I think Elektra wins.If it's h2h only I don't know if that excluded chi techniques or things like that but I think Elektra is skilled enough to take Cheshire.
Chesire has trained with the same sensi as Black Canary and Lady Shiva, and I think she is on/close to Black Canary's level of skill. Elektra on the other hand apperently has her mind powers of some sort presumably taught her by the Chaste or Hand.
Interesting match. I can't wait to see someone make a case for Chesire!
"
I don't know enough about elektra and I don't have enough on Cheshire..... I heard she beat the teen titans, anyone have scans? "
IIRC she has and beat a few top DC martial artists too. I will look for some stuff. "
Ringing out Deathstroke is pretty good though "
He's in his blue suit, I'm pretty sure he's de-powered there. "
Normally yes, but she just gave him back his powers earlier in that issue (don't ask me how) I can show you the scan though let me dig it up and I'll edit my post with it
She doesn't have many showings without being armed.But she rarely uses anything but melee weapons..her sais.I don't doubt her hands are just as effective.
If it says "just hand to hand" and Cheshire isn't even allowed to use poison nails, I think its safe to assume that the OPer wasn't aware of Elektra's mind powers and didn't mean for them to be part of this battle.
" If it says "just hand to hand" and Cheshire isn't even allowed to use poison nails, I think its safe to assume that the OPer wasn't aware of Elektra's mind powers and didn't mean for them to be part of this battle. Lets not take the easy way out here. ;) "
" If it says "just hand to hand" and Cheshire isn't even allowed to use poison nails, I think its safe to assume that the OPer wasn't aware of Elektra's mind powers and didn't mean for them to be part of this battle. Lets not take the easy way out here. ;) "
So then who wins? "
Dunno. I'm waiting for you or Gambler to convince me. Nighthunter may know too but I don't.
I just don't want to hear "brain powers" when there is a perfectly good debate to be had without them. ;)
" If it says "just hand to hand" and Cheshire isn't even allowed to use poison nails, I think its safe to assume that the OPer wasn't aware of Elektra's mind powers and didn't mean for them to be part of this battle. Lets not take the easy way out here. ;) "
So then who wins? "
Dunno. I'm waiting for you or Gambler to convince me. Nighthunter may know too but I don't. I just don't want to hear "brain powers" when there is a perfectly good debate to be had without them. ;) "
" I think Elektra wins because of her speed and quick knockout techniques. "
Speed isn't going to be an advantage for Elektra. In fact I actually believe Cheshire's reaction speed is greater then Elektra's. She defeated Jesse Quick while in handcuffs and has dodged Deathstroke on a couple different occasions. She's even dodged Starfire's energy blasts at point blank range as well as dodging her punch (the discoloration of Starfire is nothing more then the result of it being an old comic. Dont want anyone thinking she was poisoned at the time. This fight takes place in "The New Teen Titans Annual #2". You can check it out in its entirety to verify my statement). You may be quick to call the Jesse Quick fight PIS, but I would submit that she doesn't fight as fast as she runs. But that is purely speculation on my part. I have no problem disregarding it and simply using her other reactionary feats to prove that Elektra's speed/reflexes would not be a problem.
I have never seen Cheshire use pressure points or quick knock out techniques, but she's faced and defeated (or stalemated) characters who have. Nightwing being one example. She's also a triple jointed acrobat which allows her to strike, and or dodge, in unique and creative ways. She can create unconventional angles. I'd have to say that Elektra probably has a slight advantage in the skill department, but its my believe that Cheshire's acrobat prowess makes up for it. Black Canary has labled her the second best assassin in the World behind Lady Shiva. Of course this is just her opinion but coming from a accomplished martial artist such as BC has to carry some credibility. I think Cheshire's reflexes and ability to strike from unconventional places gives her enough of an advantage to take Elektra out.
" I think Elektra wins because of her speed and quick knockout techniques. "
Speed isn't going to be an advantage for Elektra. In fact I actually believe Cheshire's reaction speed is greater then Elektra's. She defeated Jesse Quick while in handcuffs and has dodged Deathstroke on a couple different occasions. She's even dodged Starfire's energy blasts at point blank range as well as dodging her punch (the discoloration of Starfire is nothing more then the result of it being an old comic. Dont want anyone thinking she was poisoned at the time. This fight takes place in "The New Teen Titans Annual #2". You can check it out in its entirety to verify my statement). You may be quick to call the Jesse Quick fight PIS, but I would submit that she doesn't fight as fast as she runs. But that is purely speculation on my part. I have no problem disregarding it and simply using her other reactionary feats to prove that Elektra's speed/reflexes would not be a problem.
I have never seen Cheshire use pressure points or quick knock out techniques, but she's faced and defeated (or stalemated) characters who have. Nightwing being one example. She's also a triple jointed acrobat which allows her to strike, and or dodge, in unique and creative ways. She can create unconventional angles. I'd have to say that Elektra probably has a slight advantage in the skill department, but its my believe that Cheshire's acrobat prowess makes up for it. Black Canary has labled her the second best assassin in the World behind Lady Shiva. Of course this is just her opinion but coming from a accomplished martial artist such as BC has to carry some credibility. I think Cheshire's reflexes and ability to strike from unconventional places gives her enough of an advantage to take Elektra out. "
Ok, when it comes to DC street levelers. I almost think the things they show with reaction time applies against people who have speed way beyond what they should be able to comprehend. For instance, Wildcat has shown on several occasions to be able to grab or attack Flashes while running, yet against street levelers, he never shows to have any time of reaction time advantage over them. They have no problem landing shots and doesn't dodge them all that easily, if at all. I don't know enough about Cheshire to know if she has those conflicting consistencies but judging by the fact it applies to so many others. I don't doubt it.
Now, I'm not discrediting Cheshire's reaction time. I'm going to agree with she is faster in reacting than Elektra. I still think that Elektra is the better fighter though. Nightwing as far as I know isn't as skilled as Elektra with the use of pressure points and nerve strikes. In comparison with Daredevil, Mantis, and Gamora's feats using those techniques as apposed to other characters who use them. There is definitely proof that there is different levels of understanding of these techniques. I vaguely remember Cheshire's fight with Nightwing.Refresh me.Did Nightwing actually try and use those type of attacks against her?
Cheshire's acrobat prowess? You are aware Elektra has beaten Daredevil more than once right? He's possibly the best human acrobat in the Marvel U. How strong is Cheshire? Elektra is incredibly durable for a human female.
" Ok, when it comes to DC street levelers. I almost think the things they show with reaction time applies against people who have speed way beyond what they should be able to comprehend. For instance, Wildcat has shown on several occasions to be able to grab or attack Flashes while running, yet against street levelers, he never shows to have any time of reaction time advantage over them. They have no problem landing shots and doesn't dodge them all that easily, if at all. I don't know enough about Cheshire to know if she has those conflicting consistencies but judging by the fact it applies to so many others. I don't doubt it. Now, I'm not discrediting Cheshire's reaction time. I'm going to agree with she is faster in reacting than Elektra. I still think that Elektra is the better fighter though. Nightwing as far as I know isn't as skilled as Elektra with the use of pressure points and nerve strikes. In comparison with Daredevil, Mantis, and Gamora's feats using those techniques as apposed to other characters who use them. There is definitely proof that there is different levels of understanding of these techniques. I vaguely remember Cheshire's fight with Nightwing.Refresh me.Did Nightwing actually try and use those type of attacks against her? Cheshire's acrobat prowess? You are aware Elektra has beaten Daredevil more than once right? He's possibly the best human acrobat in the Marvel U. How strong is Cheshire? Elektra is incredibly durable for a human female. "
As I was reading your post and your break down about tagging speedsters I couldn't help but think the same thing, only about pressure points. We routinely see characters with extensive knowledge of pressure points utilize the technique against no name random thugs, and or ninjas, etc etc. But very rarely do we ever see them use the same one shot techniques against more skilled opponents. For example Elektra. In her fights against Bullseye, or Daredevil, has she ever used pressure point/nerve strikes? In Cheshire's fights against Nightwing he does not attempt to use nerve strikes or pressure points (as far as I know. What I mean is, there is no narration explaining that he is in fact trying to). However the point remains that characters like Deathstroke, Batman, Shiva, etc etc have all been shown using crazy pressure point techniques but then when they actually fight someone either on, or close to, their skill level, pressure points and nerve strikes seemingly go out the window. Having said all that I have no problem excepting the fact that Elektra would attempt nerve strikes, but I also think do to her speed advantage that it wouldn't be easy and in fact would be more of a gamble trying to exploit an opening for that perfect strike. Its like swinging for the home run ball everytime up as opposed to batting for average (sorry, had to drop a sports analogy).
I'm aware that Elektra has defeated Daredevil, but how much of it was her being a better fighter, and how much of it was Daredevil's conflicted feelings for her? And although I do not believe Cheshire is a better acrobat then DD, the fact that she is triple jointed and can deliver strikes from unorthodox positions cant be overlooked. She can contort her body in ways DD never could. Her acrobatic ability is such that she easily avoided being killed by Deathstroke while having her feet and hands locked down in some sort of metal restraints. Cheshire is.....somewhat durable. I wouldn't say she's more durable then Elektra, but she has some decent feats, taking a beating from Wonder Woman and actually coming back to land a couple shots would probably be her biggest durability feat. She's also highly intelligent. As she displayed when she actually built a gun that could lock onto the Flash's body signature so she could blast him. That's not going to help here obviously, but she does utilize tactics and strategy in her combat. I'd also point out that where Elektra is fond of pressure points and nerve strikes, Cheshire is equally as fond about limbs. She will often times go for someone's knee, ankle, elbow, etc etc. She once jumped Weather Wizard from behind and broke his arm by snapping it reverse style at the elbow.
Like I said above I also believe Elektra is the more skilled (in terms of h2h) then Cheshire, but not by such a margin that Cheshire is completely outclassed. And with her reflexes and triple joints I think she has enough to down Elektra.
" Ok, when it comes to DC street levelers. I almost think the things they show with reaction time applies against people who have speed way beyond what they should be able to comprehend. For instance, Wildcat has shown on several occasions to be able to grab or attack Flashes while running, yet against street levelers, he never shows to have any time of reaction time advantage over them. They have no problem landing shots and doesn't dodge them all that easily, if at all. I don't know enough about Cheshire to know if she has those conflicting consistencies but judging by the fact it applies to so many others. I don't doubt it. Now, I'm not discrediting Cheshire's reaction time. I'm going to agree with she is faster in reacting than Elektra. I still think that Elektra is the better fighter though. Nightwing as far as I know isn't as skilled as Elektra with the use of pressure points and nerve strikes. In comparison with Daredevil, Mantis, and Gamora's feats using those techniques as apposed to other characters who use them. There is definitely proof that there is different levels of understanding of these techniques. I vaguely remember Cheshire's fight with Nightwing.Refresh me.Did Nightwing actually try and use those type of attacks against her? Cheshire's acrobat prowess? You are aware Elektra has beaten Daredevil more than once right? He's possibly the best human acrobat in the Marvel U. How strong is Cheshire? Elektra is incredibly durable for a human female. "
As I was reading your post and your break down about tagging speedsters I couldn't help but think the same thing, only about pressure points. We routinely see characters with extensive knowledge of pressure points utilize the technique against no name random thugs, and or ninjas, etc etc. But very rarely do we ever see them use the same one shot techniques against more skilled opponents. For example Elektra. In her fights against Bullseye, or Daredevil, has she ever used pressure point/nerve strikes? In Cheshire's fights against Nightwing he does not attempt to use nerve strikes or pressure points (as far as I know. What I mean is, there is no narration explaining that he is in fact trying to). However the point remains that characters like Deathstroke, Batman, Shiva, etc etc have all been shown using crazy pressure point techniques but then when they actually fight someone either on, or close to, their skill level, pressure points and nerve strikes seemingly go out the window. Having said all that I have no problem excepting the fact that Elektra would attempt nerve strikes, but I also think do to her speed advantage that it wouldn't be easy and in fact would be more of a gamble trying to exploit an opening for that perfect strike. Its like swinging for the home run ball everytime up as opposed to batting for average (sorry, had to drop a sports analogy). I'm aware that Elektra has defeated Daredevil, but how much of it was her being a better fighter, and how much of it was Daredevil's conflicted feelings for her? And although I do not believe Cheshire is a better acrobat then DD, the fact that she is triple jointed and can deliver strikes from unorthodox positions cant be overlooked. She can contort her body in ways DD never could. Her acrobatic ability is such that she easily avoided being killed by Deathstroke while having her feet and hands locked down in some sort of metal restraints. Cheshire is.....somewhat durable. I wouldn't say she's more durable then Elektra, but she has some decent feats, taking a beating from Wonder Woman and actually coming back to land a couple shots would probably be her biggest durability feat. She's also highly intelligent. As she displayed when she actually built a gun that could lock onto the Flash's body signature so she could blast him. That's not going to help here obviously, but she does utilize tactics and strategy in her combat. I'd also point out that where Elektra is fond of pressure points and nerve strikes, Cheshire is equally as fond about limbs. She will often times go for someone's knee, ankle, elbow, etc etc. She once jumped Weather Wizard from behind and broke his arm by snapping it reverse style at the elbow. Like I said above I also believe Elektra is the more skilled (in terms of h2h) then Cheshire, but not by such a margin that Cheshire is completely outclassed. And with her reflexes and triple joints I think she has enough to down Elektra. "
Sorry it took me so long...
When it comes to using pressure points I can truly say that Elektra, Stick and Daredevil don't just use them to take down thugs and other terrible fighters.Elektra may not use them as frequently on credible fighters but she has.Most notably,Wolverine and Kirigi.As far as I know she's never used them against DD,but then again I have not seen every one of their fights.I have access to more DD than Elektra comics.
I mentioned Elektra defeating Daredevil because she displayed the ability to keep up with him despite him possibly being faster than her and an amazing acrobat.Not to say that she could actually beat him in a straight up fight.Elektra unlike Daredevil has actually trained as an acrobat\gymnast since a very young age.
Do you have any scans of Cheshire's contortionist abilities.I'm not denying she has them I just need to see something to really make a case for them.Elektra has excellent awareness, even without her telepathic abilities. Speaking of attacking from unorthodox positioning.Elektra killed a skrull with Wolverine's claws and fighting skill,plus Reed Richard's ability to stretch, That has to offer some level maneuvering that she's not used to defending against.
Elektra is also quite the tactician being shown to break into high security facilities and escape from them without much issue.She once even broke into the X-Mansion and kicked the crap out of Polaris.Elektra doesn't go for limbs.She wants to kill as quickly as possible or seriously injure her opponent. Without weapons, she usually goes for the neck or the stomach..soft spots. As far as limbs go though, like DD, Stick taught her to shut things off. Like striking a nerve in the arm to keep the opponent from using it.
I don't think Cheshire is outclassed but I think Elektra has enough of a skill advantage to pull out a win.
" Cheshire! She is known as the second most deadliest assassin. Very close to Lady Shiva who could kick Elektra's ass. "
Second most deadliest assassin is just a label.Doesn't make it actually true. Also I have never seen anything to suggest she is very close to Lady Shiva.
" When it comes to using pressure points I can truly say that Elektra, Stick and Daredevil don't just use them to take down thugs and other terrible fighters.Elektra may not use them as frequently on credible fighters but she has.Most notably,Wolverine and Kirigi.As far as I know she's never used them against DD,but then again I have not seen every one of their fights.I have access to more DD than Elektra comics. "
Yeah, it doesn't really matter who she's used them on, I was just curious. Its an advantage for her no doubt. I've yet to find anything suggesting that Cheshire utilizes pressure point and or nerve strikes. Personally I think any martial artist with limited skills would have the basic knowledge required to execute nerve strikes, but that's purely speculation on my part. Since Cheshire's main offensive weapon is her poison nails, its really not that surprising she doesn't have any pressure point/nerve strike feats. But I'm confident in saying that she is skilled enough to at least avoid being tagged with one right away. Obviously the longer the fight goes on the greater the risk of her getting tagged with a potential fight ending blow. Edit: I actually found a scan of what appears to be her one shotting one of her teammates. Whether or not it was a nerve strike I can not prove for there is no mention of it in the scan.
My pimp hand is strong b!tch
@Vance Astro said:
" I mentioned Elektra defeating Daredevil because she displayed the ability to keep up with him despite him possibly being faster than her and an amazing acrobat.Not to say that she could actually beat him in a straight up fight.Elektra unlike Daredevil has actually trained as an acrobat\gymnast since a very young age. Do you have any scans of Cheshire's contortionist abilities. "
Cheshire has also defeated characters above her ability level, most notably Deathstroke. He's stronger, faster, and most likely more acrobatic then she is and yet she was still able to take him down. I dont have any scans that artistically showcase her contorting her body, but I do have a couple relevant scans.
"Expert Triple Jointed Acrobat, which allows her to move in ways most people couldn't dream of" Now before you dismiss this scan as simply being what Black Canary says, I'd point out that unlike her "statement" in which she proclaims Cheshire the second best assassin in the World behind Shiva, this comment is actually more then a statement, its a visual observation.
"Cheshire is like Picasso..ALL strange angles and huge impact" Now I understand as far as the actual scan goes, Cheshire isn't depicted as doing anything that any other common martial artist couldn't do on the regular. But I think the point was to focus on Canary's description and not so much the artists interpretation.
@Vance Astro said:
" Elektra has excellent awareness, even without her telepathic abilities. Speaking of attacking from unorthodox positioning.Elektra killed a skrull with Wolverine's claws and fighting skill,plus Reed Richard's ability to stretch, That has to offer some level maneuvering that she's not used to defending against. "
What do you mean by "excellent awareness?" Like its hard to sneak up on her? Or she can sense when somebody is about to attack like Spider Sense? I guess what I'm asking is how does this benefit her in this particular fight? If they're both starting off across from one another and can see eachother, then I wouldn't suspect awareness would make much deference. But just in case, here's an awareness feat for Cheshire. She's watching Deathstroke and Roy Harper fighting when all the sudden she gets speed blitzed from behind by Jesse Quick. Mind you her feet and hands are on lock down. Yeah Jesse diminishes the feat somewhat do to the fact that she says something. However she's still in motion and Cheshire still shows some impressive reactionary speed.
@Vance Astro said:
" Elektra is also quite the tactician being shown to break into high security facilities and escape from them without much issue.She once even broke into the X-Mansion and kicked the crap out of Polaris.Elektra doesn't go for limbs.She wants to kill as quickly as possible or seriously injure her opponent. Without weapons, she usually goes for the neck or the stomach..soft spots. As far as limbs go though, like DD, Stick taught her to shut things off. Like striking a nerve in the arm to keep the opponent from using it. I don't think Cheshire is outclassed but I think Elektra has enough of a skill advantage to pull out a win. "
Cheshire has some of the same feats, breaking into the White House to kill the President, the Titans Tower, using Deathstroke and Jesse Quick to help facilitate her escape. As far as going for the kill is concerned Cheshire is equally as ruthless. I only mentioned the limbs because in this fight she can not use her poison nails, so mentioning any feats in which she utilized them seemed pointless. But I didn't mean to down play her killer instinct.
Four kills in fifty two seconds, and she's not impressed with her performance. Elektra using nerve strikes to keep her opponent from using certain limbs is somewhat the same as Cheshire targeting joints, the end result is the same.
I also believe Elektra is slightly more skilled, but I'm not yet convinced that it is by such a margin that she wins.
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