might still get locked though, I'm not a mod. If this needs to be in Gen. Discussion let me know as well and I'll switch it.

I did look this thread up beforehand, but the only one I could find was locked for having non anime characters involved.

Have fun :)

EDIT - Due to people pointing out that there were too many swordsmen (despite there being only three) I removed some of them and shuffled some other people around. However, Sasaki is still at round 10 since I can't think of a h2h user who can beat him off the top of my head. Let me know if there is one and I'll replace Sasaki.

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jadenlol

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He stops at neji.

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nickzambuto

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Clears casually after testing and toying around with everyone for a bit.

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PreCrisisBardock

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He clears rather easily he surpassed someone called the God of Martial Arts as a child and has learned to sense the slightest change in the atmosphere.

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Shadowmaster91

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Stops at Neji. In skill, Goku is not that much. He IS powerful, but in skill.......

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Just_Banter

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He clears rather easily he surpassed someone called the God of Martial Arts as a child and has learned to sense the slightest change in the atmosphere.

Stops at Neji. In skill, Goku is not that much. He IS powerful, but in skill.......

I see some different opinions being put out there...

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Shadowmaster91

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@just_banter: Consider that many consider Goku as Superman, incredible powerful, but in the skill department they are not that much.

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PreCrisisBardock

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@shadowmaster91: How does Neji stand a prayer? Neji has no contendable CQC feats.

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Shadowmaster91

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jadenlol

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#11  Edited By jadenlol
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Mee09

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Goku clears

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Khael

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Skill only? Stops at one

Goku relies too much on stats

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Mee09

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#14  Edited By Mee09

@khael: No one in Naruto except Lee and Guy are even half the martial artists Goku is. Most of their H2H movements aren't even actual forms or attacks.

No one in the MMA refers to Naruto characters when referring to fictional martial artists. There is a very real reason for that.

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Khael

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@mee09: More acrobatic, better choreography. Goku's moves are mainly basic punches and kicks, it's far from impressive.

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Mee09

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#16  Edited By Mee09

@khael: They aren't better acrobatics. Everyone in Dragonball can do flips. Back in Dragonball people were jumping so high into the sky it was assumed they vanished. They just don't rely on them as much as most in Naruto because they can fly and fight ridiculously well in mid air. Better choreography is an opinion and should not even be brought up. Goku uses real forms and martial art techniques. Along with many other fighting styles that no one in the Naruto Universe has ever even seen. If Lee and Guy saw Goku fight they would humble him.

I always find it incrediblely hilarious when people try to bring up acrobatics in H2H skill based thread. Trying to do a bunch of nonsensical flips in a real fight will get you countered and or knocked out. Very rarely does acrobatics actually give someone an edge in a fight. That's why there are no champion Capoeira fighters in the UFC.

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Khael

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@mee09: I think they are. Naruto vs Sasuke fight scenes are more acrobatics than most DB fights, it has better choreography too

I don't think we're making any point here.

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stormshadow_x

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hmmmm

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Mee09

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#19  Edited By Mee09

@khael: Correction. You are not making any real points here no offense. I personally believe a lot of the fight scenes in Naruto look ridiculous. Despite how much I like the series. Hardly anything they do is realistic in terms of actual combat. And personally favor the original Dragonball's fight choreography more than anything I have seen in Naruto. But that doesn't make it have factually better choreography. That's purely a personal opinion.

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Khael

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#20  Edited By Khael

@mee09: Realistic or not is irrelevant, this is a fictional match-up.. Exactly, we're just stating our opinions here, no points were made. I would be happy to counter your case if you have one. I'm too lazy to make the first move.

Choreography is the only thing that determine skill imo. What else?

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Khael

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Meh, you edited your posts

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XLR87T3

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Goku loses at round 1. He has been long proven to be worse at martial skill than Superman because #pressurepoints, so if he can't even outdo that then Naruto destroys him with one move.

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Mee09

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#23  Edited By Mee09

@khael: I tend to do that a lot lol. Yes it's a fictional matchup. But this a skill based thread.

If you slowed down their movements to our level most of the Naruto characters would fight like complete idiots. They wouldn't be able to possibly do all the flips and acrobatics they do mid combat because they need their stats to do it. They aren't using real skill when doing those acrobatics. Most of their H2H "skill" is all stats. Most of those characters don't even have form or an actual fighting stance without a weapon. Even with a weapon Goku has shown more skill with the Powerpole than any other weapon dependant Naruto character.

If you did the same to Dragonball characters people would think they are even better fighters than what we give them credit for now. We could actually see even more of the actual martial arts and techniques that they are using.

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Mee09

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@xlr87t3: You have got to be kidding me. Naruto is one of the most stat dependent characters in the series. He has never out fought someone with his H2H skill alone. He had to rely on his wits with a combination of ninjutsu.

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Thedarkpaladin

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Naruto doesn't even have to make contact with him to win:

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Mee09

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#26  Edited By Mee09

@thedarkpaladin: That's not skill LOL

See this is exactly what I am talking about. Come on man I can't be the only Naruto fan on this site that knows what actual H2H combat skill and martial arts is.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@mee09:

I never said it was. Not that he needs much skill to defeat Goku, a character who has been relying on speed and strength since the beginning of Dragon Ball.

But by all means, do enlighten us on your definition of skill.

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Mee09

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#28  Edited By Mee09

@thedarkpaladin: He needs all the skill in the world to hold a candle to Goku. Naruto can't use a Sage Mode enhanced punch here. That has nothing to do with skill. It's a power/ability. If you are going to give him that. Give Goku Kaioken and the rest of his Ki.

In Naruto 80% of what they do in terms of H2H is literally impossible by standard means. It doesn't matter how skilled you are. You would break your bones (specifically legs) attempting most of those movements in an actual fight because you don't have the physicals to do them. Instead of trying to use their opponents force against them. They use their own force against themselves. Gravity would be their or your worst enemy if their moves were effected by actual physics, and they or you, did not have the stats required to do them.

That is not the case with most Dragonball characters fighting styles. Which vary greatly unlike in Naruto. Goku has actually had to outfight people with H2H skill alone plenty of times in Dragonball and even a few notable times in Z. They are starting to bring back this concept in Super. Like in Goku's fight against Hit.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@mee09:

He needs all the skill in the world to hold a candle to Goku.

Based on what? Some skill feats from Goku would be nice.

Naruto can't use a Sage Mode enhanced punch. That has nothing to do with skill. It's a power/ability.

You might want to read the OP carefully. This gauntlet is about testing Goku's skill and only Goku's skill. A Sage enhanced punch directly relates to the conditions which were set by the TC.

In Naruto 80% of what they do is literally impossible by standard means.

Last I checked, the same thing applies to Dragon Ball, and most shonen in general.

It doesn't matter how skilled you are. You would break your bones (specifically legs) attempting most of those movements in an actual fight because you don't have the physicals to do them.

Which movements are you referring to, and why does it even matter here?

That is not the case with most Dragonball characters fighting styles. Which vary greatly unlike in Naruto.

The majority of fighters in DB rely on stats to win a battle. You seldom see anyone win due to sheer skill alone. And are you really trying to say Naruto characters' fighting styles don't vary greatly, but DB characters' do...?

Goku has actually had to outfight people with H2H skill alone plenty of times in Dragonball.

Same with Naruto.

And they are starting to bring back this concept in Super. Like in Goku's fight against Hit.

What skill did Goku show during his fight with Hit? It seemed to me like he relied on Kaio-Ken, a technique that centers around stats.

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Mee09

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#30  Edited By Mee09

@thedarkpaladin: Name the people Naruto has actually had to outfight with shear H2H skill and no Jutsu or massive stat difference. I have never seen this happen. But you could prove me wrong.

Goku was only able to stalemate Hit by literally predicting every single move Hit made before he could make it. Something Vegeta admitted he could not do anywhere near as easily as Goku did. That is skill far above anything Naruto has ever done in his own right. He even knew Hit was holding back. Goku is not the only character in Dragonball that has had to outfight opponents with shear H2H skill either.

The movements that they make in every fight. You can't do a front flip spin kick (doesn't sound like a real attack because it's not. Just the wonders of Naruto H2H) off of somebodies arm who just blocked your attack. Then back flip off of it and land without breaking your leg. You can't kick somebody as hard as possible with your ANKLE and have the attacked blocked and not break your ankle. Something similar to this has happened in the UFC a lot. Specifically to Anderson Silva. Hell Jon Jones literally nearly tore off his big toe because he made a wrong stance shift while beating down some dude in the octagon and didn't even notice. Stuff like this happens all the time in Naruto. I'm amazed there are so many people that don't see this. It's important because those movements shouldn't be used as legit arguments for skill. Those kinds of movements are not possible because of skill.

You need to check again and actually pay attention to what is going on in Dragonball fights. The majority of the styles used and attacks that have to do with straight up H2H are based off of real styles which you can clearly see some of the same kicks and punches in. If you slowed down Dragonball fighting. There wouldn't be any burst fights obviously. But there would be very clear cut punches and kicks that you won't see in Naruto.

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jadenlol

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I change my mind paladin has convinced me he stops at 1.

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XioKenji

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Stops at 1.

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Mee09

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#33  Edited By Mee09

Lol this is the world we live in.

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Thekillerklok

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Goku isn't making it past 7.

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Thedarkpaladin

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@mee09:

Name the people Naruto has actually had to outfight with shear H2H skill and no Jutsu or massive stat difference. I have never seen this happen. But you could prove me wrong.

You don't seem to understand that this gauntlet is only about Goku's skill, but to address your inquiry anyway:

Here we have Sasuke fresh out of the academy giving Kakashi, a jonin with a massive stat advantage some trouble. Kakashi even goes so far as to give him praise for his skill.

He later shows his skill against the demon brothers, two chunin who also outclass him in stats.

Goku was only able to stalemate Hit by literally predicting every single move Hit made before he could make it. That is skill far above anything Naruto has ever done in his own right. He even knew Hit was holding back.

You're forgetting that Goku was only able to accomplish this because he had prior knowledge on Hit's technique. You may as well compare that to Naruto taking down Pain. Regardless, Hit was still able to overwhelm Goku to the point where he needed to use Kaio-Ken to gain an advantage.

The movements that they make in every fight. You can't do a front flip spin kick (doesn't sound like a real attack because it's not. Just the wonders of Naruto H2H) off of somebodies arm who just blocked your attack. Then back flip off of it and land without breaking your leg.

You do understand that real world physics don't always apply to works of fiction, yes? You also can't make after images of yourself or shoot pretty little lasers from the palm of your hands like they do in Dragon Ball, and last time i checked, you certainly can't do this:

You can't kick somebody as hard as possible with your ANKLE and have the attacked blocked and not break your ankle. Something similar to this has happened in the UFC a lot. Specially to Anderson Silva. Hell Jon Jones literally nearly tore off his big toe because he made a wrong stance shift while beating down some dude in the octagon and didn't even notice. Stuff like this happens all the time in Naruto.

Yet, you think stuff like that doesn't happen literally all the time in Dragon Ball?

I'm amazed there are so many people that don't see this. It's important because those movements shouldn't be used as legit arguments for skill. Those kinds of movements are not possible because of skill.

Again, you seem to be ignoring the fact that 99% of the fights in Dragon Ball follow the exact same concept.

You need to check again and actually pay attention to what is going on in Dragonball fights.

You should really follow your own advice.

The majority of the styles used and attacks that have to do with straight up H2H are based off of real styles which you can clearly see some of the same kicks and punches in. If you slowed down Dragonball fighting.

Show some examples then. If you want to bring up the way the animators choreograph the fight as an argument, it's not going to work very well for you:

Loading Video...

Loading Video...

There wouldn't be any burst fights obviously. But there would be very clear cut punches and kicks that won't see in Naruto.

...I'm really starting to question whether you've actually read/watched Naruto.

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Mee09

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#36  Edited By Mee09

@thedarkpaladin: That showing with Sasuke is exactly what I am talking about. Do you really think skill had anything to do with his movements against Kakashi there? Name style of martial art that Sasuke used there. Ive never seen any real martial art or fighting do anything like that. Because it is impossible and impractical. That's all stats and acrobatics with a bit of skill and reaction. I have literally seen everything in that post. I've watched Part 1 at least 10 times. I've seen all of Part 2 so far and a bit after.

Look if you want to live your life thinking that Naruto is a better martial artist and more skilled fighter than Goku. Be my guest. I am not going to stop you. Some people clearly favor flash over actual quality.

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Thedarkpaladin

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#37  Edited By Thedarkpaladin

@mee09 said:

@thedarkpaladin: That showing with Sasuke is exactly what I am talking about. Do you really think skill had anything to do with his movements against Kakashi there? Name style of martial art that Sasuke used there. I have literally seen everything in that post. I've watched Part 1 at least 10 times. I've seen all of Part 2 so far and a bit after.

You think Sasuke giving a jonin who massively outclassed him at the time trouble has nothing to do with skill? Sasuke didn't use any real world martial arts in that instance, but it's honestly irrelevant to this fight. What you should be doing is showing some of Goku's skills. Name a single fight Goku has won because of his skill.

Edit:

Look if you want to live your life thinking that Naruto is a better martial artist and more skilled fighter than Goku. Be my guest. I am not going to stop you. Some people clearly favor flash over actual quality.

You seem rather upset about a battle over fictional characters. It's not that serious...

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Mee09

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#38  Edited By Mee09

@thedarkpaladin: I am talking about the actual attack. Not the strategic planning of it.

You really want me to name fights Goku has won or forced his opponent to power up against because of his skill? It's not going to make any difference to you. None of my posts have proved anything to you. Nor do you wish awknowledge the literal impossiblilty to do said moves with skill alone which the thread is based off of. If I do it I am literally going to waste even more of my life. I feel like it would be trying to punch down a house.

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Thedarkpaladin

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#39  Edited By Thedarkpaladin

@mee09 said:

@thedarkpaladin: I am talking about the actual attack. Not the strategic planning of it.

Just because there wasn't any real world martial arts involved doesn't mean the attack didn't show skill. You are literally nitpicking irrelevant details, while ignoring the main point of this thread - Goku's skill.

So, i'll ask once more: Name a single fight that Goku has won due to his skill.

Edit:

You really want me to name fights Goku has won or forced his opponent to power up against because of his skill?

Please do.

It's not going to make any difference to you. None of my posts have proved anything to you. Nor do you wish awknowledge the literal impossiblilty to do said moves with skill alone which the thread is based off of.

As I've told you once before, this thread is about Goku's skill alone, as stated clearly in the OP, and none of your posts have proven anything because you haven't made an actual attempt to show Goku's skill, which is really what this thread is based on...

If I do it I am literally going to waste even more of my life. I feel like it would be trying to punch down a house.

Yeah, i'm sure. Which is why you came to this thread with the intention of making a case for Goku in the first place... I mean, it's your job to provide evidence to support your argument after all...

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Mee09

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#40  Edited By Mee09

@thedarkpaladin: I haven't ignored Goku's skill in the slightest. I've even mentioned an instance where Goku used his H2H skill to outfight and outreact an opponent who was not only stronger than him and and figured out Hit was holding back. But he could also control time.

I will go ahead and name some instances. Where Goku either won because of it or made his opponent have to power up/break their own rules. My life will be wasted and you are still going to think Naruto is a better Martial artist and more skilled fighter than Goku lol. I'm 110% sure of it.

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Thedarkpaladin

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#41  Edited By Thedarkpaladin

@mee09:

I haven't ignored Goku's skill in the slightest. I've even mentioned an instance where Goku used his H2H skill to outfight and outreact an opponent who was not only stronger than him and holding back.

You mean the fight where Goku was relying on Kaio-Ken? I didn't see any real world martial arts from Goku, or anything at all which would suggest he is more skilled than Naruto characters.

No Caption Provided

In fact, just look at his most recent fight with Beerus and Black. There was hardly any skill involved.

Edit:

Let me know when you make edits.

I will go ahead and name some instances. Where Goku either won because of it or made his opponent have to power up/break their own rules. My life will be wasted and you are still going to think Naruto is a better Martial artist and more skilled fighter than Goku lol. I'm 110% sure of it.

I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that you wont be able to find a single fight Goku has won off skill alone, and you would be seldom to find him using any real world martial arts. In fact, where was his skill on Namek when he was getting humiliated by someone who never even trained a day in his life?

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Mee09

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#42  Edited By Mee09

@thedarkpaladin: You know what? I actually had a gigantic post made with organized scans and details for each character and fight. But I just deleted all of it. Want to know why? Because it would be truly pointless to post it. It is all too clear that no matter what I do, say, or post. I could've grabbed an author statement and you probably still would have testified it. I can guarantee you 100% that your claim of Goku not winning any fights because of his skill is entirely false and Goku has stalemated opponents more powerful than him on more than one occasion because of his skill too. Black commented that Goku's fighting style improved him btw.

Let me just address the Frieza statement as well Frieza didn't humiliate Goku until he powered up to the point that Goku couldn't compete. Even when he was being stomped. Goku's skill with Kaioken allowed him to take many of Frieza's attacks without sustaining too much damage. Before then. Goku was assumtively stalemating Frieza and showed that he was the more skilled fighter out of the two. It's not really fair to bring that up either. Final Form Frieza was massively stronger and faster than Goku. Do you really think Naruto would have won that fight?

To address the Naruto gif that is actually a pretty neat showing for Sasuke that seems more skill dependant.

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Zetsu-San

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#43  Edited By Zetsu-San

@mee09: So... You took the time to write up a huge post, scans and everything... Then proceeded to toss all that, time spent, down the drain; citing that it would be pointless to post... Then took extra time to write another 2 paragraphs? Logic...

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Mee09

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@zetsumoto: It would have ultimately been a waste of space. It doesn't matter how much effort you put into a post if the person you are trying to... "Convince" (I say this lightly because I couldn't convince him even if he wanted to be) is that adamant and gives none of the other characters credit.

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Thedarkpaladin

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#45  Edited By Thedarkpaladin

@mee09:

You know what? I actually had a gigantic post made with organized scans and details for each character and fight. But I just deleted all of it.

No Caption Provided

Want to know why?

Not really, but I'm sure you're going to tell me anyway.

Because it would be truly pointless to post it. It is all too clear that no matter what I do, say, or post.

But you have yet to do, say or post anything that pertains to Goku's h2h skill in the first place....

I could've grabbed an author statement and you probably still would have testified it.

I'm more interested in actual showings, like what I've been posting, but whatever works for you.

I can guarantee you 100% that your claim of Goku not winning any fights because of his skill is entirely false

For the record, it's not I'm saying Goku is completely devoid of skill. Just that he doesn't seem to rely on it in any of his fights. This is made apparent during his fight with Freeza.

and Goku has stalemated opponents more powerful than him on more than one occasion because of his skill too.

Like?

Black commented that Goku's fighting style improved him btw.

This is true, but Black hasn't really shown much in the way of skill himself, at least not when it comes to real world martial arts, which, to me is understandable in fiction.

Let me just address the Frieza statement as well Frieza didn't humiliate Goku until he powered up to the point that Goku couldn't compete.

Even before Freeza powered up, he seemed to have a slight advantage over Goku. Considering the fact that they were both fighting each other with a similar power, and Freeza had never trained in his life, Goku should have been dominating him, at least until Freeza powered up.

Even when he was being stomped. Goku's skill with Kaioken allowed him to take many of Frieza's attacks without sustaining too much damage.

This is because Kaio-Ken was increasing his stats.

Before then. Goku was assumtively stalemating Frieza and showed that the was the more skilled fighter out of the two.

Not really. Freeza definitely had a slight upper hand even before increasing his stats. He even went so far as to fight Goku with no hands for a short time.

It's not really fair to bring that up either. Final Form Frieza was massively stronger and faster than Goku.

I was only bringing up the beginning of the fight because they seemed to be at a relatively equal power level. Of course I don't expect Goku's skill to matter once Freeza powered up to 50%...

Do you really think Naruto would have won that fight?

It's obvious that Naruto would have lost, but I'm not saying stats don't play major part in his verse as well.

To address the Naruto gif that is actually a pretty neat showing for Sasuke.

Yeah, I have a few more if need be, but it will have to wait until tomorrow.

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Thedarkpaladin

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#46  Edited By Thedarkpaladin

@mee09 said:

@zetsumoto: It would have ultimately been a waste of space. It doesn't matter how much effort you put into a post if the person you are trying to... "Convince" (I say this lightly because I couldn't convince him even if he wanted to be) is that adamant and gives none of the other characters credit.

That's kind of funny coming from you, since you were so adamant about proving Goku's superiority to everyone who said he stops at one. You even went off-topic and talked about Naruto characters having no real world skill/technique while not actually bothering to show any for Goku...

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utkanflash

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#47  Edited By utkanflash

Current Naruto is pretty great about skill wise.

He trained by Kakashi, Jiraiya, Fukasaku, Killer Bee

These guys are better H2H combatant than Goku ı think.. Goku is strong and fast but those skills only works on Flashy DBZ Universce...

And if he can beat the Naruto ı think he stops at Neji..

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XLR87T3

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@mee09 said:

@xlr87t3: You have got to be kidding me. Naruto is one of the most stat dependent characters in the series. He has never out fought someone with his H2H skill alone. He had to rely on his wits with a combination of ninjutsu.

Doesn't matter. Pressure points 2 OP pls nerf.

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With all stats equal and no energy blasts, Goku isn't getting past Neji

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Lol at him beating Kenshiro in skill. Get real.