Fight Takes Place On Apokolips
One Week Prep/Combined Resources
No Morals/To Death
Thanos, Darkseid, Brainiac and Anit-Monitor vs The Phoenix Force
I say Team 1, but that could just be me.
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Anti Monitor absorbs the phoenix force. Don't know if that counts as dead but, the team with prep should be able to come up with something useful.
@Killemall said:
Stalemate.
Fight is to the death, on one side we have The Phoenix Force that cannot die, on the other we have thanos who cannot die.
How are two being who cant die fighting to death every going to conclude?
The PF can be shattered and/or devoured , even if it can't be killed . All that the team needs to do is borrow that Shi'ar laser cannon . Or else let the Anti-Monitor pull off another Goblin Entity on the PF .
@Hyper_God said:
The PF can be shattered and/or devoured , even if it can't be killed .
No it cannot, it has been stated on panel that Phoenix Force cannot die, and hence the name phoenix force (as in the bird that rises from the ashes).
All that the team needs to do is borrow that Shi'ar laser cannon .
Shi'ar cannon has affected only an avatar of phoenix force while it was unbound (without a host, and in the weakest condition). One it gets a host the only thing that can be killed is the host, avatar themselves cannot be killed. Furthermore, Phoenix force can bring back their host from the dead as they did to Jean Gray during Endsong saga.
Or else let the Anti-Monitor pull off another Goblin Entity on the PF .
Goblin Force has been stated to be equal in power with Phoenix Force without any feats to verify the claim. And even if you buy that one sentence stated in comics with 0 proof to back it up. Also just to make it clear, goblin force consumed an avatar of the Phoenix and we know there are millions of avatars of the phoenix force, doesnt answer the question that i raised, it has expressely stated that phoenix force cannot die and we have seen no evidence to the contrary, unless you know something that i dont (of course i am by no means a phoenix force expert, i however have had a chance of debating with Kingofallhumans, who is an expert).
@Killemall said:
@Hyper_God said:
The PF can be shattered and/or devoured , even if it can't be killed .
No it cannot, it has been stated on panel that Phoenix Force cannot die, and hence the name phoenix force (as in the bird that rises from the ashes).
Wrong . Xorn's emp killed Jean , and the force was affected as well . And read my entire post , especially the part "even if it can't be killed ." Here's the scan which confirms : http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/4225596/pfbillioncl9.jpg.html
All that the team needs to do is borrow that Shi'ar laser cannon .
Shi'ar cannon has affected only an avatar of phoenix force while it was unbound (without a host, and in the weakest condition). One it gets a host the only thing that can be killed is the host, avatar themselves cannot be killed. Furthermore, Phoenix force can bring back their host from the dead as they did to Jean Gray during Endsong saga.
Prove that it was in a weak condition . Also , the Force almost always manifests itself in the physical plane as a firebird , or a raptor . So , what you mean by the statement "it was only an avatar of phoenix force" makes no sense .
Here are the scans to prove my point : http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1807411/pf2rm9.jpg.html
Phoenix managed to escape , but it was badly injured , and THAT'S what weakened it .
"But its at a fraction of its original strength. We can easily-"
Yet , the next comment seems to imply that it was still very formidable :
"What's a fraction of infinity , Helmsman?"
Here's the scan : http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1807413/pf5oq4.jpg.html
Or else let the Anti-Monitor pull off another Goblin Entity on the PF .
Goblin Force has been stated to be equal in power with Phoenix Force without any feats to verify the claim. And even if you buy that one sentence stated in comics with 0 proof to back it up. Also just to make it clear, goblin force consumed an avatar of the Phoenix and we know there are millions of avatars of the phoenix force, doesnt answer the question that i raised, it has expressely stated that phoenix force cannot die and we have seen no evidence to the contrary, unless you know something that i dont (of course i am by no means a phoenix force expert, i however have had a chance of debating with Kingofallhumans, who is an expert).
The only feat that the GE needs is the one in which it devoured the PF . Also , technically , it should be stronger than the PF , since it "added its already immense power to its own" . As far as proof goes , this scan should be enough . This is a Watcher's recollection , and last I checked , their records are generally infallible . Here's the scan : http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080205001028/marveldatabase/images/thumb/f/f7/Mutant_X_Vol_1_12_004.jpg/548px-Mutant_X_Vol_1_12_004.jpg
Also , as I mentioned , the PF doesn't need to be killed for it to be defeated . It can be absorbed or devoured, and can even be shattered . Although , as far as the phoenix's "unkillability" is concerned , the following scans seem to suggest otherwise(not implying that the phoenix died in these scenarios):http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/11817126/AS2.jpg.htmlhttp://www.turboimagehost.com/p/11817129/AS3.jpg.html
Also , I presume , you meant "LordOfAllHumans" ? While you may consider him an expert , I don't . He has shown time and again in his posts , that he is a biased Phoenix fanboy , claiming that its power is greater than classic IG , and that the phoenix can stalemate the Living Tribunal , with all sorts of hypothesis , speculations , opinions , and no scans to back up any of it . At least lord_oraculous(another phoenix fanboy) , uses scans(even if he takes them out of context , and misinterprets them on occasion) .
@Hyper_God said:
Wrong . Xorn's emp killed Jean , and the force was affected as well . And read my entire post , especially the part "even if it can't be killed ." Here's the scan which confirms : http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/4225596/pfbillioncl9.jpg.html
You should know that phoenix force as a whole is an abstract being with one incarnation of it in every universe, and multiple avatars in ever given universe. Because of lack of scan i am just going to give you a wiki link, http://marvel.wikia.com/Phoenix_Force_%28Earth-616%29, i know thats by far the WORST proof someone can give but well at least i tried :p.
Prove that it was in a weak condition . Also , the Force almost always manifests itself in the physical plane as a firebird , or a raptor . So , what you mean by the statement "it was only an avatar of phoenix force" makes no sense .
For someone who seem to know Phoenix is asking me this question? Phoenix is at its weakest when unbound, and you know what it says expressely this few scans later on the same issue you are giving me the scans from.
It was and it is an avatar of Phoenix. Living Tribunal itself has confirmed Phoenix being and omniversal entity, avatar of which are scattered across the universe and every universe has a multiple avatars of Phoenix. So why does it not make sense?
Phoenix managed to escape , but it was badly injured , and THAT'S what weakened it .
Yet , the next comment seems to imply that it was still very formidable :
"What's a fraction of infinity , Helmsman?"
Here's the scan : http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1807413/pf5oq4.jpg.html
Avatar of Phoenix force itself have unlimited power as time and again proven by Rachel grey and Jean Grey. So its power was still formidable but it wasstill a fraction of the power as a whole who isnt even the actual Phoenix force in the entirety.
The only feat that the GE needs is the one in which it devoured the PF . Also , technically , it should be stronger than the PF , since it "added its already immense power to its own" . As far as proof goes , this scan should be enough . This is a Watcher's recollection , and last I checked , their records are generally infallible . Here's the scan : http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080205001028/marveldatabase/images/thumb/f/f7/Mutant_X_Vol_1_12_004.jpg/548px-Mutant_X_Vol_1_12_004.jpg
Firstly no Watcher words are not as infallible as you are making out to be, if so Watcher themselves have said Phoenix Force is only second to the creator (TOAA, well technically it was Nemesis who created Marvel Universe and well giant hand of fate that created Dc universe Krona created the multiverse, but we generally refer to supreme beings as creators)that would imply it was more powerful than the living tribunal, do you really wanna argue that??
Secondly can you not see the scan, phoenix force appears as a flamebird without a physical host in it, which means the force is unbound and at its weakest. Its simple logic.
Also , as I mentioned , the PF doesn't need to be killed for it to be defeated .
No it has to be killed, here's the OPread it:
@The_Soverighn said:
Fight Takes Place On Apokolips
One Week Prep/Combined Resources
No Morals/To Death
It can be absorbed or devoured, and can even be shattered . Although , as far as the phoenix's "unkillability" is concerned , the following scans seem to suggest otherwise(not implying that the phoenix died in these scenarios):http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/11817126/AS2.jpg.htmlhttp://www.turboimagehost.com/p/11817129/AS3.jpg.html
Again an avatar and not the entire phoenix force, specially an unbound avatar, and that once killed it has the ability to come back to life.
Also , I presume , you meant "LordOfAllHumans" ? While you may consider him an expert , I don't . He has shown time and again in his posts , that he is a biased Phoenix fanboy , claiming that its power is greater than classic IG , and that the phoenix can stalemate the Living Tribunal , with all sorts of hypothesis , speculations , opinions , and no scans to back up any of it . At least lord_oraculous(another phoenix fanboy) , uses scans(even if he takes them out of context , and misinterprets them on occasion) .
- Yes thats whom i meant.
- Based on last few arguments i had he seemed to be an expert although we could never come to an agreement on Spectre vs Phoenix Force, i still think Spectre is more powerful.
- Phoenix is < LT, but > IG, specially the IG thats there today. The one that appeared during Infinity Gauntlet before the whole Black September Arc was much more powerful than phoenix.
- I would assume not posting a scan is better than distorting the fact, dont you think.
@Killemall said:
Wrong . Xorn's emp killed Jean , and the force was affected as well . And read my entire post , especially the part "even if it can't be killed ." Here's the scan which confirms :http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/4225596/pfbillioncl9.jpg.html
You should know that phoenix force as a whole is an abstract being with one incarnation of it in every universe, and multiple avatars in ever given universe. Because of lack of scan i am just going to give you a wiki link, http://marvel.wikia.com/Phoenix_Force_%28Earth-616%29, i know thats by far the WORST proof someone can give but well at least i tried :p.
I know all of that . Just in this case , it was clearly shown that the force ITSELF had that recollection . So , in this regard you're wrong .
Prove that it was in a weak condition . Also , the Force almost always manifests itself in the physical plane as a firebird , or a raptor . So , what you mean by the statement "it was only an avatar of phoenix force" makes no sense .
For someone who seem to know Phoenix is asking me this question? Phoenix is at its weakest when unbound, and you know what it says expressely this few scans later on the same issue you are giving me the scans from.
It was and it is an avatar of Phoenix. Living Tribunal itself has confirmed Phoenix being and omniversal entity, avatar of which are scattered across the universe and every universe has a multiple avatars of Phoenix. So why does it not make sense?
Living Tribunal never confirmed any such thing . The only time they met each other on-panel they conversed with each other , in which it was IMPLIED that the Tribunal wouldn't allow the PF to get a human host , to which the PF conceded for the sake of the world . If the LT did indeed imply such a thing(phoenix being an omniversal entity) , then show me a scan . I have seen the original scan , and the LT implied nothing of the sort you have claimed .
Phoenix managed to escape , but it was badly injured , and THAT'S what weakened it .
Yet , the next comment seems to imply that it was still very formidable :
"What's a fraction of infinity , Helmsman?"
Here's the scan :http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1807413/pf5oq4.jpg.html
Avatar of Phoenix force itself have unlimited power as time and again proven by Rachel grey and Jean Grey. So its power was still formidable but it wasstill a fraction of the power as a whole who isnt even the actual Phoenix force in the entirety.
Don't really understand how this refutes anything written in my post .
The only feat that the GE needs is the one in which it devoured the PF . Also , technically , it should be stronger than the PF , since it "added its already immense power to its own" . As far as proof goes , this scan should be enough . This is a Watcher's recollection , and last I checked , their records are generally infallible . Here's the scan :http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080205001028/marveldatabase/images/thumb/f/f7/Mutant_X_Vol_1_12_004.jpg/548px-Mutant_X_Vol_1_12_004.jpg
Firstly no Watcher words are not as infallible as you are making out to be, if so Watcher themselves have said Phoenix Force is only second to the creator (TOAA, well technically it was Nemesis who created Marvel Universe and well giant hand of fate that created Dc universe Krona created the multiverse, but we generally refer to supreme beings as creators)that would imply it was more powerful than the living tribunal, do you really wanna argue that??
Secondly can you not see the scan, phoenix force appears as a flamebird without a physical host in it, which means the force is unbound and at its weakest. Its simple logic.
Considering that the MU has been made and remade by so many entities , going by the Watcher's statement , her power could be second to anyone from the Alien Entity to Sise-Neg to Nemesis . Also , even if the Creator in the Watcher's statement is alluded to being TOAA(which I doubt), that doesn't mean that PF is greater than the LT . All it implies is that at best , she is the Tribunal's equal . I would also like to clarify, that the statement regarding the Phoenix's power was only speculation on Uatu's part i.e a mere opinion which the Watcher believes but which may not necessarily be grounded in fact , while in this case(of the Goblin Entity) , it was a detailed recollection of an event that had already happened .
Also , the phoenix force isn't always weak without its host . It certainly didn't appear that way when it conversed with the LT .
No it has to be killed, here's the OPread it:
I did read the OP , I was only giving my opinion regarding the fact that it doesn't need to be killed in order to be defeated . Also if you are so fairly convinced that the PF is unkillable , then why make a thread in which the only way to beat it is to kill it ?
Again an avatar and not the entire phoenix force, specially an unbound avatar, and that once killed it has the ability to come back to life.
And again . I ask you to provide proof , in the form of scans , or a bio which relates to this specific issue , that this was only an avatar , not the force itself . Because , the comic itself seemed to very clearly imply that it was the force itself .
- Yes thats whom i meant.
- Based on last few arguments i had he seemed to be an expert although we could never come to an agreement on Spectre vs Phoenix Force, i still think Spectre is more powerful.
- Phoenix is < LT, but > IG, specially the IG thats there today. The one that appeared during Infinity Gauntlet before the whole Black September Arc was much more powerful than phoenix.
- I would assume not posting a scan is better than distorting the fact, dont you think.
You should know that when it comes to Phoenix , you can never agree with LOAH on at least some point or the other . In his mind , Phoenix might as well be TOAA herself . Or at least that's the impression I have acquired of him , based on the majority of his posts that I have read(among many other posters) , the past few months that I have been lurking here .
Yeah , I agree , the current IG has been put down a couple of paces below the Abstracts . Its alternate counterparts are even weaker, considering only four Earth-4280 Celestials were able to incapacitate an IG-wielder of the Council of Reeds(despite him activating his IG). That's why in my post , I specifically stated "Classic IG" .
Also , in your last statement , are you trying to imply that I distort facts ?
@Hyper_God said:
I know all of that . Just in this case , it was clearly shown that the force ITSELF had that recollection . So , in this regard you're wrong .
You know that force itself has been stated to be immortal and yet you are arguing with me that it can be killed o_O, strange.
Living Tribunal never confirmed any such thing . The only time they met each other on-panel they conversed with each other , in which it was IMPLIED that the Tribunal wouldn't allow the PF to get a human host , to which the PF conceded for the sake of the world . If the LT did indeed imply such a thing(phoenix being an omniversal entity) , then show me a scan . I have seen the original scan , and the LT implied nothing of the sort you have claimed .
I do not have the scan if i did i would have shown it to you a long time ago, but it is something that has happened on panel, however, since i do not have the scans or the issue number if you would like to dismiss it i dont really have much to argue about.
However just for argument sake how do you explain life being on pretty much every universe in the multiverse when Phoenix force is the fire of creation and as such has link to ever life in the omniverse.
Don't really understand how this refutes anything written in my post .
This doesnt refute what you said in the last post but refutes what you said earlier, just because someone with a fraction of PF's power can be killed doesnt automatically mean the power can itself be killed.
Considering that the MU has been made and remade by so many entities , going by the Watcher's statement , her power could be second to anyone from the Alien Entity to Sise-Neg to Nemesis . Also , even if the Creator in the Watcher's statement is alluded to being TOAA(which I doubt), that doesn't mean that PF is greater than the LT . All it implies is that at best , she is the Tribunal's equal . I would also like to clarify, that the statement regarding the Phoenix's power was only speculation on Uatu's part i.e a mere opinion which the Watcher believes but which may not necessarily be grounded in fact , while in this case(of the Goblin Entity) , it was a detailed recollection of an event that had already happened .
Also , the phoenix force isn't always weak without its host . It certainly didn't appear that way when it conversed with the LT .
Neither the Alien Entity nor Sise-Neg has ever stated to be the creator the only person who's ever acknowledge as the creator would be Nemesisas evident from Thanos Quest 2 and the entire Black September Arc. Also if PF is just below Nemesis or TOAA (say just below LT) this would mean it should curbstomp Anti-Monitor anyways, its not like he has any feats whatsoever to put him even at skyfather level.
Phoenix force is always weak without a host, its something that has been stated on panel and in the same issue where you are showing scans from.
I did read the OP , I was only giving my opinion regarding the fact that it doesn't need to be killed in order to be defeated . Also if you are so fairly convinced that the PF is unkillable , then why make a thread in which the only way to beat it is to kill it ?
So read the OP and you are saying phoenix force does not need to be killed to be beaten, how does that work exactly?
I am convienced that PF cant be killed and I DID NOT make the thread,The_Soverighndid. I stated exactly the same thing in my first post, since neither PF nor Thanos can die, it has to be a stalemate.
You should know that when it comes to Phoenix , you can never agree with LOAH on at least some point or the other . In his mind , Phoenix might as well be TOAA herself . Or at least that's the impression I have acquired of him , based on the majority of his posts that I have read(among many other posters) , the past few months that I have been lurking here .
Yeah , I agree , the current IG has been put down a couple of paces below the Abstracts . Its alternate counterparts are even weaker, considering only four Earth-4280 Celestials were able to incapacitate an IG-wielder of the Council of Reeds(despite him activating his IG). That's why in my post , I specifically stated "Classic IG" .
Also , in your last statement , are you trying to imply that I distort facts ?
I dont think a reply here is warrented because you arent disagreeing anything here and no i did not imply you are distoring the fact it was in response to your last statement,
At least lord_oraculous(another phoenix fanboy) , uses scans(even if he takes them out of context , and misinterprets them on occasion) .
in which case i strongly believe you are better off not showing a scan over showing a scans out of context because other people who see the scans and havent read the comics would get a wrong idea.
@Killemall said:
@Hyper_God said:
You know that force itself has been stated to be immortal and yet you are arguing with me that it can be killed o_O, strange.
I know all of that . Just in this case , it was clearly shown that the force ITSELF had that recollection . So , in this regard you're wrong .
I am doing nothing of the sort . That scan only shows the Phoenix having a recollection of "being shattered into billion billion pieces" . Where does it say that the Phoenix died ? Let me give you an example , the one in which Franklin Richards shattered Mephisto's essence and scattered it across several galaxies(or dimensions , that specific detail I don't remember clearly) . Now , in that very same arc , Dr Strange confirmed that Mephisto wasn't dead , and he would eventually reappear .
Another example would be how the T-1000 in Terminator 2 was solidified and then shattered . Its individual parts eventually re-merged with each to reform , right ? Was the T-1000 killed in this instance ?
All that I am saying is that , it isn't necessary to kill the Phoenix in order to defeat it . As I said it can be devoured or shattered , neither of which in this case imply that the PF is dead , as it is still existing , either within the entity which devoured , or as individual fragments of itself , which will over time reform .
Living Tribunal never confirmed any such thing . The only time they met each other on-panel they conversed with each other , in which it was IMPLIED that the Tribunal wouldn't allow the PF to get a human host , to which the PF conceded for the sake of the world . If the LT did indeed imply such a thing(phoenix being an omniversal entity) , then show me a scan . I have seen the original scan , and the LT implied nothing of the sort you have claimed .
I do not have the scan if i did i would have shown it to you a long time ago, but it is something that has happened on panel, however, since i do not have the scans or the issue number if you would like to dismiss it i dont really have much to argue about.
However just for argument sake how do you explain life being on pretty much every universe in the multiverse when Phoenix force is the fire of creation and as such has link to ever life in the omniverse.
I wasn't arguing here that the PF isn't omniversal , I was merely showing you that the LIVING TRIBUNAL NEVER made such a confirmation that you have attributed to it . And yes this particular claim of yours(that LT confirmed the PF's supposed omniversal status) I will dismiss , because I HAVE seen that scan(on Phoenix's respect thread on KMC) , and in that LT never made any such claim that you have attributed to it . While the Phoenix realized that "for the sake of the multiverse , it must heed the Tribunal's wishes" , the Tribunal itself never implied anything regarding the multiverse .Here is the said scan from "What If the X-Men lost Inferno" : http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2908/ltphoenix5jpg9ob.png
But , if you want to argue that the PF is indeed an omniversal entity , then can you tell whether or not it(or an avatar of itself) exist within our universe ? Or , the Harry Potter Universe ? Or the Twilight Universe ? Or the DC Universe ? Or the Image Comics Universe ? Because , according to definition of "omniverse" given by Marvel , all these universes also lie within the omniverse .
I am not arguing against the idea that the PF is an omniversal being , only that there is no on-panel evidence to indicate such a claim . At this point , it is only mere speculation by us fans .
This doesnt refute what you said in the last post but refutes what you said earlier, just because someone with a fraction of PF's power can be killed doesnt automatically mean the power can itself be killed.
Whether or not it refutes anything in my post is debatable . But , still even if it does refute the previous part of my post , why direct it towards another part of my post ? Doesn't such a tactis cause unnecessary confusion to the person you are discussing with ?
Neither the Alien Entity nor Sise-Neg has ever stated to be the creator the only person who's ever acknowledge as the creator would be Nemesisas evident from Thanos Quest 2 and the entire Black September Arc. Also if PF is just below Nemesis or TOAA (say just below LT) this would mean it should curbstomp Anti-Monitor anyways, its not like he has any feats whatsoever to put him even at skyfather level.
Phoenix force is always weak without a host, its something that has been stated on panel and in the same issue where you are showing scans from.
Actually yes , they would technically be considered the creator , since both traveled before the point of time , and both initiated the Big Bang , and both ended up creating the Marvel Actuality . Same goes for Insane Genis Vell as well (along with Entropy also possibly) . And no , PF isn't just below TOAA or Nemesis . Below LT , I agree . And you're greatly underestimating Anti-Monitor , especially COIE Anti-Monitor , by making such a strange claim that "its not like he has any feats whatsoever to put him even at skyfather level" . And don't try to argue that the OP didn't mean the COIE AM , since the OP hasn't indicated which versions of the character he/she is using ,
Here is the Anti-Monitor 's respect thread to show you just how powerful he really is : http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t442369.html
Also , can you refer which scan in particular that I showed , in which it was mentioned the PF was weak without a host ?
I'll admit that its vulnerable , as it becomes easier to target , but that doesn't necessarily mean that its weak .
So read the OP and you are saying phoenix force does not need to be killed to be beaten, how does that work exactly?
I am convienced that PF cant be killed and I DID NOT make the thread,The_Soverighndid. I stated exactly the same thing in my first post, since neither PF nor Thanos can die, it has to be a stalemate.
Please read my post again . I clearly stated that I did indeed read the OP , however , I merely gave an opinion regarding the fact that the PF doesn't need to be killed in order for it to be beaten . And this true , considering all the times it has been beaten in comics before , and as far as I recollect , in none of those instances was the PF killed .
As far as misidentifying you with the thread-starter , that's my bad , and I genuinely apologize if you were offended .
I dont think a reply here is warrented because you arent disagreeing anything here
I don't think you dictate the way or the manner in which I reply , just as I don't do to you . Anyways , a conversation in my book , isn't always about disagreeing with the person with whom you are conversing with.
and no i did not imply you are distoring the fact it was in response to your last statement,
At least lord_oraculous(another phoenix fanboy) , uses scans(even if he takes them out of context , and misinterprets them on occasion) .
in which case i strongly believe you are better off not showing a scan over showing a scans out of context because other people who see the scans and havent read the comics would get a wrong idea.
Taking the scan out of context or misinterpreting it isn't distorting the fact . Distorting a fact means that you are trying to deliberately lie to push forward your own personal agenda , however if you misinterpret a scan or take it out of context , that can imply that you are simply mistaken about something(in this case , a comic book page scan) or wrong about it , but it doesn't necessarily imply that you are a liar . Also the fact that someone is willing to go to the trouble of searching for scans to use in their argument shows that they are willing to use proof to back up their claims , instead of just giving empty statements or mere opinions .
@Hyper_God said:
I am doing nothing of the sort . That scan only shows the Phoenix having a recollection of "being shattered into billion billion pieces" . Where does it say that the Phoenix died ? Let me give you an example , the one in which Franklin Richards shattered Mephisto's essence and scattered it across several galaxies(or dimensions , that specific detail I don't remember clearly) . Now , in that very same arc , Dr Strange confirmed that Mephisto wasn't dead , and he would eventually reappear .
Another example would be how the T-1000 in Terminator 2 was solidified and then shattered . Its individual parts eventually re-merged with each to reform , right ? Was the T-1000 killed in this instance ?
All that I am saying is that , it isn't necessary to kill the Phoenix in order to defeat it . As I said it can be devoured or shattered , neither of which in this case imply that the PF is dead , as it is still existing , either within the entity which devoured , or as individual fragments of itself , which will over time reform .
Thats strange because our conversation began because i said Phoenix force on one side and thanos on the other side cannot die. Therefore, it has to be stalemate.
Whether or not it refutes anything in my post is debatable . But , still even if it does refute the previous part of my post , why direct it towards another part of my post ? Doesn't such a tactis cause unnecessary confusion to the person you are discussing with ?
ME : Phoenix force cannot be killed
You: *insert scan *, but claim power is formidable
Me: despite being formidal it clearly says its only a fraction of its true power and hence cannot be use to compare what would happen to Phoenix
And this is what you reply, i am lost now.
And you're greatly underestimating Anti-Monitor , especially COIE Anti-Monitor , by making such a strange claim that "its not like he has any feats whatsoever to put him even at skyfather level" . And don't try to argue that the OP didn't mean the COIE AM , since the OP hasn't indicated which versions of the character he/she is using ,
Here is the Anti-Monitor 's respect thread to show you just how powerful he really is : http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t442369.html
Also , can you refer which scan in particular that I showed , in which it was mentioned the PF was weak without a host ?
I'll admit that its vulnerable , as it becomes easier to target , but that doesn't necessarily mean that its weak .
Firstly i never said COIE AM is below skyfather, what i said was (THIS) Anti Monitor has no feats to put him above anti-monitor. Since the version is not stated in the battle, forum rules suggest we use the most recent incarnation or follow the scan. The AM in the scan is from Sinestro corps, so tell me what has THIS AM done to show he's above skyfather?? COIE is leagues above skyfather, i myself in the previous post told you that i believe Spectre > PF, COIE aM > Spectre > All skyfather combined, THIS AM has no feats.
The scan that you showed me of where Phoenix is harmed by the Shiar cannon, 3 pages later we see phoenix force itself saying i am too weak and need a human host, so either you are posting scans from issue that you have never read or are intentionally not acknowledging it.
Please read my post again . I clearly stated that I did indeed read the OP , however , I merely gave an opinion regarding the fact that the PF doesn't need to be killed in order for it to be beaten . And this true , considering all the times it has been beaten in comics before , and as far as I recollect , in none of those instances was the PF killed .
As far as misidentifying you with the thread-starter , that's my bad , and I genuinely apologize if you were offended .
Firstly i am not offended, you are genuinely debating with feats and logic why would i be.
Secondly, since you were the one who replied to me, could you show me WHEN have i said Phoenix Force wins? Lets re-quote my initial reply:
@Killemall said:
Stalemate.
Fight is to the death, on one side we have The Phoenix Force that cannot die, on the other we have thanos who cannot die.
How are two being who cant die fighting to death every going to conclude?
There.. See.
Taking the scan out of context or misinterpreting it isn't distorting the fact . Distorting a fact means that you are trying to deliberately lie to push forward your own personal agenda , however if you misinterpret a scan or take it out of context , that can imply that you are simply mistaken about something(in this case , a comic book page scan) or wrong about it , but it doesn't necessarily imply that you are a liar . Also the fact that someone is willing to go to the trouble of searching for scans to use in their argument shows that they are willing to use proof to back up their claims , instead of just giving empty statements or mere opinions .
Well there is nothing here that i disagree, so no comments :)
@Hyper_God said:
@Dex_Starr said:
AM devours the PF.
Tell that to Killemall . He seems to think that the Anti-Monitor lacks feats to put it even at the level of a skyfather .
Tell what to me? I said before and i am saying again (THIS) Anti-Monitor does have feats to put him even at skyfather level.
Team 1.
Phoenix Force.
Er...Anti-Monitor by himself is beyond the Phoenix Force.
Team DC watches as the Anti-Monitor literally consumes the Phoenix Force, belches and lies down for a cosmic nap.
@Killemall said:
ME : Phoenix force cannot be killed
You: *insert scan *, but claim power is formidable
Me: despite being formidal it clearly says its only a fraction of its true power and hence cannot be use to compare what would happen to Phoenix
And this is what you reply, i am lost now.
Reading Comprehension fail :
@Hyper_God said:
Here are the scans to prove my point : http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1807411/pf2rm9.jpg.html
Phoenix managed to escape , but it was badly injured , and THAT'S what weakened it .
"But its at a fraction of its original strength. We can easily-"
Yet , the next comment seems to imply that it was still very formidable :
"What's a fraction of infinity , Helmsman?"
Here's the scan : http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1807413/pf5oq4.jpg.html
@Killemall said:
@Hyper_God said:The scan that you showed me of where Phoenix is harmed by the Shiar cannon, 3 pages later we see phoenix force itself saying i am too weak and need a human host, so either you are posting scans from issue that you have never read or are intentionally not acknowledging it.
Again , read YOUR own post . The Force was weakened AFTER being harmed by the Shiar weapon .
@Killemall said:
@Hyper_God said:
Again , read YOUR own post . The Force was weakened AFTER being harmed by the Shiar weapon .Way to miss what i said, Force is weak without human host, an unbound phoenix force is weaker than a force bound properly with human host.
Nope , it isn't . Its VULNERABLE when not occupying a host . Not weak .
@Hyper_God said:
Nope , it isn't . Its VULNERABLE when not occupying a host . Not weak .
Well that is better explanation, its vulnerable when not occupying a host rather than weak. Makes more sense.
Also recently learned something interesting, Tom Brevoort certainly thinks Phoenix force can actually be killed and he's one of the Marvel's top editer. While asked he also said it has been killed twice, but recouperated later but still can be killed. Worst yet, he think skyfathers > phoenix force, so now i am totally lost. =(
@Killemall said:
@Hyper_God said:
Nope , it isn't . Its VULNERABLE when not occupying a host . Not weak .
Well that is better explanation, its vulnerable when not occupying a host rather than weak. Makes more sense.
Also recently learned something interesting, Tom Brevoort certainly thinks Phoenix force can actually be killed and he's one of the Marvel's top editer. While asked he also said it has been killed twice, but recouperated later but still can be killed. Worst yet, he think skyfathers > phoenix force, so now i am totally lost. =(
He was replying in the context of Thor's high showing against the Force in the early issues of AVX . He has a tendency to troll fanboys , especially when their questions pertain to the power level of their favorite characters . I wouldn't really take his opinion that seriously , seeing how he isn't writing those arcs , as far as the Phoenix VS Skyfather comparison is concerned .
AM consumes the PF
If its white Phoenix of the crown, ill take jean. Jean is in total control and they are one.
I imply that's COIE Anti-Moniter so he solos
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