The Jell-O Thread (PC Superman vs Sun Wukong)

@rozalia: Talking about GOD's feats is just a little strange。。。。

@powerwoman said:

Well you got to when people stoop down to the level of "my god can beat up your god" you got to talk about these things. Also while the whole creator thing is well known its also highly suspect as while evil forces such as Lucifer who depending on the source you go by may or not be Satan (common occurrence was to merge two beings together and as Satan was while the most loyal, also the most harsh of all the angels he seemed "bad" enough to combine into Lucifer). Yahweh is not the creator of Dagon or any other gods, in fact people seem to think that these gods aren't considered real in the bible while Yahweh himself acknowledges them as gods.
Yahweh is as mentioned a jealous god that wants all followers to be his so his little creation story is extremely suspect as a result which is why there could be a lot of truth in some people's saying that Yahweh was a simple Moon God who his followers elevated to God of Creation.

@rozalia: But the GOD creater everthing,right?this is big feats though..

@limpoyzloan: I thought his staff is infinite weight, and he can lift it like a feather.

Sun Wukong.

Why are we going into Yahweh and stuff now?

Let's clarify a few things:

1. Wukong cannot take any form he desires, as he is unable to complete his tail transformation.

2. This fight is pointless, since Wukong literally cannot die unless an omnipotent being or a being more powerful than life and death ordains it. Superman is not within that level of power.

3. Buddha's story is complicated, but at least in some beliefs he is omnipotent.

The staff is not infinitely heavy, it has a finite weight of 8, 100 kilograms, but yes, Sun Wukong can life it easily.

@angryhulks: Are your arguments based on Sun Wukong's inability to win this fight? Well, its more or less his inability to lose this fight.

However, Wukong isn't even remotely in the whereabouts of abstract beings, let alone TOAA. Yes, he loses to Eternity.

ShootingNova, the ComicVine's mythology expert said that Wukong can't transform into everything he desired.

Yes, Wukong can't become anything he wishes, but I'm not infallible, just to let you know.

Yahweh was established as omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent

Yahweh/God is a bit difficult to say. Yes, he is appreciated in religion as all-powerful, all-knowing and ever-present, yet one cannot be omnibenevolent if one is omniscient, and I believe it is said that the Leviathan was slain by God and his mighty sword. Surely a being with omnipotent powers doesn't need any weapon to slay a legendary beast?

@shootingnova: Okay, Thanks.

when did God slay the Leviathan?

Well, the OP didn't stated what it takes for a contestant to win this, so we go by standard rule. Death or KO, which the former is not possible, but the latter is.

Immortality doesn't guaranteed protection from being incapacitate or KO, we know that Wukong does have several weaknesses, Superman can just physically KOed him or keep him down by high frequency sonic singing.

And about God slaying Leviathan with sword, it's probably looks cooler to give God a sword, even though more sensibly he should have wished Leviathan away.

seriously, Wukong stood up to all sorts of Gods, I don't think clark can match him

We have to define how powerful those Gods is first, and from my interpretation from reading Chinese myth, those "gods" didn't really have impressive powers as one might think. There're still a lot of people out there believing that Wukong can easily beat Living Tribunal, and so far what he have done is sole physical feats, not god-like feats.

Houyi killed 9 suns in a day, each of which was equivalent to the Earth's sun

Oh double dear. Goku AND religion in one versus?

He did it weapons, not by his own power, albeit Thor can do that with Mjolnir also.

Superman literally throw red giant, which could be thousands of times larger than our own sun at his godlike cosmic opponent, not only that, his ice breath have extinguish those stars before, these feats easily eclipse Houyi's divine weapons.

About "each of which was equivalent to the Earth's sun," where do they stated that? I also recall that there're sun deity in Chinese myth.

@powerwoman said:

...I dealt with that in my post. We have Yahweh's own word and nothing else. Yahweh himself acknowledges there are other gods about who obviously weren't created by his hand so why should we believe he created everything? If a Demiurge like scenario was the truth then another grander "god" created everything and Yahweh assumed the mantle of Creator God in his arrogance.

@angryhulks said:

Pretty faulty logic there. Why would Yahweh care to be "cool"? Also a sword isn't the only weapon Yahweh has lying about. I recall a story involving some people going to heaven and seeing Metatron who they believe to be Yahweh due to his majesty. Yahweh being jealous whips Metatron with a flaming whip to show he is the only god.

You mentioned TOAA being equal to Yahweh which is a big alarmbell as I pointed out there is holes in all this apparent strength.
To be honest the existence of Norse, Greek and such gods in comics and a Yahweh analogy being stronger then them all is a load of rubbish.

You realize most religion are written by people right? That's why they can write anything even if it doesn't sounds sensible, or something that your literature teacher would hate to his guts. The people who wrote about God slaying Leviathan with a sword probably think it makes God looks "cooler" perhaps? But Abrahamic God is still stated to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent as I've mentioned before. I just mean that in most interpretations, Norse, Greek, and Chinese mythology doesn't have similar concept. In Abrahamic teaching, God create all there is, including the universe and Earth (God have no beginning and no end). While in Chinese and Greek (not sure about Norse), the universe spontaneously come into existence from void, and the lesser deity was born and create the Earth and man (Gods in such mythology can be killed physically, they have defined beginning and some of them even have death).

when did he throw a red giant? or freeze suns?

and all suns share the same ancestryhttp://english.cri.cn/1702/2005-4-29/121@232925.htm

@powerwoman: You just realized this is spite come on Wukongs stomps easily.

@angryhulks: Wukong can not turn into anything he disires I know but he can turn his hair into anything he desires including his staff.

The power level of Wukong greatly differs. To some people he is a great sage equaling all of heaven surpassing most comic book characters these days. To some the heaven is nothing and beings like Superman Prime and Pre crisis Superman would give him a hell of a battle beings like Rune King Thor would obliterate him. The power of Wukong differs one guy would say he can beat Galactus with a snap of a finger and another dude can say he is just a average sky father leveled being. People greatly underestimate Wukong on this site.

Nah, I have been to many debate forum like this and Wukong is highly overestimated. People think he can easily beat Living Tribunal, base on what? Good luck thinking Wukong can beat abstract with just physical power alone (which is what he only shows).

Wukong is clearly below Eternity level, far below him, and that's mean that it's more than possible for Superman to beat him.

For people who really interpret the myth correctly, this is closer to good battle than a stomp.

You shouldn't be questioning about when did he do that, it's suppose to be common knowledge concerning PC Superman, virtually nothing is impossible to him. He didn't only throw it once, he throw like over 5 times if I remembered correctly. I'll find you a scan, not now, but keep in mind that PC Superman did this effortlessly.

@angryhulkssaid:

And about God slaying Leviathan with sword, it's probably looks cooler to give God a sword, even though more sensibly he should have wished Leviathan away.

An incredibly poor excuse. God is not a warrior, it would be much more sensible to have God destroy the Leviathan at will. "Cooler" does not excuse something that appears inappropriate.

Besides, how can an omnipresent entity use a sword? Well, he can, but it just doesn't seem right.

@rozalia said:

You mentioned TOAA being equal to Yahweh which is a big alarmbell as I pointed out there is holes in all this apparent strength.

To be honest the existence of Norse, Greek and such gods in comics and a Yahweh analogy being stronger then them all is a load of rubbish.

I never mentioned anything about TOAA being equal to Yahweh. I think you're getting mixed up.

@shootingnova said:

As I said Yahweh also has a whip so it isn't a single instance where he uses weapons, he has a history of using weapons when he personally does things. I don't recall a single instance of Yahweh defeating anyone by willing them out of existence. If he could do that then why wouldn't he just do that instead of having to send his forces lead by Michael to clash with Lucifer's.

All versions have Yahweh as being weak so I don't see where all the blind hype comes from. Michael has more feats, Jesus who in some versions IS Michael has more feats as he not only defeated Lucifer and his forces when they rebelled but he also stormed hell and defeated Lucifer and all his forces again (which were a lot stronger at that point). Yahweh was as per usual completely powerless to free the people in hell from Lucifer so how does he have absolute power exactly when one of his servants easily did what he could not.

For all his supposed omnipotence Metatron is nearly equal to him, Michael/Jesus is beyond him and Lucifer has proven to be more then a match.

Seems to be getting more out of hand than staying on track. Sun Wukong, very easily.

@rozalia: I'm not going far so as to say the Michael > Yahweh (he certainly is not attributed to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent or "beyond God") and I believe Jesus = God, or something like that? I'm not religious, so I'm behind on these things.

scans would be nice

@shootingnova said:

Bad choice of words. I was more saying Michael is beyond Yahweh in that he is shown to do things Yahweh cannot.

As for the case of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Well that is one of the many versions around though its a very popular version indeed. It's also the only version (outside god is evil versions) where Yahweh actually does something.

Essentially it takes feats and events other characters did and attributes them to Yahweh because as mentioned, if they don't do that he is left looking pretty useless. However even if you were to attribute Micheal/Jesus's achievements to him it still makes no sense how he requires a gambit to free the people in hell from Lucifer. If the hype was true then surely he could "wish" those souls to safety.

It's not my excuse, I didn't write the Torah O_o

I'm just bringing up a sarcastic answer to why would God have a sword. People write religious text themselves, so they basically can put anything they wants, if they want to give all-powerful being a sword to kill something infinitely weaker, they can. If God simply wished someone out of existence, that sounds really boring right?

Those are the old viners. Right now many is underestimating Wukong. The true limit of Wukong's power is unknown for at the end of Journey to the West he became a god which increased his powers to ridiculous levels. Wukong taking down the Living Tribunal is pretty dumb I know at most his around Pheonix level even lower I would say around Rune King Thor level. The only version of Wukong who might come close to the Living Tribinal is the one after Journey to the West we will never know.

I check the OP, it didn't said anywhere that it's Wukong at the end of the story, that version have absolutely no feats, and transcending to godhood doesn't always say his power would increase. It just said that he's just been enlightened, a concept in Buddhism where one broke free from the reincarnation cycle, nothing said about power.

Wukong is probably not even on Odin's level, the reason? Wukong have relatively basic sorcery capability, and he have almost no magic that can directly affect Superman anyway. Wukong does have capability to control the 4 classical elements, but fire won't irritate Superman, water can't drown him, he's tougher than any earth, and there's no wind that can overpower his star-moving thrust.

As I said, most of Wukong's power is physical and most of Chinese gods can be defeated physically. And Wukong apparently don't have enough strength to outmuscled PC Superman, and his combat speed doesn't seems to be on PC Superman's level.

And I'm giving you the idea that the universe in this Chinese mythology is only several times the diameter of the Earth, Wukong, in one leap can traveled just a little bit over 108,000 li, and he jumped to the end of the "universe" (actually it was the end of the world, not universe) with that leap, see that? PC Superman have jumped across planets and flew out of infinity, he's fast enough to time travel as well.

Even with immortality, Wukong still does have weaknesses which indicate that immortality does not grant him complete invulnerability. Here's the way PC Superman can beat Wukong in respect to the OP's rule.

1. Dump him in Phantom Zone (Wins by BFR)

2. Dump him in the far future (Wins by BFR)

3. Physically beating him unconscious (Wins by brawling)

4. Telepathy (I don't exactly remember, but there's one instance where the writer give Superman this power for one issue)

5. Smoked him to submission (Wukong weaknesses), yes, Superman can inhale the industrial smokes in huge volume and blew it on Wukong's eyes.

Quick question for those arguing that Sun Wukong is weaker because Chinese mythology/followers couldn't possibly know the true extent of the sun, universe and so on.

What about Abrahamic mythology? I'm sure some of you are believers so back up it up if you are. If Chinese mythology's concept of the world, sun, universe and so on are tiny compared to the real deal then what of the Abrahamic religions. After all it was only after the advent of science that the followers started believing that the world wasn't flat or that the sun didn't go around the earth. They seemed to believe in some "Earth is the centre of the universe" nonsense and clearly had a very limited view of the universe. You could say their view of the size of the sun, universe and so on was...tiny.

Just bringing it out here for anybody who may be slagging a religion as being limited in its scope when they themselves might very well believe in big old Yahweh. If they can say Yahweh is omnipotent and all powerful because its said he is then they should accept that Sun Wukong can do his crazy feats.

@angryhulks: I don't believe any version of Superman has a decent enough level of telepathy to actually change the outcome of this fight, and what exactly was it that PC Superman achieved could do with telepathy this "one time"?

@xxgin:

Please do not wank Wukong. I have heard the stories of Sun Wukong, including those in Chinese, and there is absolutely nothing to suggest Wukong is universal, so by no means does he come close to the Living Tribunal. At best he is Thor level (apparently Thor has resisted planetary destruction).

Regardless, an invalid answer for why God would not simply blink him out of existence. God is a magician, a sorcerer, a wizard, far moreso than a warrior.

"Boring" is a completely irrelevant matter for religious issues.

seriously, does anyone have the quote mentioning God's "sword"

Isaiah 27:1

In that day, Yahweh with his hard and great and strong sword will punish leviathan, the fleeing serpent, and leviathan the twisted serpent; and he will kill the dragon that is in the sea.

or if you prefer

In that day, the LORD will punish with his sword-- his fierce, great and powerful sword-- Leviathan the gliding serpent, Leviathan the coiling serpent; he will slay the monster of the sea.

I vote this thread, which has devolved from a debate to a squabble, to be turned into a Jell-O thread. This would make Bill Cosby very happy.

As for my 2 cents, I'd say Sun Wukong. His speed plus magic would overtake Supes.

I think the sword ia a metaphor for the wrath of God

@zombiemowlcher said:

I vote this thread, which has devolved from a debate to a squabble, to be turned into a Jell-O thread. This would make Bill Cosby very happy.

As for my 2 cents, I'd say Sun Wukong. His speed plus magic would overtake Supes.

the pudding is the best kind

There are many adaption to the story. A more recent one explains that the reason why Monkey King looped back was because Budda had merged with the universe and reshaped it with his will. Hence Buddha's hand became part of the universe for a brief moment. Monkey King had a nifty ability to see through all deception with his golden flamed eyes which is why he took the challenge smugly because he knew he couldn't be tricked. So the size of the universe for a very brief moment was determined by budda's will.

lol you are too far way behind lack of knowledge

-Wukong can hide yellow sun from Superman before Superman find out where is Wukong

- and Superman become weaker and weaker and still wont find where is Wukong and yellow sun

-after long time superman will become as weak as normal human ( maybe as weak as Justin Bieber) then Wukong will crush Superman like an ant lol

It's ironic because you don't know that PC Superman don't have to rely on the yellow Sun to power him.

Hidding in the sun would be a stupid thing for Wukong to do!!!

Why get all hide and go seeky when you can just pluck one of your hair and turn it into kryptonite.

Wukong. He's a freaking God.

Actually Sun Wukong is heavily influenced from the Hindu Deity, Hanuman since that 'almost eating the sun because he thought it was a fruit' is taken directly from Hindu Mythology.

Sun Wukong is based on a sacred deity in Hindu Mythology called 'Hanuman' or the 'Monkey King'. A powerful warrior who is not too different from Superman. And Indian Scientists were charting the stars and studying atoms when places like Europe were still in the Dark Ages so I believe that their understanding of the Universe was pretty sophisticated.

@darkazrael999: Hey, does this response string relate to me?

only thing that can harm to Sun Wukong is a powerful (unparalleled magic) like Buddha's magic or some other special magic must be involved. For example Sun Wukong was stuck under a mountain by Buddha because of Buddha's special magic scripture, after the scripture remove he easily busted the mountain into tiny pieces. another one is Head tightening band , he was harmed by that because of the special magic spells given by Buddha to Kwan Yin Goddess and then Kwan Yin Goddess gave it to his mortal master. another one is he was harmed by Red boy using samadhi fire, only because the red boy cast special powerful magic to cast that fire.Another one is he also stuck under multi mountains by Silver horn demon( it was just stuck for temporary , but it was not hurt him abit), because the silver horn demon cast a special magic to summon those mountains , so those mountains are not ordinary mountain and not from this planet earth.

So my points is Superman does not know abit about magic spell, so there is no way that he can do any harm to Wukong. every attack from Superman wont even scratch to Wukong.

and all version of superman rely on yellow sun and weakness to kryptonite.

PC superman wins due to no limits fallacy and fan-fiction myths on Sun Wukong's side on this thread lol.