Speed Force vs Power Cosmic vs Phoenix Force

Which power is the greatest. Remember that we are debating the forces themselves not the users.

The PF is sentient and capable of independent action. The other two.......

phoenix force
 
but im not sure between power cosmic and speed force. 
i want to say power cosmic because of matter manipulation

Debatable on Phoenix Force and Power Cosmic, depends on what level power cosmic, like Airwalker level or Galactus level.

It would not be the speed force simply because it does not give you any sort of natural defense.

@CitizenBane:

Does being alive make it a better power? its not like they are fighting

and stating why it is better would be helpful since i haven't made my decision yet. for instance can it do anything the other two can't

Power Cosmic to me wins as a power. Everyone who has it is well above and beyond in every aspect, and the sheer number of people who wield it and their level of strength is undeniable. Galactus himself when he's been fed and fully fueled his power cosmic, can contend with even the strongest avatar of the Phoenix. A hungry Galactus has been beat by Rachel Grey which is an argument that will be used here at some point. However fully fed, he has taken on the strongest pre-abstract entities in the Marvel Universe, including Mephisto in his own realm. Someone will have to find this scan, or I can look it up later, but I believe Galactus has beaten Dark or White Phoenix, but did not want to destroy her because it would wipe out all life across the universe. There is a forum somewhere of Jean Grey vs. Galactus that covers a lot of good points here.

That being said, the Phoenix itself puts everyone else to shame. Even a fully fed Galactus could not compete with the full power of the Phoenix itself.

However, we were looking for the strongest POWER not the strongest ENTITIY. So overall I think if we look at the wielders of the Power Cosmic and their OVERALL power, and compare that to the likes of the avatars who wield the Phoenix Force, and the people who tap into the Speed Force, I believe the OVERALL strength of the Power Cosmic wielders wins this. I don't doubt the power of the Speed Force, but realistically it only gives its wielders one ability, compared to the Power Cosmic and Phoenix Force which grants matter manipulation, energy manipulation, flight, telekinesis, telepathy (not 100% on that one, but all the wielders of both seem to have it so I am assuming), godly levels of durability, strength, regeneration, and speed.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

The speed force is connected to everything that ever was. Thawne explains the working of the speed force, and says it's connected to the very fabric of reality itself. The speed force is time, apparently.

The PF maybe.

1) Power Cosmic

2) Phoenix Force

3) Speed Force

@Floopay said:

Power Cosmic to me wins as a power. Everyone who has it is well above and beyond in every aspect, and the sheer number of people who wield it and their level of strength is undeniable. Galactus himself when he's been fed and fully fueled his power cosmic, can contend with even the strongest avatar of the Phoenix. A hungry Galactus has been beat by Rachel Grey which is an argument that will be used here at some point. However fully fed, he has taken on the strongest pre-abstract entities in the Marvel Universe, including Mephisto in his own realm. Someone will have to find this scan, or I can look it up later, but I believe Galactus has beaten Dark or White Phoenix, but did not want to destroy her because it would wipe out all life across the universe. There is a forum somewhere of Jean Grey vs. Galactus that covers a lot of good points here.

That being said, the Phoenix itself puts everyone else to shame. Even a fully fed Galactus could not compete with the full power of the Phoenix itself.

However, we were looking for the strongest POWER not the strongest ENTITIY. So overall I think if we look at the wielders of the Power Cosmic and their OVERALL power, and compare that to the likes of the avatars who wield the Phoenix Force, and the people who tap into the Speed Force, I believe the OVERALL strength of the Power Cosmic wielders wins this. I don't doubt the power of the Speed Force, but realistically it only gives its wielders one ability, compared to the Power Cosmic and Phoenix Force which grants matter manipulation, energy manipulation, flight, telekinesis, telepathy (not 100% on that one, but all the wielders of both seem to have it so I am assuming), godly levels of durability, strength, regeneration, and speed.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

If the goal is to see which is the strongest force and not the strongest entity, why are you basing the winner on users, when you admit that Galactus can't compete with the full power of the Phoenix? Phoenix force in it's native form is not an entity, it is a force that can gain sentience. He didn't beat Dark or White Phoenix. It was Rachel he tried to remove the Phoenix from. They didn't fight, he sent Nova to Earth, Rachel flung Nova into him, knocking him over and then she just surrendered herself because fighting him would put her friends and Earth at risk. So if a host just simply lays down and lets him do things to her, then yeah I guess you can count that, but then in a later issue when she decided to fight him, she won the power struggle, and as he said that struggle had him near death.

Well if we are talking complete control, i would say power cosmic.

@nickthedevil said:

The speed force is connected to everything that ever was. Thawne explains the working of the speed force, and says it's connected to the very fabric of reality itself. The speed force is time, apparently.

I dont see how that differs from Phoenix Force or The Power Cosmic (Cosmos, universe?)

Power cosmic on panel has been stated to be the building block of the universe, the very foundation of fabric of time and space. Its about who has how much control. Silver surfer has power cosmic, Galactus has power cosmic and so does LT (after all he's been called the cosmic judge).

Phoenix force is the power of creation of sentient life. Everything sentient is somehow connected to phoenix force.

So they're all the same crap? Lol... I never liked Cosmic marvel, so i can't say anything in this thread... Just put my two cents in (and i need a higher post count)

@Killemall said:

Well if we are talking complete control, i would say power cosmic.

@nickthedevil said:

The speed force is connected to everything that ever was. Thawne explains the working of the speed force, and says it's connected to the very fabric of reality itself. The speed force is time, apparently.

I dont see how that differs from Phoenix Force or The Power Cosmic (Cosmos, universe?)

Power cosmic on panel has been stated to be the building block of the universe, the very foundation of fabric of time and space. Its about who has how much control. Silver surfer has power cosmic, Galactus has power cosmic and so does LT (after all he's been called the cosmic judge).

Phoenix force is the power of creation of sentient life. Everything sentient is somehow connected to phoenix force.

I thought the cosmic power is supposed to be different than the cosmic energy that other cosmics use in that is seems to be exclusively a Galactus/herald thing, like how the elders use the power primordial or whatever it's called. I think it has more to do with where the energy is from that determines what kind of energy it is, the power primordial is left over big bang energy, the cosmic energy that cosmics, eternals and Havok use is just the ambient energy in the universe, and Silver Surfer by way of the power cosmic can manipulate that energy too. If what the Silver Surfer says about the astral plane being the source of the Power Cosmic is true then technically the true source of the power is the Phoenix because the Phoenix is the nexus of psi energy that makes up the astral plane.

@Floopay: it gives it's weilders WAY more than just one power. The only problem is that Wally and Barry never reached it's full potential because of the destructive Capabilities. Professor Zoom, however, does do this and earns the ability to: Remove himself from the timeline altogether (which in itself means immortality, even if you were to go back in time and kill him as a child), time/life stealing (exactly what it sounds like, taking youth, years, and memories from people) shapeshifting, a small healing factor, constructs... And the full potential is never reached, because Thawne gets stabbed in the back (biggest load of PIS ever)

Speed Force Because I'm a fanboy(P

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@Killemall said:

Well if we are talking complete control, i would say power cosmic.

@nickthedevil said:

The speed force is connected to everything that ever was. Thawne explains the working of the speed force, and says it's connected to the very fabric of reality itself. The speed force is time, apparently.

I dont see how that differs from Phoenix Force or The Power Cosmic (Cosmos, universe?)

Power cosmic on panel has been stated to be the building block of the universe, the very foundation of fabric of time and space. Its about who has how much control. Silver surfer has power cosmic, Galactus has power cosmic and so does LT (after all he's been called the cosmic judge).

Phoenix force is the power of creation of sentient life. Everything sentient is somehow connected to phoenix force.

I thought the cosmic power is supposed to be different than the cosmic energy that other cosmics use in that is seems to be exclusively a Galactus/herald thing, like how the elders use the power primordial or whatever it's called. I think it has more to do with where the energy is from that determines what kind of energy it is, the power primordial is left over big bang energy, the cosmic energy that cosmics, eternals and Havok use is just the ambient energy in the universe, and Silver Surfer by way of the power cosmic can manipulate that energy too. If what the Silver Surfer says about the astral plane being the source of the Power Cosmic is true then technically the true source of the power is the Phoenix because the Phoenix is the nexus of psi energy that makes up the astral plane.

Actually, wrong on both accounts. the Silver Surfer was right about the astral plane being "made" of the power cosmic. but cosmic energy and the power cosmic are that same things. and no the Phoenix is not the true source of the power cosmic (Galactus has been said many times to be the Power Cosmic in its totality) so unless the Phoenix is a part of Galactus (and not the other way around, because that would just be silly) than it has nothing to do with to Power Cosmic or the Astral plane. in fact there was an older comic (may not be cannon) that said that the phoenix was the missing part of Galactus that caused his endless hunger. (feel free to look it up if you like)

by the way, you should all ignore Lordofallhumans. he is a Phoenix Fan-Boy and a Troll. it doesn't matter how many times you prove him wrong he will never concede. in fact he has post his BS on every Phoenix battle this site has.

Don't get me wrong i think the Phoenix Force might have an advantage over the Power Cosmic but at the moment I'm leaning toward the Power Cosmic because of Flooplay's statement. But it would be nice to hear some more arguments for the Speed Force

@The__One__Above__All said:

Actually, wrong on both accounts. the Silver Surfer was right about the astral plane being "made" of the power cosmic. but cosmic energy and the power cosmic are that same things. and no the Phoenix is not the true source of the power cosmic (Galactus has been said many times to be the Power Cosmic in its totality) so unless the Phoenix is a part of Galactus (and not the other way around, because that would just be silly) than it has nothing to do with to Power Cosmic or the Astral plane. in fact there was an older comic (may not be cannon) that said that the phoenix was the missing part of Galactus that caused his endless hunger. (feel free to look it up if you like)

by the way, you should all ignore Lordofallhumans. he is a Phoenix Fan-Boy and a Troll. it doesn't matter how many times you prove him wrong he will never concede. in fact he has post his BS on every Phoenix battle this site has.

Don't get me wrong i think the Phoenix Force might have an advantage over the Power Cosmic but at the moment I'm leaning toward the Power Cosmic because of Flooplay's statement. But it would be nice to hear some more arguments for the Speed Force

Well i agree that cosmic energy and power cosmic would be the same thing. From what I understand power cosmic is the ability to manipulate cosmic energy and any other form of energy.

However, Galactus cannot be power cosmic in totallity, why because there is a being more powerful than Galactus who uses power cosmic as well, namely Krovac. I am sure there have been other characters too, none come to mind atm. So no Galactus has power cosmic, manipulates it on a grander scale but he isnt the entire power cosmic.

Also if i remember correctly Silver surfer said Astral Plane is the source of his powers, not that astral plane is made of power cosmic, if anything it has been stated that power cosmic is the building block of the whole cosmos. What Lord of all human has been arguing is Phoenix Force is the most powerful psionic entity in existence in marvel universe and those are related to astral plane as well.

Well no disrespect intended but i have had many conversation with Lord of all Human, and he seems very well versed with X-men universe and i dont think he's a fanboy or troll, he always comes up with excellent examples and have posted scans in more occasions than one. Dont judge him based on one or two conversation you might have had, he's a very good debator.

@The__One__Above__All: Well the Phoenix force is the reason Galactus came to be.

@Butcher_Pete:

Thats a little different. The Phoenix saved him so that he could combine with eternity, but i was referring to a different story line that came out before that was revealed.

@Killemall:

I've only debated him twice myself. but I have read several of he's debates prior to that and i must say that if he is not a Troll or Fan-Boy then i have never met one (which is possible but unlikely)

and he just argued that the Phoenix Force was the source of Galactus power, and in a different thread he tried to debate that Nate Grey was not as powerful as the Weakest Phoenix Avatar (despite it being stated in the comics more than once) i even posted a scan of Moira saying that is was Dark Phoenix and he still denied it. (check the Print in the yellow bubble)

@CitizenBane said:

The PF is sentient and capable of independent action. The other two.......

How powerful does the

Phoenix Force make you?

The Power Cosmic?

The Speedster Force?

This is very Simple.
Phoenix Force is the greatest of the three
Power Cosmic is second 
The Ridiculous Speedforce is third.
 
The reason the Phoenix force is first is because it all the psionic powers that has or will ever exist in all Realities
Power cosmic as explained by the silver surfer gets it's power from the Astral plane in that universe, which is essentially where an untold amount of psionic energy is, but because of the amount of energy accessible isn't as great this makes The Power cosmos lesser than the Phoenix force. Which Pulls it's powers from everywhere..
Speedforce, very lame reason flash and any speedster goes fast (I like it when they exampled his powers with lighting, and chemicals, not a magical speedentity), which at one point because of the Crisis's there was only one universe so i don't even know the reach of this.  It seems universal and not multiversal at all, also the fact it doesn't exist outside of the dc uni. The Power cosmic and Phoenix as far as powers go, are far more diverse and encompass a whole range of powers the speedforce can't even touch.  also the speedforce has to be somewhat conscious because it takes on Host, also it pulls people into it, but that part doesn't really seem apparent really at all.

@Butcher_Pete said:

@The__One__Above__All: Well the Phoenix force is the reason Galactus came to be.

Not true, that's a rumor that should be erased. Galan was able to become Galactus because of the Infinity Being, not the Phoenix Force.

1. Power Cosmic
2. Pheonix Force
3. Speed Force

I think the speed force would come last but The Phoenix force and The Power Cosmic are debatable. You could argue that the phoenix force is multi-versal but seeing that there seems to be a Galacti in every reality it could be said that the Power Cosmic spans the multiverse. Now someone said that Korvac was more powerful than Galactus seeing that we have never seen a full powered Galactus that is debatable.

I think i read something that said that said The power Cosmic and Galactus were one, which in my mind would be very similar to Jean and the Pheonixs relationship. So if your were to use the Phoenix Forces strongest Medium and the Power Cosmics strongest medium as measuring sticks I think the Power Cosmic would win. If you were to use The highest level feats the power sources were used for as measuring sticks I would give a slight edge to the Phoenix Force.

I Think the Phoenix Force takes this in terms of power. In it's purest form, it is prime universal force of life, derived from the psyches of all living beings. it is a force; the force itself is not a cosmic being and is sustained by life's fury cycle; the force itself in its natural state as the force of life, creation, death destruction and resurrection). However, in order for that force to manifest into the physical realm (the phoenix lives beyond all reality and the universe itself; it resides in the white hot room), it must tap into the limitless source of energy originally intended for the unborn; which denies countless souls from being born.Galactus even says that his reserves are limited, in which he must feed on planets..while the power of the phoenix is sustained almost indefinitely. This is why the Phoenix then manifest itself to this magnificent bird of fire composed of pure psionic energy; it is also the nexus or the reservoir of all psionic energy in the multiverse, the source of it all, that has existed, is currently existing, and will ever exist in all realities of the multiverse; psionic energy is what gives life to sentient beings and its entire composition are all the ambient energies of creation, which fuels the very stars, which is why the phoenix is dubbed the mother of stars. The Phoenix is even stated to tap into the elemental forces of the universe because she is a part of it all, they depend on her...

Remember...The Phoenix Force is associated with the Big Bang of the Universe. It was created moments before Genesis, said to

be the flame that scorched the heavens, bringing forth light to what has been infinite darkness. Basically, it is the power that spread the ambient energies of creation all across the universe bringing everything into the fold creating life and sentience: stars, matter, planets, etc etc from what has been an endless void. If you guys remember from science class, the Big Bang is all of the energy that will ever be created in one universe. All of it! and it has been proven that the Phoenix is the power behind this. "the spark". In this sense, I think it would be safe to say that the Phoenix Force is a tier or two above the Power Cosmic.

Now just because the power of the phoenix is this supreme multiversal power, does not mean that the wielder are granted the full might of the Phoenix's glory. The application of the phoenix's power by the users is limited by many different things including: the strength of the character, experience, skill, WILLPOWER, and the connection of the force itself. So the high highs and the low lows shown by the phoenix is based on the AVATAR alone and not the power itself because the power itself is multiversal and on a higher-end scale than the power cosmic because of such things shown

-being a multiversal force

- the ambient energies that universes/multiverses are composed of (big bang)

-the power to maintain the devestating multiversal powers of the m'kraan crystal. (jean grey)

-the power to manipulate entire universes/erase timelines/restructure or heal realities. (jean grey)

-The power that connected all realities of the multiverse to Otherworld. (necrom

-The power to project a tower across the multiverse, compressing all realities of the multiverse into

a singularity. (necrom)

- tap into the elemental forces of the universe (rachel grey)

I give the Phoenix force the edge

this is simply my opinion the way I see it

@Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe: A rumor... supported by the comic where it specifically states that...

Phoenix Force is #1 then.

To me, the easiest way to determine which force is greater would be to measure the effects through any given wielder.

I'd say that puts the speed force at the bottom of the list.

Which leaves feats to determie the final two. While the Phoenix force has afforded it's avatars tremendous destructive power, the power cosmic is responsible for laying waste to far more.

Power cosmic for the win.

@Malevolent1:

what is the highest feat has the power cosmic performed?

@Malevolent1 said:

To me, the easiest way to determine which force is greater would be to measure the effects through any given wielder.

I'd say that puts the speed force at the bottom of the list.

Which leaves feats to determie the final two. While the Phoenix force has afforded it's avatars tremendous destructive power, the power cosmic is responsible for laying waste to far more.

Power cosmic for the win.

Any given wielder would also include White Phoenix, and as much as people may hate it, the amputation and erasure of a timeline and the simultaneous materialization and manipulation of every atom in the universe through direct application of power trumps anything wielders of the Power Cosmic have in the destructive power and manipulation of the physical world departments, unless there is something I don't know about, please feel free to correct me. Galactus and all his heralds were in the universe, and future versions of them were erased with that timeline.

Each universal avatar of the Phoenix is a potential universe buster just waiting to happen, and White Phoenix is more powerful than all of them combined, as shown when a Vulcan entered the White Hot Room and took all the power from those avatars and White Phoenix simply cut him off.

Phoenix Force for the win.

@Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe said:

1) Power Cosmic

2) Phoenix Force

3) Speed Force

I'd say Pheonix Force

Then Power Cosmic

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Then Speed Force

speed force is nothing in the cosmic scale. just look at it this way. even at the speed of light, it takes years to travel from earth to just the nearest star.

so either phoenix force or power cosmic takes this

What about the Darkforce?

@Butcher_Pete said:

@Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe: A rumor... supported by the comic where it specifically states that...

Which is refuted by on-panel evidence of Galan being saved by the Infinity Being, not the Phoenix Force.

PHOENIX FORCE:

After considering the arguments here I'm going to say Power Cosmic, then Phoenix Force , then Speed Force. It looks close between the Phoenix and Power Cosmic but no Phoenix Avatar can match the Ultimate Nullifier (which can erase or create universes at the press of a button and is a part of the Power Cosmic).

I'm willing to change my mind if anyone can offer evidence that the White Phoenix is more powerful than the Ultimate Nullifier or that the Nullifier can't do what i think it can (and i have scans so that would be strange). but other wise the Power Cosmic wins.

@CitizenBanesaid:

The PF is sentient and capable of independent action. The other two.......

This

The Speed Force is Sentient as well, and Galactus is stated to be the Power Cosmic itself on several occasions. Not to mention that this isn't a fight, its about which power is better. So how is being a sentient power relevant?

@The__One__Above__All said:

The Speed Force is Sentient as well, and Galactus is stated to be the Power Cosmic itself on several occasions. Not to mention that this isn't a fight, its about which power is better. So how is being a sentient power relevant?

I didn't know that but it doesn't change anything. Phoenix powered jean gray has defeated galactus so Phoenix Force>Power Cosmic>Speed Force.

The power cosmic is easily the weakest, it is in canon as the limited power of one guy versus the unlimited power of the other 2 drawing on the power of life and movement itself.

@The__One__Above__All said:

The Speed Force is Sentient as well, and Galactus is stated to be the Power Cosmic itself on several occasions. Not to mention that this isn't a fight, its about which power is better. So how is being a sentient power relevant?

If Galactus is power cosmic in totality, that would make Thanos as well as the celestials and fulcrum a part of Galactus.

Galactus is a living embodiment of the power cosmic (not the full power cosmic), to keep it in simple terms power cosmic is the energy of the universe and many people use the same power including Galactus who's entire body is made of up power cosmic.

@Dextersinister said:

The power cosmic is easily the weakest, it is in canon as the limited power of one guy versus the unlimited power of the other 2 drawing on the power of life and movement itself.

Not true, Eternal 07-13 explains power cosmic being the source of Fulcrum's power as well, and it was using this power he created and animated the Celestial, Thor: Black Galaxy Saga would stand to reason this takes place in the Black Galaxy.

Galactus cant be the all of power cosmic at all, that would make Celestial, Fulcrum, Thanos all a part of Galactus.

Also if he is the whole cosmic energy, why does he have to eat planet in order to gain energy?

1. Phoenix force/power cosmic 2. Power cosmic/phoenix force 4. Speed force (u only run with it)

Once again a new user bumps a thread that isn't a battle and shouldn't be bumped.

phoenix force

power cosmic

speed force

also .. not really a thread to bump

@shalomzy159: How did you get from 2 to 4 ?

Power Cosmic is the power that all the big names of the Universe use, Eternity, Infinity, Death, Oblivion, Galactus, etc. the heralds of Galactus are granted a portion of that power but at full force the Power Cosmic is the strongest followed closesly by the Phoenix Force at full power then the Speed Force which is sort of on a slightly lower tier.

@themagicstik: i have heard the power cosmic IS cosmic power, galactus just says it backwards most probably to sound special. can you confirm this?