@Spiderbuck Hahaha lol thanks, I didn't know Flash was that overhyped I always knew Batman is the most mega hyped hero out there, it's not to say I don't like him because I do like the character but he's still just a human with human limits, I've also seen Wolverine a bit overhyped as well I mean Wolverine >>> Batman there is no debating that but people class him in the same group as Hulk and Superman and that's just overkill with Wolvie. Anyways, I didn't know Flash fanboys were really that bad are they as bad as bat-fans on this site?
@Spiderbuck Hahaha lol thanks, I didn't know Flash was that overhyped I always knew Batman is the most mega hyped hero out there, it's not to say I don't like him because I do like the character but he's still just a human with human limits, I've also seen Wolverine a bit overhyped as well I mean Wolverine >>> Batman there is no debating that but people class him in the same group as Hulk and Superman and that's just overkill with Wolvie. Anyways, I didn't know Flash fanboys were really that bad are they as bad as bat-fans on this site?
I don't even think Esquire and Lady Liberty are particularly Flash fans.
@ImBoredLetsDebate said:
I still don't understand why this is being debated. Did the OP edit Flash to make him bloodlusted or is he still in character? If it is the latter, Flash gets roflstomped. Everyone arguing for the Flash are mentioning feats for when he is bloodlusted; those feats don't matter here. In character, he probably wouldn't even beat one of them.
What is Wally's best feats? I'd say his Human Race, Black Racer fights, Amazo fight, Mongul fight, and Anti Monitor fight would be, and the only ones you could even slightly argue that he was bloodlusted in were Black Racer (pissed that he killed Linda) and Anti Monitor (saw Anti Monitor zap DC Earth to death and unleashed hell on him before having to abandon an unwinnable fight).
@Dreduced Well, he said "home of the unbeatable Skyfather level Flash" so I assumed he was implying that there are Flash fanboys on here that think he's unbeatable I wasn't pointing out anyone in particular.
@Dreduced Well, he said "home of the unbeatable Skyfather level Flash" so I assumed he was implying that there are Flash fanboys on here that think he's unbeatable I wasn't pointing out anyone in particular.
Nah, no one has ever said Flash is unbeatable. A lot of people are bitter that they see people trying to make reasonable arguments against other strong heroes they think should be more powerful than him, because they think his only ability is that he goes fast. Flash has a pretty strong list of feats that lets him compete with higher level folks than the rest of the Justice League or most DC Earth heroes, much to the chagrin of others.
I'm a pretty big Wally fan and I've admitted to him losing several fights on this forum, but when I try to make an argument that he wins, people get very spiteful and very bitter.
I brought up Lady Liberty and Esquire because they were the ones trying to make the argument and have been doing a good job.
If you want to see a guy hitting way above his weight class, go look at the old Zoom threads. Zoom beat basically everyone that wasn't an abstract, lol.
@Dredeuced Alright man, I wasn't trying to be spiteful like I said in my personal experience Flash fans are generally reasonable and will present valid reasons as to why he'd win but they'll also admit that he'd lose sometimes, but like I said I'm new to this site and they said that people think Flash is skyfather-level and I don't think he's quite that powerful, yeah they're exaggerating but I think there might a bit of truth to that statement. Flash could beat an average Marvel hero like Iron Man, Cap, Wolverine, Spidey would all get stomped by him. But I think against people like Thor and Sentry he'd have less luck.
@Dredeuced Alright man, I wasn't trying to be spiteful like I said in my personal experience Flash fans are generally reasonable and will present valid reasons as to why he'd win but they'll also admit that he'd lose sometimes, but like I said I'm new to this site and they said that people think Flash is skyfather-level and I don't think he's quite that powerful, yeah they're exaggerating but I think there might a bit of truth to that statement. Flash could beat an average Marvel hero like Iron Man, Cap, Wolverine, Spidey would all get stomped by him. But I think against people like Thor and Sentry he'd have less luck.
One on one, Wally would absolutely stomp Thor. Thor's got pitiful reaction time. Sentry possibly less so, but he's never shown anything close to Flash level speed and reactions. Not to mention neither of them have any way to counter being speed stolen.
They'd obviously pose more of a challenge than the others you listed, but that's primarily because of durability.
Hey guys I added a bunch of stuff to the CV Gladiator respect thread. Check it out. I'll be adding more throughout the week. It's extremely time consuming...
@Spiderbuck Hahaha lol thanks, I didn't know Flash was that overhyped I always knew Batman is the most mega hyped hero out there, it's not to say I don't like him because I do like the character but he's still just a human with human limits, I've also seen Wolverine a bit overhyped as well I mean Wolverine >>> Batman there is no debating that but people class him in the same group as Hulk and Superman and that's just overkill with Wolvie. Anyways, I didn't know Flash fanboys were really that bad are they as bad as bat-fans on this site?
I don't even think Esquire and Lady Liberty are particularly Flash fans.
Hey guys I added a bunch of stuff to the CV Gladiator respect thread. Check it out. I'll be adding more throughout the week. It's extremely time consuming...
Hey guys I added a bunch of stuff to the CV Gladiator respect thread. Check it out. I'll be adding more throughout the week. It's extremely time consuming...
I don't even think Esquire and Lady Liberty are particularly Flash fans.
LOL YEAH RIGHT
I had hoped we could be amiable, but it irks me when people impugn on my ability to be unbiased. I know you haven't read all of my posts in this thread, or even all of the ones that were responses to you. I don't expect you to have understood everything in them, either, judging by your responses to most of them. But out of the ones you did read and understand, or even the ones you didn't, show me where I said Flash wins here. Please. I'll give you a hint to save time: You can't. I have never, not once, given my input on who wins this fight. I've spent most of the last 13 pages patiently responding to every point you try to make, explaining, over and over, why your claims about Flash are wrong. I've even addressed your off-topic references like Red Hulk. I've been reasonable and logical and detailed, and you've responded by calling things PIS, saying I'm being unfair, and outright stating that you didn't even read my post. And now, by implication, you're calling my status as an unbaised debater into question. Bad form, jack. Bad form.
Hey guys I added a bunch of stuff to the CV Gladiator respect thread. Check it out. I'll be adding more throughout the week. It's extremely time consuming...
Hey guys I added a bunch of stuff to the CV Gladiator respect thread. Check it out. I'll be adding more throughout the week. It's extremely time consuming...
I don't even think Esquire and Lady Liberty are particularly Flash fans.
LOL YEAH RIGHT
I had hoped we could be amiable, but it irks me when people impugn on my ability to be unbiased. I know you haven't read all of my posts in this thread, or even all of the ones that were responses to you. I don't expect you to have understood everything in them, either, judging by your responses to most of them. But out of the ones you did read and understand, or even the ones you didn't, show me where I said Flash wins here. Please. I'll give you a hint to save time: You can't. I have never, not once, given my input on who wins this fight. I've spent most of the last 13 pages patiently responding to every point you try to make, explaining, over and over, why your claims about Flash are wrong. I've even addressed your off-topic references like Red Hulk. I've been reasonable and logical and detailed, and you've responded by calling things PIS, saying I'm being unfair, and outright stating that you didn't even read my post. And now, by implication, you're calling my status as an unbaised debater into question. Bad form, jack. Bad form.
whats bad form is to debate someone without taking a side on the issue,you wasted my time and everybody who debated with you.there is a phrase for what you did sir
whats bad form is to debate someone without taking a side on the issue,
The thing is, I didn't debate you. I never made an argument for either team winning. I educated and I refuted false and invalid arguments, but I never put forward a debate as to which side would win. I dispensed an awful lot of knowledge, though, and if you'd actually read my posts you'd have a much better understanding of Flash and quite a few other elements in comics.
you wasted my time and everybody who debated with you.
Again, I didn't debate anybody. And your time was only wasted because you didn't understand what I was saying, and so repeatedly went back to arguments I'd already disproved. I spent a lot of time educating you on why your statements weren't accurate, and you ignored or misinterpreted most of them. If anyone's time was wasted in this thread, it was mine.
there is a phrase for what you did sir "straddling the fence"
That phrase means "to support both sides of an issue." And if you'd actually read my posts, I never supported either side of this match. There was invalid and downright ugly debating going on, so I stepped in and corrected a lot of it. I was on neither side of the fence, rather than both. If you didn't read enough of my responses to you to learn, that's not my fault.
whats bad form is to debate someone without taking a side on the issue,
The thing is, I didn't debate you. I never made an argument for either team winning. I educated and I refuted false and invalid arguments, but I never put forward a debate as to which side would win. I dispensed an awful lot of knowledge, though, and if you'd actually read my posts you'd have a much better understanding of Flash and quite a few other elements in comics.
you wasted my time and everybody who debated with you.
Again, I didn't debate anybody. And your time was only wasted because you didn't understand what I was saying, and so repeatedly went back to arguments I'd already disproved. I spent a lot of time educating you on why your statements weren't accurate, and you ignored or misinterpreted most of them. If anyone's time was wasted in this thread, it was mine.
there is a phrase for what you did sir "straddling the fence"
That phrase means "to support both sides of an issue." And if you'd actually read my posts, I never supported either side of this match. There was invalid and downright ugly debating going on, so I stepped in and corrected a lot of it. I was on neither side of the fence, rather than both. If you didn't read enough of my responses to you to learn, that's not my fault.
no more time wasted on this until you pick,all this back and forth you doing (remind me of somebody)
@jackofspades: There is no equivalent to Wally in Marvel. There is nothing to base it off of. Sentry moves at nanosecond speeds. Wally moves at picosecond speeds.... literally millions of times faster than him. With his speed his durability is amped accordingly. So he is able to hit at those speeds and not take damage. Then throw in an IMP, and it's game over, before anyone can comprehend or create a thought...... and that's not including his speed steal, which will essentially make it so they're not even moving.
@jackofspades: There is no equivalent to Wally in Marvel. There is nothing to base it off of. Sentry moves at nanosecond speeds. Wally moves at picosecond speeds.... literally millions of times faster than him. With his speed his durability is amped accordingly. So he is able to hit at those speeds and not take damage. Then throw in an IMP, and it's game over, before anyone can comprehend or create a thought...... and that's not including his speed steal, which will essentially make it so they're not even moving.
and before you say something Wally and Barry have approximately the same durability
Forgive me I'm not a flash expert but beside blinding speed is he strength higher than a humans? Because I don't care how many times an ant slaps me it ain't gonna do anything and these boys are some tough cookies
@jackofspades: Not Wally.... nobody has reached his level. Besides, even Barry was just goofing around because he thought there was no way Superman could hit him.
@jackofspades: Not Wally.... nobody has reached his level. Besides, even Barry was just goofing around because he thought there was no way Superman could hit him.
oh iam not talking about his speed iam talking about his durability
Barry has never eclipsed any of Wally's feats. Wally's pushed himself to become inhuman. Anyways the team wins because Wally jokes around so much. He would dodge them and try talking them to death. He might KO one before he's tagged. Also his powers don't really allow him to run into walls. He has the reaction time not to. Once he wash shot in the back if the neck with a gun (with a silencer?) and as soon as he felt the bullet touch his neck, he reacted quick enough to move like the bullet was frozen. He can "catch lightning" as his suit protects him from friction (although sometimes he's shown melted) and he is seldom bloodlusted. A morals off Wally is bad for business. That would take care of 98% of DC villains. Team wins, eventually, due to stipulations.
@jackofspades: His durability is based on his speed. So the faster he is moving the more durable he is. He's not moving very fast there. Put him in the Picosecond range and that's not happening.... nor can you touch. Bring in speed steal, and they will not be moving. So there isn't any inflicted damage. Flash has many durability feats that were posted earlier. Also a plethora of abilities to end it. Deatomizing is another one.
@scyven: The flaw in this thought process of course is that an ant doesn't possess necessary speed to deliver force. It has neither the speed nor mass to do so. Like, if a five year old kid tosses a baseball to you and you don't catch it and it hits you, you might be fine. But if one of those major league greats throws it, it's still a baseball, but it hurts like hell and leave some bruises, possibly even kill you.
I'd like to see this picosecond reaction time Flash has displayed. The last time someone showed me I completely debunked the feat. It's wasnt a picosecond reaction feat, but more Flash explaining that the other guy was a picosecond ahead of him in a quick sprint. If there is another instance of this please share.
I'd like to see this picosecond reaction time Flash has displayed. The last time someone showed me I completely debunked the feat. It's wasnt a picosecond reaction feat, but more Flash explaining that the other guy was a picosecond ahead of him in a quick sprint. If there is another instance of this please share.
I'd like to see this picosecond reaction time Flash has displayed. The last time someone showed me I completely debunked the feat. It's wasnt a picosecond reaction feat, but more Flash explaining that the other guy was a picosecond ahead of him in a quick sprint. If there is another instance of this please share.
There are a few more where he outright states he can do things at pico/attosecond intervals, but they're not all combat. There's also some that, with a bit of math, imply he can do things at picosecond speeds (like his testing of Blue Superman, IIRC), or his Human Race feat where he activated every radio in the world in a septosecond, but he was amped then etc etc. Esquire posted a few similar things in his Wally West vs Odin Force Thor CAV thread, but I'm too lazy to go scanning through it.
There are a few more where he outright states he can do things at pico/attosecond intervals, but they're not all combat. There's also some that, with a bit of math, imply he can do things at picosecond speeds (like his testing of Blue Superman, IIRC), or his Human Race feat where he activated every radio in the world in a septosecond, but he was amped then etc etc. Esquire posted a few similar things in his Wally West vs Odin Force Thor CAV thread, but I'm too lazy to go scanning through it.
Yea. The first three scans hold true to the picosecond argument, but the 4th scan you posted only says he did something a picosecond ago. Not saying he couldn't have done it though...
Forgive me I'm not a flash expert but beside blinding speed is he strength higher than a humans? Because I don't care how many times an ant slaps me it ain't gonna do anything and these boys are some tough cookies
Wally uses his momentum to amp his punches, so he hits with near-infinite mass. He's KO'd Mongul and White Martians, he's even broken through Anti-Monitor's armor. He can also steal his opponents' kinetic energy and turn them into statues.
Gallery
@ToO_RaW said:
I'd like to see this picosecond reaction time Flash has displayed. If there is another instance of this please share.
Besides the ones Dredueced posted,here's what I have lying around. Rescues John Stewart from the surface of the moon, and he says he could have done it in a picosecond. The nuke one is actually done in a nanosecond, not a picosecond, but the sheer amount of actions he does is mind-boggling. I haven't calculated it myself, but I've been told traveling that amount of distance that fast would require moving at roughly 13 trillion times the speed of light.
Gallery
There's also a fight in Justice League: Elite where he's fighting two battles in, iirc, Italy and Berlin at the same time. Felix Faust has opened up a magical viewing portal from one battle to the other, and Wally moves so fast he comes face-to-face with himself on the other side of the portal. The language is also somewhat ambiguous as to whether Wally actually goes so fast he splits himself into two beings, or he's legitimately fast enough to be 1000 miles away simultaneously. That was a great story. I'll see if I can dig it up somewhere and make some scans.
@Supermanwithatan01 said:
Once he wash shot in the back if the neck with a gun (with a silencer?) and as soon as he felt the bullet touch his neck, he reacted quick enough to move like the bullet was frozen.
Here's a couple examples of it.
Gallery
@jackofspades said:
no more time wasted on this until you pick
You find learning about characters to be a waste of time? (Actually, that explains a lot.)
,all this back and forth you doing (remind me of somebody) "I'm not familiar, precisely, with exactly what I said, but I stand by whatever it was."
On the contrary, I am completely familiar with exactly what I've said over the course of this thread. I've been consistent throughout, and I do indeed stand by my claims, since I've backed them up with feats and no one has been able to refute them. Why is it so important to you that I say who wins? It changes nothing that I've said thus far in the thread, so why does it matter so much to you?
@jackofspades said:
and before you say something Wally and Barry have approximately the same durability
Unless you can show me durability feats for New-52 Barry that compare with those I've posted for pre-52 Wally, then that's not a valid assumption. Plainly and simply, pre-52 Wally is superior to New-52 Barry in every power they have in common. And to top it off, Barry wasn't severely injured from Superman's hit. He gets right back up after it and runs around some more. So even if it was an accurate commentary on Wally's durability, it wouldn't prove anything regarding the outcome of this thread.
@jackofspades said:
all three of these heroes can do what you said and more maybe not the Picosecond speed but close.flash loses in a stomp
None of Flash's opponents have Speed Steal, and Gladiator doesn't have molecule manipulation. And you're right, none of them have picosecond speed. Which is the most important thing that Wally does have.
I've seen the majority of them. That doesn't mean he wins though. An argument based off of just that is extremely weak. Especially in a fight against 3 herald level characters who are bloodlusted and Wally is in character. He doesn't know these people. He doesn't know what they can do. It's highly illogical to assume he would IMP 3 unknowns hundreds of times as soon as the fight starts as an IMP is a sort of last resort for Wally. Plus, Wally is not that type of character.
@Dredeuced: Here's the Superman Blue scan. It's not picosecond-level (I haven't calculated just how fast it is, though), but it's still darn impressive.
I've seen the majority of them. That doesn't mean he wins though. An argument based off of just that is extremely weak. Especially in a fight against 3 herald level characters who are bloodlusted and Wally is in character. He doesn't know these people. He doesn't know what they can do. It's highly illogical to assume he would IMP 3 unknowns hundreds of times as soon as the fight starts. Wally is not that type of character.
I'm not trying to make the argument that Wally wins with that post, I was just trying to clarify some points and giving feats to people who asked for them. Gladiator is a little too much of an unknown quantity for me to be totally confident in an assessment of the winners.
Plus, Wally has no answer to Gladiator's powers.
Are there any other evidences of such limitless-ness to Kallark's abilities? If he really believed he could, would he be able to warp reality, for example?
I've seen the majority of them. That doesn't mean he wins though. An argument based off of just that is extremely weak. Especially in a fight against 3 herald level characters who are bloodlusted and Wally is in character. He doesn't know these people. He doesn't know what they can do. It's highly illogical to assume he would IMP 3 unknowns hundreds of times as soon as the fight starts. Wally is not that type of character.
I'm not trying to make the argument that Wally wins with that post, I was just trying to clarify some points and giving feats to people who asked for them. Gladiator is a little too much of an unknown quantity for me to be totally confident in an assessment of the winners.
Plus, Wally has no answer to Gladiator's powers.
Are there any other evidences of such limitless-ness to Kallark's abilities? If he really believed he could, would he be able to warp reality, for example?
Reed Richards confirmed that if Gladiator believes himself invincible, he is unbeatable. And I'm not sure about the reality Warping powers. I think his powers relate to more physical and energy based things rather than abstract-ish warping powers.
I'll look for the other one where Reed says it himself. I'll also find the scan of Gladiator's origins where it explains this as well.
I could be an obscurantist and point out that it says "almost limitless strength" and "virtual invulnerability," but it's not a terribly important distinction. I wonder, does bloodlust entail unlimited confidence? If so, Flash would be in trouble. The best he could really hope for is a stalemate via speed steal, if Gladiator is literally invincible.
and before you say something Wally and Barry have approximately the same durability
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