Power NeXus vs Decoy Elite debate: Toad vs Kraven the Hunter

" @Power NeXus: Time of day?"

"I assume I can't give my opinion, right? lol  Eh, I'm sure you know what it is anyway :) "

" I assume I can't give my opinion, right? lol  Eh, I'm sure you know what it is anyway :) "

" @k4tzm4n said:

" I assume I can't give my opinion, right? lol  Eh, I'm sure you know what it is anyway :) "

see? our debate only had one post,but this one already got a randon dude (K4tzm4n) posting  :`O "

" @Matezoide said:

" @k4tzm4n said:

" I assume I can't give my opinion, right? lol  Eh, I'm sure you know what it is anyway :) "

see? our debate only had one post,but this one already got a randon dude (K4tzm4n) posting  :`O "

That's because this fight involves Kraven(K4tz has a man crush on Kraven) "

Kraven only really needs to get in close to Toad and then it's all over for Toad. Kraven's just a much better fighter at close range and has the physical stats to hang with Toad.  

Kraven will most likely begin the fight by trying to sneak up on Toad, which thanks to all the cover and Kraven's own skills shouldn't prove to difficult. 

" @Matezoide said:

" @k4tzm4n said:

" I assume I can't give my opinion, right? lol  Eh, I'm sure you know what it is anyway :) "

see? our debate only had one post,but this one already got a randon dude (K4tzm4n) posting  :`O "

That's because this fight involves Kraven(K4tz has a man crush on Kraven) "

"@k4tzm4n said:

"I assume I can't give my opinion, right? lol  Eh, I'm sure you know what it is anyway :) "

GO AWAY. I don't need you giving him any help. It will be hard enough as it is. (and that, by the way, is what she said). "

 I'd like to believe I can keep an open mind ;)  

"@Decoy Elite said:

" @Matezoide said:

" @k4tzm4n said:

" I assume I can't give my opinion, right? lol  Eh, I'm sure you know what it is anyway :) "

see? our debate only had one post,but this one already got a randon dude (K4tzm4n) posting  :`O "

That's because this fight involves Kraven(K4tz has a man crush on Kraven) "

That's an understatement :O  
 
But despite being one of my favorites, I'd like to believe I can keep an open mind ;)
 
@Power NeXus said:

"@k4tzm4n said:

"I assume I can't give my opinion, right? lol  Eh, I'm sure you know what it is anyway :) "

GO AWAY. I don't need you giving him any help. It will be hard enough as it is. (and that, by the way, is what she said). "

:(   "

" @k4tzm4n:

 I'd like to believe I can keep an open mind ;)  

 
 No, no you can't.....wait, i 'm talking to k4tz......Yes, yes you can.... 
 

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

=P

"

" @spidey 15 said:

" @k4tzm4n:

 I'd like to believe I can keep an open mind ;)  

 
 No, no you can't.....wait, i 'm talking to k4tz......Yes, yes you can.... 
 

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

=P

"

shut up and check my thread against Decoy Elite :D "

" @Matezoide said:

" @spidey 15 said:

" @k4tzm4n:

 I'd like to believe I can keep an open mind ;)  

 
 No, no you can't.....wait, i 'm talking to k4tz......Yes, yes you can.... 
 

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

=P

"

shut up and check my thread against Decoy Elite :D "

LOL, I have already checked it. =] "

" @Matezoide: Should i do it? =P "

" @Matezoide: SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

 LOL

"

" @spidey 15:  good  now post on the thread   i lied >:) "

" @Matezoide said:

" @spidey 15:  good  now post on the thread   i lied >:) "

LOL Too lazy. =] "

" @spidey 15 said:

" @Matezoide said:

" @spidey 15:  good  now post on the thread   i lied >:) "

LOL Too lazy. =] "

D`: "

Right I have to quote then edit, so give me a sec.
@Power NeXus said:

" @Decoy Elite:

Getting in close isn't necessarily an easy win for Kraven. Toad is comparable to classic Beast in terms of physical stats and fighting skill, and Beast once did very well fighting Kraven in close quarters (I could have sworn I had the scans, but I can't seem to find them).  

Staying hidden for very long may prove difficult, even for Kraven. The map is generally pretty open. There's not really a million places Kraven could hide. And Toad can use his jumping to move quickly around the battlefield while getting a semi bird's eye view of the place. 
 

IMO, Kraven's best chance is to tag Toad with a spear or a poison dart or something before being spotted. If Toad sees Kraven before getting hit, I don't see it going well for Kraven. Toad's jumping and wall-crawling will let him move around much faster than Kraven, and pretty much control the fight. Toad has way superior long-range capabilities (tongue, adhesive spit, caustic spit, wind breath) and sufficient reflexes and agility to avoid getting hit by Kraven's distance weapons. If the fight goes to close combat, I can still see Toad being able to handle himself. His physical stats are virtually equal to Kraven's, except for superior strength in his lower body.

 The only reason Kraven does well in his fights with Spider-Man is because Spidey almost always pulls his punches, and he has a fighting style that Kraven has studied in depth. Toad has a fighting style all his own (and Kraven doesn't have prep time to study it), and he doesn't pull his punches. I can see Kraven landing plenty of hits in close combat, but if Toad connects with a solid jackhammer kick I don't think Kraven could really stand up to it.

I can see this fight being similar to Toad's fight with Wolverine. Kraven has the potential to win, but he will likely underestimate Toad, and he won't be prepared for the plethora of random powers Toad can pull out of his sleeve (Kraven's mind: Oh, ok. A super-athlete. I can handle that... Wait... he has a super tongue too? Ok, I'll be watching out for that.... oh, and slime balls. Didn't see those coming..... now they're caustic slime balls? WTF? How many powers does this guy have anyway??..... OH COME ON! Wind breath too?? Gaaaahhh!!!)  "

Wouldn't Toad be more likely to underestimate Kraven? I mean, Kraven's just a human after all. Why should he go all out? Also...
 

--Both combatants are told whom they are fighting, but are given no more info or prep time ('cuz Kraven is a beast when he has prep)

So what Kraven's just told he's fighting a guy named Toad? Either way he'll still be prepared for Toad's agility(the name kind of gives it away) while Toad won't really know  just what he's dealing with.  Kraven isn't Wolverine, he doesn't hold back his skill and he doesn't have morals keeping him from getting in a quick kill.

" @Decoy Elite: I never stole anything from you. I found that from Google. =p "

So much I want to say..

" @spidey 15 said:

" @Decoy Elite: I never stole anything from you. I found that from Google. =p "

Curse you Google! "

" So much I want to say.. "

" @geraldthesloth said:

" So much I want to say.. "

For or against me? Actually don't answer that, I already know you'd wipe the floor with me in a debate. "

" @Decoy Elite said:

" @geraldthesloth said:

" So much I want to say.. "

For or against me? Actually don't answer that, I already know you'd wipe the floor with me in a debate. "

You're not bad..we're equal as far as i'm concerned. I was referring to the Kraven vs Beast fight where Beast pounded Kraven into the dirt. "

" @geraldthesloth said:

" @Decoy Elite said:

" @geraldthesloth said:

" So much I want to say.. "

For or against me? Actually don't answer that, I already know you'd wipe the floor with me in a debate. "

You're not bad..we're equal as far as i'm concerned. I was referring to the Kraven vs Beast fight where Beast pounded Kraven into the dirt. "

Well crap. >.< Oh well it's not like Toad is as skilled as Beast. "

Good luck the both of you!

Classic Beast defeated Classic Kraven. 
 
However(!), Beast's ability to operate effectively minus a limb allowed him to adapt in combat (Kraven used a nerve strike).  Also, Kraven only had a belt tusk as a weapon, and Beast won once he literally went feral.  
 
But yeah, Beast won :(

Did Beast win? Anyway, Kraven was able to beat down freakin' Vermin(who had previously taken on Cap and Spidey at the same time) so Toad's physical stats won't cause him too many issues, especially when you consider he took out Vermin unarmed.

Kraven's expertise is sneaking tactics. The man is able to sneak around New York pretty well. Besides, there's plenty of cover(like the maze for example.)

But wouldn't Kraven hit Toad the majority of the time? Or he could get Toad's attention and then lead Toad to a different part of the battlefield and then ambush Toad. Remember, Kraven has heightened senses so it's almost guaranteed that he'll find Toad before Toad finds him.  

 Toad's fighting style while unique is similar to other character's fighting styles, such as Beast(who you just said Kraven's fought before) and Spider-Man. He relies mostly on his superior agility to avoid opponents getting solid hits on him(mostly because last time I checked he has normal human durability). Oh and while Spider-Man does have a habit of holding back, he doesn't hold back when it comes to agility and dodging so Kraven still should posses the skill needed to tag Toad. Kraven's durabilty is actually quite high, able to take hits from Spider-Man(who while holding back is still quite strong) and Vermin(who didn't hold back at the time to my knowledge) 

Wouldn't Toad be more likely to underestimate Kraven? I mean, Kraven's just a human after all. Why should he go all out? Also... 

So what Kraven's just told he's fighting a guy named Toad? Either way he'll still be prepared for Toad's agility(the name kind of gives it away) while Toad won't really know  just what he's dealing with.  Kraven isn't Wolverine, he doesn't hold back his skill and he doesn't have morals keeping him from getting in a quick kill.

k4tzm4n pretty well explained what happened in the fight. Kraven disabled one of Beast's arms with a nerve strike, but Beast still proved capable of being in close combat wit Kraven with only three limbs working. 

 When did this happen?

The maze could provide some cover, but Toad is most likely going to be jumping around quite a lot to try to find Kraven. He'll be looking at most of the battlefield from about 3 stories up. There aren't many places on that map where someone can hide from an enemy looking for them from above. This is a much smaller and simpler arena than New York.

Kraven might be able to hit Toad IF he attacks before Toad sees him and IF Toad is within range (spears and blow darts don't have THAT good of an effective range). 
As for getting his attention, leading him on, and ambushing him... the hiding places in this map just aren't that extensive. Once Toad sees Kraven, the whole stealth factor is gone. Toad can move around the map faster than Kraven can, and there just aren't THAT many places to hide.  

In reference to Toad's fighting style, I was just saying that Kraven has studied Spider-Man's fights to the point that he is very good at predicting what Spider-Man is going to do next. He has never met Toad before, so he won't have that advantage here. 
As for agility, Toad isn't very far behind Spider-Man. In the early X-Men comics, it was said that Beast was the only one who could match Toad's agility, and Beast is among Marvel's top tier agile people. 
As for Toad's strength... I've often thought his handbook rating of 3 tons (not very high above peak human) in his lower body is inaccurately low. Toad has sufficient leg strength that he can propel his own body several stories in the air from a standing position. He doesn't have many feats that I've seen involving full force kicks, but with that kind of leg strength he should theoretically be able to shatter concrete. I could probably use a few rough estimations and the equations from my physics class to give a rough esitimate of how much force he can generate with a kick, but I don't feel like doing more homework right now. To sum that up, Toad should theoretically be able to pretty much kick normal humans in half. Those of slightly superhuman strength (like Kraven) might be able to tank his kick, but it would take quite a toll on them.  

It's been a long time since Toad was part of any radical mutant supremacy group. He's gotten around more since those days, and I wouldn't really expect him to still be the type who's still racist and condescending to all non-mutants.  

 Kraven might be able to predict the jumping and the tongue, but there's no way he's going to be ready for all the other random powers. And Kraven is a fairly straightforward opponent. Basically a skilled fighter/athlete with a variety of stone age weapons. You can guess most of what you need to know about him just by his appearance.

When did this happen?

But there's still plenty of cover in the maze, as long as Kraven hides in the bushes. Anyway, even if Toad spots Kraven then he'll just try one of his long ranged attacks(which Kraven would most likely avoid) and then Kraven knows about said attack plus he can then lead Toad towards an ambush.

Ah, but just because he can move around faster doesn't mean Toad can really take down Kraven. He could try attacking from long range, but honestly Kraven should be able to close the gap rather quickly(remember Toad's range can be rather limited as well).

I don't think Toad would land such a kick to be honest. Kraven's very agile in his own right and trying to pull off such an attack would put Toad in range of Kraven's spear. Which Kraven could full well one shot him with. 
Also Kraven has studied animals and how to hunt them his entire life, he's very good at adapting to instinct based styles(such as Toad's)

Well Kraven's not one to underestimate opponents so :P

Not really, Kraven doesn't look nearly threatening as he actually is. Seriously, looking at him would you expect that he can give you a horrible beat down? The name doesn't give a clue either. Kraven's going into this with an edge in knowledge due to Toad's name IMO. 

My sincerest apologies for taking this long to reply, good sir :) 
School and sleep still take precedence over Comicvine time. 
Anyway... 

I've only seen the scans, so I don't know the story arc or why it was happening. All I can tell is that it was some time back in the X-Men's early days, since Beast still looks like a norman person in the scans (I am still trying to find them. I could have sworn I had them saved somewhere).  

Kraven could hide in the bushes, but it still might not take Toad too long to find him. The hedge maze is pretty much the only really good hiding spot on the map. After a quick scan of the area, Toad could pretty easily figure out that, if he's hiding, he's probably in the bushes. 
Toad has a good variety of long range attacks (adhesive slime spit, caustic slime spit, tongue, wind gusts, pheromones on tongue). Using one attack won't let Kraven know about all of them. 
I still don't see how an ambush is even possible if Toad has already seen Kraven. Ususally an ambush goes like 1) get your enemy to spot you, so you can lead him in a certain direction. 2) disappear. 3) pop out of an unexpected place and catch your enemy by surprise. Kraven wouldn't be able to manage step 2. Once Toad knows where Kraven is, Kraven won't be able to disappear again. The map is just too open for that. 

In most fights, the person who can move around faster is often the one who controls where the fight goes. If Toad wants to keep the fight at close-but-not-melee range, he can do that. If Kraven tries to close the gap, Toad can jump around and keep the gap open just as easily. That's the advantage of having superior mobility.  

I don't think Toad would land such a kick to be honest. Kraven's very agile in his own right and trying to pull off such an attack would put Toad in range of Kraven's spear. Which Kraven could full well one shot him with. 
Also Kraven has studied animals and how to hunt them his entire life, he's very good at adapting to instinct based styles(such as Toad's)

As close range weapons, spears are effective against animals, or normal humans who don't have impressive speed or agility. Against Toad, however, a spear just wouldn't be the greatest weapon. It is only effective when used with a straight forward thrust. Using a spear for any kind of slashing or hacking motion will just be clumsy and stupid. Anyone with superhuman agility could easily avoid a spear thrust, and anyone with superhuman strength could easily break the wooden part. Heck, Toad could even use his tongue to grab the spear and disarm Kraven in a second. And if Kraven still tries to hold on to the spear, that just makes it worse for him. Toad's tongue is strong enough to very easily support a few hundred pounds of weight (I think Wolverine is supposed to be like 300 lbs with adamantium, and Toad tongue-lifted him without difficultly). If Kraven holds on to the spear when Toad tries to take it away, he will probably find himself getting flung through the air. 
Any skilled fighter is good at adapting to the fighting styles of others. I was just making the point that Kraven can hang with Spider-Man only because he has spent TONS of time studying every aspect of Spidey's fighting style. He still has this general advantage over Toad, but not to anywhere near the degree he has it in his fights with Spider-Man.

Kraven does have quite an ego, and will probably think of Toad as his inferior just when he hears the name. "I'm the most skilled hunter in the world. He's just another animal. Plus... Toad? Come on. That's not even a cool or dangerous animal. I've totally got this fight."    

After all his time hanging out with eccentric mutants like Blob and, well heck himself, I would think Toad knows better than to judge an enemy by appearance. And plus... yeah, I kinda would expect Kraven to be able to give a good beatdown. Rippling muscles, handlebar moustache, lion's mane vest... he might look kinda strange, but his appearance doesn't exactly say "I'm a pansy". As for the name... it kinda depends on whether Toad is told "Kraven" or "Kraven the Hunter".     idk. 

Ah, that one story where Kraven fights the classic X-Men. Still Beast only one because he had an advantage that Toad lacks not to mention it happened long ago and Kraven's only gotten better.

Okay, so maybe Kraven could 1. pop up and then 2. Lead Toad to the maze. Then suddenly things are much more close up and personal. 
Most of those "long range attacks" you mention are more medium range than long range. (Except maybe wind gusts or pheromones as I've never seen them used)

Kraven's still rather quick and his experience against Spider-Man(the champ of mid-air fighting) should give him the edge when it comes to forcing Toad into a close up match or simply tagging him midair. 

On the subject of the tongue, couldn't Kraven slice it off with his knife? I guess the spear might not work, but Kraven could use the spear thrust so that Toad grabs it and then slice his tongue off and then blitz him. 

When has Kraven underestimated an opponent?

Let's just agree that the name thing doesn't really matter. :P 

I'm still not sure if we're thinking of the same fight. I know of two times when Kraven battled the classic X-Men. Once was in the Spider-Man and X-Men team-up series that involves Mr. Sinister and XRaven, ect. That's a different fight from the scans I saw (which I just now found! yay!)   

I suppose that could be a viable strategy. However, fighting in the maze wouldn't be completely to Toad's disadvantage. If he wants to get away from Kraven, he could hop over those walls as easily as walking. 
I have a scan of Toad using the wind gusts. I don't have any scans, or even know of any examples, of him using the pheromones. I've only ever heard about them in online/handbook biographies. For the sake of this fight, let's just forget Toad even has pheromones, since I have no freaking idea how they work or how potent they are. :/  

That's because Spider-Man's only distance attack is his webs, and he doesn't use them in brawls that much anyway. Spider-Man prefers to get right up close and use his fists in pretty much every fight. Toad has more options than that. As for tagging him in mid-air, that would still be rather difficult to do, even for Kraven. Ever since the beginning, Toad's fighting style has involved copious amounts of jumping around. Since he's not dead yet, we can assume he's gotten to be pretty dang good at it.  

Slice it with a knife?... I don't know. Even on normal humans, the tongue is the strongest muscle in the body.  Toad's is enhanced to the point that he can lift several hundred pounds with no apparent effort. I would assume that with that insane strength would also come some pretty insane durability. I just can't see Toad's tongue being easily sliced by any standard material blade. 

When has Kraven underestimated an opponent?

Well, he underestimated Spider-Man for quite a while. Even though Spider-Man was physically superior in every way and won all of their fights (as far as I remember), Kraven was still obsessed with proving his superiority, which he only did by ambushing Spidey, shooting him in the face, and burying him alive.

  Yeah, we were kinda splitting hairs there. It probably wouldnt effect the outcome of the fight.       My scans usually get messed up when I try to put them in the middle of a post, so I'm going to put all scans in a completely separate post.     " 

Post them now! Lol, but seriously I don't see how they effect this fight.

But then he's just gotten away from Kraven for the time being. 

While tagging Toad may be difficult, I think Kraven's fast and skilled enough to pull it off.

Alight, just checking. So I guess the spear is out of the question(Kraven wouldn't be foolish enough to try and keep holding it.

Actually he considered Spider-Man the greatest hunt and was obsessed with beating him to prove that he(Kraven) was truely the greatest hunter. Oh and you forgot to mention him dressing up as Spider-Man and beating down Vermin(which Spider-Man was unable to do before) 

The main point was that Toad is generally comparable to classic Beast in terms of physical stats and fighting skill, and Beast has already shown that he is capable of handling himself in close quarters with Kraven, even with one of his arms disabled.  

Which is a good thing to do if Toad wants to keep from spending too much time in close quarters. 

Do you know of any feats Kraven has of tagging super-agile people in mid-air?  

Agreed.  

  Ok. I guess the whole underestimation thing is sort of a moot point. I suppose they both have the potential to underestimate each other a little bit, but that probably wouldn't be a really major factor in how the fight goes down. Pretty much anyone (who isn't a certifiable dumba$$) will have a healthy respect for their opponent once the fight gets going.    

Scan cluster f&*$:
 
Against Vermin:

What if his legs get disabled? Hmm? (He uses footwork more than Beast so Kraven's more likely to go for the legs). Anyway, the problem is that fight happened quite a while ago, and Kraven only got better with time. Also, Toad isn't as skilled as Beast IMO.

True, but Kraven only needs to take him on close up for a bit to get more of an edge(by taking out Toad's limbs via nerve strikes or getting in some good hits with his knife)
 

I agree to your agreeing. 

epic debate is epic