SSJ Goku, SSJ Vegeta, SSJ Trunks & SSJ Gohan vs Android 17

Team. They have enough fire power between them

Just some call outs:

Gohan and Trunks seem to be massively weaker than their fathers. It was shown that 17 could manhandle Gohan without even using half his power, whereas Vegeta performed much better against the much more powerful modern day Android 18. That fight between Vegeta and 18 often gets mislabeled as a stomp, but 17 even went so far as to doubt 18 would be able to survive when Piccolo, Tenshinhan and Krillin all joined the mix as well. If that team has even a shot at beating 18, then you can beat Goku and Vegeta alone with their consistent over-the-top tsundere battle synergy can get the job done, and the boys provide adequate distractions if things start to go bad.

Team 10/10.

Team wins here. Hell I could see even 2 of them taking on 17 and winning. 4 may be a stomp.

I can see team barely winning with Goku and Vegeta being the MVP's.

17. And I honestly don't see how he has much difficulty either. None of them are really at all strong enough to do much damage.

17 easily

17 one shots them one by one.

Vegeta did pretty good while Trunks was one shot, Vegeta is a league above the other fighters besides Goku and did better than he received credit for i agree, i did a big post yesterday on this heh.

I would take Vegeta + Goku vs 17, it would be hard but they could do it. His unlimited stamina is basically a time limit. Vegeta was matching 18 and even got the better of her when he was closer to max after she was trying but rather quickly began to lose out once fatigue set in. Gohan and Trunks seal the deal i believe.

team wins if they work together

17.

17 stomps

@amendment50 said:

Well I consider Goku as MVP here, and he does bring Instant Transmission and the Spirit Bomb to the table.

Team

Movie feats allowed? That Gohan has two arms in the picture and in the movie it took a serious Android 17 & 18 with perfect teamwork to overwhelm a one-armed Gohan who was doing pretty damn well up until the serious teamwork.

So I think that Gohan and any single other Z Fighter there (with effective teamwork) could take Android 17. With the rest it is actually a stomp.

However, if we go by the manga only, Android 17 is stronger than Gohan with only 50% of his power. So Assuming the others are ~Gohan then with effective teamwork they can definitely still win but not as easily..

Well Id try to use composite feats if possible, rather than ignoring one source for another. I actually think the anime/movie feats can fit quite well with the manga feats in this instance. In the manga, yes Android 17 at 50% is enough to defeat Gohan. We never see future Android 17 fighting at 100% against Gohan.

In the anime/movie Trunks says it takes more than one Super Saiyan to fight both the Androids (future timeline) at the same time. HOWEVER, Trunks says Android 18 & 17 in the main timeline are MORE powerful than the Androids in his future timeline.

To resolve the power difference between the Future Androids and the Main timeline Androids is that while in the movie Gohan does quite well against the Androids. Let's say they were never going more than 50% at best in the movie. This CAN match what is said in the manga, and what Trunks says in the main timeline, since he has never experienced the Androids at no more than 50% in his future timeline. Essentially, the Androids from the future and the main timeline have the same powerlevel in the anime. Just that Trunks didnt know they were using only up to 50% power when he tried to fight them in the future by himself.

It could go either way. However Cyborg 17 have the advantage here because he have infinite energy and stamina. Future Gohan and Future Trunks are the weakest links here. Future Trunks was knock out after one hit by Cyborg 18 and was knock out of his Super Sayajin form, though Future Trunks was hit by Cyborg 17 before he was knock out and knock out of his Super Saiyajin form by Cyborg 18. Cyborg 17 would be able to do the same thing to Future Gohan and Future Trunks since Piccolo had to rejoined with Kame just to equal Cyborg 17. 3 or 4 hits would be enough to take out Future Trunks and Future Gohan, 2 hits to knock them out of Super saiyajin form and 1 or 2 Ki blast to kill them both. So Future Gohan and Future Trunks are gone, which leave only Super Saiyajin Goku and Super Saiyajin Vegeta left and Cyborg 17 have not even got started yet.

The 2 can work together if Vegeta put aside his pride to work together with Goku. Knowing Vegeta he would definitely not start off that way. That would put Goku at a disadvantage. They would probably get in each other way, and would probably be fighting each other, hell, they even fought each other in the movie and in Dragon Ball Super when they are on the same side, not to mention they do not have infinite energy nor infinite stamina, which would be in Cyborg 17 favor. If Cyborg 17 play it smart he can out last them while they are losing energy and stamina to the point where Cyborg 17 can dominate them both at the same time. It is not an easy win unless you think Kamepiccolo can win easily against both Super Saiyajin Goku and Super Saiyajin Vegeta before they went in the Room Of Spirit At Time during the arc.

17.

@waking_dreamer: Well there's no real way to consolidate the fact that Gohan couldn't handle 17 at half power when he had the use of both of his arms in the manga yet it took two serious Androids with full power to defeat a one-armed Gohan with perfect teamwork. I'm not trying to ignore one source or the other but those differences in ability are too great to fit both. The best I could do (and did) was account for a movie outcome and a manga outcome.

We can't just say that the movie Androids were never going 100%, they seemed very serious when they decided to kill Gohan. I can't at least.

So yeah, even though Android 17 is stronger in the main timeline I don't think it is by enough to take a team of these Super Saiyans in any event.

Team.

This should not even be a discussion, 17 was afraid of letting 18 alone against the gang, 17 and 18 were roughly the same in power, With 16 being more powerful than both.

Super Saiyans stomp.

@crash_: @irhp87: Unless the manga has a very different way the fight plays out with a serious Android 17 vs Fused Piccolo...Android 17 (anime) displays power, speed and durability that far exceeds anything you see from Android 18 vs Vegeta...or even the combined power of Future 17 and 18 vs Future Gohan.

Android 17 at 100% power is an absolute beast! Honestly, he puts to shame any previous performance of 18/17 whether it's future or main timeline. I don't see how even these 4 Super Saiyans won't be in a fight for their lives - at the very least.

17 without difficulty. If it was 18, then team has a chance.

The battle with Frieza looked more impressive than any android battles, So that should not be a reason to think that, In the manga Android 18 told Vegeta that he was holding back when he blew a truck behind her to which he responded that he did not want to blow up earth, major destructions would've been caused if they actually went all out with blasts, 18 beat Vegeta but 17 still had to intervene due to the others getting mixed in the fight. If i had to rate the androids from 1 to 10, I would give 18 a 7, 17 an 8 and 16 a 10. I do think 17 is stronger, But not by a whole lot, Some will argue they are equal, Fused Piccolo is equal to the androids, But they are all far below an ascended SSJ. Remember when Vegeta moped the flor with semiperfect Cell, I think 4 ssj's should win.

@crash_: that's just 17 talking out his @$$ he thought he was the strongest android and doubted 16 and 18

@xxxcarzellxxx: So you reckon 18 could have indeed solo'd those Z-Fighters?

She did KO SSJ Trunks in 2 hits. Then proceeded to pick apart SSJ Vegeta at her leisure - even reacting to his sneak attack point blank. 17 never actually touched the Supers Saiyans on her behalf. So could non-fused Piccolo and Tien do something to 18 that SSJ Trunks could not? Would Krillin be a threat if her ever got the balls to fight?

Did people read the manga 18 vs Vegeta? When they start fighting serious Vegeta is = and actually winning against 18, he starts to lose and then gets clobbered due to low stamina, it happened faster because toward the end he had to push himself to get back to her level, 4v1 that would not happen with 17.

Goku is typically >= Vegeta and this is probably true, the same as 17 is >= 18. This means Goku could fight s losing battle 1v1 with 17. Adding in Vegeta would be enough because honestly the evidence is their to state Vegeta is just as powerful as 18 which means toward the start of the fight Vegeta is close to his equal, the unlimited stamina is just such a huge advantage, way better than any regeneration.

Trunks and Gohan might be near fodder level 1v1 but with an equal Goku at 100% and a near equal Vegeta at 100% 17 can't just rush them.

This is moderate difficulty fight for the Saiyans due to the time limit. They have a limit before they start to tire or must cause mechanical damage to slow/weaken 17. Goku does have IT kamehameha at this point, i see the fight ending with this, 17 goes for the kill on trunks or gohan and Goku teleports and rips him apart or does a lot of damage, then if he's still alive Vegeta smashes him with a final flash ending it if he hasn't already used a quick big bang while Goku is hitting him with the kamehameha.

@alphapunk: That all hinges on the belief that Android 17 is only slightly more powerful than 18. But what happens when he has shown much better feats than 18 / SSJ Vegeta? Let's not forget 18 can already just about 2-shot SSJ Trunks.

Team easily

I'd rather go with the movie version of Future Gohan. That version makes way more sense than in the manga, which makes him look way too weak for a Super Saiyan who had 13 years to train.

I am pretty sure 17 was said to be a little over 18. His feats are weak not even planet level so they don't matter i think.

If 17 fought to buy time he could win but i just think 4v1 is to much when Goku and Vegeta at 100% are close to his power.

@alphapunk said:

@crash_ said:

I'm off to work now, but I'll leave this here for people to have a look at, sink in, and make their final judgement.

This is Android 17 at 100% power. THIS is what Team Saiyans have to FIGHT. This is what they have to KILL:

If you basically have a solid plan/counter for every move 17 makes in this ONE video, then your arguments will have MUCH more WEIGHT and CREDIBILITY than breaking down 18 performance/fights and simply "scaling her up a little bit"...as if she is a good enough substitute to what 17 fights like. There's no need, forget about 18 - because 17 is right here in front of you, now you can breakdown his actual fighting and show us as HOW the super saiyans STOMP / easily / comfortably defeat him....?

Since if you do, personally I'd think it would be hard for anyone to argue against your points from here on out in this thread.

Also Im curious as how would you respond to this argument brought up early on:

@amendment50 said:

So, for a straightforward question to answer, which attacks from the Super Saiyans are equivalent or better to Kamiccolo's (i.e. his H2H strikes / ranged Ki techniques) and how do they tag 17 enough with them?

17.

The strongest person here is nowhere near as powerful as 17. Gohan was destroyed by a 17 much weaker then the one here, and you need keep in mind 18 fodderized Vegeta and 17 is significantly stronger than his sister.

Beata

I wouldn't say she "fodderized" Vegeta, but she definitely had a slight advantage. You also have to remeber that getting tired played a big role in Vegeta's loss as stated by Piccolo:

Furthermore, #17 noted that she probably wouldn't have been able to take on Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo, Tien and Krillin all by herself. Tien and Krillin would be fodder to the weakest member of the SSJ team we are using here, and Piccolo isn't quite on the level of Gohan or Trunks, let alone Vegeta and Goku who should be a good deal stronger than their sons on account of how quickly Trunks (who i'd argue is the weak link) got taken out of the fight:

It's also worth mentioning that #17 seemed to be quite impressed at how strong Vegeta was and even complimented his fighting skills:

We know that #17 is supposed to be stronger than #18, but I can't see the difference being that much tbh and if #18 couldn't handle a much weaker team on her own, I have my doubts on #17 winning here.

@thedarkpaladin: Why do people take Vegeta destroying 18's clothes as indicator that she bately beat him? Cause it isn't. Once 18 decided the fight was over, that was that. Again, Goku who was arguably stronger than vegeta at the time states he was no match for the androids.

Oh yes she would've. She would've literally One-shot everyone there save Trunks and Vegeta. And there is nothing to suggest the Z-team could've even sufficiently hurt her.

17 was impressed with his skill yes, but that's because as he himself states, is going off of data from like 3 years ago. So he was considerably stronger than Vegeta should have been.

Why take 1 blanket statement as fact? That fight would literally come down to 18 vs Trunks and Vegeta. And she wins there.

Beata

18 already took two of them without receiving damage.

@thedarkpaladin: You continually referencing that doesn't mean anything. 18 was toying with Vegeta in that fight. Wearing him down for the fun of it. Compare 17 vs Piccolo and Vegeta Vs 18. One is an incredibly close match, the other is horrifically one-sided. Trunks's comment is nothing. He didn't even know the extent of these Androids power. Gow could he tell if 18 was serious or not? And do you know what superficial damage is? Marks on the face don't mean anything. They could represent bruises, cuts or even just dirt on the face. 18 suffered superficial damage. Despite her outward appearance being wrecked, she showed no indication the Vegeta was pressing her.

That's why i said ARGUABLY. We don't know how strong Goku was without the heart virus. But seeing how Goku had longer to master his form and is just generally stronger than Vegeta. I don't think it's unrealistic for me support Goku being stronger.

The Manga doesn't indicate anything. You are taken one statement that wasn't even that reinforced as law. 17 just said "I don't think 18 can beat them by herself." Not "There's no way 18 can beat them altogether." Even after saying that he debates even getting involved. This is supported by how she then goes on to destroy Trunks and Vegeta, the 2 strongest Z-Fighters there. Action>>>>>>words. 17 also states several times that he's the strongest in the universe. Is he? No. 17 is wrong all the time. And basing your entire arguement on that is laughable.

Pre-SS Goku was waaaaaaay weaker than Frieza. And yet, the latter still complented him on his strength various times. So what exactly is your point?

You're really bad at debating. This is the battle forum. We use feats and demonstrations of strength here. I can understand reinforcement through statements, but your arguement heavily relies on a flimsy comment from an untrustworthy character. A comment pretty much disproved by later events.

Beata

Not really sure who would win this fight

Mongoose

I see 17 taking this with moderate difficulty

Remember SSJ Trunks was KO'd in 2 hits from only Android 18 in the anime.

This is 100% power Android 17 going physical against Kamiccolo:

^ @ 1:52

^ @0:05

@ 0:05, 1:00

How long can the SSJs take those types of hits?

Considering 18 one shotted trunks (who's stayed to be in the same league as goku and vegeta)

17 wins, pretty handily too

17.

I see the saiyans going the way of future trunks timeline. There's a reason they didn't fight the androids before they powered up.

17 wins.

@bloodblunts: So you don't think SSJ teamwork + Goku's IT + Spiritbomb could make a difference?