Winter Soldier (MCU) vs Team Arrow (CW)

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RBT

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I am honestly not seeing what Thea and Diggle have done to be more skilled than Bucky, besides somewhat holding their own against Ollie in the recent Flash episode.

Well, all Thea did was defeat Anarky repeatedly, who has bested Ollie. And matched Malcolm. What exactly has Bucky done again that shows off his skill?

@arcus1 said:

@rbt: Thea's consistently better than Anarky. She beat him once under Pit bloodlust, which going by feats amps her fighting to some unquantifiable degree. The next time they fought he took her out in a few seconds. Then in their next fight he took her out, killed her boyfriend, and then was put down by her. Then finally when they clashed as the bunker was collapsing he got the advantage on her and used that time to escape.

Also Ollie has never been able to take down a Mirakuru user without gear

I am pretty sure he was 1v1ing against Caleb Green in a mansion where he got out of a hold, fought for a while and then was the one to make it out of there alive.

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brucerogers

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#102  Edited By brucerogers

@rbt: Fighting evenly with Steve in their first fight?. Holding his own against Panther?. Why wouldn't that count?.

Also, unless you are trying to say that Thea is a better fighter than Ollie now, I don't see what her besting Anarky has to do with anything other than she fighting under the effects of the pit.

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AllStarSuperman

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#103  Edited By AllStarSuperman

@arcus1: He looks for the light inside of himself, and one shots Bucky via power of friendship.

Season 4 was stupid.........

And I didn't read the OP........

Standard Gear Ollie can definitely win.

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RBT

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@rbt: Fighting evenly with Steve in their first fight?. Holding his own against Panther?. Why wouldn't that count?.

Steve outskilled him both fights.

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Did it ever look like Bucky was matching T'Challa's skill? Both T'Challa and Steve are more skilled than he is. So is Natasha, considering she was able to get him in a thigh lock twice. And had it not been for his insane physicals, he'd have gone down.

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@rbt said:
@brucerogers said:

I am honestly not seeing what Thea and Diggle have done to be more skilled than Bucky, besides somewhat holding their own against Ollie in the recent Flash episode.

Well, all Thea did was defeat Anarky repeatedly, who has bested Ollie. And matched Malcolm. What exactly has Bucky done again that shows off his skill?

@arcus1 said:

@rbt: Thea's consistently better than Anarky. She beat him once under Pit bloodlust, which going by feats amps her fighting to some unquantifiable degree. The next time they fought he took her out in a few seconds. Then in their next fight he took her out, killed her boyfriend, and then was put down by her. Then finally when they clashed as the bunker was collapsing he got the advantage on her and used that time to escape.

Also Ollie has never been able to take down a Mirakuru user without gear

I am pretty sure he was 1v1ing against Caleb Green in a mansion where he got out of a hold, fought for a while and then was the one to make it out of there alive.

He was consistently losing against Caleb, fight got interrupted a few times

Yeah he made it out alive, which is good, but that doesn't count as him actually beating Caleb, for all we know it was just luck

@arcus1: He looks for the light inside of himself, and one shots Bucky via power of friendship.

Season 4 was stupid.........

And I didn't read the OP........

Standard Gear Ollie can definitely win.

Lol fair enough

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RBT

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@arcus1:

He was consistently losing against Caleb, fight got interrupted a few times

Yeah he made it out alive, which is good, but that doesn't count as him actually beating Caleb, for all we know it was just luck

I don't even have the issue on me right now. I'll see what I can get.

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Arcus1

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@rbt said:

@arcus1:

He was consistently losing against Caleb, fight got interrupted a few times

Yeah he made it out alive, which is good, but that doesn't count as him actually beating Caleb, for all we know it was just luck

I don't even have the issue on me right now. I'll see what I can get.

No Caption Provided

Here's him not winning against Caleb. Laurel intervened by stabbing Caleb

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RBT

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@arcus1 said:
@rbt said:

@arcus1:

He was consistently losing against Caleb, fight got interrupted a few times

Yeah he made it out alive, which is good, but that doesn't count as him actually beating Caleb, for all we know it was just luck

I don't even have the issue on me right now. I'll see what I can get.

No Caption Provided

Here's him not winning against Caleb. Laurel intervened by stabbing Caleb

Issue number?

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Arcus1

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@rbt said:
@arcus1 said:
@rbt said:

@arcus1:

He was consistently losing against Caleb, fight got interrupted a few times

Yeah he made it out alive, which is good, but that doesn't count as him actually beating Caleb, for all we know it was just luck

I don't even have the issue on me right now. I'll see what I can get.

No Caption Provided

Here's him not winning against Caleb. Laurel intervened by stabbing Caleb

Issue number?

Ummm, close to the end, 22?

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brucerogers

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#110  Edited By brucerogers

@rbt: That was one fight among what, two more?. Also, Bucky was traumatised out of his mind and was more bothered with being on the run, so he was hardly at his best there. I was talking about their fight in that building where he parried Panther's blows and knocked him down with one of his own. Or the one in the airport, where T'Challa admittedly did have an upper hand of sorts, but neither managed to land a particularly good blow on one another, suggesting that they are in the same skill category at least. Even though I agree Panther would beat him after a long fight

Steve outskilled him both fights.

I think you should rewatch his fights with Steve because in both instances, he kept up just fine. The first one was inclusive and the second one ended up with Steve winning(sort of). Worth noting that even though Steve most definitely held back, Bucky was also fighting sloppily due to having his mental programming messed around with. I give Steve an edge, but he did not completely outskill him.

So is Natasha, considering she was able to get him in a thigh lock twice.

You mean where she blindsided him in both instances, when his attention was focused elsewhere?. Also, why is getting into a thigh lock by her supposed to reflect poorly on him?. She is very skilled in her own right.

And had it not been for his insane physicals, he'd have gone down.

Are you forgetting that Steve and T'challa are every bit as physically enhanced as him and bring their own advantages to the table, just like he brings his metal arm?. If he was just a physical brute, he wouldn't have lasted ten seconds against either. He would have probably been beaten to death the moment he went up against a bloodlusted T'challa.

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uugieboogie

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@rbt said:

Thea- Trained by Malcolm and eventually matching him. Defeating Anarky, someone who had given Oliver legit problem and has outright defeated him once.

Anarky was ALL over the place and IIRC didn't the only time she actually beat him was when she under pit lust? Also it seems like you're implying she's more skilled than Ollie. I still don't see how this puts Thea over Bucky or Natasha. Bucky matching Cap is better than matching Merlyn IMO. And why would Natasha giving Bucky "trouble" be a low showing for him when she's been consistently shown to be one of the top non enhanced fighters in the MCU. And she only hit him twice (once was a follow up off of Agent 13's move) and then did her move while his back was turned and started her elbow strikes which had no effect.

And Diggle. I explained his feats in reply to nfactor in this post. And Diggle, who has always been portrayed as second best h2h combtant in Team Arrow, lasting longest against Oliver in any sparring match, is again, not as skilled as Bucky? Wow. I mean what skill feats do Bucky even have? Getting outskilled by Cap?

So you say Bucky has no skill feats and all he did was get outskilled by Cap and Nat (I'll already got to this but I'll post video later in my post). Saying all Bucky did was get outskilled by Cap and I can say all Diggle did was get outskilled by Ollie. So I ask you, how is Diggle "lasting" against Ollie more impressive than Bucky getting "outskilled" against Cap (and even getting the upperhand certain times)? How is Diggle clearing insurgents and ghost more impressive than Bucky stomping through SHIELD on two separate occasions?

See, I'm, comparing their skill to Natasha. Someone who already has been able to outskill Bucky. Bucky isn't really high up in skill department, tbh.

Where did Natasha outskill Bucky exactly? She landed two hits before doing her move from behind.

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This guy was able to one shot his every opponent, blitz them from end of ring, has never been touched once in 5 years in a ring. Oliver didn't one shot him as I said earlier though. He hit him a couple of times and when he saw he wasn't doing enough damage, he went for this move. And KOed him.

So he didn't actually one shot him but that pressure point strike is impressive. Also I was more or so asking for the scans of him beating a Mirakuru soldier without gear.

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RBT

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@brucerogers:

That was one fight among what, two more?. Also, Bucky was traumatised out of his mind and was more bothered with being on the run, so he was hardly at his best there. I was talking about their fight in that building where he parried Panther's blows and knocked him down with one of his own. Or the one in the airport, where T'Challa admittedly did have an upper hand of sorts, but neither managed to land a particularly good blow on one another, suggesting that they are in the same skill category at least. Even though I agree Panther would beat him after a long fight

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In each and every fight, T'Challa had significant upper hand.

I think you should rewatch his fights with Steve because in both instances, he kept up just fine. The first one was inclusive and the second one ended up with Steve winning(sort of). Worth noting that even though Steve most definitely held back, Bucky was also fighting sloppily due to having his mental programming messed around with. I give Steve an edge, but he did not completely outskill him.

Steve definitely had the upper hand in their first fight as well. The only times Bucky got hits in was when he used his metal arms to outright overpower him. And in second fight, Steve was severely holding back and he still demolished Bucky in the end.

You mean where she blindsided him in both instances, when his attention was focused elsewhere?. Also, why is getting into a thigh lock by her supposed to reflect poorly on him?. She is very skilled in her own right.

Doesn't that goes to show that she is better at stealth. And in their CW fight, however short lived that was she managed to get at least three hits in and he didn't get a single one. And no he wasn't holding back either. He outright shot Tony in face.

Are you forgetting that Steve and T'challa are every bit as physically enhanced as him and bring their own advantages to the table, just like he brings his metal arm?. If he was just a physical brute, he wouldn't have lasted ten seconds against either. He would have probably been beaten to death the moment he went up against a bloodlusted T'challa.

Never said Bucky was a physical brute. I'm just pointing out that he has been more or less outskilled by any notable fighter he fought. He's definitely skilled. A brute can't parry and attack simultaneously the way he does, but he's no way a top tier fighter. That's all I'm arguing for.

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@uugieboogie:

Anarky was ALL over the place and IIRC didn't the only time she actually beat him was when she under pit lust? Also it seems like you're implying she's more skilled than Ollie. I still don't see how this puts Thea over Bucky or Natasha. Bucky matching Cap is better than matching Merlyn IMO. And why would Natasha giving Bucky "trouble" be a low showing for him when she's been consistently shown to be one of the top non enhanced fighters in the MCU. And she only hit him twice (once was a follow up off of Agent 13's move) and then did her move while his back was turned and started her elbow strikes which had no effect.

Anarky was not all over the place. He was consistently a top tier fighter. I'm not implying that Thea is a better combatant than Ollie(though i was hoping that eventually she will become). Anarky vs Ollie and Anarky vs Thea fights had slightly different circumstances(Anarky's OP staff). However, the fact that she was able to beat someone who bested Ollie once, granted after taking away his advantage, its still a very impressive showing. As for Malcom and Steve, its a completely different debate. I believe Malcolm is more skilled than Steve is. And matching Malcolm(and even coming on top one time) is a much better feat that loosing to Steve. Twice. And Bucky did loose to Steve. In first he was loosing and in second he outright did, even while Steve was holding back.

Sure, Natasha is a skilled combatant. I am not denying that. All I'm doing is use her as a scale to gauge Bucky's skill level.

So you say Bucky has no skill feats and all he did was get outskilled by Cap and Nat (I'll already got to this but I'll post video later in my post). Saying all Bucky did was get outskilled by Cap and I can say all Diggle did was get outskilled by Ollie. So I ask you, how is Diggle "lasting" against Ollie more impressive than Bucky getting "outskilled" against Cap (and even getting the upperhand certain times)? How is Diggle clearing insurgents and ghost more impressive than Bucky stomping through SHIELD on two separate occasions?

Because Diggle has several other feats to help gauge his skill level. As for how is Diggle ripping through fodders better than Bucky doing same? First, Diggle does it to more skilled group of combatants. Ghosts could actually trade blows with members of team arrow before going down. Not like fodder SHIELD agents who run towards their oppoent, get hit in face and don't get up. Also, Diggle has actually gone against other skilled and done well. He matched China White on two occasions, easily keeps up with both oliver and Sara during training. And its not just about clearing fodders, its how you do it that matter. I am straight stealing this from nickzambuto's respect thread-

"Diggle's convoy in Afghanistan is ambushed by at least 12 Taliban insurgents (he says a dozen but there are about 15-16 actually drawn on panel). He claims that they were the most ruthless group of fighters he had ever seen, and his whole unit gets wiped out almost immediately. Left alone and with no ammo, Diggle is stabbed in the back with a hatchet, but just as the Taliban are about to finish him off, he rips the hatchet out of his back and uses it to kill every single one of them by himself. The whole battle took place before a scarf thrown in the air could reach the ground."

Where did Natasha outskill Bucky exactly? She landed two hits before doing her move from behind.

And how many hits did Bucky land on her in the mean time? And its not the point that her elbow attacks had no effect on him.

So he didn't actually one shot him but that pressure point strike is impressive. Also I was more or so asking for the scans of him beating a Mirakuru soldier without gear.

The fight goes on for over 8-9 pages. Can't post it all, but basically, Oliver was able to hit him repeatedly, staggering him, pushing him in defensive, make him bleed with a hit, knocked him down with his hits, disarmed him. Though Caleb also had upper hand for some portion of fight. Oliver, in the end, came on top.

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@rbt said:

@uugieboogie:

Anarky was ALL over the place and IIRC didn't the only time she actually beat him was when she under pit lust? Also it seems like you're implying she's more skilled than Ollie. I still don't see how this puts Thea over Bucky or Natasha. Bucky matching Cap is better than matching Merlyn IMO. And why would Natasha giving Bucky "trouble" be a low showing for him when she's been consistently shown to be one of the top non enhanced fighters in the MCU. And she only hit him twice (once was a follow up off of Agent 13's move) and then did her move while his back was turned and started her elbow strikes which had no effect.

Anarky was not all over the place. He was consistently a top tier fighter. I'm not implying that Thea is a better combatant than Ollie(though i was hoping that eventually she will become). Anarky vs Ollie and Anarky vs Thea fights had slightly different circumstances(Anarky's OP staff). However, the fact that she was able to beat someone who bested Ollie once, granted after taking away his advantage, its still a very impressive showing. As for Malcom and Steve, its a completely different debate. I believe Malcolm is more skilled than Steve is. And matching Malcolm(and even coming on top one time) is a much better feat that loosing to Steve. Twice. And Bucky did loose to Steve. In first he was loosing and in second he outright did, even while Steve was holding back.

Sure, Natasha is a skilled combatant. I am not denying that. All I'm doing is use her as a scale to gauge Bucky's skill level.

So you say Bucky has no skill feats and all he did was get outskilled by Cap and Nat (I'll already got to this but I'll post video later in my post). Saying all Bucky did was get outskilled by Cap and I can say all Diggle did was get outskilled by Ollie. So I ask you, how is Diggle "lasting" against Ollie more impressive than Bucky getting "outskilled" against Cap (and even getting the upperhand certain times)? How is Diggle clearing insurgents and ghost more impressive than Bucky stomping through SHIELD on two separate occasions?

Because Diggle has several other feats to help gauge his skill level. As for how is Diggle ripping through fodders better than Bucky doing same? First, Diggle does it to more skilled group of combatants. Ghosts could actually trade blows with members of team arrow before going down. Not like fodder SHIELD agents who run towards their oppoent, get hit in face and don't get up. Also, Diggle has actually gone against other skilled and done well. He matched China White on two occasions, easily keeps up with both oliver and Sara during training. And its not just about clearing fodders, its how you do it that matter. I am straight stealing this from nickzambuto's respect thread-

"Diggle's convoy in Afghanistan is ambushed by at least 12 Taliban insurgents (he says a dozen but there are about 15-16 actually drawn on panel). He claims that they were the most ruthless group of fighters he had ever seen, and his whole unit gets wiped out almost immediately. Left alone and with no ammo, Diggle is stabbed in the back with a hatchet, but just as the Taliban are about to finish him off, he rips the hatchet out of his back and uses it to kill every single one of them by himself. The whole battle took place before a scarf thrown in the air could reach the ground."

Where did Natasha outskill Bucky exactly? She landed two hits before doing her move from behind.

And how many hits did Bucky land on her in the mean time? And its not the point that her elbow attacks had no effect on him.

So he didn't actually one shot him but that pressure point strike is impressive. Also I was more or so asking for the scans of him beating a Mirakuru soldier without gear.

The fight goes on for over 8-9 pages. Can't post it all, but basically, Oliver was able to hit him repeatedly, staggering him, pushing him in defensive, make him bleed with a hit, knocked him down with his hits, disarmed him. Though Caleb also had upper hand for some portion of fight. Oliver, in the end, came on top.

hang on

You do realize that Arrowverse fodder does the whole "run up one at a time, get hit, go down" thing just as much if not more than the MCU, right?

And again, Ollie only came out on top because the house came down on them, killing Caleb. He was never going to win in h2h, and Caleb was consistently gaining the upper hand before something would interrupt the fight

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RBT

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@arcus1:

You do realize that Arrowverse fodder does the whole "run up one at a time, get hit, go down" thing just as much if not more than the MCU, right?

Eh.. Ghost were competent more often than not.

And again, Ollie only came out on top because the house came down on them, killing Caleb. He was never going to win in h2h, and Caleb was consistently gaining the upper hand before something would interrupt the fight

How? Oliver not only was getting way more hits in, he also was able to knock Caleb down more than once. Yes, Caled gained upper hand in the fight as well, but so did Oliver. It looked a very even match. Until the beam fell down, of course.

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brucerogers

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@rbt: In each and every fight, T'Challa had significant upper hand.

Yes and I never denied that. Still doesn't change the fact that Bucky could keep up with him and both of them were failing to put each other down for for good. Upper hand or not, that still counts as going toe to toe.

Steve definitely had the upper hand in their first fight as well. The only times Bucky got hits in was when he used his metal arms to outright overpower him.

Not quite. Watch the fight again. Bucky definitely was getting his share of hits in and I am not talking about just chokeslamming Cap with that arm of his. I can break it down scene by scene for you if you want, but from the top of my head, he got in a few punches after using his shield against him and a few more after blocking his jabs, and so on. Steve looked like he was more skilled, but Bucky was by no means behind. The gap between them was negligible.

And in second fight, Steve was severely holding back and he still demolished Bucky in the end.

Holding back?. Sure. But holding back severely?. No sir. Steve wanted to complete his mission at all costs and he needed Bucky to stay out of his way and he was going to fight him, however unwilling he was. So regardless, he was still fighting to keep him down and get on with his mission.

Demolish is rather a strong word to use given that even before he simply gave up and let Bucky wail on him, he at least suffered one knife wound, a nicked bullet wound and some facial injuries. Bucky did put up a good fight before he got sloppy and reckless due to Steve calling out his name over and over again.

Doesn't that goes to show that she is better at stealth.

Sure, but it also goes to show she attacked Bucky when he wasn't expecting her and thus managed to get a drop on him.

And in their CW fight, however short lived that was she managed to get at least three hits in and he didn't get a single one. And no he wasn't holding back either. He outright shot Tony in face.

I never said anything about Bucky holding back, since that would make no sense given his then current state of mind. But Natasha attacked him with at least 2 other people and she still ended up getting nearly choked to death for her efforts. I mean yes, she did get to elbow him in the head repeatedly, but only because he could take it and wasn't bothered by it. That counts as a win to me.

Never said Bucky was a physical brute. I'm just pointing out that he has been more or less outskilled by any notable fighter he fought. He's definitely skilled. A brute can't parry and attack simultaneously the way he does, but he's no way a top tier fighter. That's all I'm arguing for.

Why does he need to be a top tier fighter to be a better h2h combatant than Thea or Diggle?. They aren't top tier either, if you get down to it.

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uugieboogie

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#117  Edited By uugieboogie

@rbt said:

Anarky was not all over the place. He was consistently a top tier fighter. I'm not implying that Thea is a better combatant than Ollie(though i was hoping that eventually she will become). Anarky vs Ollie and Anarky vs Thea fights had slightly different circumstances(Anarky's OP staff). However, the fact that she was able to beat someone who bested Ollie once, granted after taking away his advantage, its still a very impressive showing. As for Malcom and Steve, its a completely different debate. I believe Malcolm is more skilled than Steve is. And matching Malcolm(and even coming on top one time) is a much better feat that loosing to Steve.

This what gets me whenever I debate you regarding CW characters. You give them praise for the samething you fault other live action characters for. Apparently Thea is more skilled becasue 1) She was trained by Malcolm and matched him 2) Beat Anarky who "bested Oliver once" (even though you said it was due to circumstances).

1. What exactly are Merlyn's feats that make his training so spectacular? What has he done since beating season 1 that makes him so skillful? How the hell is Thea matching and getting the upperhand Merlyn more impressive than Bucky matching and getting the upperhand on Cap? Cap who has the skill to go against characters above his weight class? People make it seem like Cap is all physicals when he's beating and held his own against people clearly above his physicals.

2. Anarky "bested" Oliver once. Bucky bested Cap in CW during his escape from SHIELD scene, why is Anarky besting Oliver better?

Twice. And Bucky did loose to Steve. In first he was loosing and in second he outright did, even while Steve was holding back.

I don't see how he lost the first fight, the fight Steve wasn't holding back on. He was matching Cap the entire first fight and got the upperhand multiple times. The second fight he did lose to Steve but their third fight in CW (when Bucky was trying to escape and "go home") he got the upperhand and Cap and even knocked him down a elevator shaft.

Sure, Natasha is a skilled combatant. I am not denying that. All I'm doing is use her as a scale to gauge Bucky's skill level.

So why is Natasha "outskilling" Bucky (when she never did) being used as a low showing?

Because Diggle has several other feats to help gauge his skill level. As for how is Diggle ripping through fodders better than Bucky doing same? First, Diggle does it to more skilled group of combatants.

Pause.. How the hell are the people Diggle face more skilled? Diggle consistently faces street thugs (that's the consistently threat on Arrow) and before team arrow it was terrorist/insurgents. The Ghost were mercenaries and ex military personnel correct? SHIELD alone is more impressive than most of the fodder Diggle fights. SHIELD is several tiers above the military (we see repeatedly how they do better than them) and we saw how handily SHIELD dealt with the pirates/mercs in TWS opening scene. SHIELD is producing agents like Hawkeye, Widow, Daisy, Bobbi, Ward, May, Rumlow etc. Meanwhile the ghost produce John's little brother?

Ghosts could actually trade blows with members of team arrow before going down. Not like fodder SHIELD agents who run towards their oppoent, get hit in face and don't get up.

Woahhhh lets not go there lmao. Arrow is NOTORIOUS for having fodder with glass jaws that drop like flies and ghost weren't any different. You realize those SHIELD agents who got hit in the face and didn't get back up were getting hit by Bucky right? The same guy who can punch through concrete and punch someone like Cap back 20ft or so and can punch someone like Cap through an elevator door. One punch from his non mechanical arm sent Tony flying back and he stayed down the remainder of the fight. But I find this argument coming from you amusing. Weren't you one of the users not too long ago defending Arrow's fodder? Saying it because Team Arrow hits so hard or something along those lines?

Also, Diggle has actually gone against other skilled and done well. He matched China White on two occasions, easily keeps up with both oliver and Sara during training. And its not just about clearing fodders, its how you do it that matter.

Matching Chyna White is impressive because what exactly? Again how is "easily keeping up with Oliver ans Sara during training" impressive when Bucky keeping up with Cap is just him getting outskilled? In Captain America: The Road to Civil War it opens up with Natasha and Steve sparring with them blocking each others strikes. Also saying "how you clear fodder is what matters" is also amusing to hear because Arrow fans were arguing AGAINST this when people were mocking their choreography.

I am straight stealing this from nickzambuto's respect thread-

"Diggle's convoy in Afghanistan is ambushed by at least 12 Taliban insurgents (he says a dozen but there are about 15-16 actually drawn on panel). He claims that they were the most ruthless group of fighters he had ever seen, and his whole unit gets wiped out almost immediately. Left alone and with no ammo, Diggle is stabbed in the back with a hatchet, but just as the Taliban are about to finish him off, he rips the hatchet out of his back and uses it to kill every single one of them by himself. The whole battle took place before a scarf thrown in the air could reach the ground."

Okay he killed some terrorist. How is that more impressive than Bucky breaking out of SHIELD going through MULTIPLE agents as well Avengers including Falcon, Cap, Widow and T'Challa? How is that more impressive than Bucky storming helicarriers by himself killing multiple agents and disabling Falcon. How is beating taliban insurgents more impressive than Widow clearing hallways full of trained mercs twice her size? Or soloing hordes of superhuman robots and Aliens? Her skill allows her to contend with opponents John wouldn't last more than a minute with.

And how many hits did Bucky land on her in the mean time? And its not the point that her elbow attacks had no effect on him.

He never even tried to hit Widow though so I don't see your point.

The fight goes on for over 8-9 pages. Can't post it all, but basically, Oliver was able to hit him repeatedly, staggering him, pushing him in defensive, make him bleed with a hit, knocked him down with his hits, disarmed him. Though Caleb also had upper hand for some portion of fight. Oliver, in the end, came on top.

Didn't Oliver have help in that fight? And isn't there some context to that fight as well?

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Arcus1

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@rbt said:

@arcus1:

You do realize that Arrowverse fodder does the whole "run up one at a time, get hit, go down" thing just as much if not more than the MCU, right?

Eh.. Ghost were competent more often than not.

And again, Ollie only came out on top because the house came down on them, killing Caleb. He was never going to win in h2h, and Caleb was consistently gaining the upper hand before something would interrupt the fight

How? Oliver not only was getting way more hits in, he also was able to knock Caleb down more than once. Yes, Caled gained upper hand in the fight as well, but so did Oliver. It looked a very even match. Until the beam fell down, of course.

No more competent than standard MCU fodder

When did Ollie actually get the upper hand? Any time he was able to land a good blow, Caleb landed one just as good if not better

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buildhare

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Last night's episode of The Flash 120% confirmed that Oliver (and by extension the rest of team arrow) aren't bullet timers in any sense, so get that "he's faster" crap out of here.

Bucky still wins the first two rounds low to no diff, the third depends on his gear but he isn't losing to any of team arrow up close even if they have weapons.

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@buildhare:

Last night's episode of The Flash 120% confirmed that Oliver (and by extension the rest of team arrow) aren't bullet timers in any sense, so get that "he's faster" crap out of here.

In Arrow/Flash crossovers Oliver's speed is always downplayed to highlight Barry's speed and to create a contrast and to make both characters much better in their areas of focus. In the first Arrow/Flash crossover Oliver was somehow unable to react to a boomerang being thrown at him when he and characters slower than him are usually casual arrow timers.

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@lubub55:

In the first crossover he was able to tag flash. That's far from downplaying.

None of the Arrow crew are bullet timers or even close to it. The Mr Blank instance has been debunked more then enough times and the other instances people usually draw attention to are literally him running away from gunmen.

I think it's PIS that they were caught off guard so easily but the fact they were about to be killed by bullets (and unable to dodge said bullets) was both obvious to the viewer and clearly the writers intention.

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@buildhare:

In the first crossover he was able to tag flash. That's far from downplaying.

To be fair Flash was toying around with Oliver and as soon as he got serious he just speedblitzed him. Oliver doing so well wasn't doing so well because of his raw speed, the writers were highlighting his skill and experience as reasons for his victory. That's the contrast I'm talking about.

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And here is Oliver somehow being too slow to react to boomerangs. I can react to boomerangs.

None of the Arrow crew are bullet timers or even close to it. The Mr Blank instance has been debunked more then enough times and the other instances people usually draw attention to are literally him running away from gunmen.

I'm pretty sure the Mr. Blank instance is pretty much accepted as legitimate bullet timing at this point.

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I've made it into screenshots so we can see that Oliver ducks after the shot is fired and before it hits.

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Here we see twice that Oliver dodges gunfire from Deadshot. The first shot has Floyd firing, the second has Oliver moving and the third has the bullets hitting the wall. It is pretty clear from that that Oliver is legitimately bullet timing but if that's not enough it's actually supported afterwards through dialogue. During a conversation with Diggle after breaking out of prison in Season 2, he claims that he doesn't miss. If Oliver moved beforehand and Floyd fired anyway, the shot would be a miss.

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After Deathstroke fires at Oliver, he is fast enough to grab Felicity and pull them both over a railing before the shots hit.

I think it's PIS that they were caught off guard so easily but the fact they were about to be killed by bullets (and unable to dodge said bullets) was both obvious to the viewer and clearly the writers intention.

Yeah, they shouldn't have been in that situation in the first place. This scene is almost identical to Oliver being unable to dodge a boomerang earlier and needing saving from Barry which was also PIS and is used as an introduction for the Flash. I think the crossover scene proves that it can't be used as evidence against Oliver. It should also be noted that it was The Flash writers who did that rather than the Arrow writers.

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Arcus1

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@lubub55: I've seen far more arguments for the Mr. Blank thing not being actual bullet timing than for it being bullet timing. Plus, the screenshots show that the bullet didn't even seem to hit where Ollie actually was

Kinda hard to argue for bullet timing with Deadshot when the movement's in different cuts. Him dodging could easily just be aim dodging

As for Slade, similar situation, far as we know it's just Ollie pulling Felicity out of the way as he sees Slade raising the gun. Plus Slade didn't want to kill them

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@lubub55:

To be fair Flash was toying around with Oliver and as soon as he got serious he just speedblitzed him. Oliver doing so well wasn't doing so well because of his raw speed, the writers were highlighting his skill and experience as reasons for his victory. That's the contrast I'm talking about.

Flash speedblitzing Oliver isn't downplaying though. It's a realistic scenario. They didn't have to downplay Olivers speed to make that contrast between speed & skill obvious, because it's always been apparent in every situation since the Flash was "created".

And here is Oliver somehow being too slow to react to boomerangs. I can react to boomerangs.

Few issues with this;

  • If Capt. Boomerang threw them slow enough for normal people to dodge....why the hell does he exist?
  • The inconsistency is with the speed of the boomerang, not Oliver failing to dodge it. The Boomerang is moving so fast that literally everything else in the frame is motionless. The objects themselves are moving slightly faster then the bullets Barry saves Earth 2 wells from (I can't recall when the crossover took place, but the difference between EOS1 Barry and early S2 Barry is negligible). The objects are bullet speed or higher by that reasoning, which is clearly PIS, but failing to react to them is not a low showing for Oliver.

I'm pretty sure the Mr. Blank instance is pretty much accepted as legitimate bullet timing at this point.

It isn't, we had a thread about it just recently. Arcus and other debaters then me have already made these points.

Yeah, they shouldn't have been in that situation in the first place. This scene is almost identical to Oliver being unable to dodge a boomerang earlier and needing saving from Barry which was also PIS and is used as an introduction for the Flash. I think the crossover scene proves that it can't be used as evidence against Oliver.

Not really. I agree that being caught out in each scenario seems like PIS but the actual threat in each scenario (PIS-erang, Dahrk and bullets) are no less valid. Just the turn of events that lead them to be so damn exposed. Not relevant but hopefully that last scenario wasn't too bad, they could actually be making Vigilante out to be a genuine threat, which would be great imo.

It should also be noted that it was The Flash writers who did that rather than the Arrow writers.

Not sure if it was entirely Flash writers (it's a crossover event, there's bound to be overlap) but they still have a great deal of respect for Olivers abilities anyway (i.e fighting all of his mind controlled friends at the same time and being on the winning end) so saying they're downplaying him doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

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Team all three rounds. Ollie has better feats on h2h and canary cry will cause disorientation which is enough to incapacitate him.

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@brucerogers:

Yes and I never denied that. Still doesn't change the fact that Bucky could keep up with him and both of them were failing to put each other down for for good. Upper hand or not, that still counts as going toe to toe

That's my point. Bucky was never keeping up with T'Challa. In 3 out of 4 fights, he had to be rescued. Once by helicopter, second by Steve and third by Wanda. Bucky consistently lost to T'Challa.

Not quite. Watch the fight again. Bucky definitely was getting his share of hits in and I am not talking about just chokeslamming Cap with that arm of his. I can break it down scene by scene for you if you want, but from the top of my head, he got in a few punches after using his shield against him and a few more after blocking his jabs, and so on. Steve looked like he was more skilled, but Bucky was by no means behind. The gap between them was negligible.

Holding back?. Sure. But holding back severely?. No sir. Steve wanted to complete his mission at all costs and he needed Bucky to stay out of his way and he was going to fight him, however unwilling he was. So regardless, he was still fighting to keep him down and get on with his mission.

Demolish is rather a strong word to use given that even before he simply gave up and let Bucky wail on him, he at least suffered one knife wound, a nicked bullet wound and some facial injuries. Bucky did put up a good fight before he got sloppy and reckless due to Steve calling out his name over and over again.

Okay, but Bucky still used his strength advantage. More than once. And not to mention that Steve was pretty roughed up beforehand(the bus accident). That would also explain how Steve was able to defeat him fair and square, while holding back.

Yes, Steve wanted to complete his mission, but he had absolutely no intention of hurting Bucky. He made it clear during that fight. And him giving up has nothing to do with their skill. Steve gave up because, well, he wanted to bring Bucky back. Which he succeeded in btw.

Sure, but it also goes to show she attacked Bucky when he wasn't expecting her and thus managed to get a drop on him.

I never said anything about Bucky holding back, since that would make no sense given his then current state of mind. But Natasha attacked him with at least 2 other people and she still ended up getting nearly choked to death for her efforts. I mean yes, she did get to elbow him in the head repeatedly, but only because he could take it and wasn't bothered by it. That counts as a win to me.

She got choked because he outright overpowered her. Fight other fights of Natasha. Its usually game over for her opponent when she gets them in a thigh hold. She couldn't do it to him because, well, he was considerably stronger than her.

And it's definitely a win for Bucky. But only because he could take those hits. If he didn't have enhancement, Natasha would have had him.

As for Natasha attacking him with 2 other people, no. Tony was already out of picture.

Why does he need to be a top tier fighter to be a better h2h combatant than Thea or Diggle?. They aren't top tier either, if you get down to it.

Thea definitely is up there. Diggle doesn't have many feats against top tier opponents, though he was able to match China White for as long as they fought(who bested Oliver once and stalemated once in S1).

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@arcus1:

No more competent than standard MCU fodder

Ghosts were generally able to challenge members of team Arrow before eventually going down. Sure, there are bad moments where they just tumble, but they still managed to challenge them time to time. And lets not forget that they had avoided even a single capture in all the time Oliver was away. Easily more compentent than SHIELD fodders.

When did Ollie actually get the upper hand? Any time he was able to land a good blow, Caleb landed one just as good if not better

Quite a few times-

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And remember, both of them were in same situation and Oliver was the one who made it out alive.

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#128  Edited By ThunderPrince
Loading Video...

Bucky stomp round 1 and 3, Second round he still wins due to better stats and comparable if not better skill.

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Anyone who thinks the Arrow crew has more than a tiny chance against WS after seeing that set of clips is kidding themselves.

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Bucky make's Team Arrow into beef and serves it to me on a platter. But keeps Felicity and ties her to the side for after. Hot

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#131  Edited By Arcus1

@rbt said:

@arcus1:

No more competent than standard MCU fodder

Ghosts were generally able to challenge members of team Arrow before eventually going down. Sure, there are bad moments where they just tumble, but they still managed to challenge them time to time. And lets not forget that they had avoided even a single capture in all the time Oliver was away. Easily more compentent than SHIELD fodders.

When did Ollie actually get the upper hand? Any time he was able to land a good blow, Caleb landed one just as good if not better

Quite a few times-

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And remember, both of them were in same situation and Oliver was the one who made it out alive.

SHIELD fodder puts up a decent enough fight all the time?

That's not Oliver getting the upper hand, that's him landing shots followed by Caleb landing shots. Immediately after that scan you posted is Caleb landing an even better blow on Ollie that puts him on the ground

Are you defining "getting the upper hand" as just Ollie landing a hit on Caleb? Cause that's not really accurate. Having Ollie on the ground, about to kill him before Laurel distracts him by stabbing him-that's getting the upper hand

Yeah, and as far as we know it was just luck that Ollie made it out alive. How does that factor into martial arts skill?

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@rbt said:
@brucerogers said:

@rbt: Fighting evenly with Steve in their first fight?. Holding his own against Panther?. Why wouldn't that count?.

Steve outskilled him both fights.

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Did it ever look like Bucky was matching T'Challa's skill? Both T'Challa and Steve are more skilled than he is. So is Natasha, considering she was able to get him in a thigh lock twice. And had it not been for his insane physicals, he'd have gone down.

1. Okay, T'Challa was fighting to kill and also has a vibranium suit that can take bullets from a helicopter. He also had the element of surprise and knowledge of Bucky where's Bucky didn't know about:

1. T'Challa having the panther hear herb

2. The suit can absorb explosions and take 20mm caliber bullets

3. BP had claws on his fingers.

There's A LOT of context behind WS vs BP that this community as a whole has misconceptions on.

2. The hellicarrier fight between WS vs Steve. They were pretty much fighting very evenly, in a matter of fact, the WS got a major flesh wound and stabbed Steve. For missions purposes he turned his back on Steve because the chip had higher priority over his own life.

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This fight was left inconclusive to me.

My point is that the skill hierarchy between Steve, Bucky and T'Challa is pretty inconclusive. We don't know how good BP can take continuous hits without his vibranium suit. We don't know what would have happened between Steve and Bucky if they had continued to fight after Steve got stabbed.

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@arcus1: My bad. I kinda got carried away when I said Oliver had upper hand. What I meant from beginning was that Oliver was able to hurt a Mirakuru user with his hits. Which can be seen quite clearly in the scans. That was my intended point from beginning. That since Oliver was able to hurt a Mirakuru user with his hits, making him bleed at a time, he should definitely be able to do the same with Bucky.

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Bucky.

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@rbt:That's my point. Bucky was never keeping up with T'Challa. In 3 out of 4 fights, he had to be rescued. Once by helicopter, second by Steve and third by Wanda. Bucky consistently lost to T'Challa.

But never keeping up would imply he was unable to land any hits or parry his attacks. As for getting rescued, like I said, he wasn't in the right frame of mind when fighting him during the first two times. As for the third time, he did put up a fight before Panther managed to put him on the defensive with this claws. Worth noting that T'Challa also had superior gear along with his own physical stats and skill.

What I am getting at is, even if Panther is the better fighter, Bucky was able to hang with him.

Okay, but Bucky still used his strength advantage. More than once. And not to mention that Steve was pretty roughed up beforehand(the bus accident). That would also explain how Steve was able to defeat him fair and square, while holding back.

Using his strength advantage does not preclude the fact that he was able to throw down with him. You are right about the bus crash, but he was knocked out for a minute tops and showed no signs about being hindered to any significant degree.

Yes, Steve wanted to complete his mission, but he had absolutely no intention of hurting Bucky. He made it clear during that fight. And him giving up has nothing to do with their skill. Steve gave up because, well, he wanted to bring Bucky back. Which he succeeded in btw.

It's not that he wanted to, it's that he needed to. Until the last portion of their fight that is. but at that point he had already completed his mission. He surely didn't seem to be holding back that much when fighting him. As a matter of fact, he even went far as to break Bucky's arm in order to make him give up the computer chip. Again, Bucky's eventual sloppiness is something to be considered too.

I never said Steve gave up because he was outclassed in skill.

She got choked because he outright overpowered her. Fight other fights of Natasha. Its usually game over for her opponent when she gets them in a thigh hold. She couldn't do it to him because, well, he was considerably stronger than her.

And it's definitely a win for Bucky. But only because he could take those hits. If he didn't have enhancement, Natasha would have had him.

And I would argue that if he wanted, he could have easily smashed her head against a wall or slammed her into the ground. The fact that he didn't do anything while she was wailing on him shows that he just didn't care too much about it.

As for Natasha attacking him with 2 other people, no. Tony was already out of picture.

I was talking about Sharon Carter and another shield agent IIRC. She definitely wasn't alone.

Thea definitely is up there. Diggle doesn't have many feats against top tier opponents, though he was able to match China White for as long as they fought(who bested Oliver once and stalemated once in S1).

I honestly don't see what Thea has done to make her a top tier combatant. As for Diggle, beating China White is good and all, but she beat a season 1 Oliver, who wasn't as skilled and experienced as he as now

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@brucerogers:

But never keeping up would imply he was unable to land any hits or parry his attacks. As for getting rescued, like I said, he wasn't in the right frame of mind when fighting him during the first two times. As for the third time, he did put up a fight before Panther managed to put him on the defensive with this claws. Worth noting that T'Challa also had superior gear along with his own physical stats and skill.

What I am getting at is, even if Panther is the better fighter, Bucky was able to hang with him.

Well, that's just a cop out. Whatever state of mind Bucky was in, it was never implied that it affected his fighting ability of all thing. And landing 2 hits before ultimately getting knocked down in not the definition of matching someone. Bucky was definitely not able to hang with Panther. Steve was. Bucky simply wasn't.

Using his strength advantage does not preclude the fact that he was able to throw down with him. You are right about the bus crash, but he was knocked out for a minute tops and showed no signs about being hindered to any significant degree.

Just because Steve wasn't limping or anything doesn't mean he was not affected by the crash. I mean, he did get KOed.

It's not that he wanted to, it's that he needed to. Until the last portion of their fight that is. but at that point he had already completed his mission. He surely didn't seem to be holding back that much when fighting him. As a matter of fact, he even went far as to break Bucky's arm in order to make him give up the computer chip. Again, Bucky's eventual sloppiness is something to be considered too.

I never said Steve gave up because he was outclassed in skill.

Steve did everything he could to avoid hurting Bucky. Whenever he knocked Bucky down, instead of wailing on him like he could have, he instead planted chip. So he could complete his mission without hurting Bucky.

And he wasn't trying to break Bucky's arm, he was trying to dislocate it. There's a huge difference.

And I would argue that if he wanted, he could have easily smashed her head against a wall or slammed her into the ground. The fact that he didn't do anything while she was wailing on him shows that he just didn't care too much about it.

Really? He was trying to make it out of a building where people with guns were after him and he was showing off his strength? The fact that he didn't do anything while she was elbowing him in head means that he couldn't. He was probably too stunned or by her onslaught or was actually feeling her blows to a degree.

I was talking about Sharon Carter and another shield agent IIRC. She definitely wasn't alone.

There was no other shield agent, IIRC.

I honestly don't see what Thea has done to make her a top tier combatant. As for Diggle, beating China White is good and all, but she beat a season 1 Oliver, who wasn't as skilled and experienced as he as now

I have already said this many times. She matched and once bested Malcolm. And even S1 Oliver was more skilled than Natasha.

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Bucky is a beast for this team. Come on put some restriction on the guy

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Bucky all rounds. Last round will be tough for him

Round 1: He is just better H2H and more durable. He stood against Black Panther who is far superior in H2H to anyone on team Arrow.

Round 2: Cry will stun him, but won't do much.

Round 3: Without the bows, I don't see much happening in favour of CW (show) team.

Then again, with it being a show, they have to be punching bags.

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#139  Edited By brucerogers

@rbt: Well, that's just a cop out. Whatever state of mind Bucky was in, it was never implied that it affected his fighting ability of all thing. And landing 2 hits before ultimately getting knocked down in not the definition of matching someone. Bucky was definitely not able to hang with Panther. Steve was. Bucky simply wasn't.

Since T'Challa pretty much attacked him when he was in the middle of escaping that apartment, it goes to show that fighting him wasn't his priority at that moment. He just wanted to get the hell away from there.

You are also ignoring their first fight where Bucky knocked him down on the floor, albeit temporarily. If he was not in his league as you claim, he wouldn't have been able to accomplish that. Worth noting that whenever Panther seemed to beat him or knock him down, he had his suit and his indestructible claws with him, while Bucky had nothing but his cybernetic arm, so it wasn't only due to skill.

Again I am not saying he is a superior fighter than T'Challa, but arguing that they are in the same league. Equals or not.

Just because Steve wasn't limping or anything doesn't mean he was not affected by the crash. I mean, he did get KOed.

Exactly. The fact that he wasn't limping or bleeding or showing any signs of being off his game proves that he wasn't affected by the crash to any significant degree. Also, the MCU wikia states that he possess an accelerated healing factor, so take from that what you will.

Steve did everything he could to avoid hurting Bucky. Whenever he knocked Bucky down, instead of wailing on him like he could have, he instead planted chip. So he could complete his mission without hurting Bucky.

That is because inserting the chip and stopping the helicarriers was his top priority. And why would he waste time by pounding on an already knocked down opponent( whom he had put to sleep via a sleeper hold no less), when he still had a mission to finish and didn't have any time to lose?. That makes no sense.

Again just because he cared for Bucky and would have preferred to not fight him, that doesn't mean he wouldn't if he had to, especially since millions of lives were at stake there. You are exaggerating the holding back part a little too much.

And he wasn't trying to break Bucky's arm, he was trying to dislocate it. There's a huge difference.

Does it matter?. He still hurt him, didn't he?

Really? He was trying to make it out of a building where people with guns were after him and he was showing off his strength? The fact that he didn't do anything while she was elbowing him in head means that he couldn't. He was probably too stunned or by her onslaught or was actually feeling her blows to a degree.

I am not saying he did what he did to explicitly show off his strength, but there wasn't anyone conscious else in that room save for T'Challa, whom he did not see coming.

What do you mean he 'couldn't'?. He slammed her on the table and nearly killed her with a choke. If he really was in any danger from her, he would have tried grabbing her hands or something, when he did no such thing. No, he knew he could take her blows and just soaked it up for a second or so, until he reached the table.

There was no other shield agent, IIRC.

Maybe, but she still had Sharon with her and they zerg rushed him.

I have already said this many times. She matched and once bested Malcolm. And even S1 Oliver was more skilled than Natasha.

Since you clearly have set the bar very high when it comes to skills, what has Malcolm actually done to call him a top tier fighter?, besides beating S1 Ollie and never replicating that again?. And correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't he without a hand when he fought Thea?

I disagree with S1 Ollie being more skilled than Natasha, but that discussion is for another time.

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@brucerogers:

I think we have completely derailed from our inital argument. Let me restate that.

Oliver is decently more skilled than Bucky. I don't think we are disagreeing there. I have posted a scan of him making a Mirakuru user bleed, so he definitely has strength and striking power to hurt Bucky. I have also posted a scan of him using a pressure point move to instantly decap a physically superior opponent. Also, Oliver can definitely take hits from Bucky. I can point out his several ridiculous durability feats to back that statement up if you want. Diggle has always been portrayed as stronger than Oliver, so he should be able to hurt Bucky as well. As for taking hits from Bucky, Diggle was tanking kicks from a Mirakuru powered Isobel, so that's taken care of. I am not even counting Thea and Laurel yet.

Now, why do you think that the team, where at least two member are more than capable of hurting Bucky and taking hits from him with at least one being significantly more skilled, would not be able to take him down?

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If Oliver and Thea had their standard gear in R3 then they might stand a chance. But under these conditions Bucky takes all three rounds handily.

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Stefano

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Bucky wins, he has far superior stats and comparable fighting skill. Bucky routinely survives huge falls with no damage, no one in team arrow can hit with the Force needed to hurt Bucky. not to mention he is fast enough to block bullets with is metal arm.