(VOTING) CAV: Harry Potter (TDLP) vs Dovaahkin (ILS)

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the_red_viper

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#101 the_red_viper  Moderator

@the_red_viper said:

@thedarklordpandamonium: *sigh*... OK... I think the "Disarm" strategy is just too much for you. Your arguments against that were just: "It takes too much time"-nope, game mechanics. "Harry is too boss for this to affect him"- I mean... c'mon...

For the record, the longbow in Skyrim is actually a longbow. Given that any other bow easily out-ranges it, it doesn't really matter whether they're reflex bows or anything.

BTW, @i_like_swords, why didn't you use Whirlwind Sprint right at the start and shover Miraak's Staff up Harry's a-hole? Sounds pretty effective to me...

Good strat actually.

Don't bother arguing the bow thing. He tries to belittle almost anything in game to make his case better. He even tried to compare in game Skyrim wildlife to earth wildlife...

*sigh* I know... I read the whole thing...

@the_red_viper:

It does, though. I mean, even at max power it still can't disarm anyone above level 30 (Harry has never been disarmed), and by then Harry would have drank the Felix and been untouchable, since it takes 2 seconds to say in all the playthroughs I've watched.

Also, I have no idea why.

Score's 3-2 now.

@reikai:

That would have been useful for ILS to bring up.

There's always a first time. Why wouldn't it disarm harry? I was never shot before, does that mean guns are uneffective against me? And it's more than 1 seconds because of game mechanics. Test it yourself: how long does it take you to shout three short words? It shouldn't take the Dragonborn any longer than that.

You havn't given any good argument against this strategy, so ILS wins. Don't be a sore loser.

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SuperDrummer

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Sure.

First off, the invisibility cloak is absolute invisibility, and negates all spells that would negate it's usefulness. You have to remember, this is a hallow, so actually if your taking the rout of hit & run, the broom would be a bad option (as it might show something miniscule, and thus the dragonborn would be at the advantage).

Next, it would have been very useful to point out that the magic resistance for the dragonborn caps at 85%, and although it is a very interesting to pull up canonical facts about wizards taking bullet level hits, it seems kinda... off. Like using inconsistencies to prove strength for no reason (Something I hate about Z-tards). I feel that if you are going to argue for a character, you should use the character as they are presented, not at the absolute maximum strength you can manage to worm out of cannon. Don't get me wrong, it was a very interesting argument, and I greatly respect the fact that you could find that, but it really isn't how harry is portrayed by any means and thus, in my opinion, shouldn't be the bases of an argument unless the other debater agrees to go to such lengths, and he obviously didn't go into lore.

  • All characters are bloodlusted
  • Random encounter
  • Harry is post-timeskip and assumed to know all spells

A blood-lusted post-timeskip Harry is terrifying, let alone knowing all spells. This is the boy who was fighting the strongest dark wizard of the century yearly starting at age eleven, killing him at age 17, all with morals on. Than you give him Auror training, and have him hunt down wizards for a living. Than give him all spells, and morals off. Yet, you still played him as though he was a seventh year, not even pointing out he has much more magical experience.

The plan in itself was kind of iffy, putting on the cloak and apperating while setting off a noise maker somewhere off immediately after and becoming virtually untraceable. Than a simple avada-kadavera would kill. Or, on the topic of apperation, he could have forced a tagalong, causing the dragonborn to splint. Also, once the summons came up, the imperious curse could have caused them to backfire on the user, causing a distraction for any number of very advanced magic offense.

Personally, I believe that you should have focused more on establishing that harry could infact hurt him, and than countered points instead of invalidating them (EX: Instead of forcing him to prove how fast a dragon is, point out that his agility ALREADY surpassed that of a dragon, in his fourth year actually, and it would be fairly easy to point out that HP dragons are at the very least in the same league as Skyrim dragons.)

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Thedarklordpandamonium

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@superdrummer said:

Sure.

First off, the invisibility cloak is absolute invisibility, and negates all spells that would negate it's usefulness. You have to remember, this is a hallow, so actually if your taking the rout of hit & run, the broom would be a bad option (as it might show something miniscule, and thus the dragonborn would be at the advantage).

Next, it would have been very useful to point out that the magic resistance for the dragonborn caps at 85%, and although it is a very interesting to pull up canonical facts about wizards taking bullet level hits, it seems kinda... off. Like using inconsistencies to prove strength for no reason (Something I hate about Z-tards). I feel that if you are going to argue for a character, you should use the character as they are presented, not at the absolute maximum strength you can manage to worm out of cannon. Don't get me wrong, it was a very interesting argument, and I greatly respect the fact that you could find that, but it really isn't how harry is portrayed by any means and thus, in my opinion, shouldn't be the bases of an argument unless the other debater agrees to go to such lengths, and he obviously didn't go into lore.

  • All characters are bloodlusted
  • Random encounter
  • Harry is post-timeskip and assumed to know all spells

A blood-lusted post-timeskip Harry is terrifying, let alone knowing all spells. This is the boy who was fighting the strongest dark wizard of the century yearly starting at age eleven, killing him at age 17, all with morals on. Than you give him Auror training, and have him hunt down wizards for a living. Than give him all spells, and morals off. Yet, you still played him as though he was a seventh year, not even pointing out he has much more magical experience.

The plan in itself was kind of iffy, putting on the cloak and apperating while setting off a noise maker somewhere off immediately after and becoming virtually untraceable. Than a simple avada-kadavera would kill. Or, on the topic of apperation, he could have forced a tagalong, causing the dragonborn to splint. Also, once the summons came up, the imperious curse could have caused them to backfire on the user, causing a distraction for any number of very advanced magic offense.

Personally, I believe that you should have focused more on establishing that harry could infact hurt him, and than countered points instead of invalidating them (EX: Instead of forcing him to prove how fast a dragon is, point out that his agility ALREADY surpassed that of a dragon, in his fourth year actually, and it would be fairly easy to point out that HP dragons are at the very least in the same league as Skyrim dragons.)

I actually made the bolded argument, lol. Read back through the thread.

The reason I didn't focus much on Harry is because ILS clearly had no idea what he could do (for example he didn't know a Protego was) so I could have made any claim I wanted and gotten away with it.

Either that, or ILS would have just wiki'd him and I would have gotten bored.

So I drew the topic onto Dovahkiin because we both actually knew about him.

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SuperDrummer

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#104  Edited By SuperDrummer

Personally, I believe that you should have focused more on establishing that harry could infact hurt him, and than countered points instead of invalidating them (EX: Instead of forcing him to prove how fast a dragon is, point out that his agility ALREADY surpassed that of a dragon, in his fourth year actually, and it would be fairly easy to point out that HP dragons are at the very least in the same league as Skyrim dragons.)

I actually made the bolded argument, lol. Read back through the thread.

The reason I didn't focus much on Harry is because ILS clearly had no idea what he could do (for example he didn't know a Protego was) so I could have made any claim I wanted and gotten away with it.

Either that, or ILS would have just wiki'd him and I would have gotten bored.

So I drew the topic onto Dovahkiin because we both actually knew about him.

That makes sense, and I must have missed it (I was chatting with someone at the time).

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zr0c00l

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#105  Edited By zr0c00l

@thedarklordpandamonium: deal, no spite henceforth. And you may be right i only remembered him being handed it after the new potions master had corked it pretty carefully. So id say hp uncorked it in prep for use.... But with hp u can always say with magic lol

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reikai

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Considering that any number of mages, necromancers, wizards and the like in Skyrim can throw fireballs, summon atronachs, shoot lightning, create wards and teleport, it should tell just how tough the Dragonborn is as he regularly butchers groups of the aforementioned figures.

As far as old wizards go, Harry's rival for years was Voldemort. The Dragonborn contended with the Dragon Priests, who were ancient sorcerers that gained powers from the Dragons, and returned as Lich's thousands of years after they had died and been sealed away. Including Miraak, who was also a Dragon Priest, and had accumulated power and knowledge within the realm of Hermaeus Mora, Apocrypha, on top of the fact he was the First Dragonborn.

In terms of powerful figures that each has had to contend with between Harry and the Dragonborn, the Dragonborn's are bigger, badder, and older. Which includes the likes of Alduin, the World-Eater, the son of a God, the head of those responsible for the creation of the universe (Mundus).

Dealing with Gods is a running theme in TES. The Hero of Kvatch had to gather power and contend against Jyggalag, Daedric Prince of Order and Logic. Jyggalag who had been cursed by the other Daedric Princes who got tired of him and turned him into Sheogorath.

And for a time Jygg and Sheo would switch back and forth, changing from order to chaos, serenity to madness, until the Sheogorath part of him charged and empowered the Hero to defeat his other self, and in so doing separated the two of them, becoming two separate Daedric Princes.

Harry deals with rogue wizards. Elder Scrolls Champions and Heroes deal with Gods.

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Thedarklordpandamonium

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@superdrummer:

So, er, so far you haven't really offered reasons for why ILS wins so much as you've offered reasons for why I didn't do such a good job, but I'm assuming you have something, so I'll put you down in the vote list.

@comicstooge@cadencev2@floopay@killemall@sheenlantern@dratini1331@captaindoeo@sovereign91001@dccomicsrule2011@jokergeist@diredrill@esquire@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk@omgomgwtfwtf@betatesthighlander1

The score is tied, 3-3! VOTE!

(also ignore everything after votes were called)

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OmgOmgWtfWtf

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TDLP put up a better argument, which has my vote. The whole point of CaV is debating skills and honestly, TDLP has much better points.

So he got my vote.

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Thedarklordpandamonium

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@omgomgwtfwtf said:

TDLP put up a better argument, which has my vote. The whole point of CaV is debating skills and honestly, TDLP has much better points.

So he got my vote.

mreeeeeeerh

I'm sorry but I cannot in good faith count your vote unless you have legitimate reasoning behind it, specific points.

For example:

"I bought the arguments that Dovahkiin would be too fast for Harry"

etc. would be reasons

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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@thedarklordpandamonium said:

@omgomgwtfwtf said:

TDLP put up a better argument, which has my vote. The whole point of CaV is debating skills and honestly, TDLP has much better points.

So he got my vote.

mreeeeeeerh

I'm sorry but I cannot in good faith count your vote unless you have legitimate reasoning behind it, specific points.

For example:

"The Felix Felicitis was honestly just too much of a factor"

"I bought the arguments that Harry would be faster than Dovahkiin"

"Harry just had more versatility based on the arguments I saw"

etc.

I'd laugh if he used one of those arguments you gave him word for word.

Like that is kind of vote swaying.

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Thedarklordpandamonium

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@i_like_swords:

I totally meant that last one to be something about Dovahkiin. >_<

I gave like the same exact examples to redviper on the last page.

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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@thedarklordpandamonium:

Neither of which he used.

You gave him the Felix example and the fumbling around example. He used the "Disarm is too much for Harry" argument, which you counted as a vote.

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Thedarklordpandamonium

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@i_like_swords:

Well...I mean, yeah, they were examples. They were supposed to show him what would actually count as reasons behind a vote, instead of just 'better argument'.

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@thedarklordpandamonium:

So we're agreed that OOWW can't now just use one of the examples you gave him since you can't influence a vote after voting starts?

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Thedarklordpandamonium

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@thedarklordpandamonium:

So we're agreed that OOWW can't now just use one of the examples you gave him since you can't influence a vote after voting starts?

wat.

Does it count as influencing a vote if he already voted for me/you? o_O

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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@i_like_swords said:

@thedarklordpandamonium:

So we're agreed that OOWW can't now just use one of the examples you gave him since you can't influence a vote after voting starts?

wat.

Does it count as influencing a vote if he already voted for me/you? o_O

He's placed a vote for you, but he hasn't given a sufficient reason. You presented him with three example reasons. I'm saying he shouldn't be able to use those reasons as you may have influenced him to choose that reason. He needs to make up his own one.

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Thedarklordpandamonium

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@i_like_swords:

Ah...okay.

I'll just make the examples out to be for the opposite side then, shall I?

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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@thedarklordpandamonium: You shouldn't really give people any examples. It's up to them to give valid reasoning, and limiting their options on what reasons to give by already mentioning it makes it harder to vote.

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Thedarklordpandamonium

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@i_like_swords:

Okay. But, for example, redviper didn't actually give a reason until I have an example

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@thedarklordpandamonium:

Well it's up to him to give one himself. Since he gave his own we can't penalize him, but I'm just saying it's not a good idea to actually give them examples.

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Thedarklordpandamonium

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Thedarklordpandamonium

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@i_like_swords:

I like how you gave a 'roughly' and then an exact hours and minutes.

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ScottishWarlord

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#125  Edited By ScottishWarlord
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Thedarklordpandamonium

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@scottishwarlord:

Thanks, but you need to provide one or two reasons for your vote. So we can learn, y'know? (=

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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  • All characters are bloodlusted
  • Random encounter
  • Harry is post-timeskip and assumed to know all spells

OH GOD.
After reading this over several times I'll have to give my vote to @thedarklordpandamonium.

Reasons being

  • Harry's spells at this point in time are going to be incredibly powerful, which was pointed out various times in the debate
  • The Firebolt will allow Harry to move much faster than the Dovaahkin, plus his reaction times to avoid spells and various attacks are great.
  • The Instant Darkness Powder was a great way to start it off, creating a disorientation technique is always enjoyable.

I liked both sides, enjoy both characters, but think that TDLP's strategy just works out better in the end.

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Thedarklordpandamonium

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OptimusPalm

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#129  Edited By OptimusPalm

I'd like to start by saying that I cant believe that somebody would use the 'words of a guard' as a basis for trying to prove a point. They say all sorts of nonsense, and will turn a blind eye if you pay them, which to me, means their words cant be trusted.

The fastest thing in skyrim is an arrow in flight. All guards must've seen an arrow in flight at some point. I think we all know a dragon doesn't move as fast as an arrow. I also think that none of us have actually seen a hawk in skyrim dive for prey, so there's no need to bring up the speed of a hawks dive at all.

It was a silly argument, but it wasn't fully countered.

Harry is faster, but not fast enough to not be hit. ILS plan WOULD work IMO. I believe Dovahkiin just has way more power at his disposal, and outside of game mechanics can pretty much do spells or shouts constantly.

IMHO I think TDLP debated a little bit better, but ILS main points were well made, and weren't properly countered.

ILS wins here, but kudos to TDLP for making it seem like Harry had a chance.

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reikai

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@optimuspalm: Don't underestimate town guards. Far as the game is concerned, these guys are damn near omniscient. How else do they all suddenly know I just joined the Dark Brotherhood and they go "Hey, I know who you are...Hail Sithis." I never told them anything! And I'm pretty sure membership is kept secret! So how does they knows?! =0

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Sovereign91001

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#131  Edited By Sovereign91001

@i_like_swords@thedarklordpandamonium Good Debate Guys I logged on and saw I'd been tagged about 7 times yesterday lol.

Anywho power wise I was undecided so I scored it a wash there, Agility I gave to HP, Skill to Dovahkiin but neither was a large enough gap to seal this fight therefore it came down to planning and tactics. With that said my vote goes to TDLP; his plan and tactics were a bit more feasible to me.

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Thedarklordpandamonium

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reikai

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Never play tag with the Dragonborn.

No Caption Provided

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@i_like_swords:

Looks like I win, 5 to 4!

Good debate.

Well actually it was 4-4, but then sovereign was like an unofficial tiebreaker. Either way, it was a good debate. Congrats!

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OptimusPalm

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@reikai said:

@optimuspalm: Don't underestimate town guards. Far as the game is concerned, these guys are damn near omniscient. How else do they all suddenly know I just joined the Dark Brotherhood and they go "Hey, I know who you are...Hail Sithis." I never told them anything! And I'm pretty sure membership is kept secret! So how does they knows?! =0

LOL! Good point. Nothing gets past you.

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Dextersinister

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They've already made a video with Dovahkin vs Harry.

Loading Video...

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They've already made a video with Dovahkin vs Harry.

Loading Video...

That's enough internet for today.