Valkorion vs DE Sidious

@darthbane77 They did it via meditation, not via rituals( which may be the same or which may be different, I don't really care). I never said he is superior, just equal. It wasn't single handed, I just said it. And how does any feat of Valkorion compare to this? It is a galactic level feat of humongous proportions.

Vaporizing people with Force blasts, curbing the SWTOR Jedi team with zero effort, defeating Revan (who IS Yoda tier), and more

If you think Revan is Yoda tier, we can definitely agree to disagree. Sidious, curbed the Jedi Strike team before mere mortals could blink, or before amped Windu could even react. Valkorion did not display this level of dominance, one Council Member even began to withstand his lightning. And Sidious did not even use his biggest trump card, the force. He even stated that he used his lightsabers to humiliate the Jedi at their own game.

To say ROTS Sidious is superior to Valkorion is extreme lowballing and is quite laughable

It is quite unfortunate that we disagree here wholeheartedly. Forget that, DE Sidious would have a lot of trouble with ROTS Sidious, if he fought his earlier incarnation. It seems that I would have to make an effort to bring out ROTS Sidious's feats, since most regard him as comparable to Kun or Krayt, which is what is truly laughable.

If you wish, I can stop commenting, since you are the creator of this thread. However, it is my belief that you are mistaken, and I was just attempting to correct that. The case of even ROTS Sidious( who all the quotes refer to anyway) vs Valkorion is not so clear cut, and there is a lot of room for discussion. I am not replying seriously since I am already engaged in a debate, and am at my first month in a university. So if you wish, I will let the matter drop here.

@lordofthelight:

Revan being one of the most powerful Force weilders ever, like the Emperor, makes every opinion you just made moot:

"Revan was one of the strongest Force-wielders ever."

―Chris Avellone (Knights of the Old Republic 2 Head Writer)

"Revan has become more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic

"Revan was a master strategist as well as an extremely powerful Force wielder."

―Chris Avellone (Knights of the Old Republic 2 Head Writer)

"Revan travels to a very iconic Yavin IV to go to battle and release the actual Emperor, one we thought who was defeated not long ago. The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor."

―Michael Backus (Star Wars: The Old Republic Head Writer)

So you can cease your preconceptionsf the lore, because Revan approaching Yoda is absolutely nothing like lowballing.

As far as your claims about TPM Sidious are concerned:

The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force’s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them.

- Darth Plagueis

So it took them months of 'intense meditation' to shift the balance of the Force, which hadn't even resisted them. An incredibly impressive feat, but considering all that Valkorion has accomplished himself, I am hesistant to afford Sidious a one-up considering he had a Sith Lord as powerful as himself aiding him in the process.

I find it humorous that you go into a tirade about Valkorion's prep/rituals, but when Plagueis and Sidious take months to accomplish the feat you've brought to the forefront, it is suddenly dismissable.

@lordofthelight: This debate is fun, but I don't think either of us will be changing our positions; so there isn't much of a point in continuing. You did make some good arguments that I'll have to consider though. I wish you luck at university. Good debate sir.

@darthbane77: Ziost is eclipsed by RotS/early DT Sidious' Byss feat.

@sithrevenant I think I mentioned clearly that it took them a long time to do so. Not that it matters, since it is one of the best feats in the mythos. And this was a showing of pure raw power, not the aid of rituals( which use techniques of Sith sorcery, advanced knowledge, etc. to increase power) thousands of Jedi Masters and Sith Lords, and one of, if not the most potent DS Nexuses in the galaxy, and time( which though was lesser than what they took, was still sufficient enough). I think DE Sidious can take on a version of him 42 years before his prime, and another who is just equal, or maybe even inferior to him. He probably won't win a majority in that case, but the fight will simply be stellar. So, yeah by simple powerscaling, you can do the rest.

Oh, so if you think Revan can compete with Yoda, and give him an excellent contest, do you also think he could give ROTS Sidious a very good contest. In that case, he could challenge DE Sidious( since ROTS Sidious, would cause a lot of trouble for DE Sidious), and would last a good length of time against him? That is completely plausible to me, sure! Are you one of those that believes that DE Sidious stomps ROTS Sidious? You aren't an expert in the PT era if you believe that is even remotely close to being true( and before you blow the top of your head, I am not accusing personally you of anything).

I find it utterly humorous, that you go into a tirade about how Revan was the most powerful Jedi of his time, when it is stated clearly that Yoda was the most powerful and the most devastating foe that the darkness had ever faced, and the most powerful Jedi upto his time. This insinuates that he is above the second by a substantial margin. Also, it does not matter if Revan chose to turn to the dark side, he was technically still a Jedi, and was doing whatever he did to remove the Emperor, the embodiment of the dark side itself.

Deal with it, Yoda is in the top tier, Revan is a tier below him. Not exponentially, not vastly, but still substantially weaker than him. And in a fight between the two, Yoda would win every time, and it wouldn't be close, at all.

@darthbane77 We probably won't, yeah that maybe true. Thanks, by the way.

Rise of the Emperor Vitiate:

• Dominated an unknown amount of people on Ziost.
• Drained their life energies when they died.
• Unleashed a planet-wide Death Field.

Revenge of the Sith/early Dark Times Sidious:

• Dominated several million people on Byss.
• Drained their life energies constantly.
• Created an illusion that everyone was living their life as usual.
• Made Byss a beacon that attracted even non-Force sensitives.
• Did all this from across the galaxy without strain.

If this is the only feat Vitiate supporters argue places him on DE Sidious' level, I'm afraid he doesn't even compare to RotS Sidious. I haven't even mentioned any RotJ or DE feats (which include far more than Force Storms).

@azronger: @lordofthelight: Where the hell are you getting the idea that the Jedi and Sith aided him? All they did was kill everyone else to fuel a weakened Vitiate's power. Source for the ritual? Mothing in any codex entry or dialogue claims he used a ritual, he simply drained the entire flora and fauna and the inhabitants of the planet of Ziost, as well as the dark side energies of the planet.

What you're not even remotely considering is that Ziost made Valkorion permanently far more powerful than he was as Vitiate, by his own admission.

I would like to know where the idea comes from that draining the inhabitants of Byss is comparable to Vitiate completely draining and devastating the surface of the entire planet of Ziost and causing power fluctuations in a space station tens of thousands of kilometers away as an after-effect. That whilst he was a weakened disembodied essence.

This is a pre-prime feat, again, this feat made Valkorion far more powerful than he had been prior to Ziost.

Revan being comparable to Yoda, meaning he is capable of providing Yoda with an excellent fight, is not the impossible height you seem to believe. Yoda is as powerful as Sidious is, because of his mastery of the Force, not his raw power, which Sidious is confirmed to be greater in.

Yoda can be the most powerful Jedi ever seen until Luke, that doesn't mean others are incomparabld by any means.

@azronger There were several billion, not million, people on Byss. And yeah, I don't get why even Sidious supporters use this feat, he has far better ones, by DE, he even has comparable ones than this around ROTS. And he dominated several thousand people, hundreds of them being force sensitive fodders, used their aid, and the aid of one of the most powerful DS Nexuses in the history of the galaxy, to do so.

@sithrevenant They fueled his power, means they aided him. He drained not only from fodder, but also from force sensitives, to fuel his power, that was the whole point of my reply. Yeah, something that takes several hours to a day( far far more, if you consider his usage of force sensitives to fuel his power) can be just a showing of raw power, I agree completely. By the way, I acknowledge that the force feat in TPM took time, but it is simply far too vast and far too infinite to allow such a thing to take away its credibilty.

Byss was also a severely pre-prime feat, that is around ROTS Sidious, or slightly ahead of that time. Considering you seem to think DE Sidious stomps ROTS Sidious, yeah, I would seal this argument here.

Spirits are capable of performing much better than than when alive, feats which you seem to display as if on a banner prove it. Examples, Vitiate, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, etc. And all of them did it on a severely potent DS Nexus, so yeah, that point is moot. I think I know where your next argument will be directed to.

Yeah, considering Mastery=%of raw power shown or manifested, thanks for insinuating that Yoda is more powerful than being virtually equal to ROTS Sidious. All sources say that Yoda couldn't beat him, in other words, couldn't outclass him in power, a huge cry from being outclassed from ROTS Sidious in power. And I would call his matching of Sidious's electric storm at the end of their fight as Yoda being virtually equal to Sidious as far as raw power is concerned, it is nothing but plain and simple.

For the last time, Revan isn't incomparable. Stop twisting my words. Yoda wins against him 10/10, and the fight isn't close at all, doesn't mean Yoda stomps Revan or crushes him, and I outright denied that notion.

Lets get this straight, where do you think Valkorion stands on the Sidious/Yoda issue? If you think Valkorion beats DE Sidious, we have nothing left to discuss. Though the margins are close, the winner for me is quite clear. If you think Valkorion beats ROTS Sidious, that is debatable, and that is where the vast majority of quotes are directed at. To wave aside the issue as if it is laughable is quite frankly, condescending on your part( and baffling on mine) and I would say exactly the same about your Yoda/Revan comparison.

So, Milady, do you want to make this a proper debate? (Please say no, I am already engaged in one, and time doesn't grow on trees for me here:) ).

Sidious stomps tbh

I wouldn't go so far as to put Revan in Yoda's tier. Maybe in the same order of magnitude :)

That'll be true when I see a skinny, black-haired Goth girl in a Norwegian opera.

@wollfmyth209: It's not that hard to imagine. Revan's practically the Anakin of his time. Yes, he has less potential, but far greater knowledge and mastery of the Force to compensate for it. The Nyriss feat, regardless of any comparison to Yoda vs Dooku, is also incredibly impressive, especially since it takes place before his prime.

Revan being in the same tier as Yoda is much too generous (because it'd put Revan in the same tier as Palpatine with respects to the Force, which simply isn't the case), but by his prime, I don't think it's that far-fetched to claim that he's in the same order of magnitude as Yoda.

@shootingnova: Not really. Comparing where Yoda stands to Sidious and where Revan stands to Vitiate, then factoring in where Vitiate stands compared to Palpatine, it's a safe bet Yoda's order of magnitude is higher.

@wollfmyth209: I personally find it hard to take most of Revan at face value. There's just so much inconsistency, both within the novel and with Drew's comments outside of the novel. Regardless, TOR established Revan as one of the few Jedi who could stand up to Vitiate, so there's that.

@shootingnova: Stand up, perhaps, but not be his near-equal by any stretch of the imagination.

@sithrevenant

What you're not even remotely considering is that Ziost made Valkorion permanently far more powerful than he was as Vitiate, by his own admission.

I know that. But by how much is unknown. Feel free to attempt to quantify the gap, though.

I would like to know where the idea comes from that draining the inhabitants of Byss is comparable to Vitiate completely draining and devastating the surface of the entire planet of Ziost and causing power fluctuations in a space station tens of thousands of kilometers away as an after-effect. That whilst he was a weakened disembodied essence.

Vitiate was literally incapable of draining anyone he possessed without killing them. Sidious could leeched off of them 24/7, made Byss a beacon so subtle even non-Force sensitives could feel it in the Force and were drawn to it, planted an illusion of tranquility in everyone's heads and made them think they were living their lives normally, and still got stronger over time without having to kill a single person. He did all this from across the galaxy, while Vitiate had to be present on the planet. That's an exponentially superior feat of both Force Drain and Telepathy to Vitiate's.

The shaking of the space station happened before the Death Field and had nothing to do with it. And speaking if the Death Field, while it is true Sidious never pulled it off, it's also true he never even attempted it. He's been canonically confirmed to know the ability in Book of the Sith and after just comparing their respective power in basic Force Drain, it's apparent Sidious is Vitiate's superior in that regard, so why should Death Field - which is an aspect of Force Drain - be excluded from that? If you claim he can't do it, it's up to you to prove that - with no appeals to ingnorance, please.

Vitiate may have been a weakened spirit but the dark side nexus of Ziost made up for that loss in power.

@lordofthelight

There were several billion, not million, people on Byss. And yeah, I don't get why even Sidious supporters use this feat, he has far better ones, by DE, he even has comparable ones than this around ROTS. And he dominated several thousand people, hundreds of them being force sensitive fodders, used their aid, and the aid of one of the most powerful DS Nexuses in the history of the galaxy, to do so.

I am only using feats that I believe RotS Sidious is capable of. Byss was only inhabited by several million at the time. Why am I only using RotS feats? Well, the fewer feats I use, the more apparent Sidious > Valkorion becomes.

That's possible, probable even. That is if it's DE Sidious.

@azronger I created such methods, on my own entirely, and use them often and so yeah, I am familiar with your tactic. I was commenting on other people's neglect of such feats. And yeah, check it again, Byss was inhabited by 20 billion people.

That's possible, probable even. That is if it's DE Sidious.

SithRevenant will go nuts if she sees this. Anyways, it is a huge stretch to say that he would stomp, but yeah, he would win, rather decisively. I don't view the gap between them to be nearly as close as some suggest.

@lordofthelight: That was later on. At first there were only several million.

Years ago, Emperor Palpatine chose Byss as his private retreat, and Imperial architects and engineers were commissioned to build him an opulent palace. Several million humans were allowed to emigrate to the world, where the Emperor and his adepts used the dark side to feed off their life energies. The planet's population eventually reached almost 20 billion, and all outgoing communications were censored by security agents.

–The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

@lordofthelight:

For crying out loud. There are 20 BILLION inhabitants on Byss, fantastic, great feat. You don't seem to grasp Valkorion's entity tier power, allow me to educate you in this regard.

As a boy named Tenebrae, he was supremely powerful with the dark side of the Force, making him more powerful than Marka Ragnos:

The child who will come to be known as the Sith Emperor is born. Black-eyed, heartless, and supremely strong in the dark side of the Force, the boy seizes control of his homeworld by the age of 13 and earns the title Lord Vitiate.

- Star Wars The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

So as a thirteen year old boy, Vitiate was the supreme Sith in the ancient Sith Empire. Vitiate spends a century growing in power after this:

Lord Vitiate returned to his home to conduct his research into the depths of the dark side's power.

He stayed there for a hundred years.

- Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Then he conducts the ritual of Nathema:

He executes the Sith Council and consumes the life force of thousands of Sith Lords in a terrifying ritual that extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force.

- Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Infact, Vitiate absorbed every living thing, achieving the greatest dark side nexus the Star Wars mythos would ever see:

Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.

The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Medriaas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor. The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. The lifeless planet of Mediraas became a void in the Force and was erased from history. From that moment forward, the world would forever be known as Nathema, birthplace of the one and only Sith Emperor.

- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

This ritual transformed Vitiate into a being with unique power and immortality:

The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy.

- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Vitiate would grow constantly in the thousand years after:

In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail.

- Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia

It is at this point that the novel takes place, and the Sith Emperor has become a nigh Godlike avatar of the Dark Side:

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side

- Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia

By now the Emperor is powerful enough to repeat the Nathema event with no aid:

"Is that possible?" he asked. "Nyriss told me the ritual on Nathema took days, if not weeks. And the Emperor had to trick hundreds of other powerful Sith into working with him so he could draw on their power."

"He's stronger now."

- Scourge and Revan, Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

The Emperor would grow in power over the next three centuries:

REVAN COULD FEEL THE EMPEROR FEEDING ON HIM, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger.

- Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives.

- Star Wars The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

The Emperor after his death and rebirth, would absorb the power of dying Sith and Jedi on Ziost:

Obsessed with achieving immortality, the Sith Emperor has targeted his own former subjects on the planet Ziost, with every death seemingly extending his dark power.

- Star Wars The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

The Emperor becomes more and more powerful by the hour on Ziost, as his strength is replenished:

Now that he has found in Ziost a suitable target to replenish himself--now that he appears to grow more powerful by the hour-what now?

- Star Wars The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor Codex Entry - Vitiate

The Emperor displays the most extreme powers of the Dark Side as he drains Ziost:

Global cataclysms are not unheard of. Whole worlds teeming with life have been rendered lifeless by meteorites, broken apart by instability in the planet's own core--even atomized by the destructive force of a supernova. But the eerie calm of a world stripped of life yet left otherwise intact is another matter altogether. Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.

- Star Wars The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

This event 'freed' the Emperor, allowing him utter immortality:

Voices... Hands... Children... I no longer require those crude vessels. At long last I am truly free.

- Valkorion, Knights of the Fallen Empire: Chapter 2

So care to explain how a being as incredibly powerful as that gets stomped by Sidious when Sidious was stalemated by Mother Talzin on Dathomir?

@azronger Al-right. How much later, though?

@sithrevenant Please direct your arguments to azronger. I am in all rights intruding here, and I don't have the time to reply to each and every one of those things, as much as I heartily would like to, when I am already engaged in another discussion. And I never said that it would be a stomp, perhaps care to read who says what next time? You ignored 99% of what I said during our last debate, and this one as well leading me to believe that I am talking to a brick wall, and throwing quotes that even a newbie is aware of will not change anything. Those quotes were old when the stars were new, those words soaked in glamour are the sole reason people hype Valkorion so much, no one has attempted to make even a remotely serious case for Palpatine yet, and as I said, I can't spare 1 or 2 hours doing so right now. I'll respond in my own time, but yeah, this thing needs to be debunked.

He curbed her in their saber duel, and all she managed to do was hold on for a brief period exchanging his lightning, when she would have been massively amped by the magick of Dathomir, and Sidious, to my knowledge showed very less to negligible knowledge about such an element. It elevates her than it downgrades Sidious. And why did Arcann manage to defend himself from the lightning of Valkorion? But of course, Arcann is Yoda level, my apologies.

@lordofthelight: Not sure. Probably around the OT, maybe.

@azronger Care to respond to SithRevenant?

@sithrevenant: There's absolutely nothing there that says Valkorion > Sidious. If you want to prove that, then actually compare the two. I could link all the Sidious respect threads here and it wouldn't prove a thing.

And lol at that Talzin arguement. It's a good feat for her, not a bad one for Sidious.

@azronger:

Kinda agree with you, but since Ant's my disciple and shit, I have an obligation to do this:

You're stupid for thinking that, Valk is obviously near Sidious level, probably even better. His handling of Revan while in a massively weaker incantation, as well as the razing of Ziost, and his other feats indicate that pretty apparently.

Nothing personal m8.

Tenebrae being "supremely powerful" means he's actually the supreme Sith, not that he has an accolade with flowery wording.

@brightsteel: What?

LOL at DE Sidious being able to stomp Valkorion. He isn't even going to stomp the likes of Plageuis for god's sake. Let's not overrate Palpatine here, okay?

On topic, Palpatine wins in an extremely close fight.

EDIT: Just saw that it's force only. It's a stalemate, then. Palpatine's exceptional duelling abilities is what enables him to edge him out here narrowly despite Valkorion's feats against lightsabers.

To be honest, I put RotJ Sidious as superior to Valkorion. RotS Sidious has advantages and disadvantages when compared with Valkorion, in my opinion.

That being said, I don't really think DE Sidious is leagues above RotJ Sidious, or even necessarily (Edit: leagues) above RotS Sidious, so it's a good fight, but I think Sidious takes it 9-10/10.

@azronger: Basically, me and Ant both love Stover. My knowledge of Stover shits on Ant's, so he's my disciple. Since he's my disciple, I have to take a stance similar to what he'd support, instead of what I actually think. Obligatory and shit.

@brightsteel: What kind of a master/apprentice relationship is that? It's the disciple who follows his master, not the other way around.

@noobsnowman: If you think it's so funny, then refute some of the arguments here.

Depends on where you draw the line between the two.

@azronger: It has already been debunked for centuries and I'm not interested in going around in circles on used garbage.

I legitimately see no reason as to why Valkorion can stalemate Palpatine in Force-only. :/

@noobsnowman: Then link me to somewhere where it has been debunked. I have never seen anyone debunk the Byss feat.

And if everything has supposedly been already debunked, why do 50% of the community still think Sidious > Valkorion?

@wollfmyth209 ROTS Palpatine, sure. DE, he'll lose, not sure exactly by how wide a margin( maybe he'll greatly strain Sidious, or Sidious wins in a decent fight, I am inclined towards the latter), but he'll lose, and this is force only.

@azronger: I engaged in that discussion with you before especially on the Byss feat, how Vitiate's Ziost feat is arguably superior.

And what are you talking about. Even now I have Sidious > Valkorion but only by slim margins. Oh and 50% isn't a big number btw.

@noobsnowman

I engaged in that discussion with you before especially on the Byss feat, how Vitiate's Ziost feat is arguably superior.

These were your arguments regarding Byss:

One example would be when Palpatine needing to drain the Byss with the aid of his servants, and this feat alone is matched by Novel Vitiate seizing control of Dromund Kaas and making it his residence planet.

It's a feat of force drain, which Vitiate surpasses Palpatine in this ability. On the Byss, Palpatine only enslaved them. Vitiate not only did that, he amplified them with his energies, he made them speak on his behalf, he created an an entire army that would fight for him against their will, he made the entire universe fear his presence. Vitiate is without a doubt unparalleled in the use of telepathy.

The Dromund Kaas one is completely laughable, and I debunked everything in your second argument even back then, and you just quit the debate. And I've come up with an even stronger case now.

So you haven't debunked shit. Byss >>> Ziost. Sidious reigns supreme.

And what are you talking about. Even now I have Sidious > Valkorion but only by slim margins.

You have them as equals in Force power.

Oh and 50% isn't a big number btw.

Did I ever say it was? No, I didn't. Your point?

If roughly half of the entire forum still thinks Sidious > Valkorion, some even have the gap almost in the stomp range, then no, nothing has been debunked, not by you anyway.

@azronger:

The Dromund Kaas one is completely laughable, and I debunked everything in your second argument even back then, and you just quit the debate

When you respond with further fallacious arguments I stopped bothering because I'm not interested in going around in circles and entertaining erroneous reasoning.

And I've come up with an even stronger case now.

You can't possibly say that when your response to SithRevenant's case is this:

There's absolutely nothing there that says Valkorion > Sidious.

And for the record, your argument got weaker. I gave Sidious the narrow edge in an all out fight based on reconsideration, not from reading the forum arguments.

You have them as equals in Force power.

Well having Sidious take a small majority can be argued, but him winning every time is laughable.

Did I ever say it was? No, I didn't. Your point?

Then why bother bringing up that number?

If roughly half of the entire forum still thinks Sidious > Valkorion, some even have the gap almost in the stomp range, then no, nothing has been debunked, not by you anyway.

Except that I debunked it and it's refusal to accept evidence at this point. You base your arguments off sweeping statements and 'unknown' figures - when it's so damn obvious that draining an entire planet's population figures speaks to high numbers. Pretty much appeals to ignorance if you ask me.

Oh, so you're trying to tell me that just because other people think that Sidious stomps Valkorion proves that I didn't debunk anything. Nice argument ad populum. Riding the fallacy train I see.

@noobsnowman

When you respond with further fallacious arguments I stopped bothering because I'm not interested in going around in circles and entertaining erroneous reasoning.

What "fallacious arguments" and "erronous reasoning" have I used, then? You aren't exactly innocent of this yourself, so it's hypocritical to call me out on such things, but I'll look forward to your criticims if they can actually help me improve my arguments.

You can't possibly say that when your response to SithRevenant's case is this:

There's absolutely nothing there that says Valkorion > Sidious.

What? I responded to each of her points when she adressed my Byss argument, and has failed to respond since then. And that wall of text she posted wasn't a case, lol. A case has actual arguments. And aside from her wonky Talzin argument, she just copy-pasted a respect thread here. That is not a case and posting a wall of hype is not an argument. An actual comparison between Sidious and Valkorion would be nice, but for that, you must, well, compare. Which is exactly what I did, and I'd say my case is stronger than it was back when we had our debate.

And for the record, your argument got weaker. I gave Sidious the narrow edge in an all out fight based on reconsideration, not from reading the forum arguments.

You're not making any sense. How exactly did my argument get weaker because you reassessed your position?

Well having Sidious take a small majority can be argued, but him winning every time is laughable.

Well, I might start considering Valkorion winning a single round if you actually addressed my Byss argument and/or brought something game-changing to the table. And for the record, Valkorion having fancy-looking lightning that knocked out Arcann, or blowing up T3 does not make him an equal of Sidious in the Force.

Then why bother bringing up that number?

What number should I have used, then? Usually, if the community is divided on something, it's 50% on the other side and 50% on the other.

Except that I debunked it and it's refusal to accept evidence at this point. You base your arguments off sweeping statements and 'unknown' figures - when it's so damn obvious that draining an entire planet's population figures speaks to high numbers. Pretty much appeals to ignorance if you ask me.

Oh? Tell me, when did a completely unknown number magically become a large one? Is that what you were taught in school? Unless you happen to pull a quote regarding Ziost's population count, then it remains unknown.

And I've already posted your only arguments regarding Ziost (feel free to prove me wrong, though). Tell me - how does either of these debunk anything I've posted? Tell me. More like I debunked yours.

Oh, so you're trying to tell me that just because other people think that Sidious stomps Valkorion proves that I didn't debunk anything. Nice argument ad populum. Riding the fallacy train I see.

While it was an ad populum of sorts, it's still true. If there was actually legitimate proof of Valkorion's superiority, then there sure as hell would be more Valkorion supporters. When I asked for links to someone proving it, you only mentioned our debate, and your "proof" there fell terribly short.

Either way.

Palps with mid-diff.

rots sidious wins 10/10, de sidious god stomps

@azronger:

What "fallacious arguments" and "erronous reasoning" have I used, then? You aren't exactly innocent of this yourself, so it's hypocritical to call me out on such things, but I'll look forward to your criticims if they can actually help me improve my arguments.

I have pointed it out many times in the past but it was getting clear that you are either oblivious of using them, not knowing what type of fallacious arguments you're using, or both. It was to the point that I got disinterested in entertaining the repetitive illogical garbage for the next 5 pages. Even in your last post, there is already some nice logical fallacies.

What? I responded to each of her points when she adressed my Byss argument, and has failed to respond since then. And that wall of text she posted wasn't a case, lol. A case has actual arguments.

Except that that post actually has actual arguments, lol.

And aside from her wonky Talzin argument

According to you - I don't see anything wrong with that argument.

she just copy-pasted a respect thread here.

He's basically trying to show how Valkorion is at least not getting stomped by Palpatine by posting a list of feats and accolades - isn't that what you need to back up points in debating?

That is not a case and posting a wall of hype is not an argument.

But it is true that you are way too dismissive of Valkorion's feats and fail to grasp what he can really do. If only you are just as dismissive for DE Palpatine's feats, then maybe that will be fair.

An actual comparison between Sidious and Valkorion would be nice, but for that, you must, well, compare.

Maybe you're failing to see his arguments then. Because he was making a comparison between the two's feats then, and only posted Vitiate's feat and accolades when it was clear that you fail to understand the grasp of his power.

Which is exactly what I did, and I'd say my case is stronger than it was back when we had our debate.

But I think it's weaker - from the very moment you try to use the 'unknown' argument anyways.

You're not making any sense. How exactly did my argument get weaker because you reassessed your position?

Well, I might start considering Valkorion winning a single round if you actually addressed my Byss argument and/or brought something game-changing to the table.

Allow me to repost a section of my post that already addressed your above point.

@noobsnowman Except that I debunked it and it's refusal to accept evidence at this point.

Also, I like how you're being so condescending here. As if I care what you think of the Valkorion vs Sidious matchup and how it requires an 'exceptional' argument to convince you. Maybe if you haven't realized, there are many exceptional arguments around that you are either oblivious to or refusing to accept that they are exceptional, or both?

And for the record, Valkorion having fancy-looking lightning that knocked out Arcann

Thanks for complimenting Valkorion's lightning, you're too kind. It looks fancier than Palpatine's thats fosho.

Secondly, Arcann's strength in the force rivals or arguably surpasses the likes of Count Dooku - who himself is one of the strongest force practitioners in the prequels barring the likes of Yoda and Palpatine. Valkorion made that guy look like a complete joke with a flick of his wrist. That easily puts him on Palpatine's league.

blowing up T3

Well DE Palpatine obviously wins every time against Novel Vitiate, which is when he performed this feat.

What number should I have used, then? Usually, if the community is divided on something, it's 50% on the other side and 50% on the other.

Don't use a number then. No one is going to take made up numbers with a grain of salt.

Oh? Tell me, when did a completely unknown number magically become a large one? Is that what you were taught in school? Unless you happen to pull a quote regarding Ziost's population count, then it remains unknown.

It really dosen't take much to understand that an planetary population speaks to high numbers of who Vitiate has drained during Ziost.

So are we playing with ignorance now? Because you're saying that I cannot prove how many people Vitiate drained at Ziost, therefore it is a low showing.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/56/Argument-from-Ignorance

And I've already posted your only arguments regarding Ziost (feel free to prove me wrong, though). Tell me - how does either of these debunk anything I've posted? Tell me. More like I debunked yours.

@azronger said:

Fixed.

Also, I honestly fail to understand how the Byss feat is infinitely better than Novel Vitiate's feat at Dromund Kaas.

Years ago, Emperor Palpatine chose Byss as his private retreat, and Imperial architects and engineers were commissioned to build him an opulent palace. Several million humans were allowed to emigrate to the world, where the Emperor and his adepts used the dark side to feed off their life energies. The planet's population eventually reached almost 20 billion, and all outgoing communications were censored by security agents.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Compared to this:

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side.

Source: Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.

The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor. The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. The lifeless planet of Mediraas became a void in the Force and was erased from history. From that moment forward, the world would forever be known as Nathema, birthplace of the one and only Sith Emperor.

Source: Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

So what do we have here? Both Palpatine and Vitiate chose their respective planets as their areas of residence, and conducted to drain their targets and amplify their own strengths. Both of them were aided. For Palpatine, 20 billion humans were involved as compared to 8000 Sith Lords for Novel Vitiate.

Is Palpatine's feat superior? Sure, because he conducted it with no strain of effort while Vitiate's was a test of his strength in the Dark Side that could potentially kill him. But that does not put Palpatine's Byss feat on a completely different level as Vitiate's because of the similarities in their feats.

While it was an ad populum of sorts, it's still true. If there was actually legitimate proof of Valkorion's superiority, then there sure as hell would be more Valkorion supporters. When I asked for links to someone proving it, you only mentioned our debate, and your "proof" there fell terribly short.

What? Are you trying to justify to me your use of logical fallacies now? Just because there is legitimate proof of Valkorion's superiority does not necessarily mean that there would be more Valkorion supporters. What is right is not always popular, what is popular is not always right.

There was a populace of about twenty billion people on Byss, not several million.

@noobsnowman Not going out on a full fledged debate with you, but let me add my 2 cents:

Thanks for complimenting Valkorion's lightning, you're too kind. It looks fancier than Palpatine's thats fosho.

Secondly, Arcann's strength in the force rivals or arguably surpasses the likes of Count Dooku - who himself is one of the strongest force practitioners in the prequels barring the likes of Yoda and Palpatine. Valkorion made that guy look like a complete joke with a flick of his wrist. That easily puts him on Palpatine's league.

I am sure you are aware that the other guy, just, well, stomps Dooku across an entire galaxy, via hologram, and this feat was a year or two before ROTS( not to mention how Dooku literally worships Sidious). And to be fair, there is no argument, Arcann>Dooku, even if it maybe by a small margin, but the fact that he is better is decisive.

The Byss feat takes place very shortly after ROTS( credit: Azronger), and I am sure you know that the Emperor spent his most of his reign in Coruscant. Byss was just a private retreat, not an area where he lived), and so doing this stuff across a galaxy, is definitely around equal with Valkorion's feat( surely you don't think that maintaining this level of telepathic control, over such a large number of beings, across the galaxy for decades, is not on par).

Also, the scale of domination he displays over fodder Sith Lords, is just plain more impressive in Nathema than on Ziost(compare hundreds of Jedi Masters and Sith Lords, with 8000 Sith Lords), does it mean that 100 year old Vitiate>Valkorion? When dealing with beings of this level, ordinary force sensitives, cease to matter anyway. The thing that is relevant here is that he used all of their energies( including the ones of non force sensitives) to help him accomplish this feat. Not to mention that Ziost is one of the most powerful dark side nexuses in the galaxy, and that he did it from Ziost, not across the galaxy.

No one's stomping anyone here. However, the folks who are arguing in favor of Valkorion are grasping at straws.

@noobsnowman: After CV deleted my original post, I'm just going to cut the crap and get right into it.

Rise of the Emperor Vitiate:

• Dominated an unknown amount entire planet of people on Ziost.

You seem to think "unknown amount" and "the entire planet of Ziost" aren't the same. Prove it. With something other than an argument from stone.

Even if we accept Ziost's population was a "large number," it still wouldn't make it automatically bigger than Byss' several million. Sidious has been declared the strongest Sith Lord as of RotS (TOR Codex still refers to Valkorion as a Sith, so the quotes apply), and when quantifying a feat is simply impossible, like it is here, we should fall back on those quotes.

• Unleashed a planet-wide Death Field that corrupted the entire planet's atmosphere. Non force sensitive beings, unless chosen to fight for Vitiate, were disintegrated into nothingness in the process

Not sure why you felt the need to elaborate on this.

• Created an entire army off his power alone to resist both the Republic and Empire forces

He didn't "create" anything. He dominated their minds. Not sure what separates this from the first point.

• Spawned monoliths that is said to be the extreme representation of the Dark Side

That is a good feat.

• Conducted alone

You claim Sidious' wasn't. Incorrect, but I will elaborate on that later.

Revenge of the Sith/early Dark Times Return of the Jedi Sidious:

Again, incorrect. In Evasive Action: Recruitment, we see Sidious draining Byss. The comic takes place only months after RotS, and I see no reason to believe Sidious' power would've increased that drastically in such a short time, that he couldn't accomplish this as of RotS.

(Credit to Silver2467)

• [Sidious] Dominated several million non force sensitive people on Byss.
• [Vitiate] Dominated even the most accomplished of Jedi Masters' mind to the point that they fought for Vitiate against their will, with Vitiate's voice being heard on every single being that he controlled

You act as if six Jedi make Vitiate's feat more notable. It doesn't.

• Drained their life energies constantly.
• Created an illusion that everyone was living their life as usual.
• Made Byss a beacon that attracted even non-Force sensitives.
• Did all this from across the galaxy without strain.

These are what Vitiate - and Valkorion - haven't done. All of this - particularly the last point - makes it clear Sidious' feat is out of Valkorion's league. Vitiate creating Monolith's balances out one of these, but certainly not all.

• Aided by some dark side adepts

Given that there is no rebuttal of any sort to my post about this, I assume you either missed it, or that you deliberately ignored it because you had no counter. I'll post it here more time. If I don't see this addressed in your next post, I'm simply taking that as a concession.

Also, I honestly fail to understand how the Byss feat is infinitely better than Novel Vitiate's feat at Dromund Kaas.

Years ago, Emperor Palpatine chose Byss as his private retreat, and Imperial architects and engineers were commissioned to build him an opulent palace. Several million humans were allowed to emigrate to the world, where the Emperor and his adepts used the dark side to feed off their life energies. The planet's population eventually reached almost 20 billion, and all outgoing communications were censored by security agents.

Compared to this:

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side.

Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.

The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor. The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. The lifeless planet of Mediraas became a void in the Force and was erased from history. From that moment forward, the world would forever be known as Nathema, birthplace of the one and only Sith Emperor.

So what do we have here? Both Palpatine and Vitiate chose their respective planets as their areas of residence, and conducted to drain their targets and amplify their own strengths. Both of them were aided. For Palpatine, 20 billion humans were involved as compared to 8000 Sith Lords for Novel Vitiate.

How one thinks Nathema and Dromund Kaas are the same planet is beyond me. On Dromund Kaas, Vitiate just sat his ass down and started building an empire. Nathema's where the draining happened.

And regarding that, it was a ten-day ritual. How one thinks this can be used in combat is, again, beyond me.

Is Palpatine's feat superior? Sure, because he conducted it with no strain of effort while Vitiate's was a test of his strength in the Dark Side that could potentially kill him. But that does not put Palpatine's Byss feat on a completely different level as Vitiate's because of the similarities in their feats.

Source?

And yes it does, lol. Vitiate's feat is that of dark side knowledge, and nothing combative. Sidious' is that of Force Drain, Telepathy, and Force Illusions.