Superman & Orion vs Shazam (Batson) & Black Adam

Superman & Orion

VS

Billy Batson & Black Adam

In character

Standard gear and abilities

Random encounter

Post Crisis and Post Flashpoint feats will apply for the characters

Fight takes place at an unpopulated, indestructible, Earthlike planet

Winner by KO, Incapacitation or Death

Who'd win? For what reasons?

Callouts:

Penny for your thoughts?

My orion knowledge is lacking but if he's below supes then I say team 2.

superman one hit KO braniac

Team 1.

@jiraiya_sageofoil: In sheer physical strength, Orion is a notch above Superman, and has fought him to a standstill and traded blows with Darkseid. His reaction speed is not on par even though he can pluck bullets out of the air while his back is turned to the shooter.

His real weapon is the Astro Force which he has stated can destroy planets and he has one-shotted Superman with it.

Leaning towards team 1 on this one.

Superman & Orion wins, no question.

Composite BA and Shazam? They got this.

Superman goes down first, and easily, he either gets blitzed with the speed of mercury + lightning fists, gets turned into stone or ping-pong table, or simply dies from magical lightnings, and then it becomes BA and Shazam vs Orion, they would take this, Shazam would even solo Orion, as he can simply amp his strength and durability via strength of atlas and power of zeus, and lay a smackdown on Orion.

Orion would put Shazam or Black Adam down almost every single time IMO. And then Sules either beats the other opponent or holds them off till the Orion comes and finishes him off.

How is he gonna put them down on his own? Shazam can amp his strength and durability to a degree that Orion would end up pretty wounded, and let's not the forget the fact that he is nearly as fast as Flash, and then has bunch of other abilities like spell casting, lightning manipulation, and matter manipulation. And he wouldn't put down BA, the guy in Pre-52 was busting many teams at the same time, was tanking hits from Superman without any damage, and was stalemating not holding back Supes, without even trying to fight seriously, and he was stronger than Superman, and posseses bunch of other abilities like matter manipulation, spell casting, lightning manipulation and etc...

Team 1 I believe, Orion is na beast

@mazeraiii: I meant Orion could take either in a one vs one battle. I don't see Black Adam or Shazam being able to put down Orion especially if he uses the Astro-Force to its fullest extent.

Orion would wreck either Billy or Teth, dude goes toe to toe with Sundipped Superman

@sly_141:

I meant Orion could take either in a one vs one battle.

Yes he can take either on one vs one, but he wouldn't defeat them.

I don't see Black Adam or Shazam being able to put down Orion

Shazam and BA have shown better versality than Orion: Shazam is as strong and more durable as Superman, has speed nearly equal to that of the Flash, can amp his strength and durability far beyond that of his limits, can cast powerful spells, his magical attacks are powerful enough to hurt BA, who has insane magical durability, can spam lightnings all over the place, can use lightnings to heal himself and etc... and that's not including BA's versality, like Matter Manipulation(Orion gets turned into stone), Ligthning Manipulation, and other bunch of abilities.

especially if he uses the Astro-Force to its fullest extent.

Bad logic, i can say the same about Shazam and BA, if they use Power of Zeus and Power of Aton(Atum) at fullest.

For instance, when Mary had all of BA's powers, she was doing some crazy shit with Power of Aton(Atum):

Her Matter Manipulation was so powerful that she could shrink people and turn them into "living" trees:

Turned cows into fishes:

Tuned people into stone:

Turned magical monsters into humans:

She was aging people to death instantly:

These feats trump Orion's.

Orion would get his ass handed by them, they have better feats.

He didn't went toe to toe against Sundipped Superman, that Superman was regular one, and he had help of an entire JLA. Also if it was Sundipped Superman he would have looked different, as shown in Our Worlds at War storyline.

Also Billy and Teth battled foes far more powerful than Sndipped Superman, like Spectre, Yuga Khan, almost every team on DC an etc..

Team 1 without much effort.

Team 1 Orion would beat either Shazam or Black adam

Team 1 with some effort. It'll be a cool fight. Orion's no slouch with strength, stamina, and mother box as well as Astro force.

team 1 in a good match.

@mazeraiii: Orion has shown be resistant towards Molecule Manipulation. (His battle with Slig) And it seems that Motherbox would also protect him from this as well. Then their is the fact that he has also atomized someone before. Also I haven't seen Black Adam or Shazam use this power often though I could be wrong.

As for Shazams advantages, Orion is also just as strong as Superman at minimum, and also can amp himself with the Astro-Force or the Motherbox... The Motherbox can also heal him and then do tons of other things. I'm not seeing Shazam being as fast as the flash unless you're talking about Jay Garrick. If the Astro-Focre can be used to defy the Omega Beams why wouldn't it protect him lightning spam? The Astro-Force and the Motherbox can also redirect energies like that right back at the opponents who fired them. And then why bring up Shazam/Black Adam fighting people like Spectre and Yuga Khan? It doesn't seem plausible that they would pose even the slightest danger to them unless it was do to with PIS.

I don't know that much about Shazam and BA but from what it seems it doesn't look like they would be ab,e to take on Team 1. Maybe you can try to prove me wrong, but I just don't see it right now.

@sly_141:

Orion has shown be resistant towards Molecule Manipulation. (His battle with Slig)

Slig doesn't have Molecule Manipulation feats on the same caliber as Power of Zeus and Aton(Atum). So unless Orion reisists MM of the same caliber as PoZ and PoA, then i would agree that Orion would resist it, but so far he hasn't shown that kind of level of resistance, and to point something out, when Mary had BA's powers her magic was powerful enough to hurt even Darkseid:

She used her raw magical power to use and energy attack, which was powerful enough to hurt DS, now translate her raw magical power to Molecuel Manipulation, and it would be clear that Orion ain't resisting it.

And it seems that Motherbox would also protect him from this as well.

Speculation, unless you have scans to back up that claim.

Then their is the fact that he has also atomized someone before.

Still nothing compared to PoA and PoZ Molecule Manipulation. Feats of PoA and PoZ of MM are superior of Orion's MM feats. And Orion did it once, while the users of PoA and PoZ, where doing it more than once.

Also I haven't seen Black Adam or Shazam use this power often though I could be wrong.

You better than me should know how writers love to not use characters at their full power.

As for instance both BA and Shazam have shown Molecule Manipulation.
Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint Shazam:

As Billy Batson(Post-Crisis) uses his magic to create armchair, TV and etc...

In second Scan, he states that he just needs to think/focus about it, and there it is.

Post-Flashpoint Shazam uses his magic to create ping-pong table out of nothing.

Post-Crisis BA hasn't shown any MM feats, but when Mary had all of BA's power, she showed high-end MM feats, for those scans look at post #16

As for Post-Flashpoint BA, here are his feats.

Uses Aton-Mahjarr(which translates as Power of Aton) to turn Ibac into stone.

As for Shazams advantages, Orion is also just as strong as Superman at minimum, and also can amp himself with the Astro-Force or the Motherbox...

Shazam is not only as strong as Superman, he is more durable than him.
I haven't seen him amping his strength, posting scans to back up that would be nice. Also just because he can amp his strength doesn't mean he can amp it on the same level as Shazam.

In these scans Shazam uses PoZ to amp his strength to a degree that he layed a smackdown on a guy who possessed vast superhumand strength and durability and had Superman's, Martian Manhunter's Aquaman's strength, durability combined. I highly doubt that Orion can amp his strength to a degree that he would beat the crap out of a being who is more durable than Superman and MMH combined.

Also, unlike Orion, Shazam can even amp his durability via Power of Zeus.

The Motherbox can also heal him and then do tons of other things.

Orion with Mother Box has only shown that he can change his appearance, resist low-level MM, and that's it. And the users of Power of Shazam have feats of MM to say that they can Molecule Manipulate Orion, especially considering the fact from where comes that power(PoZ, PoA). As for healing i know that it can heal, but it doesn't heal fast.

As for healing factor, Shazam has a good one.

He can even call down the lightning to heal and recharge himself.

I'm not seeing Shazam being as fast as the flash unless you're talking about Jay Garrick.

Writer's opinion >>> Your Opinion.

Jerry Ordway is the one who wrote Power of Shazam graphic novel, and Power of Shazam series.

If the Astro-Focre can be used to defy the Omega Beams why wouldn't it protect him lightning spam?

Because of those Omega Beams can be tanked S-tier characters without too much problem, Superman did it, WW with her bracelets did it, even Mary when she had powers of BA totally no-selled it as if it was nothing.

Why would those lightnings hurt Orion? Let me guess maybe because it hurted DS, or the fact that it can hurt CM and BA who both possess insane magical durability.

Here are some of CM's magical durability feats.

Tanks hits and energy attacks from Unbound Spectre(a legit universe buster). The most impressive thing is that in their battle Spectre was draining CM from his magical energy, thus making far less durable, but still durable enough to tank his attacks, also most of their fight was off-panel, we only get to see only the end of it, where Cap had only a small fraction of his magical energy, thus almost having weak durability.

In their second fight, he was durable enough to tank his attack, without too much damage.

This is how insane magical durability they have, then we have BA and CM hurting each other with their lightnings.

Gallery

Also CM's and BA's magical lightnings are powerful enough to hurt Martian Manhunter.

Gallery

http://i.imgur.com/bnivFBt.jpg

Powerful enough to harm amped Death.

http://imgur.com/a/A9TYX

The Astro-Force and the Motherbox can also redirect energies like that right back at the opponents who fired them.

Astro-Force cannot do that.

As for redirecting Orion hasn't shown that he can redirect energies of beings as powerful as BA and Shazam, his feats of redirecting are redirecting two fodder energy beams, that's the only feat of redirecting he has.

And then why bring up Shazam/Black Adam fighting people like Spectre and Yuga Khan? It doesn't seem plausible that they would pose even the slightest danger to them unless it was do to with PIS.

Why would they pose a threat to them? Let me guess, maybe because they have the power of the freaking gods?

Spectre was even surprised that Shazam possesses such powerful magic, which is the Power of Zeus.

Shazam already stomped Yuga Khan.

Gallery

Understand that BA and Shazam are not Superman, when Superman fights very powerful foes which he shouldn't be capable of fighting, it cannot be expalained(a.l.a. PIS), but when BA and Shazam fight powerful foes it can be explained and rather easily, as each of them is connected to the power of skyfather(Zeus, Atum). DC Skyfathers are shown to be powerful enough to split The Source. And if you look at the myths of Zeus and Atum you would see how powerful they were(Atum in myth created himself and the universe). And if needed help they can ask those gods to give them more power.

I don't know that much about Shazam and BA but from what it seems it doesn't look like they would be ab,e to take on Team 1.

They have the clear advantages here: Speed, Strength, Durability, Power, Hax(Matter Manipulation, lightning healing, Wisdom of Solomon/Zehuti, lightning manipulation, spell casting), Magic powerful enough to hurt themselves. So it is otherwise Team 1 doesn't have anything to take on Team 2, and Superman dies the fist, Matter Manipulated, Blitz+Magic = Death. And Orion would lose to BA and Shazam on 1 vs 1.

Also BA and Shazam did something which Superman and Orion haven't shown bust many teams, BA in WW3 defeated almost every hero in DC. Shazam in Underworld Unleashed was beating the crap out of bloodlusted JLA, while having 1/3 of his power and broken arm.

Maybe you can try to prove me wrong, but I just don't see it right now.

I have already proved you wrong, period.

@mazeraiii: Im trying to be nice here so we can agree to disagree. You're not really presenting a argument I'm willing to engage in (Using writer statements, other characters feats, amped versions such as GoG Shazam, and PIS like BA harming Psectre to prove a point.) You tried to debunk my Mother Box MM protection by dismissing it as a simple assumption when your argument relies on the assumption Black Mary's power would work on someone like Orion or Superman... Or that Shazam and Black Adam would have full access to power used to split the Source up. (When have they ever been shown to be that powerful? And if they are that powerful why do they struggle with chapters much smaller than the Source?) If you truly believe that they these two could beat Orion in a 1v1 make another thread about it because I won't derail this one any further...

SM+O

@sly_141:

Im trying to be nice here so we can agree to disagree. You're not really presenting a argument I'm willing to engage in (Using writer statements, other characters feats, amped versions such as GoG Shazam, and PIS like BA harming Psectre to prove a point.)

We don't really know if GoG is more powerful than regular Shazam/

BA harmed Spectre via amping his strikes via Power of Atum, i guess you would agree that Atum, egyptian skyfather can harm Spectre. And i can clearly see you didn't read my post properly i didn't scans of BA harming Spectre, as Spectre is just an inconsistent jobber in Pre-52.

You tried to debunk my Mother Box MM protection by dismissing it as a simple assumption

Mother Box hasn't shown feats that it can resist Molecule Manipulation on the level of the users of Power of Shazam.
And as i said already unless you have feats to prove otherwise, i see no reason why BA's or Shazam's MM wouldn't work on him.

when your argument relies on the assumption Black Mary's power would work on someone like Orion or Superman...

Lol, so you say she can't harm them with her magic? Yet she hurt Darkseid with her magic, yet BA hurt Shazam with his magic, and Shazam has insane magical durability, like tanking attacks from Unbound Spectre, Egyptian Gods and etc.. Superman is as vulnerable to magic as regular people, so bringing him up is irrelevant, he gets MM'd the first. As for Orion, i already said that he doesn't have resisting Molecule Manipulation on the level of Power of Shazam users.

Or that Shazam and Black Adam would have full access to power used to split the Source up.

If they ask those gods to give them more powerful, BIG IF.

When have they ever been shown to be that powerful?

Lord Marvel for Shazam.

Wizard Adam for Adam(He got the power of Wizard Shazam in comic known as Billy Batson and Magic of Shazam.)

And if they are that powerful why do they struggle with chapters much smaller than the Source?)

Read above. And i never said that they are in that tier all i said that they call up more power if they ask their gods. Also my point there was to prove that when BA and Shazam fight powerful foes it can be explained by Power of Zeus and Power of Atum.

If you truly believe that they these two could beat Orion in a 1v1 make another thread about it because I won't derail this one any further...

I don't believe, i have proof to back up my claims.

They have clear advantages here: Speed, Strength, Durability, Matter Manipulation, Magic, Lightning Manipulation(which is powerful enough to hurt both Shazam and BA, who can resist magic of the Unbound Spectre), Hax. The question is what can Team 1 do to Team 2? The answer is nothing.

@mazeraiii: That's nice opinion you have there. I repsect it even though I don't necessarily agree with it. I'll remember to tag you anytime I see Shazam or Black Adam being underrepresented. I also don't have the time to continue this conversation with finals and everything...

Shazam and Black Adam take the win.

Team 1

In case evidence for Orion is needed, @ancient_0f_days' post on another thread demonstrates Orion's very apparent superiority over Shazam and over Black Adam in every physical and energy ability area.

@ancient_0f_days said:

Orion wrecks the first round

....for being just as strong and hitting harder, evenly trading blows with Superman/one shotting a white martian/hurting Black Adam.

Gallery

being a good deal faster, blitzes an entire fleet on his Astro Harness/keeps up with Black Racer Simulacrum on Aero-Discs/blitzes Mantis/blitzes Ecruos/blitzes Darkseid/blitzes Delta patrol

Gallery

Being a ton more durable, unhurt by Superman in their first encounter/survives having vitals damaged and shows healing factor/unfazed by Sivaa's energy blades

Gallery

*durability cont.* Gets a city thrown at him by lightray/normally evenly matched in strength with Kalibak and tanks his blows/outmatched by amped Kalibak still tanks his blows......

Gallery

Being way more skilled, out-skills Kalibak/out-skills Darkseid's Monitors/out-skills Darkseid's elite/evenly matches Darkseid in combat

Gallery

And Orion has a stronger power output, one shots younger Superman/knocks older Superman around/one shots Starfire/endangers Earth with his blasts near the moon/one shots Kalibak and his troops/splats Mantis/atomizes Black Racer's gear/wounds League busting Starro alien...

Gallery

*power cont.* Orion's power output is proportional to wiping out a quarter of Apokolips/New Genesis (planet sizes = half as big as the largest star).

Gallery

"The largest known star is VY Canis Majoris; a red hypergiant star in the Canis Major constellation, located about 5,000 light-years from Earth. University of Minnesota professor Roberta Humphreys recently calculated its upper size at more than 1,540 times the size of the Sun. Placed in our Solar System, its surface would extend out past the orbit of Saturn." - Fraser Cain.

Orion charges at Kalibak and Mantis, incinerates them, KOs Superman and blows up a portion of the city they were in. On New Genesis (which is possibly larger than 770 suns), that city is visible from space, Orion destroys a sizable portion of it. Orion decimates Darkseid's armies, blasts at everything in sight, tearing up much of the planet's surface. On Apokolips (which is also possibly larger than 770 suns), Orion caused explosions that were visible from space and covered a sizable portion of the planet.

Gallery

So basically, Orion stomps Billy in round 1

Orion wrecks round 2, Countdown to Final Crisis, Death of the New Gods

Orion wrecks round 3, Suicide

@lvenger:

Team 1. They have better feats.

@sly_141: @lvenger: @mazeraiii: @ancient_0f_days: I want to ask something. Are we really going to use writers statements now?. Because there are times when writers say many things, but then we see that things are different in the comics. They call Shazam, Supergirl, Wonder Woman, etc Superman's equal in strength, but that can't be true because Clark's feats are superior. Also a writer said shazam is equal to Flash in speed, but feats show that Flash is superior. So is there really a valid reason to say that Orion can't beat shazam in a one on one fight like mazeraiii say?. I saw mazeraiii talked about shazam being able to take universal level attacks, in a thread where he suggested that Post Crisis Wonder Woman would be easily defeated by Post Crisis shazam, but shazam's durability can't be anywhere near universal level based on consistent feats. Also some flamewars happen because of double standard. For example sometimes, you see certain users(not mazeraiii) saying "don't use ABC logic", then you see them using ABC logic. Some say "consistent feats are all that matter", but they later use feats that are trully not the norm for their fav characters. It's because of things like these that i don't visit comic vine and other forums as often as i used to. I think that being 100% objective, and based on feats and trackrecord in battles. Post Crisis Superman>Orion( the second one in terms of feats compare to Clark, although The Astro Force can turn the table in his favor)>Post Crisis Wonder Woman=/or maybe>Shazam because of the skills advantage, weapons and better combat speed>Supergirl. What do you guys think?. Am i missing something?.

Team 1 by a fair margin.

@linkjt: Orion=>Supes IMO and Based on how he has been written. And I didn't use writer statements this time that was mazeraii and he can explain why he did so. My argument ( which wasn't really an argument but me just stating my opinion) was based more off of feats and how the character is written

Team 1, Orion MVP

@ancient_0f_days: Really?! That's badass which issue(s) did that take place?

Team 1

Superman: King of the World Arc.....unless you mean all the feats posted

@mazeraiii: You're good. Too good...

@ancient_0f_days: Pre-Flashpoint, i'd normally lean towards Superman/Orion for the win due to Orion being such a monster.

But if @mazeraiii is to be taken at face value on Captain Marvel's new upgrade(s), this is one he really can win if he's serious about it. Hell if he's beaten Yuga FREAKING Khan, he wouldn't even need Black Adam's help.

I know that if anybody (outside of myself) here on the 'Vine remembers how insanely power Yuga Khan was it's you, Ancient One. If I'm wrong on this one PLEASE tell me where I missed it. I've just gotta know!!!

@heraldofganthet: New 52 Yuga is featless and we don't know how strong he really is, plus Cap has his strength and was able to stomp him.....personally I'm upset with how they had Captain Marvel stomp Uxas's pops like a redheaded stepchild, dude was practically Trigon level post crisis....anyway, because Yuga is so featless we have no reason to assume the amp was significant or even considered a feat. We can't go on the assumption that Yuga is stronger than Darkseid or the Anti-Monitor or The Wizard or any other Old God because he has nothing solid to base that off of, what sucks for Billy is that he can't benefit from having Yuga's strength in the battle forums due to lack of feats and can only rely on his own or other specifically stated/shown feats. It would be somewhat logical to give him some leeway because it is supposed to be a huge godly buff, but it's still not a legitimate feat since they share power and there's nothing to compare them to but each other. That's just me, but I can't go and find feats for Billy unless he got new ones with the buff so I can't back him.

@ancient_0f_days:

New 52 Yuga is featless and we don't know how strong he really is, plus Cap has his strength and was able to stomp him.....personally I'm upset with how they had Captain Marvel stomp Uxas's pops like a redheaded stepchild, dude was practically Trigon level post crisis....

Agreed. Post-Crisis Yuga was one scary mofo...

anyway, because Yuga is so featless we have no reason to assume the amp was significant or even considered a feat. We can't go on the assumption that Yuga is stronger than Darkseid or the Anti-Monitor or The Wizard or any other Old God because he has nothing solid to base that off of, what sucks for Billy is that he can't benefit from having Yuga's strength in the battle forums due to lack of feats and can only rely on his own or other specifically stated/shown feats. It would be somewhat logical to give him some leeway because it is supposed to be a huge godly buff, but it's still not a legitimate feat since they share power and there's nothing to compare them to but each other. That's just me, but I can't go and find feats for Billy unless he got new ones with the buff so I can't back him.

Hmm. That is indeed what I've missed. Thanks, bud!

@ecstaticgrace: Are any of the New Gods the same characters after Flashpoint? Being inside the Source Wall doesn't mean they're the same characters. Yuga Khan was killed in a different way than he was Post Crisis according to his backstory anyway.

Clark isn't need honestly, Team 1 easy work.

Since none of that is even remotely quantifiable, it isn't credible

@heraldofganthet: No prob