The Galactic Empire vs The Borg Collective vs The Dalek Empire vs The Forerunners

All at the peak of their power

No time travelling

No superweapons

Dalek's solo them all.

The trashcans.

I'd say Forerunners.

The trash cans win

Borg assimilate all the others

@destinyman75: How would they assimilate the Daleks?

@cr500: Good point not sure how really but I'm sure if they can't the force fields of the Borg will protect them while the Daleks self destruct.

Yeah, it's highly unlikely.

As for who wins, honestly do any of the other empires have anything along the lines of the Forerunner's ability to break their foes apart at a molecular level?

@conner_wolf: I can't tell if that's a rhetorical question or not. If it isn't, the only one who's come close to that is the Daleks when they made the reality bomb.

@conner_wolf: that's true can that work through force fields?

@destinyman75: Let's ask some Halo Fans

Peak Daleks absolutely stomp.

I know I was on Halo callouts but Forerunners are no match at all for peak Daleks

A dalek gunstick at full power does this. They can actually cause large, almost house sized explosions at full power and disintegrate people. The only thing is that Daleks will rarely do that in actual combat, although the blasts are most certainly fatal

@decaf_wizard: It completely atomizes the target? And how do the Daleks compete with the Forerunners and their far more willing capabilities to reverse engineer, create new weapons, etc... not to mention their ability to transform their enemies into, lo and behold, more things for the Daleks to fight.

The Daleks go back in time and kill the Forerunners before they ever become a problem. Or they could use a time destructor and age all the non-promethean forerunners by millions of years and turn them into dust.

@decaf_wizard: No time travel/attacks, no superweapons, otherwise the Forerunners would just activate the Halo Rings and win instantly before any of the others could prepare any attacks.

No one deserves to be in this thread with the Daleks, especially if this is Time War.

Borg and GE don't deserve to be in a thread with Forerunners.

GE eats the Borg.

It says no time traveling. So what stops the Daleks from time locking all the others into an alternate universe? That doesn't count as time travel, nor is it a superweapon

@dagit: Why does the GE eat the Borg? The Borg have transporters, energy shielding, and so forth.

@decaf_wizard: I don't think that's in the spirit of the rules.

@conner_wolf: ST stop working at the smallest interference such as energy shields which GE has in spades. Even backwater worlds can have planetary shields and teleporting onto a GE ship is a bad idea given GE is vastly superior at ground force warfare.

GE FTL is vastly superior. GE has far more ships (25,000 ISDs) and peak power means GE holds the ship firepower advantage by a very, very large margin.

@dagit: In ground warfare the Borg all have individual shields which adapt to any and all attacks aside from melee, and getting into melee with a borg that's far physically superior to you is a stupid stupid idea. Unless we're going with Star Wars uses plasma, not energy, then the Borg would become immune to their weapons rather quickly, unless you can prove otherwise.

@conner_wolf: Because plasma naturally change its state and so isn't something that they can magically adapt to as it would constantly change and given blasters can be dial-yielded, they can constantly change the power, and state, of their weapon whenever the Borg do manage to adapt, and it isn't like GE can't switch back to slugthrowers since those already exist and they have the industrial might to switch over in short order. Also, I don't have to prove a negative. You have to prove your claim that Borg shield can stop blasters, not that Borg shields can't stop blasters. Not how debating works.

And, again, they aren't teleporting through their shields, and ISDs utterly crush in space.

It says no time travel. Not no time manipulation. Peak Daleks rivalled the time lords in manipulation of time and space.

@decaf_wizard: I didn't think about time manipulation when I made this thread. I guess they could but with a limit. Say only a few ships at most.

@dagit: Well since you made it clear we're going with plasma regardless, that doesn't matter a whole lot, but you're right, I didn't realize the poor way I worded that.

And the Borg teleport through the shields of Star Trek ships all the time.

@conner_wolf: SW blasters can be either or, but IIRC, GE blasters are plasma (believe they use a laser to super heat the gas making plasma which is fired out) ISDs have both laser and plasma weaponry (although turbolasers are plasma because they love messing with people) and I believe lasers are used more for point defense, oh my phone right now or I'd look it up to confirm= Which, again, isn't that important since rearming their soldiers isn't something they can't do as they have the infrastructure and organization to do so and Borg lack an ftl fast enough to force any issues.

I don't recall that happening, usually they bring the shields down or force them to lower it via talking. Do you have an example of this per chance?

Daleks>Forerunners>Galactic Empire>Borg

@dagit: I've not heard much of any of this when it comes to point-defense lasers, but those won't be particularly effective against Borg ships. The plasma on the other hand should actually be highly effective, although a Borg cube is still a force to be reckoned with. Though they should still be able to adapt, as shields in Star Trek can still deflect physical debris.

I do also agree that the Galactic Empire could easily rearm their Stormtroopers, their logistics are far superior to most other empires in fiction-it's one of the reasons I believe they could compete with the Imperium of Man.

And when it comes to actual combat, I've actually been informed Star Wars ships are incredibly slow, any statements on their combat speed? I recall from the episode Peak Performance an older starship can actually run circles around a ship that has it's back turned.

I really need to rewatch Next Gen if my memory is this bad, you're right, the Borg force someone's shield's down, but is there a reason the Borg can't just drain the energy of the Star Destroyers the same way?

This.

@conner_wolf: Point-defense lasers won't be. Was more to show they have the capacity to use them then anything. Borg have never been shown to adapt to physical trauma, shields being able to just block physical objects wouldn't really equate to someone becoming out right immune to it. One of those plot induced things that they can't do because reasons (same reason no one in Star Wars seems to want to make and heavily use hyperspace missiles... some get made, like they did in TOR, never get used cause reasons.)

Assuming someone picked calcs for both that left them in roughly the same ballpark? Agreed. For me, its logistics/industry, communications and FTL being the strongest advantages GE has over the IoM. IoM has amazing logistics and industrial might when one considers how hard it would be to keep tens of thousands of battle fields, millions upon millions of soldiers and ship equipped... But they are far from perfect and their industrial might is controlled by a separate faction that believes you need to pray before you push the on button which doesn't help neither does Forge Worlds often being fairly independent.

Speed is lessened by the use of Tactical Hyperspace Jumps (Thrawn was very fond of using them) and the fact that ST also engage in 'knife fighting' range for starship warfare (To create drama and tension for the viewer.)

Capacity. If we are using 'peak' GE (so I assuming using their higher end feats), their firepower is on another magnitude compared to ST's, and so, their shields which stand up to that firepower, are also incredibly durable to where it would be extremely difficult to do so before the ISDs killed the Cube. Also... doesn't make much sense to teleport onto a Star War's ship once the shields go down since their hulls are made of paper and once the shields go down they are rather boned.

Star Wars ships have incredibly impressive hull strength. Especially Star Destroyers

@decaf_wizard: Not particularly. The best claim to this I can recall is their hulls being 'mostly' intake after crashing onto a planet's surface. Which, is impressive, but considering how quickly and heavily they get damaged by even fighters after their shields go down? Doesn't take home an award.

Fighters built with weaponry specifically designed to damage them and only targeting specific areas. That's like saying a US aircraft carrier has crap hull strength because a fighter jet damaged it with a missile to the bridge.

@paragonnate: That doesn't stand up when yields given by those weaponry shouldn't do more then scratch the paint. Unless we are supposed to use science in a science fiction when it suits us and never again afterwards?

@dagit: Well I would say that the Galactic Empire has the better logistics purely because they have far less bureaucracy and they are focused only on victory, not about pleasing their god.

The thing is in Peak Performance, even in knife fight range we see the ability to outmaneuver other starships, and Thrawn was a very exception tactician, and Picard used a similar maneuver, now actually called the Picard Maneuver, there is in fact no known defense against it.

The sense of teleporting on-board would be to assimilate them and take hold of their technology.

Only it does, the fighters were targeting specific areas that they knew to be weaker. Not sure what you mean with the science bit.

You think the GE doesn't have crippling beuracracy? The whole thing practically disintegrated without the Emperor. They can't function without a head and the squabbling between moffs and governors and admirals and basically every other high ranked individual is quite well known

@decaf_wizard: That's not bureaucracy, that's just not having a proper system of succession because the Emperor believed himself to be immortal and unkillable.

Even still, if something happens to him (which could very well happen) they disintegrate instantly. However the amount of in fighting on a lower level is still quite large.

@decaf_wizard: True, but how would the Borg even attempt to bring him down?

@paragonnate: Not how it works. The only time you can really use that is when the A-Wing crashed into the bridge of the SSD (Although that was probably equal parts luck as skill). There are numerous examples of tanks or simple fighters damaging corvettes and above with their simple cannons, not specialized proton torpedoes once their shields go down to the point where it is laughable easy. I cannot think of a single instance where Star Wars ships exchanged fire after the shields went down for a protracted period of time that lasted more then a few seconds, can you? Cause I can reference numerous ones, just on youtube thanks to TCW and Rebels being so easily accessible, of them not being able to.

Either Star Wars fighters have super ammo that defies reason, or, more likely, Star Wars vessels are designed with shield strength in mind and rely on those more then heavy armor.

@decaf_wizard: Not that they don't, just that the difference between them is hilarious. At worst, you have people stiffing each other in hopes they get in trouble and they get their job.

In 40k, not only do you have that, the people that build your weaponry and ships? Are a religious faction who are only working with you because of an ancient treaty and barely get along with you, refuse to allow you to 'modify' anything else have a stroke. The various Forge Worlds who design them? Often only geared towards designing a single object and due to tradition mixed with said religious crazies, they aren't going to be heavily modifying and changing them on the fly, and it is not uncommon for gear to be sent to the wrong regiment giving them ammo they can't use when they really, really need it. Most of the troop transports and other ships you use? Belong to civilians because there are so many warzones they can barely keep up and still has all the glorious red tape one expects you to fill out to get anything done.

One is fairly standard bureaucracy. The other is a cluster.

Oh im not even trying to compare SW to the AdMech. Their awful, what with all their tech heresy and rabid hoarding tendencies

Just say one of the races ends up blockading the planet he is currently on and he is either captured (unlikely to be possible from anybody but the Daleks) or killed. Say the Executor or Death Star is blown up with him on it. If that happens the empire would fall apart

@decaf_wizard: Well the Death Star isn't in play here so it'd be the Executioner, but the Executioner is rarely ever utilized in combat, they'd need to find it, and the Empire has quite the habit of hiding their most important stuff within massive fields of black holes.

@decaf_wizard: Yeah, their stuff is just a mess, and most sci-fis aren't much better, refusing to adapt and change, but the GE has very impressive industrial capability and are fairly organized (assuming Palp is in charge), so doing a mass rearmament is very plausible and in decent time. (compared to say, imagine, if the IoM tried to do a mass change from lasguns to autoguns.. would be a nightmare.)

They probably wouldn't do that. Autoguns are too limited in production and generally inferior. They would probably just mass produce Godwyn De'az, Locke and Perinetus pattern Boltguns.

I would imagine the Empire would mass produce disruptors against the Borg

@decaf_wizard: Autoguns are massed produce. There is a reason hive gangers often have autoguns and stubguns over lasguns and other such weaponry and bolters are far too expensive to mass produce for guardsmen. They are already at a point where the lasgun they are holding is worth more to the IoM then the guardsmen holding it, they don't really need, or want, to make that worse.

Autoguns are an okay replacement. Enough power to threaten and kill their standard foes, and not like they really stand much of a chance against Chaos Marines or Eldar Aspect Warrior with a Lasgun or a Autogun. Some IG regiments even prefer to use Autoguns since Orks are easier to fight (Orks respect the sound more and so are more likely to break). Cheap, easily created replacement for cheap, easily replaced soldiers.

Dalek ftw