The Grand Inquisitor vs Vindican

The Pureblood Sith Master goes head-to-head with the Pau'an Jedi-hunter. Who wins?

• They start at a 20m distance in the pictured Theed hangar (unpopulated) on the planet Naboo.
• They fight in character.

I'm gonna go with Vindican simply because he was a full-fledged Sith and because he trained Malgus.

Vindican.

Being labelled as one of the greatest inquisitors of the Sith Empire should place Vindican above The grand inquisitor.

The Grand Inquisitor could be the superior swordsman, but Vindican is certainly the better Force user and should thus win.

@wollfmyth209: Why is he the better Force user?

@darthduelist9: Casually deflecting RPGs, one-shotting Satele, being listed as one of the most notable Sith Inquisitors alongside Naga Sadow, being an actual Sith, etc.

@wollfmyth209: Is that really better than easily dominating Kanan, who has moved ship sized asteroid?

Inquisitor.

Return Malgus > Kao-Cen > Grand Inquisitor > Vindican.

@darthduelist9: Yes. Because that asteroid feat is way to overhyped and obviously inconsistent.

@wollfmyth209: Overhyped? He's moving 2 ship sized asteroids fast enough to intercept a mandalorian gauntlet fighter, that's just extremely impressive no matter how you put it. Admittedly he has help from Ezra but that was early S1 Ezra who had trouble with moving a cup so he did almost all the heavy lifting. I'm almost inclined to compare the feat with Kyp's freighter one, which is obviously more impressive but is regarded with way more "respect" than Kanan's.

Vindy in a good fight.

Vindican. Better in every way

@darthduelist9: And that's why it's inconsistent as hell. A random, failed padawan who's holistically meant to be an underdog manipulates a 50 meter long asteroid outta nowhere when beings with far more hype, power and better feats on the whole struggle to pull off similar feats.

It's just lolworthy to assume this is standard power for Kanan, especially given how he's in heavy concentration while doing it.

@wollfmyth209: He was actually considered very young for being made a Padawan so he should have a very decent amount of potential anyway and the asteroid was roughly 15 meters long (each).

You're going to argue against canon material? I mean lets just call every feat we don't like or find realistic "inconsistent", debating would become a hole lot easier.

Vindican would win. It could be a good fight with sabers, but it seems like Vindican would be the more powerful force user

@darthduelist9: He was actually considered very young for being made a Padawan so he should have a very decent amount of potential anyway and the asteroid was roughly 15 meters long (each).

I don't care. He's still the "underdog", so to speak, and most of his potential is unrealized as is. He's not the Chosen One, he's not Kyp Durron, he's nothing insanely special hence him manipulating a massive asteroid makes no sense.

And check your calculations, they are off. Each of the asteroids is roughly the same size as the Splendour, which is a 52 meter long ship.

You're going to argue against canon material? I mean lets just call every feat we don't like or find realistic "inconsistent", debating would become a hole lot easier.

Except it doesn't work that way. Characters have a consistent level of power and high/low showings that can be attributed to them, assuming that power fluctuates. Dooku losing to pirates? Low showing. Savage pushing back Anakin and Obi-Wan? High showing.

If we go by the "every feat is legit" nonsense, then Wolvervine can keep up with Thor. Or, since you're probably not into Marvel, Rivi-Anu's feat is legitimate so now every PT era Jedi worth a damn can throw around Republic Cruisers. That random Mandalorian who can give Kenobi a fight in TCW? He has Maul-level strength now. Hondo Onaka? Totally a better duelist than Plo Koon since he stalemated Anakin Skywalker.

Kanan has struggled to do less several times in the past. Heck, even Vader has struggled to do less in-canon. So yeah, pardon me for thinking the asteroid is inconsistent.

@wollfmyth209: Random, failed padawan? He was the apprentice of Depa Bilaba who I've definitely heard of before. Padawan Knox is the student of a random Jedi master (Master Halsey). And why failed? Because the Order collapsed before he could become a knight? I wouldn't call that a failing on Kanan's part

@chubbs: Just because you've heard of a master doesn't mean their pupil is automatically very talented. You've heard of Shaak Ti, right? Her first two padawans died to a Bounty Hunter. Are they special? No, they're random padawans, just trained by a noteworthy master.

And I know it's not Kanan's fault, but he's still a failed padawan in a sense that his training is incomplete. Yoda grants him knighthood, sure, but he doesn't have the mastery or the technique of a Jedi Knight.

Prolly Vindican.

He's really all hype, though.

He has some good Force feats. Not really anything by way of lightsaber combat, though.

@wollfmyth209:

I don't care. He's still the "underdog", so to speak, and most of his potential is unrealized as is. He's not the Chosen One, he's not Kyp Durron, he's nothing insanely special hence him manipulating a massive asteroid makes no sense.

Who says he isn't special? You? I mean sure you can say he has Padawan level knowledge but he still has the basis for being a Jedi which is exactly why after seasons and seasons of challenges he is granted the rank of Knight. Exploring the Force and improving your abilities can happen in more ways than one, in this case Kanan's path is just extremely different from a normal Jedi during the PT era.

And check your calculations, they are off. Each of the asteroids is roughly the same size as the Splendour, which is a 52 meter long ship.

Ohh amazing, didn't know that, thanks.

Except it doesn't work that way. Characters have a consistent level of power and high/low showings that can be attributed to them, assuming that power fluctuates. Dooku losing to pirates? Low showing. Savage pushing back Anakin and Obi-Wan? High showing.

If we go by the "every feat is legit" nonsense, then Wolvervine can keep up with Thor. Or, since you're probably not into Marvel, Rivi-Anu's feat is legitimate so now every PT era Jedi worth a damn can throw around Republic Cruisers. That random Mandalorian who can give Kenobi a fight in TCW? He has Maul-level strength now. Hondo Onaka? Totally a better duelist than Plo Koon since he stalemated Anakin Skywalker.

Kanan has struggled to do less several times in the past. Heck, even Vader has struggled to do less in-canon. So yeah, pardon me for thinking the asteroid is inconsistent.

Of course but that depends on the medium, The Clone Wars in general is known to be inconsistent because of it's heavy plot centered story writing where in one episode Hondo is stalemating Anakin because he's the primary antagonist at that point. On the other hand is the OCW known to show character's abilities in a way more overexagurated way contrary to TCW while at the same time there's nothing ruling out that Rivi-Anu accessed a state of oneness or whatever the plot may require since that's the main driving point behind that story. In this case the SWR magazine has never shown itself to be an inconsistent or overexagurated medium, Ezra still struggled with opening a small cave entrance (which was blocked by small rocks) and he was still directly overwhelmed by several stormtroopers, there's nothing to suggest that suddenly it's an inconsistent medium which we can't use anymore because it display s the Force in a different way than you want it to.

Well first of all I doubt Vader actually ever struggled with the same feat, remember that it's in space which makes it far easier to manipulate something than on a planet that actually has gravity. Secondly, this kind of feat obviously isn't going to be shown in the next episode of Rebels logically, it's a more subdued medium but that's something which is a normal or are you going to argue that Dooku's cruiser feat is a inconsistent showing because he has struggled with far less in TCW?

Or we can just look at the fact, that mixing Legends and Canon in this case of course you're gonna have inconsistencies. Which is why mixing the two isn't really a good idea, except in very small cases.

@wollfmyth209: I wasn't saying he was very talented, just that you could get a lot more random than being Depa Bilaba's padawan. And I would call his training incomplete, not a failure.

@darthduelist9: Who says he isn't special? You? I mean sure you can say he has Padawan level knowledge but he still has the basis for being a Jedi which is exactly why after seasons and seasons of challenges he is granted the rank of Knight. Exploring the Force and improving your abilities can happen in more ways than one, in this case Kanan's path is just extremely different from a normal Jedi during the PT era.

Which is all well and good, but still doesn't mean he has uber potential. There's obviously room for improvement, but that's irrelevant because this is Season 1 Kanan who's not even begun scratching his potential, like say Season 3 Kanan is. You wanna argue he has good potential? Go ahead. But when even Season 3 Kanan struggles to pull off lesser feats despite tapping much more into his potential, then Season 1 Kanan moving an asteroid is simply an inconsistent high showing.

Of course but that depends on the medium, The Clone Wars in general is known to be inconsistent because of it's heavy plot centered story writing where in one episode Hondo is stalemating Anakin because he's the primary antagonist at that point. On the other hand is the OCW known to show character's abilities in a way more overexagurated way contrary to TCW while at the same time there's nothing ruling out that Rivi-Anu accessed a state of oneness or whatever the plot may require since that's the main driving point behind that story. In this case the SWR magazine has never shown itself to be an inconsistent or overexagurated medium, Ezra still struggled with opening a small cave entrance (which was blocked by small rocks) and he was still directly overwhelmed by several stormtroopers, there's nothing to suggest that suddenly it's an inconsistent medium which we can't use anymore because it display s the Force in a different way than you want it to.

The SWR Magazine fits into the Rebels continuity as supplementary comics, which obviously follows that medium very closely. It's also written by the same people who made the TCW Magazines, which can also be inconsistent at times. The fact that Ezra can go from helping Kanan move 52 meter long asteroids to having trouble lifting small rocks shows just how inconsistent even the Magazine is.

The idea that Rivi-Anu accessed Oneness is conjecture and it's up to you to prove that she was.

Well first of all I doubt Vader actually ever struggled with the same feat, remember that it's in space which makes it far easier to manipulate something than on a planet that actually has gravity. Secondly, this kind of feat obviously isn't going to be shown in the next episode of Rebels logically, it's a more subdued medium but that's something which is a normal or are you going to argue that Dooku's cruiser feat is a inconsistent showing because he has struggled with far less in TCW?

No, because there's an actual difference in mediums between Final Showdown and TCW, and a notable one because there's a gap in power between Legends and canon. And Dooku didn't struggle with far less in TCW, regardless. Kanan did struggle with far less in Rebels and there's no "overexaggerated" medium in canon -- most, if not all of it, is subdued.

@wollfmyth209:

Which is all well and good, but still doesn't mean he has uber potential. There's obviously room for improvement, but that's irrelevant because this is Season 1 Kanan who's not even begun scratching his potential, like say Season 3 Kanan is. You wanna argue he has good potential? Go ahead. But when even Season 3 Kanan struggles to pull off lesser feats despite tapping much more into his potential, then Season 1 Kanan moving an asteroid is simply an inconsistent high showing.

It also doesn't exclude him from having a great potential and it depends on the medium but that's something I'll address later on in my comment.

The SWR Magazine fits into the Rebels continuity as supplementary comics, which obviously follows that medium very closely. It's also written by the same people who made the TCW Magazines, which can also be inconsistent at times. The fact that Ezra can go from helping Kanan move 52 meter long asteroids to having trouble lifting small rocks shows just how inconsistent even the Magazine is.

So does Son of Dathomir where Maul is blasting away dozens of droids in the midst of combat yet in the TV show Dooku can't overwhelm two dozen pirates, the way the Force is shown depends on medium to medium. I mean, the Clone Wars novels like Shatterpoint and Labyrinth of Evil acknowledge the OCW yet we see that Windu's upper limit is far lower in Shatterpoint than in the OCW so no, you're attempt to dismiss the feat because it doesn't align with your idea of how powerful Kanan could be isn't going to work. No it doesn't, we have no idea how much of an influence Ezra had in moving the asteroids so one does not exclude the other.

The idea that Rivi-Anu accessed Oneness is conjecture and it's up to you to prove that she was.

I never said it was explicitly Oneness but more a plot device the entire story works towards, she's sacrificing herself and achieves an extreme high level of power at that specific moment because of her selfless act, yeah it isn't spelled out but it's a recurring theme in fiction in general.

No, because there's an actual difference in mediums between Final Showdown and TCW, and a notable one because there's a gap in power between Legends and canon. And Dooku didn't struggle with far less in TCW, regardless. Kanan did struggle with far less in Rebels and there's no "overexaggerated" medium in canon -- most, if not all of it, is subdued.

So? Rebels and SWR magazine are different mediums created by different people that are going to depict things differently, it's not that difficult.

@darthduelist9: So does Son of Dathomir where Maul is blasting away dozens of droids in the midst of combat yet in the TV show Dooku can't overwhelm two dozen pirates, the way the Force is shown depends on medium to medium. I mean, the Clone Wars novels like Shatterpoint and Labyrinth of Evil acknowledge the OCW yet we see that Windu's upper limit is far lower in Shatterpoint than in the OCW so no, you're attempt to dismiss the feat because it doesn't align with your idea of how powerful Kanan could be isn't going to work.

Don't be dense. Every source in the EU acknowledges that other sources exist, my point is they are supplementary to the actual show. They are based around it, whereas Shatterpoint and Labyrinth of Evil are independent works that simply tie into the overall continuity. The fact that they are based around it and supervised by Filoni means these comics have to be at least close as a medium to the original show; the original show has a more powerful Kanan struggling to do far less than move a 52 meter long asteroid, thus it's an inconsistent feat.

Please stop with these arguments obviously tailor-made just for wanking Ezra.

No it doesn't, we have no idea how much of an influence Ezra had in moving the asteroids so one does not exclude the other.

It's implied he's accelerating one and Kanan is accelerating the other; regardless, if Ezra is incapable of even lifting small rocks properly at the time, then he isn't adding very much to the feat at all, so why does Kanan even need his help? Obviously, Ezra putting in a respectable portion of the effort as the comic itself implies, which doesn't make sense when he can't even lift small rocks and a cup properly after this event:

Gallery

If these examples aren't inconsistent -- hint: they are -- then Kanan wouldn't even need Ezra to move the two asteroids since he's doing more than 99% of the work. That's not what the comic shows us, however. You can try to dance around this all you want; the showing is just flat out inconsistent even within the SWR medium, that you can't prove is more exaggerated than Rebels.

I never said it was explicitly Oneness but more a plot device the entire story works towards, she's sacrificing herself and achieves an extreme high level of power at that specific moment because of her selfless act, yeah it isn't spelled out but it's a recurring theme in fiction in general.

The story didn't really need her to bench press a Republic Cruiser, so it isn't PIS or a plot device. It's a high showing. And it's not like it's the only high showing in Star Wars, or are now mook Dark Jedi capable of devastating cities and angry force-sensitive kids capable of annihilating entire city blocks in a fit of rage? It's called an inconsistency, and an obvious one at that.

So? Rebels and SWR magazine are different mediums created by different people that are going to depict things differently, it's not that difficult.

The same people who work on the SWR magazine also worked on the TCW magazines, that are quite inconsistent and subdued themselves. Regardless, you've just admitted that Kanan can only throw the asteroid in an exaggerated medium, so my point stands.

@wollfmyth209 said:

@darthduelist9: So does Son of Dathomir where Maul is blasting away dozens of droids in the midst of combat yet in the TV show Dooku can't overwhelm two dozen pirates, the way the Force is shown depends on medium to medium. I mean, the Clone Wars novels like Shatterpoint and Labyrinth of Evil acknowledge the OCW yet we see that Windu's upper limit is far lower in Shatterpoint than in the OCW so no, you're attempt to dismiss the feat because it doesn't align with your idea of how powerful Kanan could be isn't going to work.

Don't be dense. Every source in the EU acknowledges that other sources exist, my point is they are supplementary to the actual show. They are based around it, whereas Shatterpoint and Labyrinth of Evil are independent works that simply tie into the overall continuity. The fact that they are based around it and supervised by Filoni means these comics have to be at least close as a medium to the original show; the original show has a more powerful Kanan struggling to do far less than move a 52 meter long asteroid, thus it's an inconsistent feat.

Please stop with these arguments obviously tailor-made just for wanking Ezra.

No it doesn't, we have no idea how much of an influence Ezra had in moving the asteroids so one does not exclude the other.

It's implied he's accelerating one and Kanan is accelerating the other; regardless, if Ezra is incapable of even lifting small rocks properly at the time, then he isn't adding very much to the feat at all, so why does Kanan even need his help? Obviously, Ezra putting in a respectable portion of the effort as the comic itself implies, which doesn't make sense when he can't even lift small rocks and a cup properly after this event:

Gallery

If these examples aren't inconsistent -- hint: they are -- then Kanan wouldn't even need Ezra to move the two asteroids since he's doing more than 99% of the work. That's not what the comic shows us, however. You can try to dance around this all you want; the showing is just flat out inconsistent even within the SWR medium, that you can't prove is more exaggerated than Rebels.

I never said it was explicitly Oneness but more a plot device the entire story works towards, she's sacrificing herself and achieves an extreme high level of power at that specific moment because of her selfless act, yeah it isn't spelled out but it's a recurring theme in fiction in general.

The story didn't really need her to bench press a Republic Cruiser, so it isn't PIS or a plot device. It's a high showing. And it's not like it's the only high showing in Star Wars, or are now mook Dark Jedi capable of devastating cities and angry force-sensitive kids capable of annihilating entire city blocks in a fit of rage? It's called an inconsistency, and an obvious one at that.

So? Rebels and SWR magazine are different mediums created by different people that are going to depict things differently, it's not that difficult.

The same people who work on the SWR magazine also worked on the TCW magazines, that are quite inconsistent and subdued themselves. Regardless, you've just admitted that Kanan can only throw the asteroid in an exaggerated medium, so my point stands.

Yeah just like Son of Dathomir is not only supplementary but also based on actual episodes yet we see Maul do stuff Dooku would never do on screen (given he could at best overpower 15 pirates or so). Secondly when has Kanan struggled with less? You're severely underestimating the fact that there isn't any gravity in space.

This is just pure speculation Wollf, shameful man. It is never implied that Kanan needed Ezra to perform the feat, he only started learning about the Force just recently so that he could use this as a training exercise isn't an impossible option.

Anyway this is getting ridiculous, your entire argument is based around how you think this feat is inconsistent because in your opinion the SWR magazine should be under the same limitations as the show while it's created by different people, some sources are just going to show things differently, accept it and move on.

Oh btw I was never going to use this feat to hype up Ezra lol, this can only apply to Kanan and your problem seems to be to actually acknowledge he's powerful while in your mind he shouldn't be, get over it.

@darthduelist9: Yeah just like Son of Dathomir is not only supplementary but also based on actual episodes yet we see Maul do stuff Dooku would never do on screen (given he could at best overpower 15 pirates or so). Secondly when has Kanan struggled with less? You're severely underestimating the fact that there isn't any gravity in space.

The pirate thing is, as we've already discussed, a low showing. Besides, Maul's feats of stomping MagnaGuards, pushing Grievous and pushing a lot of droids back is something Dooku has replicated in TCW so I see no reason to assume SoD is overexaggerated by comparison.

This is just pure speculation Wollf, shameful man. It is never implied that Kanan needed Ezra to perform the feat, he only started learning about the Force just recently so that he could use this as a training exercise isn't an impossible option.

Right, so he calls Ezra and makes him concentrate deeply for no reason. Kanan wasn't even certain that lifting a cup was an easy exercise for Ezra, but he'd make him try and push an asteroid? LMAO, how ridiculous. Besides, Kanan wanted Hera to win at the time, not to train Ezra. I doubt he'd risk Ezra screwing something up when he damn well knows that at the time Ezra can't lift a cup properly.

It's obviously just a joint feat between the two of them.

Anyway this is getting ridiculous, your entire argument is based around how you think this feat is inconsistent because in your opinion the SWR magazine should be under the same limitations as the show while it's created by different people, some sources are just going to show things differently, accept it and move on.

No; my argument is based on the fact that, even within that medium, the feat is inconsistent. I like how you constantly ignore the fact that the SWR Magazine medium is both supervised by Filoni(the person most well known for making Force users fall on their ass constantly) and is made by the same people who made the TCW Magazines, which I also noted are incredibly subdued and inconsistent themselves.

Your counter to that is baselessly saying the SWR Magazine is a more exaggerated medium than the show, despite everything else pointing to the contrary, all so you can wank a feat that should just be deemed as a high showing/outliar.

Oh btw I was never going to use this feat to hype up Ezra lol, this can only apply to Kanan and your problem seems to be to actually acknowledge he's powerful while in your mind he shouldn't be, get over it.

I do think Kanan is relatively powerful, I just think wanking a padawan with incomplete training as capable of moving a 52 meter long asteroid is absolutely ludicrous. And don't pretend like you didn't bring this feat up to scale Season 3 Ezra; I know you too well. ;)

@wollfmyth209: I'm not going to waste more time on this, different mediums, different showings of power. Unless of course you can go on and start talking down the fact that Obi-Wan was easily manipulating a ship in Wild Space (a supplementary source to TCW) despite that he has struggled with less in the show itself or how Maul & Savage was blasting away 100 troopers despite the fact that they couldn't do that to a dozen pirates (in Sith Hunters -> supplementary source) or Anakin blasting a tank in TCW Movie novel despite that he has struggled with less around this time frame or ... the list can go on and on. You can't just start calling things low and high because they don't align with your thought of how powerful someone should be, in this case Kanan's feat should definitely be valid as you yourself said it was approved by Dave Filoni himself and the magazine itself has never shown itself to be inconsistent in general.

He's 29 years old by the start of Rebels so his powers should have time to develop even if it was passively, in the end he did have the basis for it just not the experience/rest of the padawan training and yeah in the beginning but I very fast moved past that line of thought.

@darthduelist9: And this point, you're running like a broken record, baselessly assuming the SWR Magazine is a drastically different medium from the show despite it obviously being further from the truth.

You're correct on one thing: better to not waste time explaining the term outliar to someone who doesn't wanna believe it.

Vindican most likely.

@wollfmyth209: You willing enough to hype Kenobi with is ship feat from Wild Space but Kanan his one is the outliar and inconsistent, as long as you believe it yourself I guess.

@darthduelist9: Yes, because one of the most talented/powerful Jedi Masters in history, who was among the best fighters of the Order even as a padawan, manipulating a ship actually makes sense. A padawan with incomplete training and vague potential manipulating something bigger than a ship makes no sense, though.

@wollfmyth209: Not when taking TCW into account, there Obi-Wan has struggled with far less than manipulating a ship so in this case the showing is inconsistent according to you because it was featured in a supplementary source to TCW.

@darthduelist9: With what did Kenobi struggle in TCW, exactly? Regardless, the Wild Space novel isn't a supplementary source like say the magazine or episode/movie novelisations.

And it's not outside EU Obi-Wan's capabilities, in any case.

In season 3 he and Piell struggle to keep two commando droids bend backwards (their feet are magnetized) and well yes, it tells the story between (and during) several episodes of TCW just like the magazine.

Of course, even not in canon but if you look at only at TCW than it becomes a different story.

@darthduelist9: In season 3 he and Piell struggle to keep two commando droids bend backwards (their feet are magnetized)

Which you can look at as a low showing and more than rectified by the fact that Obi-Wan is later crushing commando droids like nothing.

and well yes, it tells the story between (and during) several episodes of TCW just like the magazine.

Right, it adds more to the continuity, but it's not a tie-in source like a Magazine or episode/film novelisation is.

Of course, even not in canon but if you look at only at TCW than it becomes a different story.

Well, I usually look at Composite unless there's a really drastic difference.

Yes, so why wouldn't that happen with Kanan? Perhaps his struggle in the first seasons (where exactly was he struggling with?) could've as easily been a low showing.

It is since it not only explains events between episodes but also during them, it completes the entire story and is actually pretty important for the overall arc (Forgotten Droid IIRC -> when R2 goes missing). If the SWR Magazine with stories that happen between episodes is considered a tie-in source then a novel which not only does this but also supplements the actual episodes of TCW itself should most certainly be one to.

That isn't really usable in Kanan's case since he's a canon only character.

Could go either way. They are pretty much on the same level.

The actual Sith who trained Malgus or the Inquisitor that got defeated by a Padawan?

Vindican wins.