Ultimate Captain America v.s Batman

@floopay: Do Ultimate Wolverine, Black Panther, or the Super Soldiers that Ultimate Captain America fought have any documented martial training? Or better yet have they accomplished anything martially comparable to Batman mastering 127 martial arts, knowing every pressure point on the human body, knowing obscure one shot kill techniques like the Vibrating Palm and Leopard Blow, mastered other special martial techniques like the Falling Leaf/Steel Mountain Push/The Phoenix Eye Fist, can put down class 100's with pressure point attacks, stopping breathing via pressure points, disabling a human arm and subsequently restarting it via pressure points, has reversed said techniques so precisely that they can't be differentiated from the original, etc. Like I said, Ultimate Captain America and the people he has bested know how to fight, but you're not really going to bring anything from a technical standpoint that is remotely comparable to most of the stuff that I mentioned. Ultimate Captain America not knowing remotely as many martial arts as Batman is a big strike against him when trying to compare him to Batman martially. Comic book writers don't understand things like that knowing one style can be just as good as knowing 100. Quantity is everything in regards to your competence martially in comics. That's why when writers try establish someone as a top tier martial artist they usually do so through explaining the ludicrous amount of martial arts that they know.

Ultimate Cap is not really comparable to Batman in a martial sense.

@floopay Wolverine didn't move against him. He just splayed his claws and Cap shot him. Not really outfighting Wolverine now, is it?

Cap stomps

I bet that if I were to walk into a room and shoot you...you wouldn't refer to it as losing a fight :-P

So him taking initiative over someone who has outraced Ultimate Hawkeye and almost skewed Ultimate Quicksilver doesn't constitute a fight? Why? Because he didn't give Ultimate Wolverine a chance to get a strike?

Both of them drew weapons to start a fight, and Ultimate Cap used words and draw speed to take Wolvie out before he got his chance to attack.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@shawnbaby:

And Bruce, with no prep or prior knowledge about Steve, is extremely unlikely to use a lot of his heavier ordnance at the start of the battle.

Fair enough. Was just pointing out that Batman has options.

@floopay It's not outfighting him. I could walk up Anderson Silva and shoot him in forehead. Doesn't mean I outfought him.

Options that are usually reserved as a Last Resort and can still be blocked, dodged, or tanked. Unlike his 616 counterpart...Ultimate Steve doesn't hold back. He puts his enemies down hard,fast, and brutal.

You outgunned him, You outpaced and you outdrew him.

You outfought him while playing on your strong suits, and not letting him use his strong suits.

It would be kind of hard to dodge a taser that can be set off just when Ultimate Cap just touches Batman, and it's not like he'll be expecting that his opponent can turn himself into a living taser either. How does one dodge freeze pellets that have a fairly large are of effect? How does one dodged knockout gas? I understand that Batman isn't going to pop these things out at the beginning of the fight, and it would most likely be too late when he does so, but if he does, it's pretty much over for Steve. Wouldn't really say that 616 Steve holds back so much as that he isn't as loose morally as Ultimate Cap can be.

The Shield can block the freeze pellets..and Cap's Durability speaks for itself.

Thank you, someone who sees my point.

After reading a lot of the Dark Elf books, I started looking at "fights" differently. The winner of a fight is the one who lives or survives. The loser is the one who dies or falls.

If an assassin sneaks up on the world's greatest martial artist and slits his throat, it's the martial artist's fault for not being more aware. If an assassin gets caught trying to slit someone's throat, and gets beaten to death, it's his fault for not being stealthy enough.

Some people don't do straight up combat, they rely on any one of a thousand other tactics, and at the end of the day: quick draw, stealth, long shot, short game, medium game, versatility, etc. They are all methods to win out in combat, and some win a fight before the opponent even knows it has started. I find all these methods equally respectable.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@shawnbaby: Refer to my previous post, I wholeheartedly believe in that scenario, I had lost that fight.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Steve

And I'm loving @wolverine08 right now.

The freeze pellets possess a pretty big area of effect.

If Steve tries to block them via his shield, he'll most likely end up getting his arms or half of his body frozen in the process.

Frankenstein was a class 15 and he got dropped by Batman's taser:

Steve isn't tanking that, and he can't dodge knockout gas.

Everybody loves me.

@wolverine08: You're debating for Batman here against Ult Cap and I'm debating Wolverine against Ult Spidey?

Woah. This is simultaneously both weird and awesome.

And I believe that by shooting you, I would have prevented a fight from happening. Which is exactly what's Ultimate Cap's intention was when he shot Wolverine....to avoid a fight.

Snipers don't fight either. They shoot.

Hiroshima didn't "lose a fight" against Little Boy.

@wolverine08: Those Freeze pellets only drop the room temp by 100 degrees. That would freeze the air and mildly inconvenience a guy who can run around in -100 F or lower without a jacket (Him vs the Red Skull in Antarctica), so there's that.

As for the taser, Frankenstein has a weakness against electricity, which is kind of a big deal.

As for the knockout gas, he's actually immune to almost every form of toxin, poison, gas, disease, illness, and etc. So there's that.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@wolverine08 said:

@comicstooge said:

@wolverine08: You're debating for Batman here against Ult Cap and I'm debating Wolverine against Ult Spidey?

Woah. This is simultaneously both weird and awesome.

Fighting off the indie invasion since 2014, yo.

Bats would need prep to compete with Ultimate Cap.

@wolverine08: And to help out, if we take Bruce's showing against Bane in their recent encounter, Bruce has a better chance of winning.In fact, I'm inclined to actually change my mind and go Bruce.Good job :).

Also not sure if that Frankenstein took on Shazam at the time either...

@wolverine08: Steve tanked hits from Ultimate Abomination. Without the Shield. Don't underestimate his ability to tank damage.

also...if you look at your scan...neither Bruce nor Selena were encased in Ice even though the blast was right on top of them. Area of effect...not very large.

@shawnbaby: That's blunt force though. Characters react differently to different forms of damage. Spider-Man can take class 100+ blows but if he were to be stabbed anywhere by a sword he'd be in serious trouble. Does Ultimate Cap have any showings against the level of electric output that Batman can throw out? And his healing factor really hasn't been shown to be potent enough to stave off knockout gas.

"Immunity to Toxins" pretty much covers knock out gas.

So what's your definition of a fight?

If two of us initiate in conflict, and I pull a dagger and stab someone, taking them by surprise, is that a fight or not? Because I would say this is an excellent showing of my stealth.

What if I do it with a gun? I would say luring you into a melee fight when I know I can take you at range is a showing of my cunning.

What if I ambush somebody and get a few hits on them before we exchange blows? Because I would say this is an excellent showing of my tactical prowess.

If I use a sword, is it still a fight? Because I would say this is a showing of superior finness.

How about guns? Because I would say this is a superior showing of my marksmanship.

A fight is just a confrontation that has a violent element. You can't chastise someone because their skillset in this category is different than someone else's. All of the above are fundamental skills of even the most basic fighters, and to survive someone would be best to master them all.

Fight SMART, not HARD, and if you have to, do both. That's fundamental, and Captain America fights SMART or he does BOTH. Picking, or starting a fight on your terms is always the smart choice if you have to choose to fight. That's all but a fact.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

So Ultimate Cap doesn't have showings of electrical showings on the level that Bruce can throw out ?Immunity to all toxins is on paper hype. I can bring up numerous character bios that say the same thing but end up being contrasted by on panel showings. Unless Ultimate Cap has shown that his healing factor is potent enough to stave off knockout gas, there's no reason for us to assume that he can.

@comicstooge said:

@wolverine08 said:

@comicstooge said:

@wolverine08: You're debating for Batman here against Ult Cap and I'm debating Wolverine against Ult Spidey?

Woah. This is simultaneously both weird and awesome.

Fighting off the indie invasion since 2014, yo.

These indie fans are going to have the natural order of things! Ultimate Cap's always going to running second place to mainstream badasses like Batman and bone claw Wolverine!

Bane was able to tank Bruce's Taser...his stats are comparable to Ultimate Caps. In fact...you can take that entire first fight between Bruce and Bane in the New 52 as evidence as to what happens here. Bruce was completely overwhelmed.

Bruce was already exhausted when the fight started, IIRC.

@frozen would know.

He was exhausted when they fought in Knightfall...not in New 52

New 52 Bane just recently got stomped by a fresh Batman. And like CS mentioned, I believe Batman was exhausted at the beginning of things. Like I said, I don't think that Batman will win here, but morals off, the amount of versatility he's sporting in comparison to Cap is something that can't be really answered or just rammed through.

@comicstooge: @shawnbaby: @wolverine08: In their 1st fight, that was a special more powerful Venom Bane used IIRC.

Correct.

@wolverine08: Read back and saw that wasn't the problem

Also Bruce actually managed to hurt New 52 Deathstroke while on the Special Venom too IIRC.

Outsmarting someone isn't the same thing as outfighting them.

This isnt a fight any more than a Drive-by Shooting is.

This isnt a fight any more than a Drive-by Shooting is.

Cap.

Batman beat Bane with a less potent version of Venom. The Special Formula was what gave Bane his Ultimate Cap Stats.

And Batman isn't Morals off here...so that point is immaterial.

I kinda thought the whole point of this conversation was that Bruce would lose due to the fact that he won't use everything in his arsenal, but if he was, he would win and you subsequently trying to disapprove of that notion?

@wolverine08: Originally I said Steve stomps because of the conditions of the battle...but even if Morals were off..there's nothing bruce has that gives him an Autowin. Could he maybe get a few out of 10 in a morals off situation? Sure...but he'd still lose more than he would win.

@shawnbaby: Bruce has gear on him that morals off would give him a majority. Ultimate Cap has no answer to sonics, freeze pellets, knockout gas, or a grapple gun that can restrain class 15's. There's also repeated tazing on the table of options. I'm also probably forgetting stuff.

@shawnbaby: It's the same thing when outsmarting them is what leads to you defeating them.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

We've already gone through his responses for Freeze Pellets, and Knockout Gas. The Batsuit Taser is a one-shot deal before it needs a recharging.

Not really. You said that the shield can block freeze pellets, but that's only really half the problem. With it's area of effect, Ultimate Cap can probably get his arms/legs, or possibly half his body frozen. The only defense you have against knock out gas is the generalized statement that appears on tons of character bios that is often contradicted. Ultimate Cap hasn't done anything to suggest that if he got gassed, he'd keep going. I'll lenient and say that he might be a little resistant, but two or so doses are going to put him out of fighting condition. If Steve gets one shotted by the Bat suit taser, why would it even matter if he needs to recharge it? Even then, if the taser doesn't one shot, the amount of power it packs would leave Ultimate Cap in no condition to do battle.

There's still no answer to Batman sending Ultimate Cap deaf or blowing his eardrums apart via sonics or simply restraining or piercing his body via the grapple gun. Ultimate Cap sole option is bashing Batman with his shield. Bruce's problem would be deciding among his options.

As I said, Bane tanked the taser with little effect. Saiko tanked the shock from Nightwing's without an instant KO either. These guys have stats that are on par or less than Ultimate Cap's...so it's reasonable to believe Cap could tank it as well.

The Freeze Pellet that you provided a scan of exploded directly over Batman and Catwoman...yet neither of them were encased in Ice at all. The only area of effect is the drop in temperature...which cap can handle.

Bruce's Sonics are not set to "Blow eardrums apart"....They are set to disable people without superhuman resistances and durability.

Cap can do a lot more than "Bashing Batman with his Shield". He's also been known to carry grenades, automatic weapons, etc. He's delivered hits that have harmed the Hulk...without the Shield. And he doesn't need to be morals off to use anything in his arsenal against Bruce.

Cap has been shown to be resistant to up to "half a pint of Tetrodotoxin"...which is a powerful neurotoxin. So yes...he has an answer to gas.

@wolverine08: So yeah...he can take a couple doses of Bruce's Knockout Gas.

The fact that Bane and Saiko tanked Batman's tasers are great feats of electric resistance considering that it one shotted Frankenstein. Why should we assume that just because someone whom phsycial strength on par with Ultimate Cap tanked it that he can. Strength doesn't equate to durability, and it's not like the Venom in Bane's veins is similar to the Super Soldier Serum in Cap's blood so I don't see why I should equate their resistance to different forms of attack. And considering that Batman's grapple gun has restrained class 15's and has pierced the should of Man Bats, if he gets a hold of Cap via it and can use his taser through his grapple, Ultimate Cap is in serious trouble.

Bruce has frozen entire beings via the pellets before. :

Blowing up Steve's eardrums was just a metaphor for Batman overwhelming his sense via the sonics.

Batman's current suit is actually bullet proof. So even if Ultimate Cap has a gun,(Which has been shown to be an on and off thing really) it can be countered. Plus, Batman has been shown to carry low end bombs himself.

Fair point about the gas, but the combination of gas along with pellets and tazing is the problem here.

I believe Batman can beat regular Captain America with a slight majority, but this? This is beyond unintelligent.

Ultimate Cap is comparable to Deathstroke, yes? Deathstroke regularly beats the crap out of Batman, yes? Therefore, Ultimate Cap beats the crap out of Batman.