Exclusive Solicit Reveal: INVINCIBLE IRON MAN #1 & INFAMOUS IRON MAN #2

@doc-holiday: Is it a coincidence that the white male characters who are currently using other people names aren't getting hate?

Except for the fact that while you like those characters it doesn't make them great. I even like Kamala Khan but it doesn't improve the mediocre to even terrible sales figures those characters have seen.

And in my opinion, Sam Wilson Cap is a terrible series; the dialog fills so many pages and the writing is heavy handed and poor.

October 2015 Sales figures:

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2015/2015-10.html

Sam Wilson Cap Issue Number One made it to only spot 31 with 62,535 in sales, losing to Astonishing Ant-man and Dr. Strange in their first issues as well for their new series

Issue 2, if you scroll down, made it to the 52nd spot with even worse sales figures at 40,224

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2015/2015-11.html

Issue 3, from the November sales figures, did even worse making it to the 78th spot with 33,984 in sales

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2015/2015-12.html

By Issue 4 it is already floundering at the 89th spot with 29,512 in sales and it really doesn't pick back up from there until they finally do that funeral issue and then the sales drop on the next issue after that

I am not going to look them all up, you can if you like but the point is that the sales are generally mediocre and do not reflect enjoyment by the public but I'll use Ms. Marvel sales figures, a character I like, to prove my point as well;

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2014/2014-02.html

Issue 1 didn't do too bad, made the 24th spot with 50,286 in sales

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2014/2014-03.html

Then issue 2 comes out and it's already losing steam at the 42nd spot with 38,357 in sales

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2014/2014-04.html

Issue 3, spot 55 with 37,140 in sales

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2014/2014-05.html

Issue 4, spot 59 with 34, 839 in sales

Fun fact, that link for issue 4 of Ms. Marvel also shows the sales figures for Issue 1 of Miles Morales Ultimate Spiderman and they are Spot 36 with 45,864 in sales...not very impressive

Such as?

@doc-holiday: Barry Allen and Wally West are both Flash right now, Dick Grayson is Nightwing when Superman had that name before, Jonny Storm is the Human Torch, Hal Jordan 'cause the whole GL Corps didn't exist for 19 years after Alan Scott, Jason Todd as Red Hood, and Flash Thompson until Marvel Now.

And so is Jay Garrick, it's always been accepted that there are multiple people called Flash.

You seem to be misunderstanding name vs pandering. There have been multiple Robin's, DC is notorious for name-sharing. Marvel however is shoving aside, moving spotlight or killing off (in the case of Hulk) major characters to have them swapped with characters of a different race/gender.

Oh and I saw you mentioned Downing as Spawn (a while back), so let me just take that bullet out of the gun for you...because if you read Image you'd known Al Simmons is back and has been for several issues now;

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=56127

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/spawn-250/4000-478758/

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/spawn-251/4000-486190/

The first Human Torch, by the way, was an android that appeared decades before the ideas of the Fantastic Four ever did.

Jason Todd re-purposed the name of an enemy into the name of a hero

Alan Scott is still the Green Lantern and he carries the Starheart, which is connected to the GL Corps but in a much older way also, Green Lantern is a title/position held for members of the corps; Lantern Jordan, Lantern Stewart. Alan Scott called himself that because he fashioned his first object, the original source of power, into the shape of a train lantern.

Grayson chose the name Nightwing because he was inspired by Superman

Marvel however is not known for having multiples of the same character name and DC hasn't shamelessly replaced all of their heaviest hitters and best selling heroes with characters of a different ethnicity/gender. Instead, if they did make anyone new they existed alongside the hero but in their own series like the new Asian Superman.

DC also has given better support to its non-white male characters by giving them their own series and even changing classic line ups, like how Cyborg, years ago, went from being a Titan to a League member. Cyborg is also getting his own series in rebirth, along with one of my favorites, the Blue Beetle.

@doc-holiday: I'm misunderstanding nothing. I do read Image Comics and knew Al was back. When he was replaced nobody complained about it as much as they do now. Miles became Spider-Man to honor Peter who died and people still complained same goes for Kamala even though Carol hasn't used the name in years. People still complain about Miles as if Marvel is pushing Peter to a corner even though Peter has three titles, one he shares with Deadpool. Odinson has been appearing in the current Thor comics so he wasn't gone and is getting his own series soon, people are still complaining. Riri isn't called Iron Man people still find something to cry about but say nothing about Doom.

Doesn't matter if DC has a history with given multiple characters the same name when a minority characters or female gets same name they get trashed on. Even Mosaic who isn't a legacy and isnt taking over someone elses series some people complained "why not focus on the minority heroes they already have instead of making new ones?" Which Marvel are. Black Panther has a series after years, the Ultimates are mostly minorities and women, Kamala has a series, Miles has one, Cho, and so on.

If DC announced either a white guy or minority was going to to be the next Batman after something happened to Bruce or is inspired by him while he's still active, which do you think will get the most hate?

@chaosinc: Dude, I am not concerned with the plights of "SJWs" and "Feminist" when it comes to this. I am neither for or against those people, matter of fact ATM I'd rather just pretend that part of the internet drama doesn't exist. All I'm saying is that I have had a conversation with a fan (and yes I can confirm they were a real fan), that they would've been fine just calling Riri "Iron Man" because "LOL comics are weird and silly". And all I was saying in response was "that's too weird and silly for me".

I've read all of them actually (Amadeus Cho being the only exception). With the exception of Kamala Khan, who has her own powers and is only taking up a name that Carol left behind, they're all pale imitations of their predecessors. But at least Sam Wilson was Falcon. Yeah, a lame superhero but the Civil War movie proves Marvel didn't even try to make him any useful besides being Aquaman of the Skies.

Wrong, wrong, and disagreed. Most characters in fiction aren't meant to represent a group, they're meant to further the story and give it a unique spin/perspective. These characters aren't original, these characters don't give any real perspective and these characters are just there so the folks at Marvel can check the diversity box and get some free press. Falcon is already established, Miles has been established for years now, Kamala Khan is more of an actual legacy character, but she's starting to become annoying considering Marvel keeps shoving her everywhere, and she isn't that good of a character compared to Wally. Amadeus Cho is the literal definition of bland diversity clone, same with She-Thor. Wally is generally considered the best Flash since he had the best stories and had more time to shine, while none of these characters are as good as their predecessors and are just there to fill some diversity agenda.

Definitely agree with this.

Hmmmmm....now things are getting interesting :)

Can't wait to read it. Seems as if there's one particular thing about Riri that people seem to be hung up on that makes people dislike her, I wonder what it is? Anyway, she's a new junior hero, it's only a matter of time before she joins a team. I can see her being on the new Champions.

@shinobi62676: Well said.

@knightsofdarkness2: I don't mind Kamala very much, in fact, when her series started I liked it a lot but Marvel has time and again gone out of their way to unnecessarily pander rather than show support to existing or develop new characters.

The other issue that seems to come up is parity and yet the discussion is always "there are too many white characters" when people choose to ignore that when these characters; Superman, Batman, Captain America, Iron man, etc. were made, America was majority white in an even larger majority then.

https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2012/11/117.jpg

According to the Pew Research center, in 1960, when many of the most famous Marvel characters were made, America was 85% white and yet there is some expectation that there should have been more non-white characters? Why? Why is it wrong that any form of media represent that majority of its community?

It's also strange that those new characters or changed characters who are pushed to the forefront are in fact not in parity with how America is now anyhow. How many black super heroes are there? How many have their own series and are pushed up as more popular? Why are there so few Hispanic super heroes when there are more Hispanic people than black people? Currently America is about 63-65% White, about 16% of America identifies as Hispanic however 53% of them also identify as White or White Hispanic as they are known. This makes the total white population of the United States as approximately 71-73% white, so with a majority White and second majority Hispanic why are there so many famous black super heroes but so few Hispanic?

@doc-holiday: Doesn't change the fact that the majority of superheroes are still white. Just chill out, and enjoy the comics for what they are. I'm a black guy, and I've been reading comics for years. Doesn't bother me that most of the stories I read feature white protagonists. It's something I've accepted as the norm. And I don't have a problem with some of the younger generation of heroes being minorities, just giving new readers someone they can relate to.

I was being hyperbolic actually to state a point of the actually disparity when people complain about race or gender parity and ignore demographics.

I have characters I love and don't care about their race. I just don't want to see characters of any particular category; race, gender, sexual orientation, created solely to fill some niche market but rather to be created from a place of creativity. It's how interesting characters remain and the bland are either eliminated or relegated to spots in the back. Kind of why until recently Ant-man hasn't exactly been the most favorite super hero. Shrinking has never really been anyone's favorite power.

Have they answered how she got her hands on the stuff to build her suit? I mean, she is 15, right? Going to MIT, lets assume on scholarship since she is supposed to come from a pretty hard background, so I assume she isn't rich. So, speaking as someone who went to university, how does a 15 year old acquire the equipment to build a combat ready cybernetic super suit with weapons and flight capability? Furthermore, how does she build it within her dorm room?

With Reed Richards in his younger days he had a private lab, government backing and with Spider-man he worked out of his garage and worked within the limits of a small budget so how does she pull it all off?

@doc-holiday: Yeah. Right now, she seems too perfect, which can sometimes be a bit jarring. I think what most writers do when writing minorities is try to make them as perfect as possible by avoiding stereotypes, which is why most black superheroes are boy scouts. Black Panther, Blue Marvel, Falcon, John Stewart, etc, they're all too perfect, and hardly relatable, I'll admit. Comic book logic is something I hate delving into, since the impossible happens in those universes all the time. I wish I had the answer, maybe we'll find out how she was able to reverse engineer his armor when the book drops. Don't tell me you're not the least bit interested.

I wouldn't be asking if I weren't interested. I just hope it's interesting and not something lazy like she just happens to be smarter than everyone else on the planet. Super genius sometimes feels like a lazy excuse for a lot of stuff.

Doom even admitted in one comic that his suit wasn't as advanced as Iron Man's and his magic not as strong as Dr. Strange but he combined the two to be more powerful than both of them. So if one of the worlds smartest humans with amazing magic can't do what Tony Stark can, it's hard to believe anyone else could either.

As for the perfection/boy scout effect, I agree, it's why I prefer Image comics when it comes to some characters, they don't mind making them dark, gritty or imperfect, it makes them interesting.

Although John Stewart has been improved upon by some writers, sometimes being given a darker story or some quirks that make him more interesting, like his military career making him more accustomed to a shoot first mentality compared to Jordan or Rayner.

But including characters of different races is the definition of a unique spin/perspective. On average people of different colors grow up in different neighborhoods, come from different cultural backgrounds, have different opportunities, and are generally treated differently. All of these are differences are ripe for original and compelling stories. If the character goes against trends and is not culturally or ideologically different than their white counterparts, the public will assume that they are anyway. That leads to plenty of avenues for a story.

Plenty of people read comics for the costumes, powers, and fights. Those are not my primary concerns. I am more interested in characters and character interactions. I love Marvel because they create characters who are grounded. I love Spider-Man because of the personal struggles he went through with poverty and being raised in a single-guardian household. I love Captain America, because he is a person out of his own time, trying to build a new life while not sacrificing the morals he developed in his former life. I love Iron Man because of his redemption stories; first making amends for creating weapons of war, and then his recovery from alcoholism. I love Khamala because she has to navigate the worlds of both her immigrant parents and her American peers. I love Sam Wilson more than ever, because now I have seen him struggle to represent a country that is growing evermore fractured despite a portion of the population who denies him as such a symbol. These new characters (and old characters placed into new roles) are all very consistent with Marvel's legacy of creating compelling characters.

What makes Wally the best flash in an objective sense? Nothing. He represents the favorite Flash of many people, but not all. I doubt he is even the favorite of a majority. For some people Jane Foster is their favorite Thor, for some people Miles Morales is their favorite Spider-Man, and for some people Riri Williams might one day be their favorite Iron Man. Let people have the choice. If these characters are as underdeveloped and unpopular as you claim, then they won't be around 5 or 10 years from now anyway.

@NukeA6:

Well, thank you for actually giving the characters a chance before developing an opinion. Not everyone can say that. Still, what you have is an opinion. One shared by many others, but not by everyone, and not by me.

I never claimed they were great. Great is subjective. I claim that they are every bit as legitimate as the white male legacy characters that came before them. Sales also is not an indicator that I feel comfortable with for determining greatness. Event comics, despite being some of the most rushed and uninspired comics around always sell in the top 10. What is notable is that almost all of the characters we are talking outsell the amazing books that Image is putting out. A large part of that is because the name on the cover sells issues, regardless of the character behind the mask. That is why Marvel does this rather than making dozens of completely new characters, and it is a sound business decision. No one is saying that you shouldn't be able to hate a character that Marvel creates or decision that Marvel makes. But my hate or your hate is not a legitimate reason for Marvel to stop the presses and cater to our every whim. What I take away from your examples is that there are over 30 thousand people in the US alone who appreciate these characters and are willing to support these characters with the money that they earned.

Doom as Iron Man might be good (always loved me some Doom).

But Riri as Iron Man (or Iron Heart) is just wierd.

They'll probably do a bunch of extra mantle passes until all mainstream heroes are either black, female or hispanic at some point. There seems to be more demand for more black superheroes than hispanic ones in the media as well. Interesting question though.

Culture/enviroment are really the only interesting viables concerning race. Personality, capability, memorability are all valid aspects that actually define the characters in meaningful ways. There's barely any actual compelling stories to be told referring to a character's race. Almost all these characters are relatively bland and unmemorable, except for Kamala, X-23, Miles and Falcon (granted the later 3 have been established for years).

Falcon as Captain America was a mediocre choice. He doesn't bring anything new to the table other than playing second fiddle to Rogers. The whole symbol thing is just biased and honestly kind of pathetic. Nick Spencer has a history of being a heavy regressive liberal, making Red Skull look like an exagerrated version of Trump and demonizing anti-immigration viewpoints, shoving his biased and unrealistic take on politics everywhere etc. Falcon is a victim of his own writer, used as a tool to pander to specific, extremist political demographics and SJWs instead of actually telling a compelling story. He's blander than he has ever been, in a status quo that completely misuses his character and paints a hilariously distorted view of politics and the modern world to stroke his writer's own inflated ego. Kamala Khan is an interesting character, but she's too overused and I like her character for different reasons than you do. Miles is interesting due to his personality and character interactions, not because of his race/background, and I would vastly prefer if he had his own identity instead of being "the other Spider-Man".

Dude, are you serious? Wally West has arguably the most interesting character arc of them all. After Barry Allen's heroic sacrifice, he was forced to grow up quickly to assume his mantle. He had the most development, he frequently appeared in other media over the other Flashes, he was more flawed than Barry, he was the most capable, he had the best stories, he had the most interesting dynamics etc. None of these characters come close to Wally, at all. Most of them are downright shallow and inferior to their previous incarnations, heck, all of them are except for maybe Kamala. He's frequently cited as the best Flash, with Barry being the only one to even come close to Wally in terms of votes.

For some people, but not the majority. I've never seen anyone like any of them more than their predecessors. What did Jane Foster even do to be considered better than Odinson?

@knightsofdarkness2: I think Marvel wont risk changing too many at this point. While they can always do the simple 'universe reset' where everything returns to the point before any major changes; Spider-man One More Day and the like, I feel that they're hoping that forcing these characters into the spotlight and holding others hostage within major events will force readers to either buy certain comics or be left wondering about their favorite heroes. I've posted time and again the mediocre sales of these mantle pass characters from Sam Wilson to Miles Morales, none stand up to the classic and yet their comics persist despite making less than a third (or worse) in sales compared to more popular characters and often not even starting at such, their first issues (the mantle passes) all start relatively well but quickly lose readers by the 2nd or 3rd issue. This shows bland writing, inability to maintain readership and simply poor character design (in a literary sense, though possibly an artistic sense, some people do base judgments on how comics look as they are visual media). Sam Wilson is the best example as it's had consistently mediocre sales which only picked up for a single issue, The Funeral Issue, then immediately plummeted back to their spot of mediocrity.

Marvel has also flooded the market, making numerous comics, multiple times and stories; Invincible Iron-man, Infamous Iron-man, Spidey, Miles Morales Spider-man, etc. etc. this is also a poor decision as flooding the market can cause greater disinterest. New readers may not want to have to buy 3 or 4 comics to maintain a following of their favorite character, which returns to my point of characters being held hostage; Civil War, New Champions and then the solo stories of all these heroes make it so on average a comic reader, new or old, would need to purchase at least 3 comics per character to maintain a following of the events surrounding said character.

Your arguments are well put together, but they ignore all of the points that I have been contending from the beginning. You not finding something compelling does not mean that it is not compelling in an objective sense. Arguments and opinions are not facts, and "shallow", "inferior", "best", and "pathetic" are all words that have no substantive value.

Just because something is not the majority does not mean that it has no value. And the "greatness" of a character who has been around for 20 years cannot be judged in the same way as one that has been around for 5 years.

I've responded to pretty much every single claim that you've made. You have given me zero objective reasons for why the characters are actually good, just stating that you like them for their character interactions and struggles, to which I responded they were either useless and didn't bring anything new to that specific identity, like Falcon, were better off as their own character, like Miles, or were overused, like Kamala, or borderline bland and insultingly shallow, like Cho, and their race has very little to do with their character other than fullfilling some political agenda and pandering to extremist political demographics, and you did achknowledge that Marvel did indeed have a political agenda after all. That, and are their character dynamics really that much better, especially when practically all their predecessors had more to work with and had much more interesting interactions?

None of them have done anything worthwhile as their respective identites to make anyone care about them, really. You literally stated these characters were every bit as good as their white male counterparts and as legitimate as Wally West, a point you haven't elaborated on and one which you are already backpedling on.

Yes, it does, especially when the overall level of actual critical reception these characters have garnered from fans has been overwhelmingly negative. You might like Bucky as Cap more than Steve Rogers as Cap, but the general populace doesn't. That, and there's literally no objective reason to actually like any of them compared to their predecessors.

Just because I've used subjective words here and there, doesn't mean my entire argument is subjective, especially when I was describing how hollow these characters have been so far, characters you once claimed were on par with their predecessors, regardless of their date of origin. Also, arguments can't be objective? How does that even make sense?

Also, you criticise my argument for ignoring your counterpoints (something I did not infact do) yet you didn't actually answer my question: What did She Thor do to be considered better or on the same level as Odinson?

Actually, that is a very compelling argument. People tend to get bored of constant major events, especially when most of them are completely useless, like how they keep killing off major characters but bring them back like a year later. I have zero interest in getting any of the "RIP *insert important character that got killed off in Civil War 2* books because of this, because I know it won't last and they'll pull off the same thing 5 years later. All these unnecessary tie ins are making it impossible to follow any Marvel event in any meangingful way without killing your wallet with a knife. They'll revert to the regular status quo eventually, but the quality of their titles as of late are rather disappointing. I still think they can fit in more mantle passes here and there, and then resort to a status quo revert, however.

I don't think Marvel cares that much about comic sales anymore, especially thanks to the MCU films being breakout hits. They seem to care a lot more about media PR and good press. Also, I'm getting a little peeved at all the constant pandering Marvel does to extremist left-wing groups. It's getting out of control.

@knightsofdarkness2: I agree, I wish they wouldn't politicize comics so much. It's fine to mention current events but these heroes are meant to be above it all and yet they are getting pulled down into petty squabbles. DC has been, for the most, above it all compared to Marvel but even they aren't bulletproof in that respect.
Although DC hasn't needed to jam brand new characters with the exact names (and sometimes powers) as previous ones because they have been committed to diversity without pandering. If you have a chance, the new Blue Beetle series just started (a favorite of mine) and I really like it, it's interesting and they've got the old Beetle working with the new. I also recommend Batman Detective Comics, it's great.

As for sales, I somewhat agree since comic sales no longer make or break Marvel in a big way since they have the backing of Disney and now it's more about merchandise which is what I feel like they're treating their comics as.

@knightsofdarkness2: I never claimed that they are objectively good characters. There are those among the group that I don't even like. What I said was that there is no objective difference in the inherent quality of the diversity legacies to any legacy heroes who came before. All these words and neither of us have come any closer to understanding the other. No point in continuing this.

So they give her own name. Cool, now she look like original character and not cheap replacement. But still, they coudnt changet more about her. Like her name. Riri realy sound like name for a dog.

I would support Doctor Doom's title if they would have just called it Doctor Doom. Why tf is he calling himself Iron Man? Just name the comic Doom or something man. Can't lie tho...I'll probably still give it a try because Doom.

Marvel is sucking right now. Big time.