sttgl and majin ds vs goku and zarama(dragon god)

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kingkakarot

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who wins

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kingkakarot

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TheMan44

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#3  Edited By TheMan44

Team 1 due to dark Schneider

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Alphapunk

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@theman44 said:

Team 1 due to dark Schneider

I was reading up on DS and noticed a lack of DC, do you or anybody reading this know any feats over star level for him? I know his defense is top notch.

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TheMan44

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#5  Edited By TheMan44

@alphapunk: he withstood a Big Bang level attack and he got in a fight that broke reality itself.

Also I don't think he can die but that part is unclear to me.

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Drmagic

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Zarama is featless and goku ain't beating any of the two alone

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Blade_R

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Dark Shchnider or w.e has crazy hax and apparently has to be killed at like multiple places at once in order to be beaten, so the team he is on wins this one IMO

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CitizenSentry

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STTGL Solos

and from what I've heard of Dark Schneider he also solos.

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Alphapunk

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@theman44 said:

@alphapunk: he withstood a Big Bang level attack and he got in a fight that broke reality itself.

Also I don't think he can die but that part is unclear to me.

I know his defenses are good, i found this for DC in a respect thread, seems like his best DC feat

Scan 1) The Black Abyss is destroyed as a side effect of DS and Uriel's battle.

Scan 2) Description of the Black Abyss, a super-massive black hole with the equivalent mass of fifty million suns.

Scans 3-4) Reality shatters and the dimension barriers between worlds cracks open.

Scans 5-7) Explanation, with Lucifer stating the power to break the dimension barrier between worlds would take the equivalent power to that of the Big Bang.

Scans 7) The Judas Priest Dark Schneider are capable of destroying the Black Abyss.

So DS + Uriel = big bang lvl DC? It says it has a mass of fifty million suns which is far from Universal though.

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TheMan44

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@alphapunk: yea but breaking reality is above universal plus his hax which are gokus weakness in battle forums

I'm iffy on Goku taking sttgl. It's basically asking Goku to universe bust which I'm not 100% on

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rickyrck

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isnt this a missmatch?

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TheMan44

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@rickyrck: not really it's an honest question.

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Terrortuga

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Either member of team 1 solo and the dragon is featless .

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KingH

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@alphapunk: The amount of energy to break the barriors between hell and earth in basyard verse requires amount of energy of big bang

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micah007123

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Team 1 is too powerful.

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AkshSarpanch

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@theman44: lol, no, he never withstood by big bang level. Stop making things up.

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AkshSarpanch

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#17  Edited By AkshSarpanch

@kingh: which was already severly weakened by Satan before, so no he was nowhere big bang level attack. Also he got injured by far less weakened attacks so yeah no.

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Alphapunk

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@micah said:

Team 1 is too powerful.

Don't know about that. I never seen the 2nd TTGL movie but unless he is far different to ttgl he is weak to Goku. I know ttgl has human reaction time which makes him -extremely- susceptible to instant transmission. Goku has shown the ability to search large portions of 2.3 Universes in a matter of seconds, he should be able to find sttgl pilots very quickly and from what i saw instant transmission should work. He can kill the pilots pretty easy. People talk about hax and time missiles but the show does not elaborate on what they mean. He uses missiles for time attack defense not so much offense, they never show them attacking in the past. Anyway even if Goku can't find the pilots in time casual galaxy level strikes shouldn't even move him, he has high end multi-galaxy durability and striking when he was in his red god form, he surpassed that a while ago.

DS is another story. Him and another guy caused a big bang level attack or half a Universal level attack. Goku and Beerus threatened 2.3 Universes when he was in his red god form so it's debatable that he had a little over double DS destructive capability and possibly durability in a weaker form if that is DS best DC feat. DS shields are very powerful but single attacks have broke them.

Vegeta with 10 months of training with Whis went from being one shot by 10% Beerus to being equal to SSB Goku, with that said it's fair to say Goku likely doubled his power and likely much more with 4 months of training.

Anyways i am trying to find out more about DS and his 1/2 big bang feat is the best DC feat i can find, his hax appear to be able to reflect damage back ect but nothing to crazy as to make it a stomp. DS has 3 bodies in the physical astral and spiritual planes, i am not sure but if he has separate bodies could Goku literally teleport to those planes? He has been casually teleporting around 2.3 Universes over 4 realms for years so i don't think it would be impossible for him to find DS bodies and teleport them together, DS has had his shields busted by 1 very powerful attack and MANY fast attacks, Goku at this point should be able to bust his shields, this doesn't mean he wins but he has the chance.

Give Goku another teammate with feats ;)

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Alphapunk

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@theman44 said:

@alphapunk: yea but breaking reality is above universal plus his hax which are gokus weakness in battle forums

I'm iffy on Goku taking sttgl. It's basically asking Goku to universe bust which I'm not 100% on

I looked at DS hax, they are not overly powerful i believe, maybe i missed something. Also the listed DC feats show him and one more guy broke reality which equaled 50 million suns which is far under 200 billion galaxies which is what 1 Universe is. It did say him and another guy made a big bang so he contributed half a universal attack by that.

Sttgl is only 60 or so Galaxies in size right? Like i said above Goku could easily find the pilots and teleport to them and kill them. I never saw the 2nd movie was anything changed drastically? STTGL have HUMAN reaction times like ttgl? If that is true they will react millions-billions of times slower than Goku, he has shown the ability to search 2.3 Universes in seconds so finding the pilots will be easy.

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kingkakarot

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@micah said:

Team 1 is too powerful.

maybe not we just need more feats for the dragon god

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Terrortuga

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@alphapunk: STTGL is bigger than the universe, it's like 52.8 Billion light years tall . Its is Millions time FTL due to the size scale it fights on .

Loading Video...

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kingkakarot

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@rickyrck said:

isnt this a missmatch?

not a mismatch zarama is pretty much nigh omnipotent or high reality warper

http://www.comicvine.com/dragon-ball-universe/4015-56629/forums/zarama-omnipotent-dragon-ball-1755026/

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josephgomes619

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STTLG solos, Dark Schneider possibly solos unless Zarama has universal level reality warping

Also Goku can't survive in space, STTLG destroys galaxies by accident

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kyrees

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maybe not we just need more feats for the dragon god

then why use him now if he doesn't have any feats save for creating gigantic dragonballs that have done nothing to date except supposedy "grant any wish" like how the original dragonblls were ?

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micah007123

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#25  Edited By micah007123

@kyrees said:
@kingkakarot said:

maybe not we just need more feats for the dragon god

then why use him now if he doesn't have any feats save for creating gigantic dragonballs that have done nothing to date except supposedy "grant any wish" like how the original dragonblls were ?

I get your point but there is still a massive difference between the fragment of the true original DB's that were stated to "grant any wish" and the one true original ones that have been stated by a possible omniscient character to "grant any wish".

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kingkakarot

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@kyrees said:
@kingkakarot said:

maybe not we just need more feats for the dragon god

then why use him now if he doesn't have any feats save for creating gigantic dragonballs that have done nothing to date except supposedy "grant any wish" like how the original dragonblls were ?

he has 2 feats only

1.creating the giant balls

2.sent them across the multiverse

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RealityWarper

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@micah said:

Team 1 is too powerful.

This.

The only way to kill DS is to kill his eternal atom which an hard task as Uriel throwing billions (?) of nuclear attack-level per second was unable to kill him.

Ds is HAX.

I don't know much about STTGL but I guess that he has a LOT of RAW power.

At worst DS can resurrect the STTGL crew easily.

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kyrees

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@micah said:
@kyrees said:
@kingkakarot said:

maybe not we just need more feats for the dragon god

then why use him now if he doesn't have any feats save for creating gigantic dragonballs that have done nothing to date except supposedy "grant any wish" like how the original dragonblls were ?

I get your point but there is still a massive difference between the fragment of the true original DB's that were stated to "grant any wish" and the one true original ones that have been stated by an omniscient character to "grant any wish"

that massive difference remains to be seen and no stated omniscient character can support an argument for that for now for lack of evidences and author's past history to relevant material.

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kyrees

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@kyrees said:
@kingkakarot said:

maybe not we just need more feats for the dragon god

then why use him now if he doesn't have any feats save for creating gigantic dragonballs that have done nothing to date except supposedy "grant any wish" like how the original dragonblls were ?

he has 2 feats only

1.creating the giant balls

2.sent them across the multiverse

so essentially like the namekians then. that is so convincing. /smh

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micah007123

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#30  Edited By micah007123

@kyrees said:
@micah said:
@kyrees said:
@kingkakarot said:

maybe not we just need more feats for the dragon god

then why use him now if he doesn't have any feats save for creating gigantic dragonballs that have done nothing to date except supposedy "grant any wish" like how the original dragonblls were ?

I get your point but there is still a massive difference between the fragment of the true original DB's that were stated to "grant any wish" and the one true original ones that have been stated by an omniscient character to "grant any wish"

that massive difference remains to be seen

So the fact that these are the one true balls and the others were fragments means nothing?

and no stated omniscient character can support an argument for that for now for lack of evidences and author's past history to relevant material.

An omniscient character would know everything, hence the name. Even if Zuno isn't omniscient he's obviously the most informed individual in the universe at the moment and a character that Akira created with this knowledge to be of support to other characters when explanation time comes. What comes out of his mouth holds more relevance for the current status quo than anything that happened before. Until the "grant any wish" statement is contradicted that is the current status quo. The question now is what feats does Zarama have to support him being of use in this fight.

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kyrees

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@micah said:
@kyrees said:

that massive difference remains to be seen

So the fact that these are the one true balls and the others were fragments means nothing?

and no stated omniscient character can support an argument for that for now for lack of evidences and author's past history to relevant material.

A omniscient character would know everything, hence the name. Even if Zuno isn't omniscient he's obviously the most informed individual in the universe at the moment and a character that Akira created with this knowledge to be of support to other characters when explanation time comes. What comes out of his mouth holds more relevance for the current status quo than anything that happened before. Until the "grant any wish" statement is contradicted that is the current status quo.

fragments argument would hold true if the relevant material wasn't so easily subverted just like how the earth and namekian dragonballs were. i am holding my breath on this one

the only status quo here is zarama created the original dragonballs. this is toriyama, i can't wait for the next surprise in store for us.

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micah007123

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#32  Edited By micah007123

@kyrees said:
@micah said:
@kyrees said:

that massive difference remains to be seen

So the fact that these are the one true balls and the others were fragments means nothing?

and no stated omniscient character can support an argument for that for now for lack of evidences and author's past history to relevant material.

A omniscient character would know everything, hence the name. Even if Zuno isn't omniscient he's obviously the most informed individual in the universe at the moment and a character that Akira created with this knowledge to be of support to other characters when explanation time comes. What comes out of his mouth holds more relevance for the current status quo than anything that happened before. Until the "grant any wish" statement is contradicted that is the current status quo.

fragments argument would hold true if the relevant material wasn't so easily subverted just like how the earth and namekian dragonballs were. i am holding my breath on this one

the only status quo here is zarama created the original dragonballs. this is toriyama, i can't wait for the next surprise in store for us.

When and if the current status quo is subverted then the balls won't be able to grant any wish. Right now your predicting that's what will happen and trying to apply that argument to take down the current status quo of the balls being able to grant any wish. I'm not saying nothing will change but as of now we have no reason to assume the balls aren't capable of what they are stated to be capable of, especially with the amount of evidence backing up said claims including the backing of a character who's probably the most reliable person in the franchise other than Whis when it comes to cosmic matters.

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kyrees

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@micah said:

When and if the current status quo is subverted then the balls won't be able to grant any wish. Right now your predicting that's what will happen and trying to apply that argument to take down the current status quo of the balls being able to grant any wish. I'm not saying nothing will change but as of now we have no reason to assume the balls aren't capable of what they are stated to be capable of, especially with the amount of evidence backing up said claims including the backing of a character who's probably the most reliable person in the franchise other than Whis when it comes to cosmic matters.

except toriyama's history with such items tends to be subverted as time goes by. the earth dragonballs were limited by the intro of the namek arc and the namekian dragonballs were pretty much limited after their introduction. if we include GT, the black star dragonballs were downright lethal.

i am not predicting anything, i am looking over what toriyama essentially did on similar material.

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RealityWarper

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By the way :

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micah007123

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#35  Edited By micah007123

@kyrees said:
@micah said:

When and if the current status quo is subverted then the balls won't be able to grant any wish. Right now your predicting that's what will happen and trying to apply that argument to take down the current status quo of the balls being able to grant any wish. I'm not saying nothing will change but as of now we have no reason to assume the balls aren't capable of what they are stated to be capable of, especially with the amount of evidence backing up said claims including the backing of a character who's probably the most reliable person in the franchise other than Whis when it comes to cosmic matters.

except toriyama's history with such items tends to be subverted as time goes by. the earth dragonballs were limited by the intro of the namek arc and the namekian dragonballs were pretty much limited after their introduction. if we include GT, the black star dragonballs were downright lethal.

i am not predicting anything, i am looking over what toriyama essentially did on similar material.

Your looking over previous info in an attempt to guess (a better word would be predict) what's going to happen this time around, since neither you or I can look into the future, nor do you or I have insider knowledge about what Akira is planning. So logically that leaves us with predictions of what we believe will happen and nothings wrong with that. When the current material is subverted I will be the first to let you know, but right now the "grant any wish" statement stands. Akira wouldn't write such a claim in his script if he didn't mean what is obviously intended, now if that changes in the next month it changes......that's how fiction goes, but right now it is what it is.

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kyrees

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#36  Edited By kyrees

@micah said:

Your looking over previous info in an attempt to guess (a better word would be predict) what's going to happen this time around, since neither you or I can look into the future, nor do you or I have insider knowledge about what Akira is planning. So logically that leaves us with predictions of what we will believe will happen and nothings wrong with that. When the current material is subverted I will be the first to let you know, but right now the "grant any wish" statement stands. Akira wouldn't write such a claim in his script if he didn't mean what is obviously intended, now if that changes in the next month it changes......that's how fiction goes, but right now it is what it is.

so that magically ignores the last iterations of such plot devices because that's how fiction goes ? author reliability is a good trait and toriyama on these part of plot devices really writes himself in the corner.

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micah007123

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#37  Edited By micah007123

@kyrees said:
@micah said:

Your looking over previous info in an attempt to guess (a better word would be predict) what's going to happen this time around, since neither you or I can look into the future, nor do you or I have insider knowledge about what Akira is planning. So logically that leaves us with predictions of what we will believe will happen and nothings wrong with that. When the current material is subverted I will be the first to let you know, but right now the "grant any wish" statement stands. Akira wouldn't write such a claim in his script if he didn't mean what is obviously intended, now if that changes in the next month it changes......that's how fiction goes, but right now it is what it is.

so that magically ignores the last iterations of such plot devices because that's how fiction goes ? author reliability is a good trait and toriyama on these part of plot devices really writes himself in the corner.

No. If the status quo changes in a month then it simply changes. Fiction and the status quo change just about every week in comics and manga (a little more drastic for the former). But as I stressed previously the current status quo for the balls is "grant any wish" with current evidence and testimonies to back it up.

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KryptonianPrime

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Either member of team 1 solo and the dragon is featless .

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Alphapunk

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#39  Edited By Alphapunk

@terrortuga said:

@alphapunk: STTGL is bigger than the universe, it's like 52.8 Billion light years tall . Its is Millions time FTL due to the size scale it fights on .

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The OBSERVABLE Universe is 92 billion light-years, the actual Universe could be infinite, sttgl is not bigger. I would say Sttgl is way over millions of times FTL...the thing is it has human pilots which = human reaction which means Goku should have no problem finding the pilots and killing them. He routinely teleports around 2.3 Universes 4 realms for something a little over half ONE Universe will be easy to find and instant transmission can teleport right next to a person, it's how it works. Goku is sttgl counter, he is perfect to kill it.

@realitywarper said:
@micah said:

Team 1 is too powerful.

This.

The only way to kill DS is to kill his eternal atom which an hard task as Uriel throwing billions (?) of nuclear attack-level per second was unable to kill him.

Ds is HAX.

I don't know much about STTGL but I guess that he has a LOT of RAW power.

At worst DS can resurrect the STTGL crew easily.

DS shields have been busted by one powerful attack and millions-billions of nuke attacks a second. Nobody should argue Goku currently has more DC than anybody DS has fought and his physical strikes would make millions-billions of nuke strikes seem trivial. How many nukes would it take to destroy one solar system? Trillions? Billions of solar systems in one galaxy...200 billion galaxies in one Universe...Goku helped threaten 2.3 Universes with 3 punches when he was weak, he is currently way stronger in base then he was back then. I don't need to do the math to know Goku can perform quintillions+ of times stronger than what you described.

People underestimate Goku still, these 2 guys have hax but they are not god level hax, i am the first to admit even utter weaklings with VERY POWERFUL hax can beat them if they cannot be blitzed but from what i have seen DS and especially sttgl do not have hax to make them win easy.

Sttgl might casually bust galaxies but those level of attacks are nothing to a character that could be multi-universal by now. His base form is over his form that contributed to 2.3 Universes being busted twice...even if he couldn't just teleport and kill sttgl pilots he would be immune to it's attacks, sure the "big bang" drill might be a factor(i argue the statement that it's like a big bang but w/e) but it's not like Goku couldn't overpower ONE UNIVERSE busting attack. Like i said his base form is beyond one universe now before he transforms, if sttgl tries to get into a drill vs KI match he's going to get busted rather easily.

DS has hax but they don't seem OP, his best DC feat seems like contributing to a 50 million star buster or "big bang" is what i saw, it was described as 50 million suns though i give that more weight than the old "big bang". If his top DC is 50 million suns he cannot hurt Goku, period. If his best DC is 1/2 a Universe he might be a small threat to Goku who is legit over Universal now.

How does DS 3 bodies work? Astral spiritual and physical planes of existence? Goku can teleport to his 3 bodies and bust them all. All he has to watch out for is that spell that reflects.

Goku might not win but come on people use come creativity! Goku def has a shot vs these guys now. His multi-universal level sensing TP combined with teleporting and near multi-universal dc and durability make him much more than a "powerhouse" character. They allow him to fight high tier hax characters unless the hax are retarded =)

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Terrortuga

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@alphapunk: Where did you get that figure from ? iirc the furthest light ever received was like 14ish Billion light years away .

The pilots are all normal humans, how will Goku sense the energy of people with no ki while in a battle ? That's way to much for him to do . STTGL is arguably faster than Goku, he can;t IT while in a fight anyways, that point is moot .

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eliah1102

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@alphapunk: No Goku did not contribute to any universal attack and STTGL is faaaaar faster than Goku.

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AkshSarpanch

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#42  Edited By AkshSarpanch

@parichithayerakala: he did if you watch episode 13 and 14, it was stated that Beerus and Goku's energy clash made an unstabe energy which can destroy universr before Beerus negated it.

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@alphapunk:

@micah said:

Team 1 is too powerful.

This.

The only way to kill DS is to kill his eternal atom which an hard task as Uriel throwing billions (?) of nuclear attack-level per second was unable to kill him.

Ds is HAX.

I don't know much about STTGL but I guess that he has a LOT of RAW power.

At worst DS can resurrect the STTGL crew easily.

And Uriel became 130x times stronger after that big bang and destruction of hell event:

No Caption Provided

And Uriel's power was still raising. He just jumped past universe DC in level.

After that he and DS accend above speed as term and start exchange spells and hits at infinite rate just to damage each other:

No Caption Provided

And DS still became even stronger after Uriel defeat

Not to mention that DS can just suck Goku into black hole:

No Caption Provided

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Either one solos. Featless zarama is featless.

@kingh said:

@alphapunk: The amount of energy to break the barriors between hell and earth in basyard verse requires amount of energy of big bang

To be accurate, the amount of energy needed to break schneider out of God's alcatraz space was equivalent to the big bang - which was achieved during the clash of demolisher gun and gungnir.

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Jucaslucas

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@alphapunk: STTGL is 52.8 billion light years tall, and his drill is ten times bigger than him.

That means his drill is 528 billion light years tall, or 5,7 times bigger than the observable universe.

By this calculation TTGL is 157.784.630.000.000 times faster than the speed of light, just by walking(his punching speed would be much faster, since he can punch super fast even for its size).

And since STTGL is much bigger than him he should be at the quadrillions.

Just by this, the humans don't have normal reaction time, since they are able to react to everything that's going on with no problem. If they had human reactions they wouldn't even be able to see the fight, because the robots are moving faster than light.( How can they see without light? Spiral Power that's how.)

And even if they didn't have this ridiculous speed and size, they still would have hax. They have probability manipulation, that means that all of their attacks will always hit, and their enemies will always miss, unless they can warp probability themselves.

Even without that, they have missiles that hit you in every point of space and time.

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Thedarkpaladin

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Team 1 by feats. Zarama solos all three by hype.

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deactivated-5b9c488ed7f76

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@parichithayerakala said:

@akshsarpanch: statements=/=feats or facts.

It was shown both in the manga and anime how their punches were destroying the universe and those feats were also backed by a statement by the old kai who pretty much made it a fact, So there you have your statement/feat/fact. Do not be ridiculous.

On topic i can not answer this one yet, It would be to controversial.

You guys have to think, The super dragon balls CAN grant any wish, So if you wished for them to kill Whis, Vados, Beerus and Champa, They would. When they are gathered you can summon Zarama WHO WILL GRANT YOU ANY WISH , If you wanted to destroy the universe... You could ask for that. Meaning that he is omnipotent(nigh-omnipotent if we wanna get fancy here, since no one can really be omnipotent), By default Zarama would blink team 1 out of existence

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@kyrees: what if he gets a feat later of people asking him to restore the universe destruction.if something similar to that or something happen is that good enough to put him in this battle i reckon it is

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@alphapunk: Where did you get that figure from ? iirc the furthest light ever received was like 14ish Billion light years away .

The pilots are all normal humans, how will Goku sense the energy of people with no ki while in a battle ? That's way to much for him to do . STTGL is arguably faster than Goku, he can;t IT while in a fight anyways, that point is moot .

Goku in Super has been using IT during fights/training with Vegeta. All living beings have life energy, remember Super Buu killing all humans with billions of KI blasts? Goku is not faster than STTGL =)

Size: "Taking advantage of this wealth of information, in 2005 a team of astrophysicists led by J. Richard Gott of Princeton performed a detailed calculation of the radius of the observable universe. Their answer was 45.7 billion light-years—more than three times bigger than our first, naïve estimate!" Since 2005 that number has gone up to 93

"The reason for the difference is that, first of all, 13.8 billion light years is essentially the radius of a sphere of the CMB radiation that is being observed by the WMAP and Planck satellites. Therefore the diameter of that sphere would be 27.6 billion light years. So that brings us a little closer to the diameter of the 93 billion light year of the "observable" universe that is often quoted."

"By current estimates, it’s quite a bit larger, measuring in at a staggering size of 93 billion light-years across."

It doesn't matter anyway, Goku has routinely teleported and sensed being throughout 2.3 Universes and does so instantly or a few seconds, Goku searched the 4 realms in super in like 3-5 seconds....sttgl is far smaller than 2.3 Universes even though he is...huge.

@alphapunk: No Goku did not contribute to any universal attack and STTGL is faaaaar faster than Goku.

Your going to argue something accepted on Comicvine? Hey i agree though! Goku DIDN'T CONTRIBUTE TO A UNIVERSAL attack, he contributed to a MULTI-UNIVERSAL attack. The DB Universe is 2.3 Universes, all the kais commented and all 4 realms were going to be busted. Sttgl might be faaarrrr faster than Goku but the fact is his human reaction time makes him fodder vs Gokus MULTI-UNIVERSAL SENSING TP and instant transmission. He will kill the pilots before they know what happened. Even if he didn't his dc/durability outclass STTGL. STTGL might be a casual galaxy buster but galaxy level attacks ain't doing shit to a guy with Gokus level of striking durability. ONE UNIVERSE durability = 200,000,000,000(billion) galaxies. So his galaxy busting feats are...lower than fodder level for Goku. His best DC feat is a statement that says power equaling a big bang, it's extremely weak evidence but i don't want to argue over it. This means his best attack that takes a while to power up and kill one of his pilots = 1 Universe busting attack.

Goku could arguably overpower his drill when he was in his red ssg form. He contributed to 2.3 busted Universes with 3 phys strikes and once with a ki blast, this could put his ki blast at 1.15 Universes and his strikes at .38 Universes or 76 billion galaxies in dc.

@alphapunk: STTGL is 52.8 billion light years tall, and his drill is ten times bigger than him.

That means his drill is 528 billion light years tall, or 5,7 times bigger than the observable universe.

By this calculation TTGL is 157.784.630.000.000 times faster than the speed of light, just by walking(his punching speed would be much faster, since he can punch super fast even for its size).

And since STTGL is much bigger than him he should be at the quadrillions.

Just by this, the humans don't have normal reaction time, since they are able to react to everything that's going on with no problem. If they had human reactions they wouldn't even be able to see the fight, because the robots are moving faster than light.( How can they see without light? Spiral Power that's how.)

And even if they didn't have this ridiculous speed and size, they still would have hax. They have probability manipulation, that means that all of their attacks will always hit, and their enemies will always miss, unless they can warp probability themselves.

Even without that, they have missiles that hit you in every point of space and time.

Goku strategy to win and sttgl weakness- I am not arguing Sttgl speed. He is faster, even though Goku could just IT planet to planet while he hurls beams way to powerful for sttgl to handle. His size is an immense weakness when Goku can teleport around the Universe, does STTGL have any sensing abilities? If not Goku is invisible to him and who will argue Goku can't hurt him?

REACTION TIMES-The humans do have normal reaction time and show it over and over outside their gunmen. They can use spiral power outside of the gunmen so being inside doesn't change anything i would think. They might be peak or low superhuman though but vs someone like Goku that is below fodder level. Sttgl and the anti spirals are just huge, try to imagine being inside something so large and actually being able to see your opponent, when the anti-spiral attacks the attack might be going WAYYY over FTL but those attacks are not far and few between. Normal humans on the planet watch the fight in real time which also backs my claim up.

They might be insanely fast due to their size but it's not like they are reacting to hundreds-thousands or millions of punches a second. They see way over ftl attacks coming at them from VERY far away and have time to react. If me and you somehow became the size of STTGL we would be MFTL+++ as well and our fight would look similar, does this make us have MFTL reaction times? Damn i can't explain what i am thinking correct someone help me out...both of the beings battling are so big and yes their strikes come at trillions or more ftl but the distance they are fighting gives them time to react, it's a FAR cry from fighting someone where billions of strikes are being deflected, blocked, tanked ect. Someone help me out here =) Basically this shows Goku teleporting planet to planet until he senses the pilots should be rather easy, especially if someone can't provide proof of sttgl being able to know where Goku is, because Goku can literally look and see sttgl and his sensing abilities are Multi-Universal and he has searched 2.3 Universes in seconds or a very large portion of 2.3.

Probability attacks- I am aware of sttgl probability attacks - i also know nothing in his arsenal is a threat to Goku besides his universal Drill. Galaxy level attacks won't hurt Goku i hope we can agree on this. I never saw episode 2 or the new sttgl i must be blanking on the probability effect that makes people miss. If he can do this i will admit a straight up fight might be very difficult, to finish sttgl anyway, i believe Goku always finishes this fight with a full power Kamehameha vs Universal Drill anyway so it might boil down to that. If anything at this point we should agree Goku should be able to counter the probability dodging after a little bit of fighting, he picks up techniques extremely quick and while he might not master the ability he should be able to make it so he can hit him 1/2 the time, if he would have him the first place of course.

Time attacks- This is where i must ask for proof. I watched TTGL and the only part i remember was the whole -2 -4 +6 + 8 part ect ect. They never showed ttgl attacking anybody in the past or future, i think it's lame that fans have allowed this myth to continue, ttgl is a damn monster he doesn't need to be pumped up or wanked, i don't think you are but the people that have figured this out and remain silent to keep their favorites stronger. Myself i see this feat more of a defensive time attack measure, he was shooting in many directions to counter a time attack, unless the 2nd movie has time attacks idk about we should agree the one time the attacks were shown was very, very vague.

So now.

-Does anyone have proof of STTGL sensing abilities? How would he know where Goku was in the vast Universe?

-Goku can sense the pilots, he has been sensing individuals for decades throughout 2.3 Universes, this shouldn't even be debatable. Super Buu sensing all living beings on Earth is a good exaple of controlled sensing.

-Goku has been shown using instant transmission vs Vegeta in Super, he will use IT vs STTGL

-Goku is FAR stronger than he was when he can be argued at 1.15 DC with one Kamehameha and .38 Universe with his strikes. If you want to debate this i will, those shockwaves might have "got stronger" the further they traveled ect but the fact is it took shockwaves seconds to reach the edges of 2.3 Universes which makes that argument moot. The Universe was going to bust from 3 of Beerus and Gokus physical strikes, period. As a matter of fact if the SHOCKWAVES were busting the Universe we could assume the punches are actually stronger. I won't even bother doing this point. Vegeta after 6 months of training with Whis got about 15x-35x stronger and caught up to Goku. Goku after his base form = red ssg form trained for 6 months by himself and then 4 months with Whis and now has achieved a new form. The people saying he isn't even Universal DC are incompetent. Goku is a good bit over Universal now, he could debatably threaten the DB Universe(2.3) by himself now which puts his DC far beyond sttgl.

Bleh tired of typing i will get to more tomorrow.