Who exceeds the infinity gauntlet?

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Shuma-Gorath

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#151  Edited By Shuma-Gorath

@laflux said:

@Killemall: BTW what ever happened to Shuma-Gorath (the guy on Comicvine)?

Shuma-Gorath shall respond to your summon, fleshling! Ever since Vision stabbed me with the Spear of Destiny I have had to spend time away scheming my next approach to conquering Earth and all its mortals.

@Killemall said:

@laflux said:

@Killemall: BTW what ever happened to Shuma-Gorath (the guy on Comicvine)?

Not sure man, he was very credible when it comes to debating. I actually respect debating with him, at least he comes up with scans and evidence to back up his claim, and was fairly knowledgeable. I respect that dude.

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#152  Edited By laflux

@Shuma-Gorath: Oh well, its nice to have you back :) . If you ever need a body to possess, well, you know were to look :P

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Killemall

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#153  Edited By Killemall

@Shuma-Gorath said:

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None like Shuma Gorath? LOL

Giant Squid says hello:

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Shuma-Gorath

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#154  Edited By Shuma-Gorath

@laflux said:

@Shuma-Gorath: Oh well, its nice to have you back :) . If you ever need a body to possess, well, you know were to look :P

I shall keep this in mind. Perhaps that fool Cyttorak's ego will be wiped clean if his avatar is rendered helpless by one of my own...

@Killemall said:

@Shuma-Gorath said:

None like Shuma Gorath? LOL

Giant Squid says hello:

I see no lasers of chaotic energy shooting from its eyes - - a cheap imitation, I say!

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Sy8000

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#155  Edited By Sy8000

@Killemall said:

@highaccuser said:

Thats my point. Gender is irrelevent. And if Nemesis isnt the infinity being what is she? When she commited suicide, it was stated that she fromed dust that would become the foundation of reality, in which case the gems are the rest of her energy, the rest could well have been recollected upon reformation. Neither of us has any canon proof to discount the other. Also, cytorrak above the IG, really? His best feat is imprisioning galactus.

I could roll with Gender being equivalent, the point was there is nothing to suggest Nemesis was greater than IG, let alone alone gems that had gained sentinence when they were clearly not in unison and hence no Nemesis to begin with.

Furthermore, we have seen an incomplete IG merge 2 realities, we have also seen incomplete IG clearly superior against ultimate nullifier , the weapon that has destroyed and re-created entire multiverse.

On panel, the only superior to IG thus far have been TOAA or his representative Living Tribunal, which is backed by bios as well.

When did an incomplete IG merge realities? And how is that a greater feat than making one? Im not saying ego gem gives power, im saying the union did. I thought of the UN as only restarting reality. Time and reality gems might not have been tapping into more power, but there is (probably) no actual stated proof of that. Not all beliefs are justified by continuity. There are likely many unproven but accepted theroies. Oh and Shuma-Gorath? Is Ftaghn supposed to be the many angled ones god?

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god_spawn

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#156  Edited By god_spawn  Moderator

@Ohgawd:

I'll fill your inbox with whatever as long as I feel like replying to your post. And using the words 'irrelevant diatribe' doesn't make you sound smart, just pretentious. I mean honestly, who talks like that normally?

You reply with what is necessary to the thread. You're trying to flame bait, have derailed this thread and have been attacking users. So I'd back away from responding unless you do debate and stay on topic and do so in a respectable manner. 1st warning.

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Shuma-Gorath

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#157  Edited By Shuma-Gorath

@highaccuser said:

Oh and Shuma-Gorath? Is Ftaghn supposed to be the many angled ones god?

Ftaghn was used by Lord Mar-Vell as a word to summon our presence to the site of the Necropsy ritual. It is similar to the word "fhtagn", which in HP Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos translates to "waits" or "dreams" in the phrase "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" (In his house at R'lyeh, dead Cthulhu waits dreaming).

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Killemall

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#158  Edited By Killemall

@highaccuser said:

When did an incomplete IG merge realities?

Infinity Wars.

And how is that a greater feat than making one?

Its comparable, one universe vs universe +, 2 universes.

Futhermore, better feats was owning UN, or being able to affect realities outside marvel multiverse all the way from 616, being able to punk Eternity with all other abstract when Dormammu with Eternity's power created his own universe, The Dormammu Verse.

Time gem alone froze the time steam across the multiverse when Rune had it, the only person unaffected was of course the neckless boss LT.

Adam Warlock with Soul gem destroyed an entire timeline that created Magus. One gem before creation of Nemesis like above.

Small portion of power unleased from reality gem by Goddess nearly destroyed entire reality (universe).

Thanos was in fact contemplating whether to change the 616 such that Lady death with fall in love with him, with but 1 reality gem.

It was said that Thor with power gem would become threat to ALL realities, eventually.

So yeah i think there is plenty of feats to support IG is above someone who can simply recreated a big bang, i can provide cans for all these claims should you require it.

Also not sure if you were aware, Infinity War pretty much clearly puts an incomplete IG as more powerful than cosmic cube, and we have more impressive feats than creating a unvierse performed by Cosmic cubes:

1. In Earth 9777 cosmic cube was broken into small peices, which was given to individual heroes and the cube created a reality (universe) for each one of them.

2. Korvac with a comic cube created the reality (universe) 100 times over.

So i honestly dont think creating a universe would put you above IG.

Im not saying ego gem gives power, im saying the union did.

Still dont follow, powers comes from the 6 gem, which is exactly what the IG has. How would Nemesis be more powerful than 6 gems if you agree Ego only gives the gems sentience? After all that what Nemesis said without ego gem we are a tool with ego gem were are sentient.

Time and reality gems might not have been tapping into more power, but there is (probably) no actual stated proof of that.

More powers than the actual complete Infinity Gauntlet, when they were alone? Tapping more powers from where? Nemesis wasnt even present when Gems were alone, Nemesis exists only when gems are brought together. Besides i have given you other feats above.

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Sy8000

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#159  Edited By Sy8000

Futhermore, better feats was owning UN, or being able to affect realities outside marvel multiverse all the way from 616, being able to punk Eternity with all other abstract when Dormammu with Eternity's power created his own universe, The Dormammu Verse.

Your resourcefullness amazes me. I once accidentally thought universe creating was a phoenix level feat, but to many people disagree. Point is i believe eternities power could create a universe. If you have scans proving that then you clearly are right.

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Sy8000

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#160  Edited By Sy8000


1. In Earth 9777 cosmic cube was broken into small peices, which was given to individual heroes and the cube created a reality (universe) for each one of them.

2. Korvac with a comic cube created the reality (universe) 100 times over.

So i honestly dont think creating a universe would put you above IG.

 
 U Sure those weren't pocket universes? I dont belive Cosmic cubes can create universes, i mean They barely exceed galactus collectively.
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Hyper_God

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#161  Edited By Hyper_God

@highaccuser said:

1. In Earth 9777 cosmic cube was broken into small peices, which was given to individual heroes and the cube created a reality (universe) for each one of them.

U Sure those weren't pocket universes? I dont belive Cosmic cubes can create universes, i mean

They barely exceed galactus collectively.

2. Korvac with a comic cube created the reality (universe) 100 times over.

So i honestly dont think creating a universe would put you above IG.

Magus's feats with 5 CCUs disagree with this assertion . Many different CCUs have feats all over the place , but theoretically(at their full potential) , they can come close to the power of the infinity gems .

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#162  Edited By Deadgod

@Killemall said:

@Deadgod said:

naah i am not talking about his normal version , in Final Crisis he appeared in his true form of embodiment of evil whose mere presence was collapsing time & space , just by refusing to allow himself to die. Uxas was just holding onto the reality with the singularity so powerful that was dragging the whole multiverse down with him in his black hole & he didn't have to attack any universe or anything , he did it all that just by sitting on his throne & possessing a weaker human body. This gotta put him above IG

Still doesnt put you above Infinity Gauntlet, Abraxas was doing all of these as well, and we know he is but an abstract.

Cosmic cube being, thing confirmed to be below IG in power level, have done similar stuffs as well, in fact a fight between caused trans-multiversal damage.

oh i see , thanks for correcting btw what do you think about his other powerful version Soulfire Darkseid , he was able to stalemate the Source ,should he be above the IG?

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#163  Edited By Sy8000
@Hyper_God  said: 

@highaccuser said:

1. In Earth 9777 cosmic cube was broken into small peices, which was given to individual heroes and the cube created a reality (universe) for each one of them.

U Sure those weren't pocket universes? I dont belive Cosmic cubes can create universes, i mean

They barely exceed galactus collectively.

2. Korvac with a comic cube created the reality (universe) 100 times over.

So i honestly dont think creating a universe would put you above IG.

Magus's feats with 5 CCUs disagree with this assertion . Many different CCUs have feats all over the place , but theoretically(at their full potential) , they can come close to the power of the infinity gems .

I can go with that, but what feats? Their scale might differ too greatly from universe creating. Plus i want to rate their power.
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Sy8000

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#164  Edited By Sy8000

Also, Kubik and Kosmos stated that a single celestial outclasses them.

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LubeMan

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#165  Edited By LubeMan

@Deadgod said:

@Killemall said:

@Deadgod said:

naah i am not talking about his normal version , in Final Crisis he appeared in his true form of embodiment of evil whose mere presence was collapsing time & space , just by refusing to allow himself to die. Uxas was just holding onto the reality with the singularity so powerful that was dragging the whole multiverse down with him in his black hole & he didn't have to attack any universe or anything , he did it all that just by sitting on his throne & possessing a weaker human body. This gotta put him above IG

Still doesnt put you above Infinity Gauntlet, Abraxas was doing all of these as well, and we know he is but an abstract.

Cosmic cube being, thing confirmed to be below IG in power level, have done similar stuffs as well, in fact a fight between caused trans-multiversal damage.

oh i see , thanks for correcting btw what do you think about his other powerful version Soulfire Darkseid , he was able to stalemate the Source ,should he be above the IG?

No, he shouldn't, and no, he's not! The Source that he fought wasn't even close to the entirety of what Thanos accomplished and defeated in the original IG mini and leading up to it!

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#166  Edited By LubeMan

@Killemall said:

@laflux said:

Meh- I think Fan-Wanking serves an equal purpose :)

Point he is trying to make is that its from one person, who has few accounts, one of which is 7am.

And its only in this site people actually think Cyttorak even stands a chance against IG.

amongst other characters, i've noticed here! No offence, but alot of over blown diatribe can be found here!

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#167  Edited By Killemall

@LubeMan said:

amongst other characters, i've noticed here! No offence, but alot of over blown diatribe can be found here!

Very true. When i intially began debating in comicvine people would say oh he is extra-dimensional and he wins, and i really thought oh extra-dimensional has to mean something mega, gega powerful. Turns out its all plain false and extra-dimension is just a realm that lack a cosmic compass (Eternity/ Infinity/ Death and Obvilion) and generally lies outside Marvel multiverse.

I can, to some extent, understand why people would believe someone like Sise Neg might be a match for IG, because he has but 1 feat and we dont know his true potential. The rest seems a bit mis-understood, and there is no way in hell someone like Dormammu would be above IG, thats just flat out ridiculous.

That being said IG is going to get nerfed out soon. Hickman has NA assemble 616 IG current to deal a universal threat that could potentially lead to omniversal. Written properly the story should just end the moment IG is properly assembled but we all know thats not going to happen.

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LubeMan

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#168  Edited By LubeMan

@Killemall said:

@LubeMan said:

amongst other characters, i've noticed here! No offence, but alot of over blown diatribe can be found here!

Very true. When i intially began debating in comicvine people would say oh he is extra-dimensional and he wins, and i really thought oh extra-dimensional has to mean something mega, gega powerful. Turns out its all plain false and extra-dimension is just a realm that lack a cosmic compass (Eternity/ Infinity/ Death and Obvilion) and generally lies outside Marvel multiverse.

I can, to some extent, understand why people would believe someone like Sise Neg might be a match for IG, because he has but 1 feat and we dont know his true potential. The rest seems a bit mis-understood, and there is no way in hell someone like Dormammu would be above IG, thats just flat out ridiculous.

That being said IG is going to get nerfed out soon. Hickman has NA assemble 616 IG current to deal a universal threat that could potentially lead to omniversal. Written properly the story should just end the moment IG is properly assembled but we all know thats not going to happen.

I totally agree as to your first paragraph in using logic in battles around here. As to Sise-Neg, not sure where to even go there? So much is involved there, using so many elements, planning etc to say that he alone can stand up to the power of the IG, ie he has total master over souls, infinit power, space, time manipulation etc just makes no sense to me, but that's just me.

as to your last paragraph, you've really peaked my curiosity! Trying to wrap my head around your statement, as i've been out of the loop for a bit? Very curious now.

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Killemall

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#169  Edited By Killemall

@highaccuser said:

Your resourcefullness amazes me. I once accidentally thought universe creating was a phoenix level feat, but to many people disagree. Point is i believe eternities power could create a universe. If you have scans proving that then you clearly are right.

Phoenix has done absolutely nothing to suggest she or it was responsible for creating universe. And Phoenix is an entity often over-wanked the hell out in comicvine, for reason unknown.

During Defenders Volume 3, Dormammu does create his own universe using Eternity's power, his universe is oftentime called Dormammu Verse or Earth 5113

@highaccuser said:

U Sure those weren't pocket universes? I dont belive Cosmic cubes can create universes, i mean They barely exceed galactus collectively.

They could very well be pocket universe, but create so many pocket universe out of a broken cosmic cube is still very awesome feat.

Also not sure where you are getting cosmic cube collectively is barely above Galctus. Actually CCU and their feats drawf that of Galactus:

1. Thanos with a CCU replaced the sentience of the universe (Eternity) during his first story arc.

2. Doom with the power of Galactus got owned by Reed Richards with cosmic cube, absolutely owned

Cosmic cubes when used properly are just mega badass.

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Alyssabird

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#170  Edited By Alyssabird

Batman once beat the IG... does that count?

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Killemall

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#171  Edited By Killemall

@LubeMan said:

I totally agree as to your first paragraph in using logic in battles around here. As to Sise-Neg, not sure where to even go there? So much is involved there, using so many elements, planning etc to say that he alone can stand up to the power of the IG, ie he has total master over souls, infinit power, space, time manipulation etc just makes no sense to me, but that's just me.

as to your last paragraph, you've really peaked my curiosity! Trying to wrap my head around your statement, as i've been out of the loop for a bit? Very curious now.

Oh Sise Neg thing is a bit complicated. He was just a normal mage much like Dr. Strange, but his whole point was that the amount of mystical universe at any point in the universe is limited. So he eventually travel back in time, progressively collected and absorbing more powers. So there was a lot of prep involved but the point was he progressively gets more powerful. It was stated that he would be the master of all time and space by the time he absorbed mystical energy from the universe alone, but we see him drawing and absorbing mystical energies from the void beyond the universe. Then once he is all powerful and becomes a god after having absorbed most of shuma gorath's power he decides to re-created the big bang, but create the universe in his own image, which was always his objective. However by the time he gets his god hood he realises the universe is the best it is, so he decides to changes nothing and re-create the big bang just the way it happened before. After that he is never seen or heard of again.

In short what we know of Sise Neg is by the end of the series he was powerful enough to re-create a big bang, however he did so rather easily and has never shown any sort of limit. His on panel feat still fall short of IG, but we dont know a true limit to his powers.

As per the second thing, in Marvel Now, Hickman is writing New Avengers and Avengers simultaneously (i have only read first 2 issues, 3rd was released this week but i get the issue a bit late, Australia is slower than US in terms of when comics arrive). What happened here is, various universes are connected together via earth, someone in an alternate earth destroyed it. The problem now is, this destuction has a potential to lead a chain reaction, which would lead to destruction of all the earth in the multiverse and the destruction is to spread beyond (once you say beyond multiverse i assume we are talking omniversal, although the word omniverse has not been mentioned). So in order to fight back this threat Illuminati from New Avengers decide to assemble their Infinity Gauntlet. As of issue two the infinity gauntlet is still incomplete and has only 4 gems lets see where this goes. If you have not been following Marvel Now, i would recommend Avengers and New Avengers its pretty good. The rest meh not so much.

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LubeMan

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#172  Edited By LubeMan

@Killemall said:

@LubeMan said:

I totally agree as to your first paragraph in using logic in battles around here. As to Sise-Neg, not sure where to even go there? So much is involved there, using so many elements, planning etc to say that he alone can stand up to the power of the IG, ie he has total master over souls, infinit power, space, time manipulation etc just makes no sense to me, but that's just me.

as to your last paragraph, you've really peaked my curiosity! Trying to wrap my head around your statement, as i've been out of the loop for a bit? Very curious now.

Oh Sise Neg thing is a bit complicated. He was just a normal mage much like Dr. Strange, but his whole point was that the amount of mystical universe at any point in the universe is limited. So he eventually travel back in time, progressively collected and absorbing more powers. So there was a lot of prep involved but the point was he progressively gets more powerful. It was stated that he would be the master of all time and space by the time he absorbed mystical energy from the universe alone, but we see him drawing and absorbing mystical energies from the void beyond the universe. Then once he is all powerful and becomes a god after having absorbed most of shuma gorath's power he decides to re-created the big bang, but create the universe in his own image, which was always his objective. However by the time he gets his god hood he realises the universe is the best it is, so he decides to changes nothing and re-create the big bang just the way it happened before. After that he is never seen or heard of again.

In short what we know of Sise Neg is by the end of the series he was powerful enough to re-create a big bang, however he did so rather easily and has never shown any sort of limit. His on panel feat still fall short of IG, but we dont know a true limit to his powers.

As per the second thing, in Marvel Now, Hickman is writing New Avengers and Avengers simultaneously (i have only read first 2 issues, 3rd was released this week but i get the issue a bit late, Australia is slower than US in terms of when comics arrive). What happened here is, various universes are connected together via earth, someone in an alternate earth destroyed it. The problem now is, this destuction has a potential to lead a chain reaction, which would lead to destruction of all the earth in the multiverse and the destruction is to spread beyond (once you say beyond multiverse i assume we are talking omniversal, although the word omniverse has not been mentioned). So in order to fight back this threat Illuminati from New Avengers decide to assemble their Infinity Gauntlet. As of issue two the infinity gauntlet is still incomplete and has only 4 gems lets see where this goes. If you have not been following Marvel Now, i would recommend Avengers and New Avengers its pretty good. The rest meh not so much.

Wow, your from Australia too? cool :-) oh, and thanx for the heads up, you've given me the most informative view/info on Sise Neg without the trumpets and all the rest. As to Marvel now, no, fortunately or unfortunately, I've had to let go my comic subscription at my local comic shop due to finance and keep telling myself i'll go trade (hopefully, one day) but i'm going to keep an eye out for certain comics like thor and Hulk, who's a favourite, but have had to drop from time to time depending on stories/writers/artists, and the one's you've mentioned, since i've always had an interst in the IG and it's main and original handler, Thanos!

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#173  Edited By MrMaster

@Killemall said:

Also not sure where you are getting cosmic cube collectively is barely above Galctus. Actually CCU and their feats drawf that of Galactus:

1. Thanos with a CCU replaced the sentience of the universe (Eternity) during his first story arc.

2. Doom with the power of Galactus got owned by Reed Richards with cosmic cube, absolutely owned

Cosmic cubes when used properly are just mega badass.

Hey there friend. Aside from big G's power ... Doom aslo had "the Ultimate Machine," "the Sacred Helix of Randac" & "the Cosmic Control Rod."

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Killemall

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#174  Edited By Killemall

@MrMaster said:

Hey there friend. Aside from big G's power ... Doom aslo had "the Ultimate Machine," "the Sacred Helix of Randac" & "the Cosmic Control Rod."

Haha yeah that makes it sound more posh :)

If you notice these are "your" scans btw ;)

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#175  Edited By MrMaster

:)

@Killemall said:

@LubeMan said:

amongst other characters, i've noticed here! No offence, but alot of over blown diatribe can be found here!

extra-dimensional

Turns out its all plain false and extra-dimension is just a realm that lack a cosmic compass (Eternity/ Infinity/ Death and Obvilion) and generally lies outside Marvel multiverse.

Actually friend, "Extra-Dimension" stands for anything located outside the 616 Reality.

Like the Micro-Cosmos that contains the Microverse: ~~~~> ....

================================================

That aside ... The Infinity Being and Nemesisare one and the same. (it's appearance means nothing - it was obviously meant to be the same entity)

The only difference is that Nemesis was made vulnerable due to the now sentient Gems struggling for control. (plot device)

But, that didn't stop it's incredible power from wrecking shop across the Omniverse!

It seems Nemesis is being unintentionally downplayed, because the info concerning its Feats is lacking.

Nemesis = Infinity Being = 616 IG ... There were several feats in the Ultraverse Arc, and the Nemesis blinking the entire 616 Universe and the entire Ultraverse is small potatoes to its Other feats is said arc.

Nemesis and/or Gems' Feats: (aside from multi-universal annihilation across multi-Multiversal scales) ... Remember, Ultraverse and 616 are withIN Two separate MultiverseS.

1) Nemesis broke down the Walls between All RealitieS when she obliterated 616 and the Ultraverse.

2) Nemesis erased EVERY version of Alternate UltraForce and Avenger there is, in one swoop. (deliberately allowing only 616 Avengers and Prime Ultras alive)

3) When Nemesis was split, & the Gems went separate, the "remaining energy" from the 6 Gems, like waves crashed on the Continuum creating UniverseS back to back on top of the Ultraverse. (note: that's not the IG's power, not even an Incomplete IG's power ... that's just the remaining energy AFTER the Gems went off on their own) ... wow! ... So to be clear .. A fraction of the 616 IG's power ("some left over energy") to be exact, was creating UniverseS on top of each other.

4) Amber Hunt (who had connected with the Ego Gem) using the Time and Reality Gem was able to undue everything above, re-created everything back to normal, and released the Waves as harmless energy ... but she was unable to stop the First Wave again. It was stated that the "repercussions" of the First Wave could only be guessed.

5) In a follow up tie-in we learn of the "repercussions" as a scene is depicted where Juggs was banished too in those days which was the Crimson Cosmos, a place withIN its own space between realities. We see said Wave (fractionalized IG power) crash into this place and we read: "This World between Worlds ...aWave of energyunknown suddenly sweeps across himfrom Everywhere and Nowhere at once...through All That Is or Ever Was... As Reality ends."

6) Remember Amber Hunt absorbed and released the remaining Nemesis Waves as harmless energy. Evidently, she still had a sliver of what she released. Well, with said sliver, Amber was able to shatter then remake at-least Two MultiverseS (housing 616 and the other housing Ultraverse) or possibly the Omniverse entire. (not sure, still researching) This is how it reads: "Across Two Dimensions, shattering the hidden SpaceS between ...Ultras & mutants buffeted back & forth ,,,from Universe to near Universe,Reality to distant Reality...From long before the beginning of Time to far beyond the End."

All On Panel!

========================================================

Respect the 616 IG friends!

Hey Killemall, I have all this scanned at KMC and set-up just the same, can I direct you to it cause I dislike the scan posting format here.

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Killemall

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#176  Edited By Killemall

@MrMaster said:

Respect the 616 IG friends!

Hey Killemall, I have all this scanned at KMC and set just the same, can I direct you to it cause I dislike the scan posting format here.

Sure, i can post all those scans here on your behalf :)

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#177  Edited By MrMaster

@Killemall said:

@MrMaster said:

Respect the 616 IG friends!

Hey Killemall, I have all this scanned at KMC and set just the same, can I direct you to it cause I dislike the scan posting format here.

Sure, i can post all those scans here on your behalf :)

Thanx!

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=572339&pagenumber=6#post14095339

I was having a heated debate concerning other subjects but this saw its way in.

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#178  Edited By MrMaster

I just noticed yall can't see that mini image. What's the point of that scan-type? You can't really see/read anything. I must be using it incorrectly. :(

@MrMaster said:

:)

@Killemall said:

@LubeMan said:

amongst other characters, i've noticed here! No offence, but alot of over blown diatribe can be found here!

extra-dimensional

Turns out its all plain false and extra-dimension is just a realm that lack a cosmic compass (Eternity/ Infinity/ Death and Obvilion) and generally lies outside Marvel multiverse.

Actually friend, "Extra-Dimension" stands for anything located outside the 616 Reality.

Like the Micro-Cosmos that contains the Microverse: ~~~~>

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Sy8000

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#179  Edited By Sy8000
@Killemall said:

@highaccuser said:

Your resourcefullness amazes me. I once accidentally thought universe creating was a phoenix level feat, but to many people disagree. Point is i believe eternities power could create a universe. If you have scans proving that then you clearly are right.

Phoenix has done absolutely nothing to suggest she or it was responsible for creating universe. And Phoenix is an entity often over-wanked the hell out in comicvine, for reason unknown.

During Defenders Volume 3, Dormammu does create his own universe using Eternity's power, his universe is oftentime called Dormammu Verse or Earth 5113

@highaccuser said:

U Sure those weren't pocket universes? I dont belive Cosmic cubes can create universes, i mean They barely exceed galactus collectively.

They could very well be pocket universe, but create so many pocket universe out of a broken cosmic cube is still very awesome feat.

Also not sure where you are getting cosmic cube collectively is barely above Galctus. Actually CCU and their feats drawf that of Galactus:

1. Thanos with a CCU replaced the sentience of the universe (Eternity) during his first story arc.

2. Doom with the power of Galactus got owned by Reed Richards with cosmic cube, absolutely owned

Cosmic cubes when used properly are just mega badass.

Okay so clearly the IG is well above universe creating level. The cubes beating Galactus? Im okay with that except 1 thing: Kubik and Kosmos, Cosmic cube beings with equal power th the CCU's, stated a single celestial surpresses them. Galactus killed a celestial. Maybe CCU beings are less powerful than the objects? I dont think thats ever been suggested. Im ready to blame bad writing. 
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#180  Edited By Killemall

@MrMaster: If the image you posted in KMC are in tumbnails you can simply highlight the thumbnail and paste it here, it works just fine. If you have posted them as link you can also copy paste the link.

Furthermore, if you are uploading 1 scan at a time, always use the large button in the middle, that generally solves most problem.

Also do let me know if the bottom argument has something wrong, it normally works perfectly :)

A clear copy paste from Mr. Master argument in regards to Infinity Gauntlet (none of these are my scans or words)

-------------------------------------------------------------

First: The plot device used was a weakness given to Nemesis.

Nemesis was struggling for control of her being,

because the 6 Infinity Gems that make her up her totality had gained consciousness:

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13985810_Nem_weak2.jpg]

This no doubt, not only made Nemesis vulnerable, but insane:

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13985809_Nem_weak1.jpg]

-------------------------------------------------------------

Second: Although weakened due to the reasons above, she was still able to ...

... "Obliterate Two entire UniverseS" {one of which was 616} "In the blink of an eye."

Now, that may not seem like much, but those are the Two Prime Realities of Two separate MultiverseS.

Third: Evidently when Nemesis did this, she also broke down the walls between all realities.

Which lead to ALL Realities merging!

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13985851_IG_Nem_merges_Uni3.jpg]

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13985853_IG_Nem_merges_Uni4.jpg]

"Nemesis is still tinkering with Reality, and All the Walls have fallen down"

"Whatever -- Alternate versions of UltraForce & Avengers are coming from everywhere"

-------------------------------------------------------------

Fourth: Nemesis disintegrated EVERY version of Alternate UltraForce and Avenger there is,

in one swoop.

But with a plot twist ... (well, she's gotta lose after all, hahaha)

Nemesis allows the template versions of the Avengers and UltraForce to survive,

including the Black Knight lol.

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13985854_IG_Nem_merges_Uni5.jpg]

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13985855_IG_Nem_merges_Uni6.jpg]

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13985860_IG_Nem_merges_Uni7.jpg]

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13985865_IG_Nem_merges_Uni8.jpg]

"Either this is deliberate, or we got very, very lucky."

-------------------------------------------------------------

So when the Black Knight pulls off the inevitable "hero" move,

Nemesis' power is released and remakes everything.

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13985867_IG_Nem_merges_Uni9.jpg]

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13985868_IG_Nem_merges_Uni10.jpg]

I know it states, "Something bigger than us claps its hands, and the Universe blooms"

But what of every other Alternate Reality in existence that was affected here?

Remember Nemesis collapse the Walls between all universeS,

the Realities had merged with what Nemesis built out of the Ultraverse & 616.

Heck, yall KNOW she obliterate BOTH 616 and the Ultraverse,

so just with that it's impossible that only "a" Universe is at play here.

So, while the writer decided to focus on the parent Universe of the UltraForce,

there is no doubt Nemesis' power obliterate Two prime Realities across Two MultiverseS,

she also collapsed the Walls between All UniverseS, meshing all creation,

and finally her power fixed everything by remaking everything anew.

Anyway, after the splitting of Nemesis,

the Gems now conscious and independent, went off on their own.

4 had Nemesis' evil side (Power-Soul-Mind-Space)

1 was confused (Reality)

1 was sound with logic (Time)

But we also find out, the "remaining energy" from the 6 Gems, like waves

is now crashing on the Continuum creating UniverseS back to back on top of the Ultraverse.

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13994541_Gems1.jpg]

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13994560_N_Waves9.jpg]

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13994561_N_Waves10.jpg]

Note* That's a fraction of the IG's power we're talking about here.

As you can see,

not only were these Nemesis Waves (left-over energy of the Gems)

creating one Universe after another on top of each other ...

... but this madness was also going to "destroy All Realities"

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13994542_Gems2.jpg]

-------------------------------------------------------------

Proof it was only a fraction of the IG power at work here:

-------------------------------------------------------------

Again ...

It wasn't even the full power of the Gems,

it was only the "remaining energy" of the 6 Gems withIN Nemesis

AFTER they split from Nemesis that performed the feat.

This remaining energy of the Gems was called the Nemesis waves.

(as you can see, the Time Gem removed itself and the Reality Gem,

and only the 4 remained)

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13994543_Gems3.jpg]

That's Amber Hunt with Time & Reality Gem about to undo all the madness,

but as you can see, the first wave they could not stop.

More Proof on the Gems splitting up BEFORE the First Wave:

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13994545_Gems5.jpg]

--------------------------------------------------------------

This was the result of the first wave they could not stop:

That first Wave possibly re-created the Omniverse: (or at the very least Two MultiverseS)

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13994544_Gems4.jpg]

"The Universe shall have to stand the first wave. Its repercussionscan only be guessed"

Anyway, I say this because notice:

You have Ultraforce in Reality 93060 (separate Multiverse) there,

and a group from an alternate reality in the Utraverse Multiverse as well.

but ALSO ...

Spiderman in Reality 616 ...

Exiles in Reality 1218,

and other cats I don't recognize by name that are from separate universes as well.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I found more evidence to support my stance.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Further arcs had tie-ins to the story of Nemesis.

We see more of what the that First Wave did, you know,

the one that its "repercussions could only be guessed" ...

Guess no more.

Juggs was banished to the Crimson Cosmos sometime ago during this time.

The Crimson Cosmos is neither in the Ultraverse Multiverse, nor is it withIN 616,

it's in its own Space between realities.

Heh, That fractionalized IG power crashed right thorough Crimson land, and didn't stop there:

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13994551_N_Waves1.jpg]

"This World between Worlds ...

aWave of energyunknown suddenly sweeps across him

from Everywhere and Nowhere at once ...

...through All That Is or Ever Was... As Reality ends."

--------------------------------------------------------------

Remember Amber Hunt absorbed and released the remaining Nemesis Waves as harmless energy.

Evidently, she still had a sliver of what she released.

This is what the power withIN her was able to accomplish:

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13994552_N_Waves2.jpg]

[img=http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13994553_N_Waves3.jpg]

"Across Two Dimensions,shattering the hidden SpaceS between...

Ultras & mutants buffeted back & forth ,,,

from Universe to near Universe,

Reality to distant Reality...

From long before the beginning of Time to far beyond the End."

--------------------------------------------------------------

Imo, technically specking, this could mean all the Realities between 616 and the Ultraverse,

which means Two MultiverseS at the very least.

But when you take into account:

"Wave of energy...

from Everywhere and Nowhere at once ...

...through All That Is or Ever Was... As Reality ends."

and

"from Universe to near Universe,

Reality to distant Reality...

From long before the beginning of Time to far beyond the End."

It can just as easily mean the Omniverse, imo.

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#181  Edited By Killemall

@highaccuser said:

Okay so clearly the IG is well above universe creating level. The cubes beating Galactus? Im okay with that except 1 thing: Kubik and Kosmos, Cosmic cube beings with equal power th the CCU's, stated a single celestial surpresses them. Galactus killed a celestial. Maybe CCU beings are less powerful than the objects? I dont think thats ever been suggested. Im ready to blame bad writing.

I think thats just bad writing.

When Kubik faces Beyonder, among other things he actually holds Beyonder whole universe in his hand. I dont think Galactus is capable of doing that.

No Caption Provided
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#182  Edited By Sy8000
@Killemall said:

@highaccuser said:

Okay so clearly the IG is well above universe creating level. The cubes beating Galactus? Im okay with that except 1 thing: Kubik and Kosmos, Cosmic cube beings with equal power th the CCU's, stated a single celestial surpresses them. Galactus killed a celestial. Maybe CCU beings are less powerful than the objects? I dont think thats ever been suggested. Im ready to blame bad writing.

I think thats just bad writing.

When Kubik faces Beyonder, among other things he actually holds Beyonder whole universe in his hand. I dont think Galactus is capable of doing that.

No Caption Provided
Of course he cant. Its true that wikiapedia said a single celestial outclasses them, comicvine states the collective of the celestials does. Seeing as they beat the phoenix and goblin force, I believe the latter to be true
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#183  Edited By Killemall

@highaccuser: The whole race of celestial together should be enough thats just too much power when written properly. Besides all celestial arent same power level, look at Scanthan for example, he is a celestial yet clearly shown to be above Living Tribunal.

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#184  Edited By ShootingNova

@Killemall: The whole stuff about Protege and Scathan is just..... dumb.

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#185  Edited By Killemall

@ShootingNova said:

@Killemall: The whole stuff about Protege and Scathan is just..... dumb.

Well i initially thought the same, but giving a closer look at it, while that does raise a question how on earth did Scanthan as a celestial get as powerful, it sort of fit with the story itself. The story however doesnt fit with the continuity.

I posted the scan earlier in the thread, Scanthan was actually throughout the series treated with utmost respect, and was potrayed as Living Tribunal's Approval.

Protege instance does make sense because his ability was to copy people's powers, while initially was to copy when someone exhibits people power, it seem to improve later as being able to copy someone power provided he observes them for long enough. Protege was clearly childish as well throughout the arc, makes sense coz he was in fact just a kid. So what he did was copied LT powers as he seemed the flashiest but did not copy Scanthan's power who for the series was more powerful. A dumb mistake, which cost him dearly.

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#186  Edited By ShootingNova

@Killemall: Yes I know it doesn't fit. That was my point.

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#187  Edited By Killemall

@ShootingNova said:

@Killemall: Yes I know it doesn't fit. That was my point.

Cant argue with that, all i can say is its canon, backed by bio as well as incredibly stupid for a major arc (like House of M, Die by the Sword, Chaos Wars etc etc). So yeah at least it has that backing up, and besides it wasnt written by Leob or Bendis thats a big bonus no?

:p

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#188  Edited By ShootingNova

@Killemall: I realize that. Sometimes, there's canon things that shouldn't be canon.

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#189  Edited By Sy8000

I admit minimal knowledge of the arc, but my interperatation was that LT was more powerful than protege at that stage, but he could not attack protege because he had no way of denounce his claim of being TOAA. He was allowed to then kill him when scathan denounced proteges claim, making him an usurper and allowing LT to attack. for all his power, protege was bound to a human body which could not process all that power. U could argue mortal can wield infinity gems and HOTU, but those are specifically compatable for mortals. My theroy anyways.

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#190  Edited By MrMaster

^^^ Protege became more powerful than the LT, and that's about it good friend. Protege had the combined might of Mephisto (his daughter Malevolence) Beyonder, Hawkgod, Eternity, the LT and even the GOTG. lol. Protege's ability copy enhanced as the arc progressed, and by the time he bumped into Eternity & the LT, he was able to copy without power being displayed. That aside, we know Protege surpassed the LT because the LT needed to amp his own power via an outside source to judge Protege, even though Protege was being restrained physically by Scathan. Two separate Handbooks Celestial's & LT's agree) Oh and Scathan, that's no ordinary Celestial. That monster that will manifest 1000 years from now is a cosmic mystery. Imo, I have reasons to believe an agent sent by TOAA to stop the premature "God."

@highaccuser said:

Okay so clearly the IG is well above universe creating level. The cubes beating Galactus? Im okay with that except 1 thing: Kubik and Kosmos, Cosmic cube beings with equal power th the CCU's, stated a single celestial surpresses them. Galactus killed a celestial. Maybe CCU beings are less powerful than the objects? I dont think thats ever been suggested. Im ready to blame bad writing.

CCU > Cube Being ... CCUs are on auto program to limit themselves as they approach consciousness.

Beyonder is a special case though, because he never matured properly within a Containment Unit.

So while Beyonder was defeated by Kubik while he was still a Half-Cube Being, once Beyonder became whole after merging with Owen, his power skyrocketed.

Kosmos is also a limited version of Beyonder, and the "Maker" via plot was a joke in comparison with Beyonder and yet it still had enough power to reverse the "Crunch" on a whim. I'm not just suggesting this, it was made clear within stories concerning both incarnations. While Kosmos laid dying in Kubik's arms, he told Owen killing the Beyonder would wreck the Multiverse, and Thanos knew better than to kill the body of the "Maker" cause it would release the Beyonder's true essence, which was "Unlimted Power" ... this is Thanos talking after becoming "God" 3 times prior.

Anyway, it seems Beyonder (whole) is like an unrestricted CCU .. due to the fact his CCU energy was released violently into its own space where it lingered cluelessly until it discovered another reality. So, i.e. it was never nurtured in the proper manner as its siblings which is why it far surpasses them in power/importance. This was especially proven in 2010 when Wolverine, and Spiderman and Doom remade the Omniverse with most of Beyonder's power.

If I didn't know about Marvel's grasp and compliance with Cantor's "Levels of Infinity" logic, I would say CCU = IG.

One could argue BeyonderS Realm (race) = IG ... heck, I probably could.

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#191  Edited By Hyper_God

@MrMaster said:

One could argue BeyonderS Realm (race) = IG ... heck, I probably could.

You won't do that because you know better than anyone else about what Thanos unknowingly did to the Beyond Realm , about which the Beyonders were able to do absolutely nothing whatsoever .

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#192  Edited By Spartan101

with ALL its gems working together not a lot,hotu,beyonder etc,but not many.

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#193  Edited By Hyper_God

@highaccuser said:

I can go with that, but what feats? Their scale might differ too greatly from universe creating. Plus i want to rate their power.

Magus rendered Eternity comatose with their collective power , was able to disintegrate(using merely a fraction of the CCUs' power) Galactus , his ship along with Strange , Surfer and Nova , even while trying to tone down the power in order to NOT kill them , only delay them . That too from several dimensions away . Even then he was unsure whether he had overdone it , and was relieved when Galactus reformed himself .

The vast majority of the 5 CCUs' power was being used to hide himself from the Living Tribunal , keep Eternity asleep , along with designing a doppelganger universe and merge it with 616 . Very powerful indeed .

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#194  Edited By Sy8000
 Korvac with a comic cube created the reality (universe) 100 times over. 
When? Before or after he toke power from galactus' ship? Would even that combined power exceed the phoenix(who i agree is REALLY overblown)? Phoenix being incapable of making a universe. Even if the cubes did imprison eternity, he likley didnt resist defeat. his amorality prevented that when nightmare and dormmamu-beings far below him-defeated him. 
Also, what does everyone think about spectre(who ive decided is weaker) lucifer, michael, and multi-eternity(if he exists, logic states there is a multi-infinity,death, and oblivion.) 
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#195  Edited By BeaverSauce
No Caption Provided
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#196  Edited By BeaverSauce

@BeaverSauce said:

No Caption Provided

please lock this, because this is the best and only answer

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#197  Edited By Floopay

@Killemall:

You're the expert, but here's my list.

Extradimensional Beings - Maybe, hard to say. I doubt Thanos can kill them easily, that's for sure. Though 7am_Waking_Up_In_the_Morning makes a good point, if they are beyond the aspects of the infinity gauntlet, they should at least put up a good fight, even if they can't win.

Anything Omniversal as far as power threat - Self-explanatory. TOAA, LT, HOTU, Presence, Great Beast

Multiversal Busters - Characters who shatter universes and multiverses whenever they engage in combat, or get stressed, or just feel like it. Pre-Retcon Beyonder, MM, Lucifer, Michael, etc.

Plot-Device Masters - Classic Doctor Strange and Fate are good examples of these. Character's whose upper limits are only limited to what the author wants them to do.

Super-Artifact Wielders - Characters who wield an "Infinity Gauntlet" of their own, or another plot item that makes them god-like beings. Thought Robot, Anti-Life Equation, etc.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

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#198  Edited By Sy8000
@Floopay said:

@Killemall:

You're the expert, but here's my list.

Extradimensional Beings - Maybe, hard to say. I doubt Thanos can kill them easily, that's for sure. Though 7am_Waking_Up_In_the_Morning makes a good point, if they are beyond the aspects of the infinity gauntlet, they should at least put up a good fight, even if they can't win.


Oh this is pathetic. Extradimensional beings are powerful, but are wayyyy below abstracts, who thanos pwnd.@Floopay said:


Super-Artifact Wielders - Characters who wield an "Infinity Gauntlet" of their own, or another plot item that makes them god-like beings. Thought Robot, Anti-Life Equation, etc.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Thought robat and ALE are so far below the guantlet its is impossible to measure with human statistics and numbers.@Floopay said:

Plot-Device Masters - Classic Doctor Strange and Fate are good examples of these. Character's whose upper limits are only limited to what the author wants them to do.


No writer is dumb enough to make any hero that powerful. If strange could beat the guantlet, why have an army of heroes and cosmic beings go to war with it, when they could say "strange. go stop thanos" 
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#199  Edited By LubeMan

@Killemall said:

@highaccuser: The whole race of celestial together should be enough thats just too much power when written properly. Besides all celestial arent same power level, look at Scanthan for example, he is a celestial yet clearly shown to be above Living Tribunal.

I don't believe that is canon (Scathen saga)

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#200  Edited By Hyper_God

@Floopay: With the exception of the Omniversal powerhouses(and possibly the Superartifact users , and that's being generous seeing how there are few artifacts in comics which match the IG let alone surpass it) , none of the other beings you listed exceed the Infinity Gauntlet .