Zabuza and Haku vs The Sound 5

The Hidden Mist Assassins versus Orchimarus Sound 5.

Rules:

-No Prep. It's a random encounter.

-No out of Character tactics.

-They Have basic knowledge on each other through ninja bounty books.

-Location:The center of a forest with a lake in the center.

-Starting distance 100 feet apart.

- Win by death.

Who takes this victory ?

(If this is a mismatch in favor of the sound 5 though , switch to the sound 4.)

Just double checking - is the Sound 5 with Kimimaro and the Sound 4 without? Been a while since I watched Naruto!

Yeah Sound 5 incorporates Kimimaro.

Sound 4 - The only issue here is Tayuya and her genjutsu. However Shikamaru was able to get around it and considering the level that Zabuza is at I would say he gets past it. The Sound 4 struggled against 2 Tokubetsu Jonin as well being forced to use CS1 IIRC. Zabuza being a former Anbu should solo the four. I would even argue that Haku would solo as well. Hidden Mist + Silent Killing Technique should end all four of them.

Sound 5 - As mentioned I think the Sound 4 are irrelevant so it comes down to Kimimaro. It is much closer but again I dont see Kimimaro having an effective counter to the mist. Without Hidden Mist though it would be a hell of a fight. Leaning towards Kimimaro.

@hiplus: really nice reply , thanks , and anyone else ?

Kimimaro solos.

Kimi solos.

How? He was loosing to kid Lee and lost to kid Gaara. I don't see either of them even coming close to taking Zabuza and Haku on at once.

Sound 5 win this though.

@alextheboss: he was sick he was about to overcome Garra but lost due to his illness also lee was amped with wine.

@jadenlol: Ya, but not sure if that's enough to say he takes both Zabuza and Haku at the same time. Zabuza can arguably win in a 1v1. With Haku's kekegenkai and Zabuza's hidden mist jutsu he will be overwhelmed. Naruto databook have Zabuza and Kimimaru both at 30.5, so they should be in the same league.

Kimimaro solos

@alextheboss: he should be able to do it if he decides grow bones all over the floor he can't avoid that's unless he stands back and spams water style which is out of character for him he's only problem is haku.

@alextheboss said:

He would've killed them both if he hadn't succumbed to illness.

Yep, Kimimaro solos. Haku has no way of hurting him and Zabuza's only chance is to use water jutsu but it's not like Kimi can't avoid it.

Stage 2 Kidomaru can solo

@highaccuser: @jadenlol:

You are underestimating Zabuza. He is about equal with part 1 Kakashi (without using sharingan). His sword can most like break right through the bones. He would loose in a 1v1, but with Haku as back up it's hard to see him being solod by Kimimaro. And like I said, that data book has Kimimaro and Zabuza as equals.

@alextheboss: And who's to say Kimimaro isn't on par with Kakashi without his Sharingan?

Haku can't really do anything to Kimi as KN0 Naruto was too fast for him but Kimi was dancing around KN0 Naruto clones.

Kimi solo, even without him sound 4 still beats Zabuza and Haku.

@thevivas: Did you not read my comment correctly? I said Kimimaro is Zabuza level, who was Kakashi level. That means I'm saying Kimimaro is on Kakashi's level also. I also think he would beat Zabuza 1v1. I'm saying he probably won't beat Zabuza (who is in his tier of power) and Haku at the same time.

Naruto clones are always weaker than the original, so you can't compare them.

Kimimaro solos.

@alextheboss: You just said Kimimaro would beat Zabuza, so he's clearly above Kakashi/Zabuza level.

And no, the clones are only weaker in terms of durability. There's literally nothing to suggest they're slower other than reaching.

@thevivas:

You just said Kimimaro would beat Zabuza, so he's clearly above Kakashi/Zabuza level.

That's not really how Naruto works. Some powers just work well against others. They are all in the same tier. stage 2 Kimimaro could probably beat Kakashi without his sharingan.

And no, the clones are only weaker in terms of durability. There's literally nothing to suggest they're slower other than reaching.

Clone are just meant to be fodder. They always have and they always will.

What has Kimimaro really done to say he can solo? He doesn't even start in his strongest form here and everyone is in character. Zabauza might just use hidden mist jutsu and kill him before he gets a chance to transform.

@alextheboss:

That's not really how Naruto works. Some powers just work well against others. They are all in the same tier. stage 2 Kimimaro could probably beat Kakashi without his sharingan.

So first you claim Kimimaro can't beat Zabuza easily because of databook numbers, then tell me that some powers work well against others? Nice.

Clone are just meant to be fodder. They always have and they always will.

Tell that to the clones that beat the Third Raikage and went toe-to-toe with Madara's Limbo clones.

And still no actual evidence for why his clones would be slower than him other than "well they're fodder"? Good to know.

What has Kimimaro really done to say he can solo?

What was that you said earlier about certain powers work better against others?

He doesn't even start in his strongest form here and everyone is in character.

So? You think it takes him more than a few seconds activate his Curse Mark?

Zabauza might just use hidden mist jutsu and kill him before he gets a chance to transform.

The same Zabuza that couldn't kill Tazuna before Kakashi could stop him? Kimimaro transforms faster than that.

Kimi solo

@thevivas:

So first you claim Kimimaro can't beat Zabuza easily because of databook numbers, then tell me that some powers work well against others? Nice.

Stop strawmanning me. I said the databook proves they are on the same tier of power, not that Kimimaru's powers wouldn't work well on Zabuza. Naruto isn't all about power, but power does come into play.

Tell that to the clones that beat the Third Raikage and went toe-to-toe with Madara's Limbo clones.

That's when Naruto was actually extremely powerful. Also Madara's limbo clones are still clones... How are you going to bring up clones vs clones like that means somethign? Madara's clones are still weaker than his original body.

And still no actual evidence for why his clones would be slower than him other than "well they're fodder"? Good to know.

Lee was able to keep up with Kiimimaro and Lee is slower than angry Naruto. Also Naruto didn't really outspeed Haku. He was still hit by the needles, but pretty much just overpowered Haku.

What was that you said earlier about certain powers work better against others?

So you think he wins because his powers work well on Zabuza? Maybe that's the case, but I haven't seen one person make that argument. I just keep seeing "Kimimaro solos". If you have a power advantage case that's fine, but I haven't seen it yet.

So? You think it takes him more than a few seconds activate his Curse Mark?

OP says in character.

The same Zabuza that couldn't kill Tazuna before Kakashi could stop him? Kimimaro transforms faster than that.

The question is, would he transform in that scenario?

People are underestimating Zabuza and Haku. Kimi edges out Zabuza taijutsu. Kimi could also take this with Dance of the Seedling Fern. However he has no reason to use it right away. Zabuza meanwhile is accustom to using Hidden Mist Jutsu and ghosting people.

Shikotsumyaku is a solid defence and one I am sure Kimimaro would have up in the mist. I still think Zabuza has the striking power to break through and deliver a finishing blow. Haku also is profecient with Silent Killing Technique when using senbon which can avoid Shikotsumyaku and hit a vital spot. Honestly if Hidden Mist jutsu was banned Kimi could solo both Haku and Zabuza. The sound 5 just dont have a viable counter to the Hidden Mist jutsu.

Also thinking about how does Sound 4 starting in CS2 go against Zabuza and Haku without Hidden Mist tech.

@alextheboss:

Stop strawmanning me. I said the databook proves they are on the same tier of power, not that Kimimaru's powers wouldn't work well on Zabuza. Naruto isn't all about power, but power does come into play.

Then can you tell me and the general audience in what categories are they equals? Total score doesn't mean they're in the same tier. Shikamaru could have the same score as Neji but you don't see anyone claiming Shikamaru is Neji's equal.

Unless you can provide the stats that mark them equals, bring databook numbers into this wasn't the best idea.

That's when Naruto was actually extremely powerful.

Shouldn't matter since it's his clone and not him, right? If they were always meant to be fodder, why wasn't that clone fodderized?

Also Madara's limbo clones are still clones... How are you going to bring up clones vs clones like that means somethign?

Because you have absolutely no evidence to support Naruto's clones being slower than the original outside of "they're clones".

Bring some evidence or concede.

Lee was able to keep up with Kiimimaro and Lee is slower than angry Naruto.

A *drunken* Lee was able to surprise Kimimaro due to his unorthodox movements, not solely speed.

And yet Kimimaro was easily able to react to his Lotus blitz.

Also Naruto didn't really outspeed Haku. He was still hit by the needles, but pretty much just overpowered Haku.

Naruto easily dodged Haku's attacks and grabbed his arm before he could travel to another mirror. Clearly outsped him.

So you think he wins because his powers work well on Zabuza? Maybe that's the case, but I haven't seen one person make that argument. I just keep seeing "Kimimaro solos". If you have a power advantage case that's fine, but I haven't seen it yet.

You don't have to explicitly say, word for word, "Kimimaro wins because of his abilities" to ascertain that that's how he wins.

OP says in character

I ask again, so? You think it takes him more than a few seconds to activate his Curse Mark?

The question is, would he transform in that scenario?

Why wouldn't he?

might want to go tell that to naruto. because I'm pretty sure he fought an entire war, taking on numerous top tiers with his shadow clones, half the time with him not even being in that part of the battlefield to begin with, only his clones.

but thats irrelevant.

i believe zabuza + haku could take the sound 4 easy.

the sound 5 with kimi would be a problem, i think kimi could take out haku but i think he would have a problem with zabuza. especially with his silent killing technique, kimi is pretty fast, and pretty powerful, but i still think zabuza takes it, he has more versatility and has a lot more experience then kimi.

ummm....yes zabuza was blocked by kakashi, a Jonin/Ex Anbu sharinagan user who has been shown to be able to keep up with naruto top tiers. k. please explain how kakashi outspending him is a bad thing?

unless you mean to say Kimi is faster then kakashi. which is horribly wrong. if this were kakashi instead of Zabuza it would be a horrible stomp and kimi would take a lighting blade to the face before he could get to his first curse mark release.

so basically

Zabuza < kakashi.

Kimi < kakashi.

this has nothing to show that zabuza is < kimi. the only thing it shows is that they are both slower then kakashi.

i still believe zabuza should take it but it would be difficult for him and haku would for sure die. zabuza would probably take a good amount of damage in the fight.

@chair-sama:

ummm....yes zabuza was blocked by kakashi, a Jonin/Ex Anbu sharinagan user who has been shown to be able to keep up with naruto top tiers. k. please explain how kakashi outspending him is a bad thing?

LOL Land of the Waves arc Kakashi has shown to keep up with Naruto top tiers? Please tell me more. Show me these speed feats from the Land of the Waves that proves Kakashi is so much faster than Kimimaro, or even better yet, speed feats that show he keeps up with Kaguya, Madara, and Toneri level characters that early in the series.

unless you mean to say Kimi is faster then kakashi. which is horribly wrong. if this were kakashi instead of Zabuza it would be a horrible stomp and kimi would take a lighting blade to the face before he could get to his first curse mark release.

Lol no. Not even close.

so basically

Zabuza < kakashi.

Kimi < kakashi.

this has nothing to show that zabuza is < kimi. the only thing it shows is that they are both slower then kakashi.

Wow, that's some logic you got there.

i still believe zabuza should take it but it would be difficult for him and haku would for sure die. zabuza would probably take a good amount of damage in the fight.

They're not beating Kimimaro and Kidomaru, let alone all 5 of them.

the main difference between Land of the waves kakashi and post-time skip is his MS. during the time-skip is the only time he was shown to take time out to train and improve his skills.

now we also know zabuza came back in the ninja was and still somewhat comparable to current kakashi. kakashi even attempted to speed blitz him and haku Still managed to intercept him. so even excluding zabuza, that puts haku pretty high up for speed.

this is also the kakashi that went toe to toe with Obito and fought alone side naruto and sasuke throughout the whole war. the kakashi that took on hidan and kakuza and also fought and nearly killed diedara.

Pre-time skip kakashi has also been shown to be able to keep up with the like of kisame and itachi to an extent, with itachi even mentioning that kisame would not get away uninjured if they both go up against him, which says a lot when it took 7 gates guy take on kisame and kisame having comparable chakra to a tailed beast.

Now lets see. About naruto out speeding Haku, yes he did, this is also a enraged naruto using the kyuubi chakra. this also the same naruto that blocked a massive snake from killing sasuke barehanded. the same naruto that has been shown to grow vastly more powerful and faster with the kyuubi chakra. pre-1tail naruto was able to go from barely being able to fight sasuke to vastly outspending him, to the point where sasuke couldn't even comprehend his speed and probably would have continued to beat him without him developing his third-tomoe in his sharinigan.

@chair-sama:

kimimaro and co were beat by a bunch of genin/chunin. the difference between the genin/chunin and the jonin at this time is so bad its laughable. one of the strongest genie's neji(who was far superior over choji/shikamaru/etc) was speed blitzed by the jonin's with ease.

There's a little thing called context. You should learn what that means.

And who cares if they were Genin/Chunin? The Third Raikage, Juubidara, Kaguya, and Juubidara were beat by Genin, Naruto and Sasuke. You gonna try to lowball the Sound 4 because they were beaten by Genin, at least do a better job of it.

Not to mention they weren't at full strength after having to resort to Curse Mark when they fought the two Jounin leaving Konoha. Another factor your failed to mention.

And then there's the fact that Kimimaro didn't even lose his fight against Gaara and Lee, he died because of a pre-existing illness.

Nice try.

Guy Showed this by effortlessly casting away gaara's sand, with guy and kakashi being of comparible strengths by both of their own admission, as kakashi was able to win 49/50 fights against guy.

Again, reread the manga. At least half of those "fights" were rock-paper-scissors, handstand walks, and various other contests, not just straight up fighting.

That comparison means jack here.

kimimaru was then beat by gaara, and up until his curse mark being used was being toyed with by a drunken lee with no gates released.

Your knowledge of the manga is.....quite lacking. You even posted the fight, yet describe the events that happened incorrectly?

Kimimaro had no trouble with Gaara other than him covering the whole field in sand. He's a close range fighter fighting a long range one. That was the only trouble he had. Lee was a complete non-factor the minute his "Drunken Fist" ran out, which was only relevant because of his unorthodox movements.

Try again.

Lee also caught kimi's blade with his feet while he was half asleep, He couldn't even touch lee. and again this si base lee while not even recovered fully.

Big whoop. Look what happened the rest of the fight.

a few? it took 11-18 seconds to transform. even 11 seconds if you take out his little monologue. and after all that by 14:26 he managed to land a single scratch onto lee's cheek and knock him back.

Nice try, using the anime's version, which shows how the transformation occurs, as a means to downplay his speed. I was referring to when he hardened the bones in his body to save himself from Gaara's Sand Coffin the first and second time. The second time, which he transformed into his Curse Mark V2.

lets face it, this is drunken lee. You also said that he was beat by his unorthodox movements and not by speed.

Please explain why kimi, standing over a passed out lee couldn't even touch him with his bone blade if he is his superior in speed? if he is faster then Lee it should have been a cut and dry ending right there.

Unorthodox. Movements. Kimimaro even says this:

If you don't think Kimimaro is faster than Lee after catching his foot with his ribs when Lee attempted a Lotus blitz, then I don't know what to tell you.

the main difference between Land of the waves kakashi and post-time skip is his MS. during the time-skip is the only time he was shown to take time out to train and improve his skills.

MS, among other things like more speed feats, more stamina/chakra reserves, etc.

You honestly believe Part 1 Kakashi was physically on par with his Post-timeskip self? Oh boy....

now we also know zabuza came back in the ninja was and still somewhat comparable to current kakashi. kakashi even attempted to speed blitz him and haku Still managed to intercept him. so even excluding zabuza, that puts haku pretty high up for speed.

Haku is a complete non-factor. He uses needles, which'll never kill any of the Sound Four, won't catch any of them in his Ice Mirrors, and isn't fast enough to dodge Kidomaru's or Kimimaro's attacks.

this is also the kakashi that went toe to toe with Obito and fought alone side naruto and sasuke throughout the whole war. the kakashi that took on hidan and kakuza and also fought and nearly killed diedara.

So we're applying all of Kakashi's Post-timeskip feats to his Pre-timeskip self now? If that's not the biggest reach I've ever seen..

I said show me speed feats from the Land of Waves arc, not throughout the manga.

Try again.

Pre-time skip kakashi has also been shown to be able to keep up with the like of kisame and itachi to an extent, with itachi even mentioning that kisame would not get away uninjured if they both go up against him, which says a lot when it took 7 gates guy take on kisame and kisame having comparable chakra to a tailed beast.

Kakashi was easily shown to not be on par with Itachi, even in that fight.

And Itachi was alluding to the fact that they would attract the attention of other Konoha Ninja and the intervention of Guy, not that the two of them would have trouble with Kakashi, who Itachi dropped in seconds.

And again, not what I asked. Speed feats for Kakashi as of the Land of Waves, not Post-Chunin Exams.

Now lets see. About naruto out speeding Haku, yes he did, this is also a enraged naruto using the kyuubi chakra. this also the same naruto that blocked a massive snake from killing sasuke barehanded. the same naruto that has been shown to grow vastly more powerful and faster with the kyuubi chakra. pre-1tail naruto was able to go from barely being able to fight sasuke to vastly outspending him, to the point where sasuke couldn't even comprehend his speed and probably would have continued to beat him without him developing his third-tomoe in his sharinigan.

And Kimimaro was able to dance around an army of those clones. Not sure how that was supposed to help your case.

@thevivas:

Then can you tell me and the general audience in what categories are they equals? Total score doesn't mean they're in the same tier. Shikamaru could have the same score as Neji but you don't see anyone claiming Shikamaru is Neji's equal.

Unless you can provide the stats that mark them equals, bring databook numbers into this wasn't the best idea.

Part 1 Neji is a 21 and part 1 Shikamaru is a 19, which makes sense. I don't think these should be deciding factors, I just think they should be taken with consideration.

Kimimaro

Ninjutsu:4 Taijutsu:5 Genjutsu:3 Intelligence:3.5 Strength:3 Speed:4.5 Stamina:4.5 Handseals:3

Total: 30.5

Zabuza

Ninjutsu:4.5 Taijutsu:4.5 Genjutsu:2.5 Intelligence:3 Strength:4 Speed:4 Stamina:4 Handseals:4

Total: 30.5

Shouldn't matter since it's his clone and not him, right? If they were always meant to be fodder, why wasn't that clone fodderized?

Naruto's clones were still weaker than the main body and characters like Madara. His clone barely even beat the 3rd raikage. Also the less clones that are used the stronger they are if I remember correctly. If he only uses a couple clones they will still be pretty strong. Naruto made way too many clones against Kimimaro. There has to be a downside to that many clones. If there wasn't that would mean Kimimaro is hundreds of times stronger than Naruto, which obviously isn't the case.

Because you have absolutely no evidence to support Naruto's clones being slower than the original outside of "they're clones".

Bring some evidence or concede.

Kimimaro didn't really speed blitz Naruto's clones or anything, he was just way more skilled and one shotting all of them.

A *drunken* Lee was able to surprise Kimimaro due to his unorthodox movements, not solely speed.

And yet Kimimaro was easily able to react to his Lotus blitz.

Which is evidence that it was really Kimimaro's skill that let him evade all those attacks. Right when a strange attack comes at him he can't dodge. If he was really faster by a large amount he would be able to dodge every attack, no matter how strange.

Naruto easily dodged Haku's attacks and grabbed his arm before he could travel to another mirror. Clearly outsped him.

Naruto got a hold of Haku while he was out of his mirrors though. Also Naruto seemed to be putting out more power while fighting Haku than Kimimaro.

You don't have to explicitly say, word for word, "Kimimaro wins because of his abilities" to ascertain that that's how he wins.

I know Kimimaro would use his abilities to try and win, what I'm saying is it should be stated he wins because of his abilities working well against Zabuzas. For example Sasuke beat Deidera because of his jutus type advantage, not because he was necessarily stronger. Do you think Kimimaro's abilities would be really effective against Zabuza's and Haku's fighting styles? Maybe they would be idk.

I ask again, so? You think it takes him more than a few seconds to activate his Curse Mark?

It's not in character for him to go straight to that form.

Why wouldn't he?

^

@chair-sama:

might want to go tell that to naruto. because I'm pretty sure he fought an entire war, taking on numerous top tiers with his shadow clones, half the time with him not even being in that part of the battlefield to begin with, only his clones.

Clones are inferior to the original, but Naruto is so much stronger than everyone at that point even if clones are leagues above them. Also I'm pretty sure it was stated having more clones makes each individual cone weaker, if not then why wouldn't he always just make as many clones as he can?

Sound 5 is being severly underestimated here

Sound 5, Kimimaro can't solo though.

Kimi can solo. Sound 5 definitely win as any distraction+Tayuya genjutsu = win

- 59 wins and counting. 3 tournaments.

War With Words

@darkraiden: He's strong but how can he counter Zabuza's water techniques?

By walking through them. By feats, Gaara's sand is much stronger and he walked through that (being crushed, attacks, etc.), even tanking being buried under 200m of sand

- 59 wins and counting. 3 tournaments.

War With Words

@darkraiden: He's going to walk through the Giant Vortex justu? Why can't they just drown him?

@alextheboss:

Part 1 Neji is a 21 and part 1 Shikamaru is a 19, which makes sense. I don't think these should be deciding factors, I just think they should be taken with consideration.

That was just an example.

Kimimaro

Ninjutsu:4 Taijutsu:5 Genjutsu:3 Intelligence:3.5 Strength:3 Speed:4.5 Stamina:4.5 Handseals:3

Total: 30.5

Zabuza

Ninjutsu:4.5 Taijutsu:4.5 Genjutsu:2.5 Intelligence:3 Strength:4 Speed:4 Stamina:4 Handseals:4

Total: 30.5

Why would we take this into consideration when it states that Kimimaro is better at Genjutsu than Zabuza, when neither of them have shown any sort of Genjutsu abilities whatsoever?

Naruto's clones were still weaker than the main body and characters like Madara. His clone barely even beat the 3rd raikage. Also the less clones that are used the stronger they are if I remember correctly. If he only uses a couple clones they will still be pretty strong. Naruto made way too many clones against Kimimaro. There has to be a downside to that many clones. If there wasn't that would mean Kimimaro is hundreds of times stronger than Naruto, which obviously isn't the case.

1) Naruto's clone "barely even" beating the Third Raikage does nothing to take away from the feat.

2) Doesn't matter if the clones are weaker because you still have yet to prove that they are slower.

3) Kimimaro beating hundreds of clones doesn't mean he would be hundreds of times stronger than Naruto, just that he's fast enough to not get overwhelmed by 100 opponents.

Kimimaro didn't really speed blitz Naruto's clones or anything, he was just way more skilled and one shotting all of them.

He's fast enough to dodge all of their attacks. Haku wasn't.

Which is evidence that it was really Kimimaro's skill that let him evade all those attacks. Right when a strange attack comes at him he can't dodge. If he was really faster by a large amount he would be able to dodge every attack, no matter how strange.

Kimimaro was anticipating Lee's moves, which is why his unorthodox movements through him off. Not to mention Kimimaro had only revealed one bone at the time and didn't want to use another just yet.

Despite that, he replied to the Lotus blitz perfectly fine.

Naruto got a hold of Haku while he was out of his mirrors though. Also Naruto seemed to be putting out more power while fighting Haku than Kimimaro.

Haku's speed is considered to be so great because of his ability to traverse between mirrors, meaning he has to leave one to get to another. It doesn't matter if Naruto caught him while he was out because that's the only time he could grab him.

And of course he did, Naruto never make contact with Kimimaro.

I know Kimimaro would use his abilities to try and win, what I'm saying is it should be stated he wins because of his abilities working well against Zabuzas. For example Sasuke beat Deidera because of his jutus type advantage, not because he was necessarily stronger.

You never gave people the chance to explain why they think he solos because you immediately jumped to the "but he lost to Gaara and Lee" argument.

Do you think Kimimaro's abilities would be really effective against Zabuza's and Haku's fighting styles? Maybe they would be idk.

Haku's needles ain't doing jack to him and he isn't catching him in his Ice Mirrors, so he's a non-factor.

Zabuza's Hidden Mist is countered by the fact that once Kimimaro hardens his bones, Kabuza can't hurt him. And he doesn't have the water available like he did against Kakashi to launch high scale water attacks.

It's not in character for him to go straight to that form.

What else do you think he's going to do once the battlefield gets enshrouded in mist to where he can't see anything?

Kimimaro solos. He's out of their league. They aren't in their league to be taking them on as a group. They could beat any combo of 2, that didn't include Kimimaro, but taking them all on is out of the question unless they start trapped in the ice mirrors and Haku kills off the jump

@thevivas:

That was just an example.

I understand, but that example would only work if it's true. If the databook has stronger characters with higher numbers 99% of the time, I don't see why it can't be taken into consideration. I know it shouldn't be used to decide a winner though.

Why would we take this into consideration when it states that Kimimaro is better at Genjutsu than Zabuza, when neither of them have shown any sort of Genjutsu abilities whatsoever?

Just because they never used genjutsu doesn't mean they can't. Kimimaro having higher genjutsu, and since neither use genjutsu, is actually something that favors Zabuza.

Doesn't matter if the clones are weaker because you still have yet to prove that they are slower.

Maybe they aren't slower, but Kimimaro wasn't even blitzing them, or outspeeding them.

Kimimaro beating hundreds of clones doesn't mean he would be hundreds of times stronger than Naruto, just that he's fast enough to not get overwhelmed by 100 opponents.

No it means he is skilled enough to not get overwhelmed by them.

He's fast enough to dodge all of their attacks. Haku wasn't.

He didn't dodge all of them. I just looked at the manga and all it showed was him blocking a couple, getting swarmed by like 5 of them, and then he stabs them with his bones. Then He pulls his arm bone out and just cuts them up as they rush him. He can attack from all angles so it's not like he has to quickly get out of the way or anything.

Kimimaro was anticipating Lee's moves, which is why his unorthodox movements through him off. Not to mention Kimimaro had only revealed one bone at the time and didn't want to use another just yet.

Despite that, he replied to the Lotus blitz perfectly fine.

Like I said, it was his skill that allowed him to dodge. Even Lee said so.

Haku's speed is considered to be so great because of his ability to traverse between mirrors, meaning he has to leave one to get to another. It doesn't matter if Naruto caught him while he was out because that's the only time he could grab him.

And of course he did, Naruto never make contact with Kimimaro.

Yes he did.

You never gave people the chance to explain why they think he solos because you immediately jumped to the "but he lost to Gaara and Lee" argument.

He was loosing to Gaara and Lee before he transformed though. After transforming he would of beat them if he wasn't sick, but even then the only thing he did that was truly impressive was the bone forest. Nothing besides that really proved he could solo.

Haku's needles ain't doing jack to him and he isn't catching him in his Ice Mirrors, so he's a non-factor.

They should be enough to hinder or distract him a little, which is all Zabuza needs to win.

Zabuza's Hidden Mist is countered by the fact that once Kimimaro hardens his bones, Kabuza can't hurt him.

Zabuza can still cut his skin, which I assume would cause him to eventually bleed out. Also we don't know how effective the sword would be on Kimimaro's bones. For all we know it might be able to cut them unless it was stated they were unbreakable, I don't remember.

Is it possible for Zabuza to use water prison jutsu and drown Kimimaro?

What else do you think he's going to do once the battlefield gets enshrouded in mist to where he can't see anything?

Get into a defensive stance and maybe take a bone out.

@alextheboss:

I understand, but that example would only work if it's true. If the databook has stronger characters with higher numbers 99% of the time, I don't see why it can't be taken into consideration. I know it shouldn't be used to decide a winner though.

Characters' movesets, morals, and other fears are to be taken into consideration before databook scores.

Jumping to them as your first argument wasn't a smart choice.

Just because they never used genjutsu doesn't mean they can't. Kimimaro having higher genjutsu, and since neither use genjutsu, is actually something that favors Zabuza.

Not sure how that helps Zabuza since Tayuya can put both him and Haku in a Genjutsu in minutes, but whatever.

Maybe they aren't slower, but Kimimaro wasn't even blitzing them, or outspeeding them.

Yes, he was just preventing a version of Naruto that was too fast for Haku to catch him.

He doesn't have to "blitz" them to be faster than Haku.

No it means he is skilled enough to not get overwhelmed by them.

You can be as skilled as you want, if you don't have the speed, you're getting overwhelmed.

He didn't dodge all of them. I just looked at the manga and all it showed was him blocking a couple, getting swarmed by like 5 of them, and then he stabs them with his bones. Then He pulls his arm bone out and just cuts them up as they rush him. He can attack from all angles so it's not like he has to quickly get out of the way or anything.

*sigh*

It's like you're actively trying to find excuses to avoid saying "Yeah Kimimaro is fast".

You think just because he doesn't have to move, he can't react to Naruto's KN0 clones?

Like I said, it was his skill that allowed him to dodge. Even Lee said so.

Enough with the "skill" argument. It doesn't matter how skilled Kimimaro is if he's not fast enough to move. All you're doing right now is avoiding the fact that Kimimaro is too fast for the team.

Yes he did.

Out of that paragraph, that's what you chose to respond to?

He was loosing to Gaara and Lee before he transformed though.

No he wasn't. Lee was rendered a non-factor the minute Gaara intervened and Kimimaro only had trouble because Gaara literally flooded the field with sand which is something that a close-range fighter like Kimimaro would obviously have trouble with. That still didn't stop him from countering everything Gaara threw at him, so not seeing how that means he was losing.

After transforming he would of beat them if he wasn't sick, but even then the only thing he did that was truly impressive was the bone forest. Nothing besides that really proved he could solo.

Nothing outside of his superior speed, skin hard enough to prevent damage, and transformations that only increase his already superior attributes?

They should be enough to hinder or distract him a little, which is all Zabuza needs to win.

No they're not. There's no way he's even catching Kimimaro in his technique which means no endless barrage of needles to hinder him.

Zabuza can still cut his skin, which I assume would cause him to eventually bleed out. Also we don't know how effective the sword would be on Kimimaro's bones. For all we know it might be able to cut them unless it was stated they were unbreakable, I don't remember.

His bones are harder than steel. Which is what Zabuza's sword is made out of. Steel or iron, can't remember.

Is it possible for Zabuza to use water prison jutsu and drown Kimimaro?

Definitely not with the rest of the Sound 4, and he has to catch him first.

Get into a defensive stance and maybe take a bone out.

That's what he would do if he could see his opponent.

@thevivas:

Characters' movesets, morals, and other fears are to be taken into consideration before databook scores.

I agree with this and never contradicted it.

Jumping to them as your first argument wasn't a smart choice.

I was just trying to provide evidence for them being in the same league of power, nothing else.

Not sure how that helps Zabuza since Tayuya can put both him and Haku in a Genjutsu in minutes, but whatever.

I agree Zabuza gets stomped here... My only argument was him and Haku together aren't being solod by Kimimaro.

Yes, he was just preventing a version of Naruto that was too fast for Haku to catch him.

It's not that they couldn't catch him, he just kept one shotting then when they got close.

He doesn't have to "blitz" them to be faster than Haku.

Of course he is faster than Haku, I'm saying Haku is fast enough to at least be some help for Zabuza. Kimimaro can probably stomp Haku by himself.

You can be as skilled as you want, if you don't have the speed, you're getting overwhelmed.

Ya, he's faster, but not by a lot.

*sigh*

It's like you're actively trying to find excuses to avoid saying "Yeah Kimimaro is fast".

You think just because he doesn't have to move, he can't react to Naruto's KN0 clones?

Again you are taking my argument the wrong way. Kimimaro is faster than Haku and Naruto, but that doesn't mean he is so much faster Haku is useless.

Enough with the "skill" argument. It doesn't matter how skilled Kimimaro is if he's not fast enough to move. All you're doing right now is avoiding the fact that Kimimaro is too fast for the team.

As I explained above, Kimimaro is faster than Haku, but not enough for Haku to be a non factor. Kimimaro is barely faster than Zabuza, and there isn't really any proof that he is faster than Zabuza at all besides the databook.

Out of that paragraph, that's what you chose to respond to?

The rest of it was you just explaining what I already knew about Haku's power. I decided to respond to the part I could easily prove wrong with a manga scan.

No he wasn't. Lee was rendered a non-factor the minute Gaara intervened and Kimimaro only had trouble because Gaara literally flooded the field with sand which is something that a close-range fighter like Kimimaro would obviously have trouble with. That still didn't stop him from countering everything Gaara threw at him, so not seeing how that means he was losing.

Kimimaro was forced to transform. At best he was even with Gaara before transforming. I do agree Gaara's abilities worked well against Kimimaro though.

Nothing outside of his superior speed, skin hard enough to prevent damage, and transformations that only increase his already superior attributes?

None of that is quantifiable though. We don't know how much faster, harder, or stronger he got. All we know is he became too much for Gaara.

No they're not. There's no way he's even catching Kimimaro in his technique which means no endless barrage of needles to hinder him.

Zabuza would help Haku land the technique. They could work together to win.

His bones are harder than steel. Which is what Zabuza's sword is made out of. Steel or iron, can't remember.

His sword regens from iron from blood. I'm not sure if that means it's made of pure iron though.

Definitely not with the rest of the Sound 4, and he has to catch him first.

Like I said, Zabuza gets stomped by the sound 4 and Kimimaro.

The Sound 5 stomps

I'm not sure if a sick Kimmimaro could solo Zabuza and Haku. Zabuza by himself would give Kakashi a really hard time. Kimmimaro was tough. But I don't think he is out of Kakashi's league. We haven't seen Kimmimaro do very against environment altering Jutsu either. He would have to go into stage 2 Curse Mark if he wanted to stalemate by using the bone graveyard Jutsu. If Haku was still alive at that point he could easily get Zabuza out of the way of danger too with ice mirrors. And Haku is not to be underestimated. Although Kimmimaro did stomp a bunch of KN0 Naruto clones and one of those clones could have blitzed Haku if it had the same speed and strength as KN0 Naruto did on the bridge. Haku still isn't fodder. He can do quite a bit to at least help Zabuza.

But throw in the rest of the Sound 5 and Zabuza and Haku get absolutely stomped. There is nothing they can do. Bring in the rest of the Hidden Mist Swordsmen and then we would have a fight.

Yes. Walking through 200m of sand is harder. The water should just not budge him. They can't drown him because...they have no move that can do so and just aim for his lungs.

- 59 wins and counting. 3 tournaments.

War With Words

@darkraiden: When did he do that? The Giant Vortex justu was able to tear apart trees and create currents that ragdolled Zabuza. Couldn't the Water Prison justu drown him?

When he faced Gaara, Gaara buried him under 200m of sand and tried to crush him with his sand. He also survived the Sand Tsunami which took out the entire area.

Water Prison can be easily countered by Kimimaro extending any of his bones, using his tail, shooting bone bullets, or bone forest

- 59 wins and counting. 3 tournaments.

War With Words

only problem for Kimi ís the sound-genjutsu

without that easy win for him

Kimimaro as a edo keep up with kcm naruto so the sound 5 stomps like haku's best feat is keeping up with lee and gai