@rick_grayson: I wouldn't say so. He's unpredictable and not afraid to hurt himself to get to an enemy and that makes him difficult to fight but that doesn't mean he's as skilled as Bruce.
@rick_grayson: I've seen them, but then again Frank is a different fighter than Bruce. He's not inhibited by any morals like Batman is and is not afraid to fight like Zsasz while still maintaining his level of skill with a blade. I'd say his durability and pain tolerance are above both of them as well..at least it's certainly above Zsasz's.
@rick_grayson: I've seen them, but then again Frank is a different fighter than Bruce. He's not inhibited by any morals like Batman is and is not afraid to fight like Zsasz while still maintaining his level of skill with a blade. I'd say his durability and pain tolerance are above both of them as well..at least it's certainly above Zsasz's.
Yeah I mean I still think Punisher wins, even if Zsasz did go toe to toe it's still very inconsistent. Makes it closer than people might think though.
Normally I'd say Punisher stomps, but I've recently seen scans that show Zsasz at Batmans level in H2H. If this is true then Zsasz should take it.
Batman himself said that he greatly holds back against Zsasz for uknown reasons and that if he wanted to he could kill him with no effort using one arm. Frank kills him.
Normally I'd say Punisher stomps, but I've recently seen scans that show Zsasz at Batmans level in H2H. If this is true then Zsasz should take it.
Batman himself said that he greatly holds back against Zsasz for uknown reasons and that if he wanted to he could kill him with no effort using one arm. Frank kills him.
Batman himself said that he greatly holds back against Zsasz
Exactly the same for every opponent Batman faces, so this argument can be used for Punisher against all Batman rogues.
Batman, using a no kill rule (default Batman) is still superior to Punisher using a kill rule (default Punisher) IMO.
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In this scenario I would give the win to Zsasz.
Zsasz has stealthed Batman multiple times, and this environment suits stealth well. Zsasz has drawn blood on Batman in every 1v1 fight the two have ever been in, and Zsasz can school Damian with a knife, when Damian is using a sword (that's a huge handicap).
Batman himself said that he greatly holds back against Zsasz
Exactly the same for every opponent Batman faces, so this argument can be used for Punisher against all Batman rogues.
Batman, using a no kill rule (default Batman) is still superior to Punisher using a kill rule (default Punisher) IMO.
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In this scenario I would give the win to Zsasz.
Zsasz has stealthed Batman multiple times, and this environment suits stealth well. Zsasz has drawn blood on Batman in every 1v1 fight the two have ever been in, and Zsasz can school Damian with a knife, when Damian is using a sword (that's a huge handicap).
Punisher himself has snuck up on Wolverine, he's no slouch in regards to stealth.
...In Wolverine's own book where he ended up winning? Oh yeah, reaaaal jobber aura going on.
Wolverine should kill Punisher in about 5 seconds flat.
Punisher pretty much gets amped by two levels every time there's a crossover, then goes back to being Punisher in his own book.
...How often do you actually read the Punisher? He's always held his own against Logan in some form or another. You can say "Wolverine should kill Punisher is secondz!" but it's never been the case, whether you like it or not.
I mean, if we're going beyond generalizations of Punisher "being amped in crossovers" and look into showings, this showing is enough to demonstrate Castle's victory:
...How often do you actually read the Punisher? He's always held his own against Logan in some form or another. You can say "Wolverine should kill Punisher is secondz!" but it's never been the case, whether you like it or not.
If Punisher could shoot Spider-Man and Wolverine he would've wiped out his own rogues years ago and would be primarily put up against meta-human's with Super-Speed and Super-Strength.
When a crossover happens Punisher gets amped to keep both fan-bases happy, then he goes back to being Punisher afterwards.
@rick_grayson: I've seen them, but then again Frank is a different fighter than Bruce. He's not inhibited by any morals like Batman is and is not afraid to fight like Zsasz while still maintaining his level of skill with a blade. I'd say his durability and pain tolerance are above both of them as well..at least it's certainly above Zsasz's.
There's always some context to Zsasz's fights from what I have seen:
Batman is jobbing to him.
Zsasz's has a hostage.
Batman doesn't just hit him with magnetic batarangs to disarm him and knock out gas. -_-
Yadddah, Yaddah, Yaddah......ETC, ETC....
Batman's supposed to be able to fight guys like Bane on venom, but he has trouble with a peak human with a knife? Zsasz is skilled, but come on. He struggled with Robin(Damian), but I'm supposed to believe he beats up Batman in H2H? Someone who goes H2H with ****ing Deathstroke?
And please Zsaz fans don't tell me Colin interfered with the fight, cause Zsasz had plenty of time to get back up and recover from being slammed a bit. He even got back up and stabbed Colin.
Batman: Streets of Gotham #10-11, written by Paul Dini and drawn by Dustin Nguyen
Seriously Zsasz got blitzed, by a fairly injured Robin.
I'm just not seeing the hype over Zsasz. I would like to look at some other appearances as well. I'm not trying to lowball this guy, but from some of the things I remember Zsasz getting dropped quick by Batman at times. Then other times with context, Batman for some plot reason or another is struggling with Zsasz. When Batman is clearly above Zsasz, hell his gear is alone even used non lethally should quickly drop this guy like a bad habit.
I remember Saren ripping someone for overhyping this guy in like a Joker vs Zsasz board.
I think this is the feat Zsasz fans always use to try and legitimize Zsasz's stealth.
I believe this is from Batman: Knightfall Part One - Broken Bat?
But, you can clearly see Batman is worried about the Police Officer.
Like once, I would like to see Batman use one of his many gadgets to fight Zsasz(you know like how Batman fights everybody else?). Every fight I have seen thus far between these two, Batman fights like he doesn't remember he has a *****ing utility belt.
I know they have a bunch of other fights, but I would like to see one where Batman actually uses his gadgets and fights with some common sense, instead being OK with just going H2H and risk being stabbed.
This is yet another one of their fights. Zasz's has Stephanie Brown as a hostage.
Yet again Batman doesn't use a single *****ing gadget in his utility belt.
In this one I'll admit, Zsaz's looks very impressive. But, one could argue that Stephanie being an injured hostage threw off Batman's game.
Zsasz has beaten half the bat family in H2H combat one time or another.
Still got wrecked by Damian.
Gallery
Zsasz lost their rematch, and then he lost to Damian again in B&R. He also lost to Batman in 'Tec #816, The Last Arkham and Cacophony, lost to Barbara Gordon in Batgirl #1, lost to Nightwing in Nightwing #30, lost horribly to Batman, Spoiler and Huntress in Robin #95, lost to Tim Drake in Superman/Batman #62, and even lost to Two-Face after Dent received one month's worth of training from Batman.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that Zsasz has beaten half the Bat-family. The only ones he's ever beaten are Damian and Stephanie, and Damian beat him twice after that. Everyone else has wrecked him.
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Overall I think we will look at all of Zasz's showings, he's not anywhere as great as Zsasz fans make him out to be. We can't ignore this guy's low showings. When you mix them in with the high, he balances out to be way below Frank Castle and what we have seen from him in high to low showings.
That's just my 50 cents, I guess you can buy a cup a coffee with it.
Seriously Zsasz got blitzed, by a fairly injured Robin.
Hilarious, Zsasz has had his head slammed into the ground, has been knocked unconscious, wakes up and states on panel that he has a broken hand, and yet its somehow Robin that you talk about being injured!?!
Damian blitzes an injured guy who has nothing but a small knife, when he has a sword and its supposed to be impressive?!
all Zsasz vs Damian fights -
Damian is knocked unconscious from behind.
Damian with a sword vs Zsasz with a Knife - Zsasz wins
Damian with a sword vs Zsasz with a knife, a broken hand, and possible head trauma -Damian wins
Damian vs Blind Zsasz - Damian wins.
So in all their fights Zsasz has been running under a serious handicap, and in one he still won
@silent_bomber: He had plenty of time to recover mate, he even got up and was able to stab through Colin's thick meaty body. Far as the other one, I haven't seen that one. Which is why I referenced it through what Saren said.
That really doesn't shake my main point about Zasz being inconsistent, which you've already stated yourself. So....
As far as Damian having a sword. So? What does that have to do with being blitzed by someone below Batman level? A sword doesn't add to his speed. From what I have seen a Knife is Zasz's standard gear so I don't know what you are getting at. Either in the fight Zasz managed just fine with his knife vs sword. He cut up Damian anyway. The sword wasn't given little robin any real advantage. It's just style and choice of gear.
It's a sword, not a handgun. Zasz's arms are longer(has the better overall reach even with the sword) and he's what 2 feet taller?
As far as Damian having a sword. So? What does that have to do with being blitzed by someone below Batman level?
Fighting against someone with a sword, with a knife is basically impossible unless there is a huge gulf in skill.
Damian's reach is clearly much further with the sword, and Zsasz has to leave himself much more open with every attack because he is reaching with his arm as opposed to making up the distance with the blade.
Zsasz is inconsistent, but not against Damian, every time they are matched up the writer feels the need to put Zsasz under handicap.
@silent_bomber: I apologize then on the broken hand. Can't believe I missed that.
Sword vs Knife: Everything you are saying on that is directly contradicted by the fact the Sword didn't bother Zasz at all and he won the first round of their fight with ease. You're over-hyping the sword.
Edit:
Even though he had a broken hand, I'll still call it even, because Damian got injured and was bleeding.
@silent_bomber: Sword vs Knife: Everything you are saying on that is directly contradicted by the fact the Sword didn't bother Zsasz at all and he won the first round of their fight with ease.
Because he didn't have a broken hand and head trauma
...How often do you actually read the Punisher? He's always held his own against Logan in some form or another. You can say "Wolverine should kill Punisher is secondz!" but it's never been the case, whether you like it or not.
If Punisher could shoot Spider-Man and Wolverine he would've wiped out his own rogues years ago and would be primarily put up against meta-human's with Super-Speed and Super-Strength.
When a crossover happens Punisher gets amped to keep both fan-bases happy, then he goes back to being Punisher afterwards.
...He doesn't have any rouges, though. Beyond Jigsaw, but that guy has a weird habit of faking his own death.
He went up against Electro recently and almost killed him. He does go up against metas. He killed the Vulture using nothing but a knife.
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