Wrath (Walzo) vs Daken (God_Spawn) (FINISHED)

Location:

Equipment:

• Wrath gets his 4 sabers.

Rules:

• Morals are on.
• Standard Elimination Rules apply.
• X is Wrath, Y is Daken.

Bradley has multiple ways to win this, whether it be by reading Daken's move with his Ultimate Eye, or being able to react and attack him.

Bradley has shown that he loves to blitz his enemies, not giving them much of a thought to defend themselves.

He should have the reaction time to keep up with Daken, since he was able to react to machine gun fire without missing a beat.

@walzo:

I don't he will be able to blitz Daken. Characters like Captain America, Daredevil, Wolverine, Deadpool, Batman, Deathstroke, Nightwing etc have all dodged rooms full of people automatic guns shooting at them. Bradley is fast, I have no doubt about that, but his preference here isn't going to help him much if characters like Mr. X, Daredevil, and Batman have deflected gunfire before, even machine gun fire. Bradley isn't moving far beyond bullet speeds at all to the point where him blitzing will really matter. And even then, it isn't a consistent thing. And I mean by that spamming it. So while he can sprint faster than Daken across the field, he isn't moving fast enough to where Daken can't dodge him. When he was shown blitzing Lan, she still managed to make a swipe and shatter his sword. Say Bradley could do something similar; Daken's claws can rend through steel. I wouldn't doubt if he could at least counter or do something similar to what Lan did and his HF will take care of whatever residual damage could be done.

And branching off that not spamming his blitz, that then sets the favor in Daken. I understand Wrath has a solid level of skill, but so does Daken. He has been able to humiliate Deadpool, give Wolverine some trouble and managed to hold his own against Cyber and showed he had him outclassed in skill, speed, agility, and reflexes. Daken just didn't have anyway real way to hurt him. He's ranked 7 by Marvel as well as far as skill goes, and given his rap sheet, he should be able to back up that claim and can fight the top tiers in skill or at least give them good fights.

Now onto the ultimate eye. It needs to view movement to work, but that is the problem. It will work on the regular movements, but it isn't 100% in that I don't think Wrath has the speed or skill to counter every time before Daken will start dealing damage. And given that it needs to view movement, Daken does have a counter with his disappearing ability. He's done it to Wolverine, Deadpool, Cyber, and even Spider-Man before. In fact, the only reason Spider-Man admitted he survived was his spider-sense. So people who are bullet dodgers and more than capable of matching Bradley, if not, are relative close. Though I think Spider-Man is faster than all of them anyway. Spidey has remarked Daken's speed is similar to Wolverine's (Spider-Man has even thought Wolverine almost moved faster than he does) stated that there is no warning when Daken uses the technique.

So Parker just blinks and Daken is there. Daken gives no warning on the technique. He disappears to superhuman characters. Considering characters like Wolverine and Spider-Man have tagged speedsters like Quicksilver or tagged characters that have tagged speedsters like the Gorgon. Gorgon has blitzed Wolverine, but in battle Logan has tagged him before. I don't see Bradley outclassing these guys. And there is also the point that I am pretty sure I have seen you admit to, is that Bradley isn't able to keep up with his eye at times due to his age. So I find no reason the port slash won't work. Daken just disappears. It's worked on people with enhanced senses and even pre-cog, and that pre-cog Spider-Man has, has a 360 degree proficiency. If Wrath can't see, it won't work. And Daken does the technique quite frequently to the back. He finds it better when his opponent can't see. In his own words "he is just where his enemy isn't looking."

And if all else fails, there are the pheromones which could be a factor in maybe one or two battles if it came down to it. Daken is adaptable. He did so against Spider-Man to counter the Spider-Man's enhanced stats to a degree and slow his perception. He did so against Cyber to escalate his heart problem and I believe he used them against Skaar as well to calm him down a bit. He also tried them against Wolverine in their last fight to calm him down, but they didn't work for some reason.

TL;DR. Daken is fast enough to match Bradley. His healing factor, speed, and I would say skill edge, would be enough to counter Bradley's eye and speed. Daken's claws can rend through steel and Skaar, Hulk's son. His disappearing trick is fast enough to work. His healing can take care of injuries while Bradley cannot, despite his pain tolerance. And he has no problem dismembering opponents. He did kill Frank Castle after all by chopping him into bits.

@ancient_0f_days: You really should have just PM'd me instead. I don't like it that you derailed my thread when I had 10 Pm's in my inbox on the thread and I was figuring out what to do with it.

@god_spawn: yeah, I knew it.....shoulda PM'd..... wont happen again

@god_spawn:

I don't he will be able to blitz Daken. Characters like Captain America, Daredevil, Wolverine, Deadpool, Batman, Deathstroke, Nightwing etc have all dodged rooms full of people automatic guns shooting at them. Bradley is fast, I have no doubt about that, but his preference here isn't going to help him much if characters like Mr. X, Daredevil, and Batman have deflected gunfire before, even machine gun fire

I don't really think that Bradley would be able to blitz and kill Daken either, however I do think, given how Bradley treats people he doesn't know, Bradley will be relentless in his attacks. He's never been shown to give his opponents a moments notice unless he knows the person, such as Greed and Scar.

Also, I've never heard of Bruce or Matt being able to deflect machine gun fire. Bullets, yes, but never machine gun ammo.

When he was shown blitzing Lan, she still managed to make a swipe and shatter his sword. Say Bradley could do something similar; Daken's claws can rend through steel. I wouldn't doubt if he could at least counter or do something similar to what Lan did and his HF will take care of whatever residual damage could be done.

Bradley's blades were shown to be able to cut through Buccaneer's Crocodile automail, which was made from carbon fiber. While I understand what you're pointing out, I do think that Bradley's swords could last against Daken's claws.

Now onto the ultimate eye. It needs to view movement to work, but that is the problem. It will work on the regular movements, but it isn't 100% in that I don't think Wrath has the speed or skill to counter every time before Daken will start dealing damage. And given that it needs to view movement, Daken does have a counter with his disappearing ability. He's done it to Wolverine, Deadpool, Cyber, and even Spider-Man before. In fact, the only reason Spider-Man admitted he survived was his spider-sense. So people who are bullet dodgers and more than capable of matching Bradley, if not, are relative close. Though I think Spider-Man is faster than all of them anyway. Spidey has remarked Daken's speed is similar to Wolverine's (Spider-Man has even thought Wolverine almost moved faster than he does) stated that there is no warning when Daken uses the technique.

This could actually be the biggest problem for Bradley, however I don't know why you're making a big deal out of Spider-man being unable to catch him, he's been fooled before by simpler things like holograms. And yeah I agree that Spider-man is faster than anyone mentioned.

So Parker just blinks and Daken is there. Daken gives no warning on the technique. He disappears to superhuman characters. Considering characters like Wolverine and Spider-Man have tagged speedsters like Quicksilver or tagged characters that have tagged speedsters like the Gorgon. Gorgon has blitzed Wolverine, but in battle Logan has tagged him before. I don't see Bradley outclassing these guys. And there is also the point that I am pretty sure I have seen you admit to, is that Bradley isn't able to keep up with his eye at times due to his age. So I find no reason the port slash won't work. Daken just disappears. It's worked on people with enhanced senses and even pre-cog, and that pre-cog Spider-Man has, has a 360 degree proficiency. If Wrath can't see, it won't work. And Daken does the technique quite frequently to the back. He finds it better when his opponent can't see. In his own words "he is just where his enemy isn't looking."

Curious, does Daken have to get out of disappearing when attacking? If so, then their is a kink in the armor. Yes I did state that Bradley is out of his prime and that he can't keep up with his ultimate eye, however Bradley also deflected gun fire, even without it's use.

And if all else fails, there are the pheromones which could be a factor in maybe one or two battles if it came down to it. Daken is adaptable. He did so against Spider-Man to counter the Spider-Man's enhanced stats to a degree and slow his perception. He did so against Cyber to escalate his heart problem and I believe he used them against Skaar as well to calm him down a bit.

What type of emotions has Daken made people feel? But yeah, this is a good point.

@walzo:

I don't really think that Bradley would be able to blitz and kill Daken either, however I do think, given how Bradley treats people he doesn't know, Bradley will be relentless in his attacks. He's never been shown to give his opponents a moments notice unless he knows the person, such as Greed and Scar.

But I don't think that is enough to necessarily say it is an offensive tactic that will garner a majority. I've seen Daken relentlessly attack Wolverine a couple and completely decimated Castle when he felt like it. I mean literally decimated him. Frank's arms were severed, his head was severed, his torso was severed. Daken left him in pieces. That in of itself is a problem for Bradley considering he has no defense against getting limbs removed.

Also, I've never heard of Bruce or Matt being able to deflect machine gun fire. Bullets, yes, but never machine gun ammo.

I think Daredevil has, but I can't recall. So I might be wrong on that part, but Batman has and like I said, so has Mr. X. So my point still stands

.

Bradley's blades were shown to be able to cut through Buccaneer's Crocodile automail, which was made from carbon fiber. While I understand what you're pointing out, I do think that Bradley's swords could last against Daken's claws.

Fair enough. But there is still the possibility of dismemberment and the point still stands.

Gallery

This could actually be the biggest problem for Bradley, however I don't know why you're making a big deal out of Spider-man being unable to catch him, he's been fooled before by simpler things like holograms. And yeah I agree that Spider-man is faster than anyone mentioned.

Because of Spider-Man's speed and natural reflexes, plus his spider-sense. Daken being no faster than say Wolverine, is able to nearly cleave his head off before Spider-Man realizes. Spider-Man's actually the only one to dodge the port slash and because of his spider sense. And since Bradley isn't pushing Spidey's ( I think Bradley's a bit slower), he shouldn't be able to react.

Curious, does Daken have to get out of disappearing when attacking? If so, then their is a kink in the armor. Yes I did state that Bradley is out of his prime and that he can't keep up with his ultimate eye, however Bradley also deflected gun fire, even without it's use.

No. He's actually disappeared and when he reappears, his attack has already been struck.

Gallery

What type of emotions has Daken made people feel? But yeah, this is a good point.

He can make them feel whatever he wants. He's made Ares angry, calmed Skaar down (IIRC), calmed Bullseye down, and has shown he can alter one's depth perception when he was making Spider-Man's field of vision slow down later on in their fight when he used his pheromones. But like I said, he hasn't used them very often in battle and it would only grant him about 1 win, maybe 2.

But I don't think that is enough to necessarily say it is an offensive tactic that will garner a majority. I've seen Daken relentlessly attack Wolverine a couple and completely decimated Castle when he felt like it. I mean literally decimated him. Frank's arms were severed, his head was severed, his torso was severed. Daken left him in pieces. That in of itself is a problem for Bradley considering he has no defense against getting limbs removed.

While it is true that Bradley doesn't have the regenerative power of the other homunculi, Bradley still is a much better strategist than them, as we can see from all of the training he had before being handed the Ultimate Eye. While I do think that Bradley would most likely blitz just based on the scenario and the fact that there isn't knowledge given on the opponent, I think he would be able to recover quickly enough to escape having serious damage done to him by Daken.

I think Daredevil has, but I can't recall. So I might be wrong on that part, but Batman has and like I said, so has Mr. X. So my point still stands

Wow, I can honestly say that I've never seen that scan used in a debate in this site. What the hell even happened in it? I see Bruce putting his hand up and then bullets in different directions.

Fair enough. But there is still the possibility of dismemberment and the point still stands.

There is a chance of dismemberment on both sides, Daken doesn't have any adamantium skeleton like his father. He does have that healing factor though, but Bradley was also able to KO Greed who's regen I'd say is more impressive than Daken's.

No. He's actually disappeared and when he reappears, his attack has already been struck.

How does Daken react to facing someone he isn't familiar with? From what I'm seeing here, he seemingly plays around with Deadpool and Wolverine, but he also knows both of them well enough. Is it normal for him to do so against just one person who's abilities are unknown to him?

@walzo:

While it is true that Bradley doesn't have the regenerative power of the other homunculi, Bradley still is a much better strategist than them, as we can see from all of the training he had before being handed the Ultimate Eye. While I do think that Bradley would most likely blitz just based on the scenario and the fact that there isn't knowledge given on the opponent, I think he would be able to recover quickly enough to escape having serious damage done to him by Daken.

Damage from those claws is still damage from those claws. Daken could do the same thing, but unlike Wrath, his healing factor will take over.

Wow, I can honestly say that I've never seen that scan used in a debate in this site. What the hell even happened in it? I see Bruce putting his hand up and then bullets in different directions.

He's deflecting machine gunfire.

There is a chance of dismemberment on both sides, Daken doesn't have any adamantium skeleton like his father. He does have that healing factor though, but Bradley was also able to KO Greed who's regen I'd say is more impressive than Daken's.

I understand that possibility, but Wolverine's family have shown they can regrow limbs relatively quickly. X-23 lost her arm once and regrew a new one, savaged the adamantium claws and burnt the old one IIRC. And Daken's healing factor has let him tank a hit from a pissed off Thing (whom he made angry through pheromones, not a battle though), shots from Skaar, napalm, and a bomb that took out a huge building.

Gallery

Granted the possibility of Daken being KO'd and being dismembered, he is still far better off than Wrath is.

How does Daken react to facing someone he isn't familiar with? From what I'm seeing here, he seemingly plays around with Deadpool and Wolverine, but he also knows both of them well enough. Is it normal for him to do so against just one person who's abilities are unknown to him?

I've seen him just outright kill fodder before. One of the things Daken prides himself on is his thought of being the antithesis to Wolverine, so he doesn't like going berserk. So he does remain relatively calm and he does like to joke, but it hasn't ever really hindered him in battle. Sure he's joked in fights like with Skaar, and Punisher, but he still destroyed both of them and to be honest, Daken was rather underwritten in his fight with Castle. Against opponents he doesn't know, he still maintains the calm yet arrogant demeanor, but it isn't detrimental to his skill level. I understand Bradley is very serious and doesn't sh*t around, but even regarding Daken's personality, since it hasn't really hindered him, it won't make much of a difference. Daken actually tends to slip up the more angry he gets, but that is usually an issue involving Wolverine and his daddy issues, so like when he faced X-23 (also underwritten considering overall feats). That is something Wrath doesn't know about so it won't be an issue either.

@god_spawn:

Damage from those claws is still damage from those claws.

Yes it is, however I do think that Bradley is pretty tolerant of his pain and that it wouldn't hinder him that greatly in battle.

I understand that possibility, but Wolverine's family have shown they can regrow limbs relatively quickly. X-23 lost her arm once and regrew a new one, savaged the adamantium claws and burnt the old one IIRC. And Daken's healing factor has let him tank a hit from a pissed off Thing (whom he made angry through pheromones, not a battle though), shots from Skaar, napalm, and a bomb that took out a huge building.

While they may have shown the ability to regrow limbs quickly, so have all of the homunculi. Greed was able to have his head smashed in and got up not even a minute later, got his hand chopped off by Bradley and regrew it quick enough to just keep on with the fight. The point of this whole thing is that Bradley has fought people with regenerative abilities before, so he isn't exactly clueless on how to deal with them.

Against opponents he doesn't know, he still maintains the calm yet arrogant demeanor, but it isn't detrimental to his skill level.

Does he use the disappearing thing against people he doesn't know?

@walzo:

Yes it is, however I do think that Bradley is pretty tolerant of his pain and that it wouldn't hinder him that greatly in battle.

Which still doesn't get rid of the original points. He can deal with it only for so long before his wounds start to become issues if the initial strikes do not.

While they may have shown the ability to regrow limbs quickly, so have all of the homunculi. Greed was able to have his head smashed in and got up not even a minute later, got his hand chopped off by Bradley and regrew it quick enough to just keep on with the fight. The point of this whole thing is that Bradley has fought people with regenerative abilities before, so he isn't exactly clueless on how to deal with them.

Fair enough, but Daken still has a different skillset than the homunculi. Just because he knows how to fight someone with a healing factor, that does not always carry over to compensate for someone as skilled, quick, and lethal as Daken.

Does he use the disappearing thing against people he doesn't know?

He uses it to just to use. Whether it's taunting and attacking or just to finish a fight quickly or when necessary. I won't say he will use it every time here, but he's done it enough times to say it will be a factor for the necessary advantage in victories.

@walzo: So how long are we going to carry this out?

@god_spawn:

Yeah I think both of us have stated our cases, I'll change the title to (VOTING).

@ancient_0f_days: @jashro44@laflux@cadencev2@theacidskulletc, voting open.

Hmmmm, I just wanted to get some opinions on one of the statements. It was state that Daken disappears but he clearly states himself that he doesn't disappear nor does he have any super speed. He is just where his opponents can't see. He also says he's no faster than DP here. So it's pretty clear he's just a master in manipulating blind spots right?

When you look at the Wolverine scans, I think they were showing that Wolverine was turning but as he was turning Daken was moving in his blindspot and wasn't where he initially was.

So to get some clarification, I need to understand the part of the argument of him disappear to get past the Ultimate eye.

I understand no new arguments can be made at this point but I would like to understand the current argument better.

@slimj87d: There isn't anything to really clarify. There has never been an in-depth explanation on it. His opponent blinks and he isn't there. It's just an uberstealth and skill move. There is no movement, no warning, no sound. Wrath isn't getting around it.

It seems like Walzo always starts the fight with his eye patch on, and in the video Walzo had to make sure his enemy wasn't moving in his blind spot. Daken will capitalize on that as God_Spawn has shown due to one of Daken's key weapons is blindspots.

Lastly, there wasn't any counter argument to get past the pheromones. So even if he used his Ultimate eye, there is no evidence he could dilute the pheromones out of his blood system fast enough to fight sober.

I vote God_Spawn.

I stopped reading after that.......

@god_spawnwins due to daken's pheromones ...

Quit being a douche.

@ancient_0f_days:

@slimj87d:

Guys. Unnecessary. You both know better.

@ancient_0f_days: @slimj87d:

GS even states that he doesn't use it often and that it would grant about two wins, and yet it's the main basis for both of your reasons.

Also, DON'T FIGHT.

I do know better and I'm going to defend my reasoning.

I don't know much about Walzo's character. But it's not my job to, not in this debate. This is a debate between two people where they're suppose to present all their evidence to showcase who they are defending and their abilities. Besides that, we're only suppose to vote and judge what was presented to us and the only thing presented with Walzo was 3 videos of where he fought the majority of his fights with the eye patch on, and one video of him even commenting that his enemy was trying to move in his blind spot meaning he HAS a blind spot with the patch on.

Think about that next time before you just call someone out and disrespect them. And you know what I meant when I said Walzo, I mean Wrath.

@walzo: Don't get me wrong, I think your character had enough potential to win this debate. It's just that those 3 videos don't cut. I just needed scans in your counter arguments that prove he has a way around Daken's abilities or skills. If the rebuttals had some scans to showcase your counter argument then I would have been more convinced. I'm actually convinced that Wrath is a lot faster than Daken.

Like example, you said he was an excellent strategist, but I didn't see any scans or references of his strategical thinking that would give him an advantage over Daken.

You also mentioned that Wrath could tolerate a great deal of pain, but in those videos I didn't see him dealing with any pain.

So that's why I had to vote for God_Spawn, because he showed more scans and evidence with his reasoning and logic.

@slimj87d:

Yeah that's my bad, I probably should've posted more information but I was just in the mindset that people already know about Wrath and went ahead and just didn't post any videos after a while. The debates over, so oh well.

wow, that went somewhere...

@god_spawn: I was joking, but I guess I forgot to put "lol" or "jk" after it....my bad.

He may not use them often, but he does use them, and there is a chance he may use them here, also I wasn't fighting......

............ My comment was based on the fact that you said Walzo had an eyepatch...........................................................lol

@ancient_0f_days: I see. I might have acted out on a short temper. I realized that after... I'm going to take a break from the boards for today. This week has been stressful.

Ok....although where I am it's already midnight, so I guess I must retire as well.....

I'd still say 1 win lol. 2 I did say maybe. He's used the pheromones in battle 3x. Once with Spider-Man to alter his perception. Once with Cyber to escalate his heart problem and Wolverine in their last fight, but Wolverine was able to fight it for an undisclosed reason. And I did say he might have affected Skaar when they fought, stopped fighting when Daken wanted to talk (I believe he used pheromones to calm him down, but now that I am trying to remember better, I believe he might have left its effects on Skaar ambiguous), then they fought again.

@theacidskull: I didn't know what to say.

GS-3.

Walzo-0.

People really overestimate Bradley or think too highly of him. Most of the people he's fighting aren't even peak human. Daken is superior to him in every aspect and has a healing factor to boot. Not to mention he pheromones would wreck Bradley's senses.

My vote goes to GS, mainly because Bradley is outclassed here. He's good, but not enough to tango with a guy who is physically superior to him in every aspect, not to mention he's better trained than Bradley as well.

@theacidskull: I've seen worse :P.

Moar people: @lvenger@deranged_midget

Walzo... I still love you buddy but GS has this :)

@theacidskull: I have seen worse. I read through WWH. But then again, you probably thought that was a masterpiece too.

@theacidskull: Hey, if you though AvX was better, no skin off my nose. But I do like the direction they took Cyclops in, so again...no skin off my nose :P.

I thought he used it against Bullseye. And I think I've seen him use it in Dark Avengers. Well he's used it a lot of times outside of battle.

@slimj87d: He has used them a lot. Just inside battle have only been a handful of times.

@theacidskull: I'm sorry you feel that way. I just said I like the direction they took him, where he is now. But the event was awful. If you liked the event itself, I feel bad for you >:D.

@theacidskull: I know you were being sarcastic. I was just humoring you.

@god_spawn:

I think you had the better argument, and I love the scene of Daken seeing Power is all he has and all he needs. It a nice short debate on both sides, and I enjoyed it. So well done both of you. We should do a debate sometime.

@theacidskull:

WWH was a nice story, but I've always preferred Planet Hulk and Heart of the Monster to be honest. And don't worry about Cyclops, and pretty sure no one like him, just look at this video

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