The Joker vs Purple Man

Scenario-

On a boring Monday morning The Joker decides he needs to kill some time before Batman comes out at dusk. He ditches Harley at some motel (lovely girl but damn if she doesn't get on his nerves) and heads to a nearby diner. The patrons are of course shocked and on the verge of panic as soon as he enters, but he plays it cool and calmly orders some food at the bar. Eventually everybody gets over it.

Later on the Purple Man coincidentally enters the same diner. Getting a look at this bozo even more colorful than himself, Joker can't help but bust into hysterics. Purple Man is annoyed and announces to the bar that everybody should stop breathing. For reasons he cannot explain, Joker feels compelled to listen, but at the same time realizes that if he stopped breathing he would also have to stop laughing...

Joker is armed with a pistol, acid flower, and half eaten tuna sandwich on rye. His belly is full. Purple Man is nursing a hangover and extremely irritated at everybody. He holds no weapons besides those stunning looks. What happens next?

Everybody knows that Thanos stomps

everyone knows all batman villains (batman is the best) can beat nearly every marvel villian. Batman makes his villains great.

Not an expert on purple man but this largely depends if Joker can resist his mind control/pheromones/whatever he does. I believe Doom once took of his mask and let purple man use his powers on him and resisted it off of pure will power to prove a point to purple man, but Dooms will power is pretty impressive. I don't know how joker compares.

The other thing is if Joker can kill everyone in the room.

It would depend on if Joker has any mind-control resistance feats. If he does then he should win, if not then the Purple Man wins. In the particular scenario that you wrote, the Joker wins. You already wrote that Joker resisted Purple Man's initial attempt to MC him, and that Purple used MC to kill everyone else in the room, thus eliminating any potential minions he could've used to help him.

The Joker is immune to many toxins, I think that he can resist the Purple man.

Really? When was this stated?

Sorry I got confused with Harley. The Joker was immune to the Scare Crow's Fear Toxin and all derivates from the Joker laughing gas.

A lot of people call Purple Man inconsistent. I'm finding him to be one of my new favorite Marvel villains, so I'm going to collect several instances of his showings against big name characters and examine exactly how his mind control works, and how effective it is.

First of all it is important to distinguish that his power is pheromone based. As in he secretes chemicals and such from his skin that when inhaled, put his victims in a state of mania where they are susceptible to his will. It is not telepathy and it is not hypnosis. Jessica Jones explains that he overpowers the victim's will itself. Other mind controllers control only the victim's body, the best example I can think of is in Resident Evil 5 where Albert Wesker uses the P30 serum to control Jill Valentine, and she later explains that she was completely conscious of her actions but could not control her body. However Purple Man is different, when he tells you to do something you do it because you want to. His will is now yours. That's what makes him so dangerous. He's very similar to Tao from Wildstorm in that regard, and that's what makes resisting him so difficult.

Now people point to a few encounters he's had with other heroes and call them inconsistencies in his powers, so let's take a look at them.

First is when Moon Knight resisted Purple Man by using earplugs. Some say that this implies Killgrave's power is not pheromone based, but actually sound based. However, read Moon Knight's dialogue.

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The earplugs did not protect him from Killgrave's control. He simply could not hear the actual commands, meaning he obviously could not follow them. This is a rather brilliant tactic on Moon Knight's part, and it exposes a weakness in Purple Man's abilities. His victim needs to know what he wants in order for their will to convert to his.

Second is when Daredevil resists because he can't "see" Purple Man, which implies his ability is somehow visual based. However once again, read the dialogue.

Daredevil's lack of sight simply aided in his concentration, nothing more.

Now their encounter in Daredevil: Yellow apparently expanded on this bit of dialogue and actually did make it the whole reason Matt could resist Purple Man, but Yellow isn't canon so it's perfectly possible that the Killgrave of that universe does indeed derive his powers from visual. However in the mainstream continuity, it's consistently pheromones that need to be inhaled.

So who has Purple Man actually tested his abilities against? Well here is where it gets contradictory. Several of the strongest wills in Marvel have been tested against him to... mixed results.

Doctor Doom-

Ignores them outright just to prove that he can. (Marvel Graphic Novel #27: Emperor Doom)

Captain America-

...Becomes a complete slave and reports Wonder Man to the White House the instant he doubts Doom, who had taken control of Killgrave's powers but did not improve them in any way. (Marvel Graphic Novel #27: Emperor Doom)

Daredevil-

Successfully resist, but with tremendous difficulty, and possibly only thanks to his enhanced concentration (Daredevil #147)

Wilson Fisk-

Ignores them almost as easily as Dr. Doom did. (Marvel Team-Up annual #4)

Spider-Man-

Doesn't even put up a fight (Marvel Team-Up annual #4)

Hawkeye, Iron Man, and other Avengers-

Immediately submissive as soon as they get within proximity of the pheromones. (Marvel Graphic Novel #27: Emperor Doom)

THE WHOLE FREAKIN WORLD-

Doesn't stand a chance. (Marvel Graphic Novel #27: Emperor Doom)

Purple Man obviously kept Jessica Jones as his slave for eight months, and also controlled Luke Cage, but he has another encounter with Luke Cage during The Pulse that I haven't read yet so I don't know how it goes.. And after Wonder Man just reminds Cap, Hawkeye, Iron Man, and Wasp that Doom is evil, they snap out of it. Although Iron Man very nearly relapses.

So far it seems like the willpower totem pole in Marvel goes Dr. Doom > Kingpin > Daredevil > Captain America > Hawkeye > the Wasp > Tony Stark > Spider-Man. AKA Dr. Doom holds more conviction than Captain America, Daredevil is weaker than his own arch nemesis, the Wasp is stronger than Iron Man, and Peter Parker is a pathetic useless tool. Hmm, interesting. Not sure I agree with this order.

So here is a theory to help reconcile these inconsistencies: to resist Purple Man, it helps to know that he is manipulating your will. Spider-Man had no idea what was happening when he met Killgrave, he didn't know these actions were not his own will. Purple Man just told him to do things and he said to himself "oh, okay, yeah I agree that sounds like a good idea."

By comparison, Kingpin knew what Purple Man could do. Same with Daredevil. They were able to tell themselves "No, this isn't what I really want." But Spider-Man didn't know that. Even if Purple Man told him to go kill Aunt May, Peter would decide that is what he wanted to do now. If he knew it was not actually his own will and it was Purple Man changing his will, than maybe he would have put up more of a fight.

Likewise, the Avengers and world's population did not know they were being manipulated until Wonder Man reminded them that Doom is not a very good guy.

HOWEVER that doesn't mean it's easy to resist Killgrave if you know whatsup. Like Jessica explained, they are still your thoughts and it requires a tremendous effort of will in order to overcome it. Even when his victim's are totally prepared, Purple Man has had no trouble controlling:

• Jessica Jones
• Scott Lang
• Mockingbird
• Scarlet Witch and several other Avengers
• Luke Cage for at least a little while (I do not know the result of this encounter, whether Cage resist or somebody stops him. All I know is that Killgrave has him under control for at least a little while)

It's also a fact that no 'normal' person can resist him, so I would say even with knowledge, it takes some tippety top tier will power in order to resist him.

I didn't say he resisted, I said the thought occurred to him that he would stop laughing, thus giving Joker incentive to maintain his own will and then leaving it open to your interpretations (I believe it's a requirement to resist Purple Man that you know he is trying to change your will, or in this case he asks you to do something that you really do not want to do. You can read my post above for a small breakdown)

The Joker should win this, Kilgrave`s abilities could work but I don`t see them really working to extreme lengths, the Joker might even surprise Kilgrave just by the way in which he is able to resist his wiles. I mean hasn`t the Joker in a way already proven this in his encounters with Poison Ivy? Whose powers work in a similar tone to that of the Purple Man?

Worth noting that Purple Man was able to shut off Genis-Vell's cosmic awareness once and given his is so good he has a hard time distinguishing the present from the future that pretty damn impressive.

I know very little about Purple Man. I think the Joker wins.

Joker all day everyday

@nickzambuto: I just went through marvel team up quickly. In regards to kingpin he actually had the ear plugs which moon knight used to resist purple man. Now he was having a conversation with purple man so he could hear him so it might still be possible he resisted purple man without but I think it makes more sense he prepped considering the ease in which he did it. He did mention they were special ear plugs so maybe they have different settings?:

Also it seems daredevil isn't as resistant in this issue as he was earlier (all though purple does reference the time Matt resisted him). Purple man actually notes his powers have increased (it also seems like using a microphone increases the effect of his power). All though it looks like he only used the microphone to get Matt to drop his billy club:

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As for your theory I think its wrong. Later in the issue Peter actually tries again to apprehend the purple man again after he saw some guys standing on there head, and Matt tells Peter that these guys were victims of purple man just like him. Also apparently physical shock can snap someone out of purple mans control:

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Thats pretty much everything in marvel team-up annual #4. I do remember Elektra resisting purple mans control in an issue of heroes for hire, but the explanation was she held her breath. According to comicvine purple mans pheromones can be absorbed through the skin so this is probably WIS:

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So it seems only Doom and Elektra can resist purple mans power, however in elektras case its questionable if the comicvine wiki is correct. Holding her breath shouldn't stop her skin from absorbing his pheromones so it seems only Doom can legitimately resist purple man. All though in regards to controlling the planet are you sure purple wasn't amped? I remember a debate about this a few years ago.

EDIT: I reread your scan with Jessica and noticed she mentioned Killgrave's pheromones can be absorbed through the skin. So I guess the elektra thing is WIS.

When has poison ivy used her pheromones on Joker?

Maybe I`m thinking of something else but in general The Joker is atleast very aware when it comes to these types of abilities I mean Bruce has been able to resist her pheromones it shouldn`t be a stretch to say that the Joker could do the same also considering his mental conditioning it would be hard for the Purple Man to play off of any kind of suggestion in the first place. The Joker wasn`t even remotely affected by Crane`s Fear Toxin although that is something totally different it does explain how he usually reacts to things dealing with mental manipulation.

@nickzambuto said:

Scenario-

On a boring Monday morning The Joker decides he needs to kill some time before Batman comes out at dusk. He ditches Harley at some motel (lovely girl but damn if she doesn't get on his nerves) and heads to a nearby diner. The patrons are of course shocked and on the verge of panic as soon as he enters, but he plays it cool and calmly orders some food at the bar. Eventually everybody gets over it.

Later on the Purple Man coincidentally enters the same diner. Getting a look at this bozo even more colorful than himself, Joker can't help but bust into hysterics. Purple Man is annoyed and announces to the bar that everybody should stop breathing. For reasons he cannot explain, Joker feels compelled to listen, but at the same time realizes that if he stopped breathing he would also have to stop laughing...

Joker is armed with a pistol, acid flower, and half eaten tuna sandwich on rye. His belly is full. Purple Man is nursing a hangover and extremely irritated at everybody. He holds no weapons besides those stunning looks. What happens next?

Dude, great match. Unfortunately/fortunately this becomes fan-fic. Purple-Man will exert his will over the Joker, and the Joker will become his puppet instantaneously! A dark, murderous, mind-f-ing series of comics crossing over from DC and Marvel, with heroes and villians alike falling by the wayside. But once they get to the Bats, the Joker will snap right out of it, explain that he was going along for the ride, and exclaim to the Purple-Man "you seemed like so much fun at first, but this one belongs to me!" He proceeds to take out Killgrave like his name was Luther Jr. No one is controlling the Joker's mind, but he won't mind giving you the wheel for a while.

@neongamewave:

Maybe I`m thinking of something else but in general The Joker is atleast very aware when it comes to these types of abilities I mean Bruce has been able to resist her pheromones it shouldn`t be a stretch to say that the Joker could do the same also considering his mental conditioning it would be hard for the Purple Man to play on any kind of suggestion in the first place.

Bruce usually uses a gas mask or something to resist Ivy:

Not that I would be surprised if Joker resisted poison Ivy but I don't believe he has.

The Joker wasn`t even remotely affected by Crane`s Fear Toxin although that is something totally different it does explain how he usually reacts to things dealing with mental manipulation.

Yea that's true. I don't know if that translates to purple man though since his pheromones are probably different in there chemical make up or whatever.

@jashro44:

Bruce usually uses a gas mask or something to resist Ivy:

In that scan you provided, Bruce while under the effects of Poison Ivy`s plants was still showcasing resistance most people just give in right away to the effects and aren`t as self-aware.

Not that I would be surprised if Joker resisted poison Ivy but I don't believe he has.

I agree, I was speaking more in the general sense in regards to his experiences with Poison Ivy and knowing her abilities.

Yea that's true. I don't know if that translates to purple man though since his pheromones are probably different in there chemical make up or whatever.

Good point and I agree but I think Purple Man would at least have a harder time with Joker than he has had with anybody else on the average also The Joker`s mind is all over the place quite literally so I don`t see how Kilgrave will be able to manipulate anything also looking at the characters he has managed to manipulate it would seem less likely.

@nickzambuto:

So purple man passes gas to make ladies fall in love with him?

Purple Man can control everybody and make them attack Joker

For a second there I thought you meant Purple Guy.

I was laughing pretty hard.

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto: I just went through marvel team up quickly. In regards to kingpin he actually had the ear plugs which moon knight used to resist purple man. Now he was having a conversation with purple man so he could hear him so it might still be possible he resisted purple man without but I think it makes more sense he prepped considering the ease in which he did it. He did mention they were special ear plugs so maybe they have different settings?:

Also it seems daredevil isn't as resistant in this issue as he was earlier (all though purple does reference the time Matt resisted him). Purple man actually notes his powers have increased (it also seems like using a microphone increases the effect of his power). All though it looks like he only used the microphone to get Matt to drop his billy club:

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As for your theory I think its wrong. Later in the issue Peter actually tries again to apprehend the purple man again after he saw some guys standing on there head, and Matt tells Peter that these guys were victims of purple man just like him. Also apparently physical shock can snap someone out of purple mans control:

Gallery

Thats pretty much everything in marvel team-up annual #4. I do remember Elektra resisting purple mans control in an issue of heroes for hire, but the explanation was she held her breath. According to comicvine purple mans pheromones can be absorbed through the skin so this is probably WIS:

Gallery

So it seems only Doom and Elektra can resist purple mans power, however in elektras case its questionable if the comicvine wiki is correct. Holding her breath shouldn't stop her skin from absorbing his pheromones so it seems only Doom can legitimately resist purple man. All though in regards to controlling the planet are you sure purple wasn't amped? I remember a debate about this a few years ago.

EDIT: I reread your scan with Jessica and noticed she mentioned Killgrave's pheromones can be absorbed through the skin. So I guess the elektra thing is WIS.

But there's no indication that Fisk was wearing the earplugs when he talked to Purple Man, he only gave them to the assassin later, not used them himself. It would make more sense that way since Fisk was visibly trembling when Killgrave told him to shoot himself, and he nearly did before snapping out of it. I don't think Fisk is the type to just play around like that for fun, he isn't really one for theatrics. He wouldn't have just pretended to be struggling and then deny the command just to mess with Killgrave, and also I don't think he would have had time to prepare the earplugs since he meets Purple Man very shortly after hearing of him. It makes more sense that he got them prepared later specifically for the assassin, because he knows his will probably isn't as strong as his own. Moon Knight does specifically state that the earplugs blank out "ANY" sound, and there's nothing to contradict that statement since the only two people who we know wore them (Moon Knight and the assassin) never responded to any sounds at all. So if we assume Fisk were wearing them, that would create a contradiction.

I obviously don't enjoy the idea of Kingpin having more conviction than Daredevil and Spider-Man (Fisk is a very strong person but making him stronger than the hero doesn't feel right. I feel like Fisk should just be a hair's breath weaker than his nemesis) but will power isn't something we can measure in such quantifiable, concrete numbers. Matt has proven his stronger will to Fisk in other scenarios; for example when Fisk ruined his life in Born Again, Matt coped, accepted it, and triumphed, but when Matt did the same thing to Fisk in Fall of the Kingpin, Fisk wasn't able to accept losing everything so graciously and lost more than a bit of his sanity. So when it comes to resisting Killgrave's control, perhaps Fisk (and Doom) just have more self control than Daredevil and Spider-Man, what with being so stubborn and prideful. They refused to let somebody else control their will, it's a matter of selfishness and arrogance. It doesn't mean that they are necessarily stronger than Spider-Man, Daredevil, or Captain America. For example if Purple Man's power was more standard mind control instead of changing somebody's will, I feel like the heroes would have a better chance of overpowering it than those villains would. And this fits with Daredevil doing better against Killgrave than Spider-Man did, because even though we both know how tough Peter is, Matt is definitely much more focused. Peter was having trouble distinguishing his thoughts and will from Purple Man's as shown with his confusion in the scans you posted, but Matt is more experienced and better trained so he can't be fooled that easily. It isn't 100% a matter of will power.

Now the reason Matt was eventually controlled by Purple Man in Marvel Team-Up whereas he resisted in the past is definitely because of the microphone. It's true that Killgrave's command to Daredevil to strangle himself wasn't spoken into the microphone, but I think the idea was that by that point, Daredevil was already under his control.

And as for Elektra, I think it makes sense that holding your breath can offer greater resistance to Purple Man's mind control, because absorbing the pheremones strictly through her skin would obviously be slower than inhaling them. So her body and mind was less effected because she had less of those chemicals in her system.

So in my interpretation, resisting Killgrave's control takes more than just raw will power, because it's not standard mind control. He is actually replacing your will with his own, when he tells Daredevil to strangle himself, it is not an involuntary action, Daredevil now WANTS to strangle himself. It takes tons of conviction in what you are doing in order for your own will to be distinguished from Purple Man's, which explains why self-righteous arrogant masterminds like Kingpin and Dr. Doom are able to deny Killgrave's will, while more easy going, open minded good guys have trouble. HOWEVER that is not to say resisting Killgrave does not require tremendous will power too, will power is just something you can't concretely define under one definition. It takes different types of will power so to speak. One character might be really strong willed because they can endure a lot of pain, but if a loved one dies they immediately lose their mind, while another character might be able to cope with the pain of loss but can't help but black out from pain if he's hurt too bad. Does this make sense?

@neongamewave:

In that scan you provided, Bruce while under the effects of Poison Ivy`s plants was still showcasing resistance most people just give in right away to the effects and aren`t as self-aware.

Well he actually put the nose filters in before the pheromones took full effect but even looking at it as he "briefly resisted" its clear he wouldn't have resisted for long.

I agree, I was speaking more in the general sense in regards to his experiences with Poison Ivy and knowing her abilities.

OK but Joker doesn't have any experience with pheromones that I can remember.

Good point and I agree but I think Purple Man would at least have a harder time with Joker than he has had with anybody else on the average also The Joker`s mind is all over the place quite literally so I don`t see how Kilgrave will be able to manipulate anything also looking at the characters he has managed to manipulate it would seem less likely.

Possibly. All though I don't think Jokers madness would help. I mean Joker is still aware of what he does he just doesn't care.

@nickzambuto Not really anything I can argue with. I'm a little on the fence with kingpin but I see your point.

@jashro44:

Well he actually put the nose filters in before the pheromones took full effect but even looking at it as he "briefly resisted" its clear he wouldn't have resisted for long.

Fair enough but that isn`t the only showing Bruce has when up against Poison Ivy he has resisted her pheromones before under different circumstances I could provide scans but I don`t think that will be neccessary.

OK but Joker doesn't have any experience with pheromones that I can remember.

That doesn`t mean that he wouldn`t be able to resist the Purple Man`s abilities though.

Possibly. All though I don't think Jokers madness would help. I mean Joker is still aware of what he does he just doesn't care.

The fact that he is aware supports both me and Nick`s point about the characters who were able to distinguish their will from Purple Man`s considering his abilities still fall under the category of suggestion rather than typical TP. An argument could be made in regards to if the Purple Man has ever affected anyone like the Joker before who doesn`t really have a sane mind and even if it were to work, I think the Joker`s subconcious thoughts could weaken the effects considering his obsession with Batman.

@neongamewave:

Fair enough but that isn`t the only showing Bruce has when up against Poison Ivy he has resisted her pheromones before under different circumstances I could provide scans but I don`t think that will be neccessary.

OK.

That doesn`t mean that he wouldn`t be able to resist the Purple Man`s abilities though.

How so? If he has no feats against pheromones or chemicals similar to purple mans how are we suppose to accept joker is resistant?

The fact that he is aware supports both me and Nick`s point about the characters who were able to distinguish their will from Purple Man`s considering his abilities still fall under the category of suggestion rather than typical TP.

Possibly but I am still not sure if I believe kingpin did it off of sheer will and his conviction to his belief that he deserves to be in control.

An argument could be made in regards to if the Purple Man has ever affected anyone like the Joker before who doesn`t really have a sane mind and even if it were to work,

I don't see why joker being insane would make him immune to purple mans chemicals?

I think the Joker`s subconcious thoughts could weaken the effects considering his obsession with Batman.

How does Jokers obsession with batman weaken the effects?

@jashro44:

How so? If he has no feats against pheromones or chemicals similar to purple mans how are we suppose to accept joker is resistant?

Because Purple Man also hasn`t shown that he can manipulate a character like The Joker and his showing against Fear Toxin does tell us that the idea of The Joker having unique resistances to things many characters don`t proves that the chances of Purple Man`s manipulative powers working doesn`t seem all too likely.

Possibly but I am still not sure if I believe kingpin did it off of sheer will and his conviction to his belief that he deserves to be in control.

Nick`s explanation seems more plausible and I think the evidence enforces the plausibility the argument is that strong. There`s not enough evidence available that goes against it.

I don't see why joker being insane would make him immune to purple mans chemicals?

Because the Purple Man`s abilities still do affect the mind in some kind of way even though pheromones are the culprit, the mind does play its part in the scheme of things. The Joker`s "infatuation" for Batman defeats the purpose of what Purple Man`s abilities indicate and what they identify with which is getting the subject of control to be only thinking about the Purple Man.

How does Jokers obsession with batman weaken the effects?

I explained this above but as what was shown with the Purple Man`s abilities he does get the victim to essentially do what he wants and what they want at the end of the day but what the Joker thinks about 24/7 is the Batman.

@neongamewave:

Because Purple Man also hasn`t shown that he can manipulate a character like The Joker and his showing against Fear Toxin does tell us that the idea of The Joker having unique resistances to things many characters don`t proves that the chances of Purple Man`s manipulative powers working doesn`t seem all too likely.

Well again how does Jokers insanity set him apart from everyone else? As for fear toxin I agree it shows jokers resistance to some toxins but as I said purple mans chemicals are different.

Nick`s explanation seems more plausible and I think the evidence enforces the plausibility the argument is that strong. There`s not enough evidence available that goes against it.

I know.

Because the Purple Man`s abilities still do affect the mind in some kind of way even though pheromones are the culprit, the mind does play its part in the scheme of things.

Yea but as Nicks scan with Jessica shows above what purple man wants you to think/believe becomes what you actually think/believe. Purple mans will overrides that of the person he's controlling making what he wants you to think what you think. If Joker can't overcome the pheromones it wont matter if he is insane because purple mans will, will override jokers making jokers will the same as purple mans:

Jessica couldn't tell the difference between what purple man made her do and what she actually did. It will be the same thing with Joker. If purple man does successfully override jokers will and tells him to not kill anyone he will do that and Joker will think he isn't doing that because he doesn't want to kill. Same deal when purple man made Peter swing around the lamppost, when Peter came home to Aunt May he didn't know that something happened until he looked at his photos and remembered what purple man made him do. And the only reason Peter bothered to check his photos to see what was wrong was because his spider-sense went off when the news mentioned purple man's car, prior to that Peter didn't think it was strange that he was on top of a lamppost singing Elvis Costello (all though that might have been because purple told Peter he was never there):

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It basically comes down to if the pheromones work on joker, and if joker can avoid purple man overriding his will. I don't think insanity will be a factor because purple man might be able to make joker sane with the right suggestions.

The Joker`s "infatuation" for Batman defeats the purpose of what Purple Man`s abilities indicate and what they identify with which is getting the subject of control to be only thinking about the Purple Man.

Now I see what your saying.

The guy is a serial rapist.

Deeply disturbing content.

Absolutely none of these women are there of their own free will.

Purple Man is easily one of the most disturbing characters I've ever seen.

Extreme stomp for:

@alphaq: Rape is a pretty bad thing, whoever it happens to, but that isn't uber-doober disturbing. Are you seriously telling me that the Joker, who deforms and tortures people (physically and mentally) is less worse than than a guy that either captures or pays ladies to be his maids/slaves? I mean, it's pretty bad, but ONLY that point isn't enough to call him "one of the most disturbing characters you've ever seen". In this aspect (who does worse/who is more disturbing) Joker LITERALLY curb stomps.

@gamejutsu: Well I find him disturbing for more than just the rape.

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But my finding him disturbing is just an emotional response. Other characters like Tarkin, who blew up Alderaan in A New Hope, I feel nothing towards despite that being much worse than anything Kilgrave has done.

Joker apparently

@jashro44:

Well again how does Jokers insanity set him apart from everyone else? As for fear toxin I agree it shows jokers resistance to sometoxins but as I said purple mans chemicals are different.

Well the reason why I put emphasis on the Joker`s madness and phychological indifference is because of the Purple Man`s limits. How do we know if the Purple Man`s abilities would work in the same way we imagine them to? The Joker is too unpredictable to predict when discussing a proper scenario unlike some characters where the answer is so defined that it is a definite.

Yea but as Nicks scan with Jessica shows above what purple man wants you to think/believe becomes what you actually think/believe. Purple mans will overrides that of the person he's controlling making what he wants you to think what you think. If Joker can't overcome the pheromones it wont matter if he is insane because purple mans will, will override jokers making jokers will the same as purple mans:

I seen those scans already and I do plan on picking up some of the comics in trade paperpack form. The problem though is that there can also be a separation from what you want and what he wants he`s merely suggesting it to you, the Joker`s mind is clouded, fuzzy while conscious and clear it does meddle in the affairs of what we would call "blurring the lines" there`s nothing really concrete. The Purple Man might be successful in suggesting something to the Joker but once he realizes that it may go against his actual purpose for existing merely because of the fact that Batman exists, then I could see a change in which he snaps out of it. The Purple Man could make him sane but has he met anyone as insane as the Joker?

Jessica couldn't tell the difference between what purple man made her do and what she actually did. It will be the same thing with Joker. If purple man does successfully override jokers will and tells him to not kill anyone he will do that and Joker will think he isn't doing that because he doesn't want to kill. Same deal when purple man made Peter swing around the lamppost, when Peter came home to Aunt May he didn't know that something happened until he looked at his photos and remembered what purple man made him do. And the only reason Peter bothered to check his photos to see what was wrong was because his spider-sense went off when the news mentioned purple man's car, prior to that Peter didn't think it was strange that he was on top of a lamppost singing Elvis Costello (all though that might have been because purple told Peter he was never there):

It could be and I`m not saying that the Purple Man`s methods wouldn`t work only that it wouldn`t work like the way he might expect. It would be more temporary than anything what was shown with Kingpin makes me believe that the Joker himself would be too stuck up and stubborn to accept any kind of suggestion, TP is a different case but I think the Joker could handle this situation. Who knows, the Joker might even accept Kilgrave`s ways but I do think the laugh will be on Kilgrave in the end he could be fooled into believing that he manipulated the Joker only for it to backfire on him and the difference with Peter Parker is that he is quite gullible at times and unguarded so for him to be overpowered by Kilgrave`s abilities only for the Spider-Sense to save him makes a lot of sense. The Joker is different he wouldn`t give in as easily or be as unaware and unprepared his mind is a wildcard, Kilgrave has challenged mostly sane and clear-minded individuals he has never ever had to override the thought patterns of someone like the Joker, the Clown Prince of Crime.

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I mean J`onn J`onzz of all people was struggling to keep Joker sane and his mind was described as being a "raging storm" I know Purple Man works more with chemical functionality in regards to pheromones but it still does line up with the same line of reasoning when it comes to having the Joker rendered sane by manipulation.

It basically comes down to if the pheromones work on joker, and if joker can avoid purple man overriding his will. I don't think insanity will be a factor because purple man might be able to make joker sane with the right suggestions.

I agree but insanity should be accounted for because Purple Man does indeed deal with matters of the mind regardless of how specific we get with the mechanics (pheromones and bodily chemicals) also Joker always has Batman at the back of his mind so subconsciously there would be a trigger if Purple Man asked the Joker to do something that went against that.

@alphaq: He does stomp tho XD.

Real question of the thread: Will David Tennant be able to hold a candle to Heath Ledger in his portrayal of an unspeakably cruel comic book villain?

@neongamewave:

Well the reason why I put emphasis on the Joker`s madness and phychological indifference is because of the Purple Man`s limits. How do we know if the Purple Man`s abilities would work in the same way we imagine them to? The Joker is too unpredictable to predict when discussing a proper scenario unlike some characters where the answer is so defined that it is a definite.

Because being unpredictable or insane has nothing to do with pheromones.

I seen those scans already and I do plan on picking up some of the comics in trade paperpack form. The problem though is that there can also be a separation from what you want and what he wants he`s merely suggesting it to you, the Joker`s mind is clouded, fuzzy while conscious and clear it does meddle in the affairs of what we would call "blurring the lines" there`s nothing really concrete.

Based on what Jessica said that doesn't seem to be the case.

The Purple Man might be successful in suggesting something to the Joker but once he realizes that it may go against his actual purpose for existing merely because of the fact that Batman exists, then I could see a change in which he snaps out of it. The Purple Man could make him sane but has he met anyone as insane as the Joker?

I don't know if he's met anyone as insane as the joker but it his powers were used to control the whole world than that tells me insanity isn't a factor since there are plenty of insane people on the planet.

It could be and I`m not saying that the Purple Man`s methods wouldn`t work only that it wouldn`t work like the way he might expect. It would be more temporary than anything what was shown with Kingpin makes me believe that the Joker himself would be too stuck up and stubborn to accept any kind of suggestion, TP is a different case but I think the Joker could handle this situation.

Well with resistance feats to pheromones this seems to be subjective.

Who knows, the Joker might even accept Kilgrave`s ways but I do think the laugh will be on Kilgrave in the end he could be fooled into believing that he manipulated the Joker only for it to backfire on him and the difference with Peter Parker is that he is quite gullible at times and unguarded so for him to be overpowered by Kilgrave`s abilities only for the Spider-Sense to save him makes a lot of sense. The Joker is different he wouldn`t give in as easily or be as unaware and unprepared his mind is a wildcard, Kilgrave has challenged mostly sane and clear-minded individuals he has never ever had to override the thought patterns of someone like the Joker, the Clown Prince of Crime.

Gullibility doesn't have much to do with pheromones.

I mean J`onn J`onzz of all people was struggling to keep Joker sane and his mind was described as being a "raging storm" I know Purple Man works more with chemical functionality in regards to pheromones but it still does line up with the same line of reasoning when it comes to having the Joker rendered sane by manipulation.

That's because J'onn needs to actually enter Jokers mind. This is more of a TP resistance feat which as you said is different. Its like if you go outside in a huge thunder storm, you can only stay out there so long. Same deal with J'onn and jokers mind. Purple man doesn't have that problem.

I agree but insanity should be accounted for because Purple Man does indeed deal with matters of the mind regardless of how specific we get with the mechanics (pheromones and bodily chemicals)

Purple man doesn't enter jokers mind though.

also Joker always has Batman at the back of his mind so subconsciously there would be a trigger if Purple Man asked the Joker to do something that went against that.

Well purple man is unlikely to suggest something that goes against that.

@jashro44: doom has mystism and trains in mental blocking. It is almost impossible to tp him... Purple man doesn't read minds so this is really a mismatch as joker has no way to stop him from making him do whatever he wanted... I do believe that if joker could eventually be immuned to it tho and could eventually beat him

@jashro44:

Because being unpredictable or insane has nothing to do with pheromones.

The point is that what the Purple Man would usually expect may not come to fruition because of that fact, he`s never gone up against a character like the Joker before.

Based on what Jessica said that doesn't seem to be the case.

She never said anything that contradicts with the mechanic of suggestion. On the contrary everything she told Luke Cage supports what I had to say in regards to the Purple Man and his methods.

I don't know if he's met anyone as insane as the joker but it his powers were used to control the whole world than that tells me insanity isn't a factor since there are plenty of insane people on the planet.

Quantity doesn`t by any means equal quality. That`s speculative to say the least and you sure there wasn`t any context to that particular feat? When does he go about controlling the whole world on the average, pretty much the consistent level?

Well with resistance feats to pheromones this seems to be subjective.

To a degree yes but the subjectiveness of it is debatable with the conscious of the questioned facts being favorable more towards what I said earlier about the Joker`s feats in relation to resisting any kind of control his case being MM`s telepathy.

Gullibility doesn't have much to do with pheromones.

It kind of does when it has connective context to the character`s resistance level.

That's because J'onn needs to actually enter Jokers mind. This is more of a TP resistance feat which as you said is different. Its like if you go outside in a huge thunder storm, you can only stay out there so long. Same deal with J'onn and jokers mind. Purple man doesn't have that problem.

Still very impressive and beyond anything the Purple Man could hope to achieve also pheromones do still connect to the mind in regards to chemical signals. He will though because he still has to manipulate the Joker`s will regardless if he`s using TP or not and his feats against certain characters does play a factor in the argumentation.

Purple man doesn't enter jokers mind though.

He doesn`t have to just as long as he suggests something that has something to do with the mind and remember even with the pheromonal control the mind still has to respond.

Well purple man is unlikely to suggest something that goes against that.

Are you sure? Because since Batman is always in the Joker`s mind I`m pretty sure the small details would be as big as the big details. The Purple Man may try to get the Joker to commit something that goes against that ideology, murder being a very obvious example that alone supports what I have been saying in regards to the Purple Man doing something to trigger a certain thought in The Joker`s mind.

@neongamewave: I'm going to agree to disagree since I feel like we are going in circles.

Well purple mans abilities are pheromones. Likewise I believe the whole point of doom taking his mask off was that he was shielding himself from purple man with his mask, and he took it off to show his will could overcome it. I haven't read that story however.

@jashro44:

I'm going to agree to disagree since I feel like we are going in circles.

Fair enough.

@nickzambuto: Neat scans.

Joker wins... a one way trip to death.

No one has offered any explanation as to how Joker wouldn't succumb to the Purple Man's abilities. Bat-fans' undying love will not save the Joker in this scenario. Purple Man could just as easily tell everyone in the diner to kill the Joker, and just walk outside during the ensuing melee, and then tell everybody within earshot to go into the diner and kill the Joker.

The Joker has resisted powerful telepathy from Martian Manhunter, who is leagues above Purple Man in terms of feats and skills in using telepathy!

I dunno, man, that half eaten tuna sandwich on rye is OP.

@nickzambuto: More than likely Joker would resist the affects and kill the annoying Purple Man. Then once he dies everyone becomes back to normal again, and they start chanting on The Joker in which he recruits over 20 new goons.

Purple Man is a textbook jobber and loses constantly, though this is mostly because his powers are, on paper, extremely broken so he tends to lose due to dumb contrivances or inconsistent weakness.

However Joker isn't a particularly strong willed character and according to OP he doesn't have prior knowledge so I don't think he would have any other workarounds for Killgrave's powers. So Killgrave should probably win. I would still give most strong-willed characters like Batman the win over Killgrave though just based on his history.