Definitely an interesting bout to consider, Saiyan77. Both sides have their strengths and weaknesses and I love both universes. Personally, I think the space battle advantage goes to the Borg for speed and resilience. It is true that we've often seen them simply sit still and blast away at targets, but that is due to their intense durability and regenerative capabilities. They never really had to do otherwise. I think the most the Empire is going to get in this way is going to be a cube or two before the Collective wises up and starts attempting other tactics. The reason we rarely see this on Star Trek is because the Borg are always winning -- until the tables are turned on them very suddenly, not giving them time to adjust. Further, there is only one cube in most cases, and the more of the Collective there are, the faster they adapt. That has been very well shown in universe.
Further, something very rarely touched on here have been the tactics they used against the Federation in 'First Contact' and the NX-01 Enterprise on 'Enterprise.' Beaming aboard drones who begin to convert the technology of the enemy vessel into their own, granting them control rather rapidly, turning their enemies strengths against them. Even if the drones could not take the Storm Troopers in combat (and I think the Clone Troopers feats are too heavily being applied to the less skilled Storm Troopers here), they could convert their vessel and use its internal defenses and ray shielding against its inhabitants, not to mention turning external cannons against other Empire vessels.
Further, nobody has taken into account the fact that Borg cubes are all equipped with very powerful tractor beams, capable of holding even the most powerful of Federation vessels (who have much more powerful propulsion systems than the Empire) in place while they tear them apart. Empire vessels have much more limited range of attack with their weaponry (the Enterprise and other Federation vessels can literally fire in a 360 degree arc around themselves with their multiple phaser arrays) and could easily be held from a position where they were least exposed to damage while the Borg cube drained their shields (and there has been no reason given energy drain would not work on Empire shielding systems) and bombarded them with attacks/beamed drones aboard to assimilate technology and crew.
The Borg (Star Trek) vs. The Empire (Star Wars)
@percy_scott: There's really no difference in combat capability, Clones and Storms are pretty much the same. Whatever differences there might be, are really negligible and don't matter. That's far as ability goes, throwing in other factors, those lean actually more to Storms, but that's moreso just due to time era placement.
@wolfrazer: It's been a bit since I've kept up with the Expanded Universe novels and comics, but the Clone Troopers are elite warriors bred from the DNA of Jango Fett, and Storm Troopers are simply soldiers, recruits wearing the former clones' armor, are they not? I mean after the original generations died off (due to a collapse of their genetic structure which caused rapid aging, if I recall correctly.) I know what Old Ben says about their lethality, but that certainly isn't born out in any real way in the film canon, and most of the novels and comics I remember certainly make the Clone Troopers like more like the Navy Seals to the army grunts of the Storm Troopers.
I could be wrong, of course. As I admitted, it has been some time since I've kept up with the Star Wars EU in any real way, but that was always the perception I had. It certainly is the perception enforced by the film canon, whatever is said about them in the films. Being an informed threat doesn't mean anything if the facts don't support it, and the majority of Storm Troopers miss targets in the films, or mow them down by having superior numbers and spamming blaster-fire in a way that ensures hitting something sooner or later. I'm not claiming the Rebels look any better in the films (outside of the heroes, of course), but I was never impressed with them.
@percy_scott: It's best if I just re-direct you to this thread. May also want to look at the Imperial Army Trooper thread too, as they are quite the force and Stormtroopers are better than they are.
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/star-wars-stormtrooper-respect-thread-1680470/
The Rebel Troopers are pretty great too, I also made a thread for them.
Have you even bothered to read my post?
Without the logistical and industrial capability, the Borg cannot do diddly squat against the Empire. You assume the Empire doesn't have the technology to modify their shields, yet they have the technology to harness energy from an entire star to destroy star systems, able to transverse from one side of a galaxy to another in days, etc. It's silly to assume that a galactic spanning Empire cannot do something so relatively simple, something that a very young civilisation that's barely been a part of the galactic community can achieve. You also assume that the Empire will sit back and do absolutely nothing as the Borg do these things. They will destroy their own ships if the Borg somehow manage to get on, and somehow manage to kill thousands of troopers. They are easily replaced. That's the perk of having a galactic-spanning civilisation.
Furthermore, you haven't even sourced all this information. Technoblabble like "modified the energy stream of their modular confinement beam to resonate the same as the energy field being put out by the shield array" isn't going to win you a war when the enemy has more firepower than you, outnumbers you and can strike any of your systems at will without having to worry about reinforcements because they're too damn slow.
And since Grand Admiral Thrawn is now canon, I almost feel sorry for the Borg. They use the same stupid tactics over and over again, Thrawn will have a field day picking out their fleet weaknesses. He doesn't need to be Picard to destroy them surgically.
Further, nobody has taken into account the fact that Borg cubes are all equipped with very powerful tractor beams, capable of holding even the most powerful of Federation vessels (who have much more powerful propulsion systems than the Empire) in place while they tear them apart. Empire vessels have much more limited range of attack with their weaponry (the Enterprise and other Federation vessels can literally fire in a 360 degree arc around themselves with their multiple phaser arrays) and could easily be held from a position where they were least exposed to damage while the Borg cube drained their shields (and there has been no reason given energy drain would not work on Empire shielding systems) and bombarded them with attacks/beamed drones aboard to assimilate technology and crew.
No they don't. According to ICS, an Acclamator troop transport used in the clone wars has a sublight acceleration of 3500G. According to the TNG TM, it is 1000G for the Enterprise. Range has already been addressed in an earlier post. Your 360 degree arc really isn't all that impressive considering most capital ships in the SW universe are armed to the teeth with weapons. It's not going to matter if they are "held into position", they will just blow the ship up (or tractor beam emplacements, were I to be generous). There is nothing stopping said ship from performing a micro hyperspace jump, then jumping again. You also seem to be forgetting that your standard destroyer is much more powerful than the most powerful of Federation vessels, both in terms of energy output, speed, shield strength and weapons. In fact, I do not see the point using tractor beams on large cruisers at all - they're not going to dodge, twist and turn out of there.
The Borg can try and drain their shields all they want, they'll be at it for quite a long time probably. Actually, no they won't, because they'll be destroyed. Imperial ships aren't just going to sit there and take it like a bitch, unless they are fighter craft which is no big deal because they have plenty of those. Furthermore, the Borg cannot beam through shields. And even if they get through, you're talking about a military ship full of soldiers carrying a vast array of weaponry. Including kinetic ones like thermal grenades. And even if that doesn't work, the ship can self destruct or be destroyed by another ship at the moment the Borg have control.
Let's not forget what happened the last time the Borg met a race more vast and technologically advanced than them - they got crushed to the point they were asking the Federation for help. They were going to be wiped out.
@steelhound56: The EU is not canon...
Yall need to stop talking about the EU. Its not canon.
The EU is cancer to these forums. How fans can accept that the characters we see and the powerset we see in the movies. Is magically a million times more powerful in the EU, is beyond me. I can never stand when someone tries to bastardize a character or universe I love. SWs fans seem to love it though.
Something nobody has talked about and I am rather surprised by it is, the Empire I assume grows the food they need to feed their troops on planets since I have not seen any large hydroponics bays on Star Destroyers in the movies (I could totally be wrong, so say so if I am). The Borg do not need food to survive, they just need energy which they can almost unlimited amounts of. So the Borg wouldn't even have to do ship to ship battle at all, just warp to a planet, beam down a single drone and assimilate the entire thing and all of its technology. Planetary shields would be worthless since in Rogue one, the way they pass through the shield is a physical hole in it, which would be all the Borg would need to transport if we were to assume they couldn't tp through shields like they have done multiple times in ST. So if they assimilate a planet I would assume the Empire would destroy the planet to keep the Borg from taking it over completely and assimilating all of the tech. So the Empire would be crippling itself in the effort to save themselves. I am not familiar enough with number of planets in the setting of SW but if each cube carries up to 130,000 drones and a single drone could assimilate an entire planet, it wouldn't be long before the Empire would be fighting on infinite fronts. So firepower between the two universes is a moot point, because they ships wound't ever have to face off in the first place and then Empire would lose just based on attrition. Also since troopers are normal people they have a long time to mature and be able to fight, where as a borg drone is created in a matter of hours. So the Borg would be able to beam to a planet, assimilate its technology and it people gaining a significant advantage each time while at the exact same time weakening the Empire.
People on here have also brought up using the force to stop them. Since Wookieepedia doesn't specifically say how the force is applied, but that it is in every living cell in the galaxy in SW universe I am just assuming here (and I admit I could be wrong) that the physics of the force is basically Midi-chlorian on Midi-chlorian interaction. If this is the case, then Borg would be immune to direct force attack since they are coming from a galaxy that doesn't have Midi-chlorians. Now I assume the force users could still manipulate things that originated in their galaxy to attack the Borg.
If that is not how the force is applied, then we can use this approach; since Midi-chlorians live inside cells of everything in the galaxy and Borg nanoprobes assimilate cells, then it is only a matter of time before they would find a way to manipulate or negate the force as well. Imagine they assimilate a planet, and since all the living things on that planet have Midi-chlorians in them, then it is conceivable that the Borg could find out how the Midi-chlorians are able to communicate with the force, and according to canon Midi-chlorians allow users to be sensitive to the force they are not actually the force themselves, then the Borg could in theory literally all become force users by finding out how the communication works.
According to memory-alpha it is estimated that millions of Borg cubes exist, and I am assuming that there are millions of planets in the SW galaxy, so we could estimate that there is potentially a single Borg cube for each planet (even if there isn't there are other Borg ships such as a sphere) (also the Empire doesn't have control of every planet in their galaxy ie: the outer rim) and each cube has the ability to assimilate all elements of a civilization (which if they assimilated Mon Cala they would have their tech and it is comparable to the Empire) and the Empire wouldn't have shields around every planet or a fleet parked at every planet then there is no way that the Empire wins. Even if the Empire had superior firepower (like the do against the Rebels) the Borg would still win because of a war of attrition and that would only happen if you took the Borg's ability to adapt to new tech away from them.
Darth Vader is assimilated after killing a dozen drones then the Borg have knowledge of the force end game...Now the Borg drones are Vader level sith drones.... Scary.. lol
Something nobody has talked about and I am rather surprised by it is, the Empire I assume grows the food they need to feed their troops on planets since I have not seen any large hydroponics bays on Star Destroyers in the movies (I could totally be wrong, so say so if I am). The Borg do not need food to survive, they just need energy which they can almost unlimited amounts of. So the Borg wouldn't even have to do ship to ship battle at all, just warp to a planet, beam down a single drone and assimilate the entire thing and all of its technology. Planetary shields would be worthless since in Rogue one, the way they pass through the shield is a physical hole in it, which would be all the Borg would need to transport if we were to assume they couldn't tp through shields like they have done multiple times in ST. So if they assimilate a planet I would assume the Empire would destroy the planet to keep the Borg from taking it over completely and assimilating all of the tech. So the Empire would be crippling itself in the effort to save themselves. I am not familiar enough with number of planets in the setting of SW but if each cube carries up to 130,000 drones and a single drone could assimilate an entire planet, it wouldn't be long before the Empire would be fighting on infinite fronts. So firepower between the two universes is a moot point, because they ships wound't ever have to face off in the first place and then Empire would lose just based on attrition. Also since troopers are normal people they have a long time to mature and be able to fight, where as a borg drone is created in a matter of hours. So the Borg would be able to beam to a planet, assimilate its technology and it people gaining a significant advantage each time while at the exact same time weakening the Empire.
People on here have also brought up using the force to stop them. Since Wookieepedia doesn't specifically say how the force is applied, but that it is in every living cell in the galaxy in SW universe I am just assuming here (and I admit I could be wrong) that the physics of the force is basically Midi-chlorian on Midi-chlorian interaction. If this is the case, then Borg would be immune to direct force attack since they are coming from a galaxy that doesn't have Midi-chlorians. Now I assume the force users could still manipulate things that originated in their galaxy to attack the Borg.
If that is not how the force is applied, then we can use this approach; since Midi-chlorians live inside cells of everything in the galaxy and Borg nanoprobes assimilate cells, then it is only a matter of time before they would find a way to manipulate or negate the force as well. Imagine they assimilate a planet, and since all the living things on that planet have Midi-chlorians in them, then it is conceivable that the Borg could find out how the Midi-chlorians are able to communicate with the force, and according to canon Midi-chlorians allow users to be sensitive to the force they are not actually the force themselves, then the Borg could in theory literally all become force users by finding out how the communication works.
According to memory-alpha it is estimated that millions of Borg cubes exist, and I am assuming that there are millions of planets in the SW galaxy, so we could estimate that there is potentially a single Borg cube for each planet (even if there isn't there are other Borg ships such as a sphere) (also the Empire doesn't have control of every planet in their galaxy ie: the outer rim) and each cube has the ability to assimilate all elements of a civilization (which if they assimilated Mon Cala they would have their tech and it is comparable to the Empire) and the Empire wouldn't have shields around every planet or a fleet parked at every planet then there is no way that the Empire wins. Even if the Empire had superior firepower (like the do against the Rebels) the Borg would still win because of a war of attrition and that would only happen if you took the Borg's ability to adapt to new tech away from them.
Do you just jump into threads without reading anything?
Most of these points have already been addressed. The Empire is not going to sit there twiddling its thumbs while the Borg attempt to attack their colonies. We have seen in Voyager just how exactly the Borg fare up against a species that is far more technologically superior than them; they get ripped to shreds. Your battle tactics don't even make any sense. What does "because they ships wound't ever have to face off in the first place" supposed to mean? If they want to do anything, they still have to engage fleets of ships. Your planetary shields argument also doesn't make any sense - that is just one variant of planetary shield, they can always keep it closed indefinitely. You also fail to neglect that there will be frequent jamming which would make it exceptionally hard to beam anything through. Also, they would easily be able to set up shields on every planet... even a ragtag Rebel outpost could set one up quickly on a remote, insignificant planet (Hoth). And no, the Borg can't beam through shields.
You also underestimate just how much territory the Empire controls. You can't create infinite fronts if you lack the logistics and speed for it... there are no transwarp hubs in Imperial territory. Regular warp drive takes decades to even pass through one quadrant of a galaxy. And yes, you are wrong about the Force. Inanimate objects such as ships and rocks do not have midi-chlorians, yet anybody with Force powers have no problem throwing them around. You are reaching to even suggest the Borg are capable of "assimilating" the Force. In fact this is the dumbest argument I've read on this thread. People who aren't Force-sensitive will never be able to use the Force, and neither will the Borg. It's not something that can be assimilated.
How is a Borg cube going to reach every planet? Will they even know how to get there? Do you just assume the Imperial fleet, or the Chiss Ascendency, or the multitude of other factions will just sit there and do nothing? How can you call this a war of attrition when the Borg do not have the numbers, the logistics or the speed to invade a galaxy that they haven't even mapped out? You're dealing with a galactic civilisation that has the power to destroy entire planetary systems from one side of the galaxy to another, with use of hyperspace weaponry, who can build moon-sized battle stations in little time (in secret). With the Empire's superior speed, logistical and industrial capacity, the Borg get curbstomped before they even make a beachhead. Even the Federation, a puny collection of member states, were able to defeat the Borg, and even inflict damage to their ships despite the Borg "adapting" to them.
I will refer you to my post earlier for a more in-depth rundown between their capabilities. Your "no limits" fallacy isn't going to work here.
We can also use real history to show being bigger and have bigger guns means jack.......ask the Spanish how their armada faired against the English......
No you can't.
The Spanish and English had similar technology, and the applications to such tech were limited in scope. You can't compare naval battles to galaxy-wide conflicts, especially if the discrepancy in industrial and tech capacity is so large. You could try to compare tactics I suppose, which on that point the Borg hilariously fail at (time and time again). A competent commander such as Thrawn would eat them for breakfast.
Borg
much easier for them to replenish their forces and with every tec they assimilate it will get harder for the empire
Replenish them from what? Thin air?
The Empire has a galaxy of resources to draw from, the Borg don't. They won't be able to reinforce their planets, or their complexes. And assuming they do assimilate their tech, they still have to manufacture it, and actually use it effectively. They couldn't even defeat the Federation. Species 8472 were on the verge of eradicating them... why? Because they couldn't adapt to their weapons, they were just too powerful. When you put so much energy into a system, there is a limit. The Borg aren't immune to the laws of the universe.
Borg
much easier for them to replenish their forces and with every tec they assimilate it will get harder for the empire
Replenish them from what? Thin air?
easy - the assimilate
The Empire has a galaxy of resources to draw from, the Borg don't. They won't be able to reinforce their planets, or their complexes. And assuming they do assimilate their tech, they still have to manufacture it, and actually use it effectively.
manufacturing is not a problem - thanks to replicators and nanotechnology (even adapting mid-fight is not a problem as seen in ent - where they continuously improved a normal transporter (without weapons and low warp capabilitites) to compete with one of the most advanced spaceships of that time.
using it effectively is not a problem - you know that they get all the knowledge from a person after assimilation?
They couldn't even defeat the Federation. When you put so much energy into a system, there is a limit.
now you bring pis/cis up? without pis/cis the borg would rule over the galaxy (especially after all the information we got about them in voyager....)
Species 8472 were on the verge of eradicating them... why? Because they couldn't adapt to their weapons, they were just too powerful.
you are forgetting context.....
the borg couldnt assimilate species 8472 because of their biology.... and since their only way to adapt/learn is by assimilation.... it was their downfall
that wouldnt be the case here - the only way for the empire to win this, is destryoing the enitre borg-fleet in one strike and that wont happen...
the longer the fight lasts the better for the borg
a simple torpedo is enough to assimilate nearby planets......... drones are being teleported on board the sw-ships etc.
while the empire loses ships - the borg are getting stronger and stronger
easy - the assimilate
You still need raw materials to have a fully functioning fleet.
manufacturing is not a problem - thanks to replicators and nanotechnology (even adapting mid-fight is not a problem as seen in ent - where they continuously improved a normal transporter (without weapons and low warp capabilitites) to compete with one of the most advanced spaceships of that time.
Replicators have a limit, you can't replicate entire ships with them. You still need shipyards and raw materials to build ships. The Borg doesn't even have the entirety of the Delta quadrant - they won't be able to compete against a galactic spanning Empire.
using it effectively is not a problem - you know that they get all the knowledge from a person after assimilation?
Of course it's a problem - the Borg are tactically inept. They get all this knowledge but they don't use it properly, case in point: they couldn't defeat the Federation.
now you bring pis/cis up? without pis/cis the borg would rule over the galaxy (especially after all the information we got about them in voyager....)
Elaboration needed.
you are forgetting context.....
the borg couldnt assimilate species 8472 because of their biology.... and since their only way to adapt/learn is by assimilation.... it was their downfall
that wouldnt be the case here - the only way for the empire to win this, is destryoing the enitre borg-fleet in one strike and that wont happen...
the longer the fight lasts the better for the borg
a simple torpedo is enough to assimilate nearby planets......... drones are being teleported on board the sw-ships etc.
while the empire loses ships - the borg are getting stronger and stronger
I'm not forgetting context at all. Biology was not just one reason, it was because their weapons were stupendously powerful. Adaptation has limits, just like everything else. This is clearly obvious in First Contact when Federation ships were still able to damage Borg cubes even after they adapted to Federation weapons. Imperial weapons are many multitude times more powerful than Federation weapons... heavy turbolasers pack 200GT per shot, your average star destroyer is bristling with these weapons. Borg cubes are a big, slow and easy target to shoot. The Borg's lack of tactics is also a severe weakness that can be exploited.
The Empire won't have to destroy the entire Borg fleet at once, they can pick them apart bit by bit. You have no evidence that they can adapt to Imperial weapons and magically be immune to them, you're making leaps in logic assuming that just because they can adapt to weaker races, means the same applies to significantly more stronger ones. Meanwhile, I've given you proof that Borg vessels can easily be destroyed provided the weapons used have enough firepower and that adaptation has limits.
What torpedo? Do you think they're just going to sit there and let it hit a planet? It'd be useless against a planetary shield. How are drones going to be teleported onto vessels when shields stop them from beaming in? And even if they do beam aboard ships, they're going to have to contend with hundreds of troopers. Considering the Borg don't attack crew members and let them pass through if they don't shoot at them, and their general ineptness in combat (as demonstrated by unarmoured Federation crew being to able to kill them, and Picard in a suit with a 20th century tommy gun), then why do you assume it's a sudden fait de accompli?
Your entire argument hinges on the fact that the Borg can assimilate and adapt to everything, and the Empire twiddles their thumbs and does nothing while the Borg attempt it. In a war of attrition, numbers, speed and logistics determine the winner. Something the Borg don't have against this particular opponent. Honestly, the Borg are one of the most overrated sci-fi races out there. They might look cool, and their motto might sound cool, but they've demonstrated time and time again that they cannot counter superior tactics (seeing how dumb they are at this themselves), and cannot even beat a 150-member world Type II civilisation. The Empire is Type III, on a completely different level... most likely what S8472 is too. In a few months against the latter, they were fighting to avoid extinction. The same would happen against the Empire.
@mcroyalewithcheese: The Borg have demonstrated that they can quite easily drain planetary shields, or shields in general.
I also think that the Borg really shouldn't have any problem adapting to laser technology. Saying the Borg would simply charge headlong into combat against laser-wielding foes when lasers are a very common weapon in the galaxy is absurd. Just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
I would probably hing heavily on the Empire's propoganda, logistics, and the resources they are willing to dump in murderous death machines, as well as their willingness to use slave labor and their very likely ability to analyze borg technology with their scientists.
Also, S8472 is out of context, they fought off the Borg because they could not be assimilated, and they were simply more advanced than them in every way. It's like arguing that the Yuuzhan Vong were stronger than the Empire, so the Empire is doomed.
Also, Civilization types are entirely related to the amount of power they utilize, and Star Wars does not utilize the power of an entire galaxy, unless you can point me to how you're working that out.
@mcroyalewithcheese: I read every post on this forum thank you. A single ship is needed to assimilate a planet, and since nothing other than the movies and shows is canon then the whole voodoo magic from all the side stuff doesn't matter. The fact is that no where in the movies has the empire shown a fleet anywhere near large enough to defend every single planet in their galaxy. All the Borg need is ONE planet and they have the empire tech. You can say that I don't understand how many resources the Empire has, but it doesn't really matter since they can't be everywhere all the time so every loss of a planet is a loss of a resource, which the Borg will be able to use significantly more effectively than the Empire did. Also, just because they may be tech superior in some aspects they are not in others. The Empire doesn't have the ability to make things out of thin air, but the Borg do. The Empire doesn't have teleporter tech, the Borg do. The Borg use transwarp hubs and transwarp conduits which have been shown to be almost as fast as the Empire's FTL, but they can go where they choose and can change path mid flight which the Empire can't. The Borg also have the ability to scan vast distances while at warp, unlike the Empire. All of these things you just mentioned have been addressed in previous comments so it must be you who did not read the posts. They don't HAVE to invade every planet all at once, but they have the ability to take a fleet and fly around until they find planets, and then the Empire would have to respond, which by the time the fleet gets there severe damage would have been done and whatever faction was there would have given up some tech the borg would use to advance theirs. You act like the Empire is this all powerful god who can be everywhere and know everything all at one time.....they obviously can't otherwise the Empire would have beaten the Rebels. If all of these factions you mentioned exist and a SINGLE person who knows ANYTHING about the tech is assimilated then the Borg have that knowledge themselves. So a single ship, assimilates a single person, from a single backwater planet who knows anything about the tech then the entire Collective has it. So then the Borg would know where all the planets are, or least a large chunk, they would know how the tech works and would adapt and build their ships to resist it, would make their weapons (which have WAY farther range than anything the Empire has) just as powerful as the Empires in power output but would be way better because of the range. So no matter how you look at it, the Empire would lose unless you pull some epic bs from non-canon sources in which my response would be the Borg have assimilated the TOS planet killer and the Empire gets mega raped.
they assimilate other ships.... or useless junk like the transporter i mentioned above, that they transformed into a ship that was capable to compete with one of the most advanced human ships in that time period.
you make it sound as if they have to build brand new ships (which they still can do without problems)
Replicators have a limit, you can't replicate entire ships with them. You still need shipyards and raw materials to build ships. The Borg doesn't even have the entirety of the Delta quadrant - they won't be able to compete against a galactic spanning Empire.
of course you cant replicate an entire ship at once and there is no need to
what they do with the delta quadrant doesnt matter - this is a fight empire vs borg
using it effectively is not a problem - you know that they get all the knowledge from a person after assimilation?
Of course it's a problem - the Borg are tactically inept. They get all this knowledge but they don't use it properly, case in point: they couldn't defeat the Federation.
yes - they get all the knowledge and there is no problem because on the battle forum you are not protected by plot/pis/cis
now you bring pis/cis up? without pis/cis the borg would rule over the galaxy (especially after all the information we got about them in voyager....)
Elaboration needed.
what is there to elaborate? you know what cis/pis is? without that the borg would have already destroyed the federation....
or why do you think the borg dont use a transwarp conduit that is less than a light year away from earth?
or why they dont go back in time, then travel to earth to conquer it instead of travel to earth - go back in time and give the enterprise a chance to pursue them?
and so on
you are forgetting context.....
the borg couldnt assimilate species 8472 because of their biology.... and since their only way to adapt/learn is by assimilation.... it was their downfall
that wouldnt be the case here - the only way for the empire to win this, is destryoing the enitre borg-fleet in one strike and that wont happen...
the longer the fight lasts the better for the borg
a simple torpedo is enough to assimilate nearby planets......... drones are being teleported on board the sw-ships etc.
while the empire loses ships - the borg are getting stronger and stronger
I'm not forgetting context at all. Biology was not just one reason, it was because their weapons were stupendously powerful. Adaptation has limits, just like everything else. This is clearly obvious in First Contact when Federation ships were still able to damage Borg cubes even after they adapted to Federation weapons. Imperial weapons are many multitude times more powerful than Federation weapons... heavy turbolasers pack 200GT per shot, your average star destroyer is bristling with these weapons. Borg cubes are a big, slow and easy target to shoot. The Borg's lack of tactics is also a severe weakness that can be exploited.
The Empire won't have to destroy the entire Borg fleet at once, they can pick them apart bit by bit. You have no evidence that they can adapt to Imperial weapons and magically be immune to them, you're making leaps in logic assuming that just because they can adapt to weaker races, means the same applies to significantly more stronger ones. Meanwhile, I've given you proof that Borg vessels can easily be destroyed provided the weapons used have enough firepower and that adaptation has limits.
What torpedo? Do you think they're just going to sit there and let it hit a planet? It'd be useless against a planetary shield. How are drones going to be teleported onto vessels when shields stop them from beaming in? And even if they do beam aboard ships, they're going to have to contend with hundreds of troopers. Considering the Borg don't attack crew members and let them pass through if they don't shoot at them, and their general ineptness in combat (as demonstrated by unarmoured Federation crew being to able to kill them, and Picard in a suit with a 20th century tommy gun), then why do you assume it's a sudden fait de accompli?
Your entire argument hinges on the fact that the Borg can assimilate and adapt to everything, and the Empire twiddles their thumbs and does nothing while the Borg attempt it. In a war of attrition, numbers, speed and logistics determine the winner. Something the Borg don't have against this particular opponent. Honestly, the Borg are one of the most overrated sci-fi races out there. They might look cool, and their motto might sound cool, but they've demonstrated time and time again that they cannot counter superior tactics (seeing how dumb they are at this themselves), and cannot even beat a 150-member world Type II civilisation. The Empire is Type III, on a completely different level... most likely what S8472 is too. In a few months against the latter, they were fighting to avoid extinction. The same would happen against the Empire.
nope it was because of their biology - if they simply could assimilate species 8472 there wouldnt be a problem at all -
borg nanites from the 24th century had no problem to assimilate technology from the 29th century (you know the 29th century? where time travel/beaming across galaxy/through time/interphase technology is childs play) .... they wont have problems with empire technology...
since when do empire ships have protection against beaming? you destroy a borg ship and they teleport on board - then they slowly start to assimilate
and it doesnt really matter on which ship they teleport or from which they get people to assimilate - every piece of technology/knowledge they get shifts the fight in their favor
as seen when they easily adapted to future-tec from the voyager in endgame while fighting
your whole defence is based on pis/cis/plot-protection shown the borg appear in star trek but that doesnt help here
borg they have better ships better weapons the only advantage the empire have is hand to hand and force powers but the borg's numbers adaptation powers and relentlessness will eventually over whelm them and most of the fighting will be done in ships and the borg's ships are far to advanced
you make it sound as if they have to build brand new ships (which they still can do without problems)
Well yes, no shit. The bulk of the Borg fleet consists of cubes. They have to build them from something. They have to if they're going to recoup their losses from a war.
of course you cant replicate an entire ship at once and there is no need to
what they do with the delta quadrant doesnt matter - this is a fight empire vs borg
What they do with the Delta quadrant matters a lot, because it shows their territory/projection of power. If they can't even dominate their entire region, then their power projection is a lot weaker than a galactic spanning Empire.
what is there to elaborate? you know what cis/pis is? without that the borg would have already destroyed the federation....
or why do you think the borg dont use a transwarp conduit that is less than a light year away from earth?
or why they dont go back in time, then travel to earth to conquer it instead of travel to earth - go back in time and give the enterprise a chance to pursue them?
and so on
It would be nice if you actually said what cis/pis even stands for.
Well, the Borg didn't destroy them. They got routed by a lesser civilisation time and time again, who are considerably weaker than the Borg. That matters a lot when matching them up against more powerful civs.
Because the Borg are idiots. And that is one of their weaknesses... a hive mind have no creative thinking, no out-of-the-box ideas. That's why they send out one cube at a time, instead of an armada.
Time travel doesn't work like that. It'd make an alternate timeline. And they tried time travel before; didn't work out for them.
nope it was because of their biology - if they simply could assimilate species 8472 there wouldnt be a problem at all -
borg nanites from the 24th century had no problem to assimilate technology from the 29th century (you know the 29th century? where time travel/beaming across galaxy/through time/interphase technology is childs play) .... they wont have problems with empire technology...
since when do empire ships have protection against beaming? you destroy a borg ship and they teleport on board - then they slowly start to assimilate
and it doesnt really matter on which ship they teleport or from which they get people to assimilate - every piece of technology/knowledge they get shifts the fight in their favor
as seen when they easily adapted to future-tec from the voyager in endgame while fighting
your whole defence is based on pis/cis/plot-protection shown the borg appear in star trek but that doesnt help here
That's just an assumption, nothing more. You've zero basis to say that, apart from a silly no-limits fallacy. The Borg aren't Q. They couldn't even assimilate Data. We can clearly see that S8472 vessels do considerable damage to Borg ships, illustrating that too much firepower can punch through any defences they have.
Source?
They're called shields. You can't beam through them. And even if the Borg beam on, then what? Is the ship garrison just going to let them do it? Borg drones show as much tactical creativity as a used teabag, that easily get beaten by unarmoured Federation crewmates. Even Worf, in melee, easily dispatches them. Look how easy Picard mows them down with a primitive 20th century gun in First Contact. Oh, are you going to ignore that too 'cos 'plot armour'?
Right, because every ship is going to have all the technological expertise and top level secrets? Not to mention the fact that not all the computers are going to be linked together, ship systems in SW are compartmentalised. The Borg getting a computer terminal (assuming they're not blown up in the process) doesn't mean they're magically going to have access to everything.
Source?
No, my argument is based on established figures, capabilities and tactics. The Borg are stupid, and their ships can still be damaged even if adapted to enemy fire. You can call it "plot protection" all you want, but you can't ignore evidence just because it's inconvenient to you. Hell, at one point the Federation had a chance to wipe out the Borg entirely, but somehow a galactic Empire many times more advanced than the Federation can't do this? That doesn't even make any sense. It's Borg-wankery, nothing more. Try to be objective.
It's funny that you don't even address the number, speed and logistical discrepancy. That's the meat and potatoes of this match-up. If you don't have an argument for that, then there's no point discussing this further. Really, all the Empire needs to do is launch hyperdrive-capable weapons that can destroy planets from a remote corner of the galaxy where the Borg can't even get to because without transwarp complexes, their FTL tech is pathetically slow.
borg they have better ships better weapons the only advantage the empire have is hand to hand and force powers but the borg's numbers adaptation powers and relentlessness will eventually over whelm them and most of the fighting will be done in ships and the borg's ships are far to advanced
Better ships, better weapons. Based on what information?
You talk about Borg numbers, but they are not a galactic spanning race. They don't even have full control over their quadrant. You think the Borg are relentless? Hah. The Empire destroys entire planets just to make a point.
"Far too advanced", yet they have nothing remotely near the speed and logistical capabilities as the Empire has. Not to mention power generation - the death star alone dwarfs anything that the Borg can generate in terms of raw power output. I'm not even going to mention Starkiller base, they have the kind of tech that can literally absorb stars without getting damaged. SW has hyperspace capable weapons that can destroy entire systems, something the Borg have no defence against. The Empire could literally destroy system after system from the other side of the galaxy, and the Borg would have no way of getting to them because compared to hyperdrive tech, warp drive is incredibly slow (70 years to go from one quadrant to another).
@mcroyalewithcheese: there ships have no shields and there weapon systems are all lazers hell starwars measurements for speed isn't even a real measurement one borg cube could just set in front of the deathstar with shields up and do nothing else and would be fine and the simplest attack would completely destroy the any ship it is directed at.
The Borg have demonstrated that they can quite easily drain planetary shields, or shields in general.
Yes, weak shields of individual ships. Good luck trying to drain the shield of an Imperial vessel in a short amount of time without getting destroyed. And a planetary shield? Do you have a source for that?
I also think that the Borg really shouldn't have any problem adapting to laser technology. Saying the Borg would simply charge headlong into combat against laser-wielding foes when lasers are a very common weapon in the galaxy is absurd. Just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
It has been demonstrated the Borg are poor tacticians, time and time again, not utilising their advantages to beat a lesser civ. This goes against them. Can you actually provide a canonical source showing the Borg good tactical prowess? Anything?
As for absence of evidence, cop-out. If you're going to claim the Borg can do this and that, you have to provide evidence. If they don't use a tactic or an ability that they clearly have, because they are incompetent, then that's evidence the Borg are tactically inept.
I would probably hing heavily on the Empire's propoganda, logistics, and the resources they are willing to dump in murderous death machines, as well as their willingness to use slave labor and their very likely ability to analyze borg technology with their scientists.
Oh, there'd be no problem about that. An existential threat outside the galaxy would rally everyone.
Also, S8472 is out of context, they fought off the Borg because they could not be assimilated, and they were simply more advanced than them in every way. It's like arguing that the Yuuzhan Vong were stronger than the Empire, so the Empire is doomed.
It's not out of context because it illustrates that their weapons are incredibly strong. Assimilation has its limits, this is just evidence of it. You put enough energy into a system, it'll be destroyed, "assimilation" or otherwise. This is apparent in First Contact even with the Federation. Also in Traitor Nom Anor concedes the Empire would have curb-stomped the Vong. He had first-hand information of the galactic situation prior to the NR's rise, being a spy.
Also, Civilization types are entirely related to the amount of power they utilize, and Star Wars does not utilize the power of an entire galaxy, unless you can point me to how you're working that out.
Michio Kaku's word is enough for me. There is further commentary here.
Yes, weak shields of individual ships. Good luck trying to drain the shield of an Imperial vessel in a short amount of time without getting destroyed. And a planetary shield? Do you have a source for that?
Weak shields? You mean the shields of the Enterprise, the flagship of the Federation?
And I mispoke, I meant ship shields.
It has been demonstrated the Borg are poor tacticians, time and time again, not utilising their advantages to beat a lesser civ. This goes against them. Can you actually provide a canonical source showing the Borg good tactical prowess? Anything?
As for absence of evidence, cop-out. If you're going to claim the Borg can do this and that, you have to provide evidence. If they don't use a tactic or an ability that they clearly have, because they are incompetent, then that's evidence the Borg are tactically inept.
When it comes to tactics the Borg do actually demonstrate very good tactics in all-out war. If they launched a war against the Empire, it wouldn't just be a Borg Cube rushing around and murdering Star Wars ships. It would be small scout tactics, scooping up Imperial Outposts from the farthest parts of the galaxy, sneaking around, picking up technology and new life forms, adding more to their collective and building up their forces as much as they could in secret. This is how the Borg waged war against the federation, they even went as far as determining that they could get the Federation to surrender if they had an emissary like Locutus. Those are some prime tactics, though I will admit on the short-term, they don't adapt well, individually they are weak, on ground tactics they would need to build an entire strategy before a single offensive swipe across the galaxy. The real key to Borg tactics are assimilate as many people as you can on the fringes of Civilization, gather their technology, determine their advancement, incorporate that technology into their own-they didn't change much upon incorporating Federation technology since the Federation's technology was generally inferior to their own. If the Borg went up against Star Wars, and you argue that Star Wars are a superior civilization with superior technology and a higher level of advancement, the Borg would assimilate that technology, not just the people, and in general, that is part of what makes them incredibly dangerous.
That's not a cop-out, I'm just saying it makes logical sense their shields should be able to deflect lasers. Lasers and phasers are both energy, and the Borg shields have only even shown vulnerability to physical impacts-ie bullets.
Oh, there'd be no problem about that. An existential threat outside the galaxy would rally everyone.
Something something something the enemy of the enemy is my friend
It's not out of context because it illustrates that their weapons are incredibly strong. Assimilation has its limits, this is just evidence of it. You put enough energy into a system, it'll be destroyed, "assimilation" or otherwise. This is apparent in First Contact even with the Federation. Also in Traitor Nom Anor concedes the Empire would have curb-stomped the Vong. He had first-hand information of the galactic situation prior to the NR's rise, being a spy.
I recall the events in Traitor I was simply making a point of the claims. While assimilation has its limits, those limits are, they can't assimilate a people who can destroy them instantaneously. If you want to argue Super Star Destroyers could obliterate Borg Cubes and Spheres, that's part of why the Borg don't go up against the biggest heaviest hitters first, they pick off the small fish, building themselves up, then go in for the full attack. Part of the reason the Borg had such trouble with assimilating S8472 was because they were entirely biological, something completely alien to the Borg, they couldn't comprehend how to even begin incorporating the technology of a nation who's technology is made up of biology.
Michio Kaku's word is enough for me. There is further commentary here.
I actually know that scientist and his statements on Civilization Types, he simply never expanded on why Star Wars is a Type III Civilization in the statements I saw, thanks for the link though, that clarifies things perfectly well. Though I should point out that while they're capable of that level of energy output, that's in the situation of the Death Star alone.
@mcroyalewithcheese: What makes you think the Borg can't beam through their shields?
The fact is that no where in the movies has the empire shown a fleet anywhere near large enough to defend every single planet in their galaxy. All the Borg need is ONE planet and they have the empire tech. You can say that I don't understand how many resources the Empire has, but it doesn't really matter since they can't be everywhere all the time so every loss of a planet is a loss of a resource, which the Borg will be able to use significantly more effectively than the Empire did. Also, just because they may be tech superior in some aspects they are not in others. The Empire doesn't have the ability to make things out of thin air, but the Borg do. The Empire doesn't have teleporter tech, the Borg do. The Borg use transwarp hubs and transwarp conduits which have been shown to be almost as fast as the Empire's FTL, but they can go where they choose and can change path mid flight which the Empire can't. The Borg also have the ability to scan vast distances while at warp, unlike the Empire. All of these things you just mentioned have been addressed in previous comments so it must be you who did not read the posts. They don't HAVE to invade every planet all at once, but they have the ability to take a fleet and fly around until they find planets, and then the Empire would have to respond, which by the time the fleet gets there severe damage would have been done and whatever faction was there would have given up some tech the borg would use to advance theirs. You act like the Empire is this all powerful god who can be everywhere and know everything all at one time.....they obviously can't otherwise the Empire would have beaten the Rebels. If all of these factions you mentioned exist and a SINGLE person who knows ANYTHING about the tech is assimilated then the Borg have that knowledge themselves. So a single ship, assimilates a single person, from a single backwater planet who knows anything about the tech then the entire Collective has it. So then the Borg would know where all the planets are, or least a large chunk, they would know how the tech works and would adapt and build their ships to resist it, would make their weapons (which have WAY farther range than anything the Empire has) just as powerful as the Empires in power output but would be way better because of the range. So no matter how you look at it, the Empire would lose unless you pull some epic bs from non-canon sources in which my response would be the Borg have assimilated the TOS planet killer and the Empire gets mega raped.
They don't have to defend every single planet due to the immense hyperdrive speeds that can be utilised. The Empire can reinforce sectors of space pretty quickly assuming a full-war footing. And even if they did have to defend every single planet, the existence of both the death stars just shows the Empire's immense industrial capacity so it'd be no problem to build more (a galactic spanning race, by default, must have ships at least in the millions to enforce such a wide area - in the place of an outside threat, that number would be even more). You say that the Borg just need one planet and they'd have Empire tech, but that'd depend on the world. They're not going to get much from a backwater world for example.
The point is, the Empire is just not going to sit there and do nothing as the Borg encroaches on its territory. They are going to destroy them.
Replicators, as already explained, have a limit. They can't endlessly make ship parts, they are still reliant on a power source. The Empire doesn't need teleporters, and it not be impossible for them to create one seeing how technologically advanced they are (there may be religious/taboo reasons not to use them). Transwarp hubs and conduits is infrastructure strictly related to the Borg's own home galaxy, they don't exist in the SW galaxy so you can't really use that as an advantage.
Scanning technology does exist during hyperspace. It's sort of impossible for the hyperdrive safety cutout (the one that drops a ship from hyperspace if it gets too close to a large mass) to work if it couldn't detect mass in hyperspace in the first place.
Alright, so they're going to fly around and take planets. You think they're not going to be detected, no patrol is going to report them, no one is going to call for help if they're attacked, etc? And good luck trying to find planets of any importance, given it takes around 70 years for their warp drive to go across a galactic quadrant. Given the speed of hyperdrive, there'll be a welcoming party for them before they even get to their destination. See, that is one major thing that goes against the Borg here - the Empire can reinforce at will, while the Borg's going at a snail's pace.
I'm not calling the Empire gods, I am just pointing out that they have a massive speed advantage here. It's insurmountable. The only reason the Rebels defeated the Empire is because not only do they have the same technological level, but the Rebel Alliance stated to become a serious threat later on because more and more systems rallied to them. It was a civil war. It was only Palpatine's arrogance, internal in-fighting and the Skywalker factor that caused their eventual downfall. That is an entirely different kettle of fish when discussing an outside, external threat like the Borg. There'd be no Rebel Alliance, the galaxy would unite together against the Borg. Force sensitive beings, instead of being killed, will be trained and used in battle. Borg drones are pathetic enough (killed by unarmoured crew members, Worf in melee, 20th century weapons)... just imagine what a Jedi or Sith can do to them.
Of course, no one person knows everything so even if they do manage to capture a hyperdrive physicist, that doesn't necessarily imply they will be able to get over the engineering and technological hurdles. Give Leonardo DaVinci the plans of a F-35 fighter, he is not going to be able to build one. The Borg have been so successful because they have assimilated billions and billions of sentient beings, all that collective knowledge can be used. Capturing a few random scientists on a backwater planet doesn't mean they're going to have the keys. They're going to have to capture a heavily populated planet, or a R&D facility, to even begin doing what you have describe.
As for further range, source? Borg weapons might be impressive against someone like the Federation, against for someone much more technologically advanced? Different story.
You say the Empire lose but you offer absolutely nothing to counter the Empire's speed, logistical and industrial capacity. This is not the Federation they're dealing with (which they couldn't even defeat in the first place), this is a galactic spanning Empire that's geared for war. Starkiller base demonstrates precisely why the Borg are outmatched - the Borg have no defence against hyper-drive weapons that can destroy entire systems, the power levels required for something like that (or the death star) is something the Borg have never been up against (unless you include S8472). Build such weapons en-masse, send them out to a corner of the galaxy and use them against Borg infrastructure. It'll take years for the Borg to even reach the places firing them, they'd just be constantly moving. It'd be like you trying to catch the last train from the station after you see it leaving at full speed... except exponentially greater.
Until you refute these obvious discrepancies, it's laughable to suggest the Borg would win in a full-on war. It's the same silly arguments - no-limit fallacy when it comes to assimilation, assuming the Empire is going to sit on its ass doing nothing while the Borg invade its territory, etc all without addressing important points such as logistics, speed, battle tactics, etc.
@mcroyalewithcheese: there ships have no shields and there weapon systems are all lazers hell starwars measurements for speed isn't even a real measurement one borg cube could just set in front of the deathstar with shields up and do nothing else and would be fine and the simplest attack would completely destroy the any ship it is directed at.
Not sure you're trolling here or have absolutely zero knowledge about the SW universe.
1. Starkiller Base is First Order, not Galactic Empire.
2. As per rules, we use the combatants as they were whenever the thread was made. 4 years and 10 months ago, the EU was still intact. That said, if you really wanna stretch it, the Galactic Empire has things like the Sun Crusher and Galaxy Gun which the Sun Crusher completely blows away the Starkiller Base, being able to destroy entire solar systems by destroying the star of said system, causing it to supernova.
Of course even if you don't count post ROTJ Empire, it still has some deadly superweapons anyway, the Death Stars, Superlaser Star Destroyers(yes the SSD Eclipse wasn't the first one folks) which can crack apart moons and reportedly destroy planets too, World Devastators(these were in the making during the GCW so technically they should be usable) and some others.
@nfactor1995 said:
@mcroyalewithcheese: What makes you think the Borg can't beam through their shields?
Because shields stop matter from going through. This is demonstrated time and time again in the show. The Borg couldn't beam through the Enterprise's shields, what makes you think they're going to beam through the shields of a more advanced civ?
1. Starkiller Base is First Order, not Galactic Empire.
2. As per rules, we use the combatants as they were whenever the thread was made. 4 years and 10 months ago, the EU was still intact. That said, if you really wanna stretch it, the Galactic Empire has things like the Sun Crusher and Galaxy Gun which the Sun Crusher completely blows away the Starkiller Base, being able to destroy entire solar systems by destroying the star of said system, causing it to supernova.
Of course even if you don't count post ROTJ Empire, it still has some deadly superweapons anyway, the Death Stars, Superlaser Star Destroyers(yes the SSD Eclipse wasn't the first one folks) which can crack apart moons and reportedly destroy planets too, World Devastators(these were in the making during the GCW so technically they should be usable) and some others.
1) The First Order are an off-shoot of the galactic empire, even a remnant if you will. They are considerably of smaller size and industrial capacity. They still use the same tech base. Tech in the SW universe is relatively stagnant - the events between ROTJ and TFA is only a few decades so there is really nothing to suggest the Empire would not be able to make a weapon like that. Though I'd argue in terms of power generation (being able to absorb entire suns or potentially moving them without being destroyed) is a more impressive technological achievement.
2) I am only trying to use current canon - using the EU would make this even more lopsided. Like Palpatine's Force storms, let's see the Borg fleets 'adapt' to that!
@mcroyalewithcheese: Meh fair I guess, though given the rules and date of the thread, EU is more suited here. But do what you will I guess, the EU GE is just a lot better than the current Canon one. More info helps in this case.
Borg
Weak shields? You mean the shields of the Enterprise, the flagship of the Federation?
Yes, weak shields. Comparatively weak compared to Imperial vessels. The Enterprise had more of an emphasis on exploration and science, rather than war.
When it comes to tactics the Borg do actually demonstrate very good tactics in all-out war. If they launched a war against the Empire, it wouldn't just be a Borg Cube rushing around and murdering Star Wars ships. It would be small scout tactics, scooping up Imperial Outposts from the farthest parts of the galaxy, sneaking around, picking up technology and new life forms, adding more to their collective and building up their forces as much as they could in secret. This is how the Borg waged war against the federation, they even went as far as determining that they could get the Federation to surrender if they had an emissary like Locutus. Those are some prime tactics, though I will admit on the short-term, they don't adapt well, individually they are weak, on ground tactics they would need to build an entire strategy before a single offensive swipe across the galaxy. The real key to Borg tactics are assimilate as many people as you can on the fringes of Civilization, gather their technology, determine their advancement, incorporate that technology into their own-they didn't change much upon incorporating Federation technology since the Federation's technology was generally inferior to their own. If the Borg went up against Star Wars, and you argue that Star Wars are a superior civilization with superior technology and a higher level of advancement, the Borg would assimilate that technology, not just the people, and in general, that is part of what makes them incredibly dangerous.
That's not a cop-out, I'm just saying it makes logical sense their shields should be able to deflect lasers. Lasers and phasers are both energy, and the Borg shields have only even shown vulnerability to physical impacts-ie bullets.
Good tactics? Come on, be specific. Show examples from the shows. On-screen we see the Borg continually show tactical ineptness, like sending one cube at a time, in a beeline. Borg drones are even more of a joke.
Again, I keep on reading this how the Borg would go about it. "Scooping up Imperial outposts". This is of the assumption that these outposts wouldn't send out a warning, they'd sit back and do nothing. Even far-flung outposts have hyperdrive capable ships. It's not like they're completely isolated, they still have FTL communication abilities. Assimilation isn't an instant quick-fix except for obviously inferior technological civs.
SW weaponry aren't even true lasers, and regardless if the Borg can deflect energy, given enough energy into a system and it'll be overwhelmed. A good example of this is in First Contact, when despite adapting, the Borg still took damage. I will try and find more examples of this if you'd like.
Something something something the enemy of the enemy is my friend
Quarrels will be put aside if there's an existential threat.
I recall the events in Traitor I was simply making a point of the claims. While assimilation has its limits, those limits are, they can't assimilate a people who can destroy them instantaneously. If you want to argue Super Star Destroyers could obliterate Borg Cubes and Spheres, that's part of why the Borg don't go up against the biggest heaviest hitters first, they pick off the small fish, building themselves up, then go in for the full attack. Part of the reason the Borg had such trouble with assimilating S8472 was because they were entirely biological, something completely alien to the Borg, they couldn't comprehend how to even begin incorporating the technology of a nation who's technology is made up of biology.
You don't have to destroy the Borg instantaneously to see that there are limitations. For example, an excessive amount of energy. It was not just S8472's biology that was a problem, their weapons just had so much energy that they couldn't really adapt to something like that (even if they were non-biological). The ultimate proof lies in Federation vessels still being able to damage the Borg (albeit to a more limited extent) even after adaptation. Otherwise, you have ridiculous claims suggesting a Borg cube can shrug off death star blasts just because they "adapted" to Imperial weapons. Which is ridiculous on its face, seeing as the Borg were unable to assimilate Data.
I actually know that scientist and his statements on Civilization Types, he simply never expanded on why Star Wars is a Type III Civilization in the statements I saw, thanks for the link though, that clarifies things perfectly well. Though I should point out that while they're capable of that level of energy output, that's in the situation of the Death Star alone.
He states it quite plainly at 0:55.
The death star isn't the only object. Imagine the power requirements for all their ships and all their planets, planetary shields, etc? Alderaan's shield resisted the full power of a death star blast, even only for a split second.
Well yes, no shit. The bulk of the Borg fleet consists of cubes. They have to build them from something. They have to if they're going to recoup their losses from a war.
and if they have to build new ships there wont be a problem thx to assimilation (they can modify conquered ships on the fly) or replicator technology
What they do with the Delta quadrant matters a lot, because it shows their territory/projection of power. If they can't even dominate their entire region, then their power projection is a lot weaker than a galactic spanning Empire.
nope it doesnt matter
you cant compare their situation with the empire - the borg do not "randomly" assimilate civilisations - they search for more advanced species to assimilate so they can improve themselves
but this is a direct confrontation against the empire
It would be nice if you actually said what cis/pis even stands for.
Well, the Borg didn't destroy them. They got routed by a lesser civilisation time and time again, who are considerably weaker than the Borg. That matters a lot when matching them up against more powerful civs.
Because the Borg are idiots. And that is one of their weaknesses... a hive mind have no creative thinking, no out-of-the-box ideas. That's why they send out one cube at a time, instead of an armada.
Time travel doesn't work like that. It'd make an alternate timeline. And they tried time travel before; didn't work out for them.
pis/cis: here is a good explanation
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/pis-and-cis-rulefair-rule-or-a-rule-being-abused-597535/
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These are terms commonly used on battle forums on other sites and most of us know what they mean. For those who don’t, PIS is “plot induced stupidity” and CIS is “character induced stupidity”. PIS/”jobbing” is when a character loses for the sake of plot despite the fact that they should be able to win. CIS is when a character loses because an aspect of the character (usually a lack of intelligence) gets in his own way. Superman losing to Batman would be PIS is most cases since Superman is perfectly capable of beating Batman in a number of ways before he can react. Sandman losing to Spider-Man is CIS because Sandman isn’t all that smart so Spider-Man, who is less powerful and should be easy to beat, can outsmart him and find victory.
Determining what is done for the plot and what is done because of the characters involved can be hard for some people. Superman is a prime case. In comics, Superman rarely uses his speed offensively. This is done for plot, to prolong the story and make it interesting (though it can also be said that it's a part of his character and not done solely because it benefits the story). In comics, Superman doesn’t kill. He does not spare his enemies because of the plot, he spares them because it’s part of his character not to kill thanks to how he was raised. In battles on the forum we include CIS, but not PIS, so Superman uses his speed but generally doesn’t kill unless otherwise stated. (“Bloodlust”)
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the only examples of the borg losing are against picard/janeway.... - what should have happened in your opinion? TNG ends season 2 because the borg successfully assimilated them? (btw they only survived because Q saved them :P and basically he made the federation aware of the borg, so the could prepare for a future encounter) - or voyager ends because the got one shotted by the borg? (as it should have happend :P)
nope - theres only one instance where time travel created another dimension and thats in the new movie were nero/spock traveled through an artifical black hole. in other instances time travel had influence/changed or would have changed the acutal time line
proof eg: The City on the Edge of Forever (TOS), Time's Arrow (TNG), Yesterday's Enterprise (TNG), All Good Things... (TNG), Past Tense (DS9), Children of Time (DS9),Times Orphan (DS9), Time and Time again (VOY), Futures End (VOY), Timeless (VOY), Relativity (VOY), First Contact (TNG Movie)
That's just an assumption, nothing more. You've zero basis to say that, apart from a silly no-limits fallacy. The Borg aren't Q. They couldn't even assimilate Data. We can clearly see that S8472 vessels do considerable damage to Borg ships, illustrating that too much firepower can punch through any defences they have.
Source?
They're called shields. You can't beam through them. And even if the Borg beam on, then what? Is the ship garrison just going to let them do it? Borg drones show as much tactical creativity as a used teabag, that easily get beaten by unarmoured Federation crewmates. Even Worf, in melee, easily dispatches them. Look how easy Picard mows them down with a primitive 20th century gun in First Contact. Oh, are you going to ignore that too 'cos 'plot armour'?
Right, because every ship is going to have all the technological expertise and top level secrets? Not to mention the fact that not all the computers are going to be linked together, ship systems in SW are compartmentalised. The Borg getting a computer terminal (assuming they're not blown up in the process) doesn't mean they're magically going to have access to everything.
Source?
No, my argument is based on established figures, capabilities and tactics. The Borg are stupid, and their ships can still be damaged even if adapted to enemy fire. You can call it "plot protection" all you want, but you can't ignore evidence just because it's inconvenient to you. Hell, at one point the Federation had a chance to wipe out the Borg entirely, but somehow a galactic Empire many times more advanced than the Federation can't do this? That doesn't even make any sense. It's Borg-wankery, nothing more. Try to be objective.
It's funny that you don't even address the number, speed and logistical discrepancy. That's the meat and potatoes of this match-up. If you don't have an argument for that, then there's no point discussing this further. Really, all the Empire needs to do is launch hyperdrive-capable weapons that can destroy planets from a remote corner of the galaxy where the Borg can't even get to because without transwarp complexes, their FTL tech is pathetically slow.
there is no nlf . its FACT that the borg couldnt assimilate 8472 because of their biology.
the shields have no feats of stoppinig a transporter beam - so you have to show feats were they protect against it and since the have no feats they have no protection.
of course the can kill the borg when they enter the ships but they wont kill all of them before they assimilate someone. they dont teleport to the most populated decks/sections as seen in first contact. its easy for them to hide from internal sensors and once the assimilation starts it is to late.
source for what? assimilate future technology? one voy
they dont need your "top level" secrets - they assimilate and thats enough
you base everything on "borg lost against federaton trololol" yeah surprise - the enemy loses against the hero...... wow
btw: ewoks > empire by your logic lol
@nfactor1995 said:
@mcroyalewithcheese: What makes you think the Borg can't beam through their shields?
Because shields stop matter from going through. This is demonstrated time and time again in the show. The Borg couldn't beam through the Enterprise's shields, what makes you think they're going to beam through the shields of a more advanced civ?
good for the shields that the stop matter from going through....... doesnt help against a transporter beam
without alterration of the shields frequence the borg have no problem to beam or walk through shields...... as seen in a lot of episodes...
but since the empire shields have no feats to protect them against transporters....
You seem like someone who knows a lot about Star Wars but knows very little about Star Trek so I am going to help you out here.
This is the canon article about Borg Transwarp: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Transwarp_drive . As it states Borg ships are able to generate their own transwarp conduit and don't require a hub to do so. So the speed advantage you keep talking about isn't anywhere near as vast as you think it is.
Also, you keep saying that the Borg cannot transport through shields: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Borg_cube if you scroll down to the tactical systems section you can read that they transport through active shields multiple times, so again your wrong.
Yes a single person would give the Borg a vast amount of information about the technology in the galaxy. Little kids like Anakin are able to build and program droids (granted he was more gifted than others) so you could assimilate a child and get vast amounts of data. Almost every backwater planet scene in every movie shows huge piles of ship parts which is another easy place to get tech. You don't have to have specifically a Star Destroyer engine or turbo laser, you just need something similar based on a similar design. If say a leftover piece of an A-wing has weapons that are based on the same science as a star destroyer turbo-laser, you at least now have the knowledge in the same field which will make it infinitely easier to narrow down variations needed to adapt vs starting at square one.
Also, the Empire doesn't span the ENTIRE galaxy, it controls a large portion of maybe 2/3 of the galaxy. Every map of the Star Wars galaxy shows HUGE chunks of unknown space, so in reality the Empire controls at most half of their galaxy.
Staying on the lines that there is huge unknown parts of the galaxy in the SW universe, who is to say that the Borg don't start there and get tech from there?
You also don't know and thus can't say that there would be no Rebel Alliance and that they would all of a sudden have a kumbaya moment and all fight against the Empire. They would possible be just as likely to see the Borg as a benefit depending on the time of the attack. If the Empire is focusing on the Borg, then the Rebels would be more free to do as they pleased. As you stated the enemy of my enemy is my friend, which is just as true the other way.
I would assume that since there are a lot of smugglers on the backwater planets that they would all have a very in depth idea of how hyperdrive works, since they are in the smuggling profession. You wouldn't be a very good smuggler if you ship broke down in the middle of nowhere and you didn't have any clue how to fix it.
Lets also take the newest movie as an example. The base where a lot of the Death Star research is being done did not show any shield, did not show a huge compliment of troops, did not show a large fleet of ships protecting it. This shows how easy it would be to get the Empire tech. It is plausible that assimilating any of the scientist from that facility would give the Borg any and all tech related to the Death Star thus giving them the ability to adapt to the Death Star before the thing has even fired yet.
I have said many things that counter the Empires industrial speed. The loss of a planet to the Borg is the loss of industrial capacity of the Empire. The Borg don't have to fight a huge space battle to disrupt the Empire's industrial ability. If they create enough chaos on the planet then that planet essentially shuts down or is slowed down to a point they are not effective. The Borg don't need to have a manufacturing base like the Empire, their nanoprobes are the manufacturing. They take the matter that is already there and re-arrange it to suit the need at the time.
You keep stating that the Borg have not been able to conquer the Federation, but they have never really tried. They sent one ship at a time to try and assimilate them. For all we know this is a purposeful Borg tactic. They send a ship to Federation space, get the Federation all up in a tissy so then the Federation spends the following years until a true invasion building ships and technology specifically to combat the Borg. By doing so, the Borg gain that much more technology and biological diversity in doing so. The Borg essentially don't age due to their nanoprobes constantly regenerating the cells of the drones so they would be in it for the long haul.
You want range numbers on the weapons then here are the turbolasers from the first Death Star and from the Star Destroyers: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/XX-9_heavy_turbolaser they have a max range of 100km
@mcroyalewithcheese: I wasn't trying to be a smart ass with the knowing more about SW than ST comment. I am the opposite, I know more about ST than SW. I have not read any of the EU stuff for SW so my knowledge is limited to the movies and tv series.
Yes, weak shields. Comparatively weak compared to Imperial vessels. The Enterprise had more of an emphasis on exploration and science, rather than war.
Just because they have a focus on exploration doesn't mean they aren't built for battle. The focus on exploration comes with the knowledge that they may go to war, in fact during times of war the Enterprise has been the Flagship of the Federation. In the terms of Warhammer, a Nekron exploration vessel can easily wipe out war-based ships from the Imperium.
Good tactics? Come on, be specific. Show examples from the shows. On-screen we see the Borg continually show tactical ineptness, like sending one cube at a time, in a beeline. Borg drones are even more of a joke.
That wasn't actually tactical ineptness, it would've succeeded had humanity not found their Achilles Heel.
And I did show off tactics, their ability to wage psychological warfare against humanity by adopting Locutus, their scouting capabilities, just because they don't have complex Thrawn-level tactics doesn't mean they can't possibly have some kind of tactics.
Again, I keep on reading this how the Borg would go about it. "Scooping up Imperial outposts". This is of the assumption that these outposts wouldn't send out a warning, they'd sit back and do nothing. Even far-flung outposts have hyperdrive capable ships. It's not like they're completely isolated, they still have FTL communication abilities. Assimilation isn't an instant quick-fix except for obviously inferior technological civs.
And what is sending out a warning going to do? Any ships they send out will be caught by the Borg Cube, trapped, etc... and it still takes time to reach an Imperial Outpost. How many times have Imperials arrived at an outpost that is 'under attack' to find it completely gone? Star Trek has FTL communications too, didn't help colonists at all when they were taken off the map.
SW weaponry aren't even true lasers, and regardless if the Borg can deflect energy, given enough energy into a system and it'll be overwhelmed. A good example of this is in First Contact, when despite adapting, the Borg still took damage. I will try and find more examples of this if you'd like.
Ok, now prove that Star Wars blasters have that amount of energy. There's no way to prove it one way or the other unless you can point out exact energy output of both phasers and blasters, but of course that's hard since fictional universes almost never give exact numbers.
Quarrels will be put aside if there's an existential threat.
Yes, yes they will, I wasn't saying you were wrong, I'm just naturally snarky.
You don't have to destroy the Borg instantaneously to see that there are limitations. For example, an excessive amount of energy. It was not just S8472's biology that was a problem, their weapons just had so much energy that they couldn't really adapt to something like that (even if they were non-biological). The ultimate proof lies in Federation vessels still being able to damage the Borg (albeit to a more limited extent) even after adaptation. Otherwise, you have ridiculous claims suggesting a Borg cube can shrug off death star blasts just because they "adapted" to Imperial weapons. Which is ridiculous on its face, seeing as the Borg were unable to assimilate Data.
Yes, this is true, and why do you automatically assume Star Wars has that level of power? I never said the Borg are infinite, but you're trying to use a civilization that crushed them as an argument for why the Empire can do the same with no relation to how the two compare in power or capabilities. Your argument is the equivalent of I can use a diamon-tipped saw to cut through stone, therefore stone is capable of being cut and I can cut it with a pair of scissors.
The Federation were able to damage Borg ships due to adjusting their frequency, not due to power output.
I never claimed a Borg Cube can adapt to Death Star Blasts. I'm claiming they can adapt to a Star Destroyer.
What does being unable to assimilate a synthetic life form have to do with their ability to wage war?
He states it quite plainly at 0:55.
The death star isn't the only object. Imagine the power requirements for all their ships and all their planets, planetary shields, etc? Alderaan's shield resisted the full power of a death star blast, even only for a split second.
I mean unless you can point to the exact power level I don't think any of them, even planetary shields, are star-level in power requirements.
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