the living tribunal vs lucifer morningstar

No. I just concluded and said that LT is beyond Multiversal, and listed him above IG Thanos & Adam Warlock. I saw more evidence and changed my mind.

@jardinain2:

Everything is spot on. but i still don't see proof for Lucifer being above IG much less LT. heck even Eternity is close to him in feats.

One feat. He is one third the force of Creation. It may well be the case that none of his other feats come close to this, and maybe others below him have similar feats close to his others, but he only needed to use his Creation feat the once.

@nemesisreloaded: Scans for that?

Either LT is powered by TOAA so he cant lose... /s (im just using the argument i see for Lucifer and Micheal winning fights. its highly annoying)

I realise that the LT is granted power by TOAA, but I do not believe it to be on the same scales, because as I say, Thanos took the Supreme Power, the Heart of the Universe, absorbed it into himself and took out LT and all others with ease. I dont believe TOAA would grant Thanos true Supreme Power, something close to appear as Supreme Power, but not enough to actually rival TOAA. On this basis I put HotU Thanos below TOAA and Presence. But as Gabriel and Yahweh himself say, the three together possess the power of Creation, either because Yahweh created them that way, or because they are actually aspects of God. Either way, and particularly the second, they are massively powerful.

@nemesisreloaded: But none of them besides Micheal has demonstrated massive amounts of power. the brothers are mostly statements of power i.e demiurgic power is the building block of everything or something along those lines but very little to go of off besides speculation.

Lucifer

Now you're talking semantics. A Demiurge is a deity that orders the material world out of chaos. They all do this. Michael takes the raw infinite power of Yahweh and unleashes the power that will form creation. Lucifer wields that power and actually forms creation, then Gabriel refines that form. Each of them are Demiurgic. A Demiurge is also a judge, and Lucifer #50 makes it clear they all do that. A Demiurge is also considered to be a heavenly being, subordinate to the Supreme Being, that is considered to be the controller of the material world and antagonistic to all that is purely spiritual. A Demiurge is also viewed as the originator of evil.

All of these attributes can fit Lucifer, most fit Michael and Gabriel, and some even fit the Living Tribunal.

Lucifer was also responsible for creating life, but that isn't written in that little bubble, they each did more than just what is said there. But even if Lucifer produced none of the energy that went into Creation, his job (according to the bubble) is to wield that infinite and concentrated energy. So given that's the case, what could the Living Tribunal do to Lucifer that his very nature wouldn't allow him to deal with?

As I say, Lucifer is 1/3 the force of creation, Living Tribunal can't compete with that.

Living Tribunal stomps

Been done to death and LT always wins.

@nemesisreloaded: I know what it means and how it works don't get me wrong. i just find there lack of feats annoying to debate against since most people use arguments like demiurgic power etc.

@jardinain2: I know what you mean. The limits of their power is never shown, and their high end is rare and indistinct. We're into a lot of grey area here, so I don't think there'll be an absolute answer. I feel happy enough in myself that I've come to an answer, but it's not one I'd be unhappy about someone feeling differently.

@nemesisreloaded: Yep i agree. until we see more feats from the Brothers we wont really know.

by power statements Micheal is probably above LT tho.

Living Tribunal would win after a good fight.

Don't know if he died but we will see in the next issue

@morningdawn12 said:

Don't know if he died but we will see in the next issue

Is this canon? Is this fanmade? WTF is this art?

@firsthunter: It's from Ultimates and no its not fan made

then lucifer wins, he can't die. LT can be killed.

@firsthunter: Let's be honest, there's no way those two dunderheads can beat the LT. New hierarchy or otherwise, they've already proven to be in too much of a power/conceptual flux to actually beat Galactus on their own, which is why they brought the LT in the first place. Either way the current LT of the 8th Cosmos is literally an entirely different character (Adam Warlock) than the one from the 7th Cosmos.

LT still remains the winner!

Lucifer easily .

I am still pissed by all of this. Hopefully Adam picks up the mantle as New LT quickly.

OT: Living Tribunal stomps.

@sirmethos: Michael nor Lucifer is Omnipotent The Presence isn't even Omnipotent and he's above both of them. He said it himself "there's still onenjoy above me" and "the only thing I cannot do is create myself"

So even if they were together they would not be Omnipotent. Omnipotence is number 1, top dog, any and all things.

There can't be 2 people that's number 1, there's only 1 number 1 the same way TOAA is number 1 of his Comics.

Destroyed 2 megaverse >>>>>>> lucifer feats

PR Beyonder >Living Tribunal>>Lucifer Moriningstar

Nah , If both brothers were together I'd give them a win . Though just Lucifer alone will not be enough .

People really understate Lucifer's reality warping powers. Lucifer has the capacity to get rid of all existence outside of himself, Michael, the Presence, and the Great Evil Beast. He doesn't, but that is not a limitation on his powers, rather on his motivations. Lucifer without rules could take any fight (especially against a being with limited reality warping powers like Living Tribunal) and change existence to be such that the thing's role was filled by something else (i.e. existence without that thing). Whether Lucifer has power to manipulate something is binary. His limitations are almost purely in motivation, and his limitations outside of that are that he can't cause existence outside of himself and the three beings mentioned to begin).

Lucifer alone? Living tribunal

Guys, Lucifer wins, it's a fact. Why? Lucifer and Michael have both HALF of omnipotent power. Together, they are omnipotent, separete they have exaclty HALF of that power. A character who is at the same position in Marvel is FULCRUM, not Living Tribunal. Fulcrum has exactly half of OAA's power, he is an exact equal to Michael and Lucifer. Living Tribunal has a FRACTION of OAA's omnipotent power. How much we don't know, but it's not half, it's not even enough to compare with Heart of the Universe, hell I'm pretty sure pre-retcon versions of Beyonder and Molecule man are also more powerful then Living Tribunal. So if this was Lucifer vs Fulcrum it would be a tie, but since it's Living Tribunal he gets stomped.

@thoromdil:

Guys, Lucifer wins, it's a fact.

It is not a fact but rather your opinion.

Lucifer and Michael have both HALF of omnipotent power

That's not true and isn't even possible. You can't be "half of omnipotent"

Together, they are omnipotent,

This has been debunked countless times.

A character who is at the same position in Marvel is FULCRUM, not Living Tribunal. Fulcrum has exactly half of OAA's power, he is an exact equal to Michael and Lucifer.

Prove it.

The Living Tribunal wins. He is the right Hand of TOAA who is omnipotent.

@kingkronos: hmm sorry to burst your bubble but the presence his omnipotense its being said by lucifer when he fight the two demons that copy the power of the presence.

In shortly lucifer killed them using their own power and he clearly said that "their still not omnipotnse its a harder trick to master"

Whats clearly means that the presence has comeplete omnipotense power.

https://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/0/9116/533983-photo4.jpg

I cant seems to find the exact page that he said that however this page was part of it i suggust you read lucifer comics where they said that every atom in creation have the presence name on and when the presence left the creation. Well everything was about to be destroyed.

Lucifer is nigh omnipotense not comepletly omnipotense but he is clever enough i think that he can find a way to kill LT

Morningstar has the power of the presence. LT was fodderized by heart of the universe - which is the power of TOAA. Soooo Morningstar wins.

I have a theory that there is actually no single entity in the DC universe that is omnipotent or God. But however, many beings form this "God". The Source, The Presence, Micheal, The Voice, The Hand etc. All these beings are an aspect of omnipotence, rather than having one being carry all that power, maybe its split between all these powerful entities and together they form a bigger picture

Bad logic.

Late response but this doesn't make any sense...

So you're saying TOAA+Fulcrum=TOAA??

Anyways, LT ftw.

Lucifer might win..

Son of God vs Servant of God=Equal or Son

Lucifer takes it

@godzilla07: we all loose. But it's really a Tie when Lucy boy got the powers of Michael. Before... well the difference between them is quite large. Lucifer can sculpt the clay of existence, while Michael can create the clay from nothing. Living Tribunal can essentially do both.

Luficer stomps

Living Tribunal is the winner of this fight.

lucifer wins

spectre=L.T.

Stalemate, If Lucifer is bored.

Win with little effort, if Lucifer is a little serious.

Stomp, if Lucifer goes for the kill.

Lol, what can LT do to someone who is a outerversal (and nigh-omnipotent) being who is not afraid to fight his Father.

And please people, don't throw those "omniverse" non-sense that you "think" shows Marvel is larger than any other 3rd party"fictional" universes thus making Marvel more powerful. This is only applicable to Marvel-Disney owned creation.

For me - Marvel Omniverse = DC Multiverse = any other 3rd party company's multiverse.

@tuxedogreymon: LT can't create or destroy existance, he is also a part of it

LT wins. Lucifer doesn't have half the presences power. He has half the power used for creating the universe. Nowhere was it ever stated that creating the DC universe took 100% of his power. LT takes out people like Lucy as his day job.

thoaa>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>...........Presence

which means LT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LM

Lucifer wins.

Still Lucifer.

I'm done arguing back and forth with Marvel fans who are too big and uppity over their Biggerversals and cannot comprehend the context behind the meaning of words depending on intent and meaning.

Prb is a match for Lucifer

Tribunal

@supermanthor said:

Who is Prb?