Sise-Neg vs Chaos King

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

Before I answer, allow me to summon Shuma-Gorath with this chant.

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1. Wiki DOES NOT explain 50 years of detailed history. Wiki is only used for short summary and limited cited references. If you don't know how to use wiki the right way, then don't use it.
2. How old are you? Where you living in the 60's when word "multiverse" never existed in mainstream medias?
3. The multiverse was created right after Genesis and "What-if" comics were created. (The 1st hint of a multiverse was through What-If comics)
4. The Multiverse DID NOT exist. Time was Linear........ Look it up. Linear Time vs Non-Linear Time. This is how Genesis defeated Shuma-Gorath. Through Time while it was Linear. When Sise-Neg absorbed all power of Past, Present and Future, he used it to create Probability within the TIME STREAM. This caused new time lines to be created through cause and effect. Secret War, the Infinity War, HOM, Chaos War, Fear Itself, and all other major arc after Genesis (BUT 7 Sphere War) is all caused by the effects of Shuma-Gorath and Sise-Neg.

Not sure why you are pretending to have some good theory. Firstly, Marvel Premier 13 and 14 are from the 70s. Secondly, the only bio he has every appeared in Official Handbook of Marvel Universe Masters Edition 02 was in 1991 well after the term multiverse was created and yet it clearly puts his feat on universe.

And time being liner vs non-liner is just a cop out. If marvel did not have a multiverse, why on god's name are you claiming Sise Neg created the multiverse then? And if the universe later spawn to a multiverse, it has nothing to do with Sise Neg. Furthemore, its all your logic, without anything to back up in the comics.

And about Sise-Neg absorbing past, present, and future MYSTICAL ENERGIES (not entire timeline) is perfectly in line with him trying to be the most powerful mage in the universe.

Spare me the drama and your own theory without any basis, if you have anything to show Sise Neg created a multiverse present it. Else i am accepting whats expressely on comic AND the bio.

On panel evidence >>>>> A fan's ranting, sorry thats just the way it is.

@Killemall said:

Not sure why you are pretending to have some good theory. Firstly, Marvel Premier 13 and 14 are from the 70s. Secondly, the only bio he has every appeared in Official Handbook of Marvel Universe Masters Edition 02 was in 1991 well after the term multiverse was created and yet it clearly puts his feat on universe.

And time being liner vs non-liner is just a cop out. If marvel did not have a multiverse, why on god's name are you claiming Sise Neg created the multiverse then? And if the universe later spawn to a multiverse, it has nothing to do with Sise Neg. Furthemore, its all your logic, without anything to back up in the comics.

And about Sise-Neg absorbing past, present, and future MYSTICAL ENERGIES (not entire timeline) is perfectly in line with him trying to be the most powerful mage in the universe.

Spare me the drama and your own theory without any basis, if you have anything to show Sise Neg created a multiverse present it. Else i am accepting whats expressely on comic AND the bio.

On panel evidence >>>>> A fan's ranting, sorry thats just the way it is.

@Killemall said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

Before I answer, allow me to summon Shuma-Gorath with this chant.

Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan. Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Jackie Chan Chan chan.

1. Wiki DOES NOT explain 50 years of detailed history. Wiki is only used for short summary and limited cited references. If you don't know how to use wiki the right way, then don't use it.
2. How old are you? Where you living in the 60's when word "multiverse" never existed in mainstream medias?
3. The multiverse was created right after Genesis and "What-if" comics were created. (The 1st hint of a multiverse was through What-If comics)
4. The Multiverse DID NOT exist. Time was Linear........ Look it up. Linear Time vs Non-Linear Time. This is how Genesis defeated Shuma-Gorath. Through Time while it was Linear. When Sise-Neg absorbed all power of Past, Present and Future, he used it to create Probability within the TIME STREAM. This caused new time lines to be created through cause and effect. Secret War, the Infinity War, HOM, Chaos War, Fear Itself, and all other major arc after Genesis (BUT 7 Sphere War) is all caused by the effects of Shuma-Gorath and Sise-Neg.

Not sure why you are pretending to have some good theory. Firstly, Marvel Premier 13 and 14 are from the 70s. Secondly, the only bio he has every appeared in Official Handbook of Marvel Universe Masters Edition 02 was in 1991 well after the term multiverse was created and yet it clearly puts his feat on universe.

And time being liner vs non-liner is just a cop out. If marvel did not have a multiverse, why on god's name are you claiming Sise Neg created the multiverse then? And if the universe later spawn to a multiverse, it has nothing to do with Sise Neg. Furthemore, its all your logic, without anything to back up in the comics.

And about Sise-Neg absorbing past, present, and future MYSTICAL ENERGIES (not entire timeline) is perfectly in line with him trying to be the most powerful mage in the universe.

Spare me the drama and your own theory without any basis, if you have anything to show Sise Neg created a multiverse present it. Else i am accepting whats expressely on comic AND the bio.

On panel evidence >>>>> A fan's ranting, sorry thats just the way it is.

All of us already have presented you the panels and the issues, but it is YOU who can not grasp the context....

I can not say what hasn't been said to you a million times before nor show you since you always ignore it. And it's not just from me, but other people that has debated to about this issue already.

If you wish to keep a close mind to every discussion you question then that, my friend, is YOUR LOSS. Not ours.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

All of us already have presented you the panels and the issues, but it is YOU who can not grasp the context....

I can not say what hasn't been said to you a million times before nor show you since you always ignore it. And it's not just from me, but other people that has debated to about this issue already.

If you wish to keep a close mind to every discussion you question then that, my friend, is YOUR LOSS. Not ours.

Firstly, stop writing something on big text, doesnt change the weight of words.

Secondly, panels, scans i have presented myself as well, including a bio. Both of which says universe, you are pretending otherwise is childish. Either comes up with something that remotely elludes what he created as a multiverse, something the issue as well as the bio directly contracts, or stop accusing someone for being close minded, when i am following both issue and bio, as it as , to the letter.

@Shuma-Gorath said:

No need to highlight and capitalize "mystical energies" as you did not make a point there. The absorption of the mystical energies from a timeline allowed Sise-Neg complete domination over said timeline/universe, as with these mystical energies he was given full control over all Time and Space, which is why Doctor Strange's body started to disappear completely when trying to use magic in prehistoric times.

Firstly awesome post, i agree on few things not on the other.

1. The mystical energies was bolded because 7am was elluding Sise Neg absorbed all of past present and future, which is not true, all he absorbed was mystical energy in the universe, across various times.

2. It was said that once he absorbed all mystical energy, then he would have total control over time and space, which is universe, and was referred to as universe in both issues and bios.

The evidence on panel shows Sise-Neg having multiversal influence simply for what he was shown doing - - absorbing from multiple timelines starting from his future timeline down to the void before the Big Bang that created the multiverse. You cannot accept that Sise-Neg created the multiverse and cannot accept that the story involved more than The Universe because the world "multiverse" was never explicitly stated. It does not matter to you that Sise-Neg stated he would have control over "the universeand beyond" or that Sise-Neg was absorbing energy from a void completely outside his own universe even before godhood or that Sise-Neg showed beyond universal effect by weakening exocentric magic spells that used dimensional entities as a source of power, which clearly showed Sise-Neg to be beyond universal in significance. You still wish to cramp the story down to a single universe.

Was Sise-Neg shows to be above universal in power level? Absolutely. He was manipulating mystical energies from him universe and beyond (void). Was he truely multiverse, unlikely, given his influence was limited to unvierse and the void.

I cannot accept Sise-Neg created the multiverse because on panel and on bio it was explicitly stated to being universe, and multiverse was not created 5 years after his series ended.

Then the second bolded part, i have never disputed. In fact, look over my last reply to you, i have never denied Sise Neg was likely above universal in power level, in fact the first comment i had against Mighty_Beyonder was how would you put a cap on his powers level when we dont have anything even eluding what his limits will be. That being said, what i did not agree then and what do not agree now is what he created was any more than a universe. His on panel feat was creation of universe and NOT the multiverse.

On line with you want to cramp it down to a single universe, Marvel only had single universe at that time, so i dont see how could have created and de-created a universe that never existed before or did not exist 5 years after he story arc.

However - - it is FACT that shortly after the Big Bang signifies Marvel's past - - All timelines aka universes located in the past are separate from the prime (616) universe - - All future timelines are located in another universe as well. This is definitive proof that "Sise-Neg Genesis" was much greater than universal in scope and that Sise-Neg had absorbed far beyond a single universe. But due to Steve Englehart using the term Universe to encompass everything, it left many, including yourself, confused.

The bolded part i do not agree, at all. I have never once seen Marvel explain that various timelines from 616 were seperate creating multiple universe. Multiples universe were created when someone went back in time line, and changed it. Like what Legion did, like what Korvac did, like what Scott did. That has nothing to do with Sise Neg nor should it be and not his feat.

And no there is nothing after Sise Neg Genesis shows that it was multivere that he created, had it been so a bio written 20 years after his story arc would have addressed it as multiversal rather than a unvierse. They have dont that to the destruction of M'kraan Crystal in the past, while panel said universe, bio later states it to be multiverse, which i understand. That is why even in the previous post i said if you can show me 1 bio where his feat has later been explained as multiverse i am happy to accept. However after that i looked up his appearance and his only bio is Master Edition 2, which says unvierse, the scan has even been posted to you.

In summary what i am saying:

1. Sise-Neg's power was likely above universal, in fact we have seem absolutely nothing that shows or can be used to put a limit on him.

2. His on panel, greatest feat (alonside being able to over-powers bonds of eyes of aggamato, was re-creating a universe, in fact he himself said he change nothing and let the universe be born as it was). A multiverse was later spawned out of the same universe, and given his own , on panel statement, the multiverse would have been born with or without his interference, after all he said he did not change anything. I do not see why that feat has to be attributed to him.

@Killemall said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

All of us already have presented you the panels and the issues, but it is YOU who can not grasp the context....

I can not say what hasn't been said to you a million times before nor show you since you always ignore it. And it's not just from me, but other people that has debated to about this issue already.

If you wish to keep a close mind to every discussion you question then that, my friend, is YOUR LOSS. Not ours.

Firstly, stop writing something on big text, doesnt change the weight of words.

Secondly, panels, scans i have presented myself as well, including a bio. Both of which says universe, you are pretending otherwise is childish. Either comes up with something that remotely elludes what he created as a multiverse, something the issue as well as the bio directly contracts, or stop accusing someone for being close minded, when i am following both issue and bio, as it as , to the letter.

@Shuma-Gorath said:

No need to highlight and capitalize "mystical energies" as you did not make a point there. The absorption of the mystical energies from a timeline allowed Sise-Neg complete domination over said timeline/universe, as with these mystical energies he was given full control over all Time and Space, which is why Doctor Strange's body started to disappear completely when trying to use magic in prehistoric times.

Firstly awesome post, i agree on few things not on the other.

1. The mystical energies was bolded because 7am was elluding Sise Neg absorbed all of past present and future, which is not true, all he absorbed was mystical energy in the universe, across various times.

2. It was said that once he absorbed all mystical energy, then he would have total control over time and space, which is universe, and was referred to as universe in both issues and bios.

The evidence on panel shows Sise-Neg having multiversal influence simply for what he was shown doing - - absorbing from multiple timelines starting from his future timeline down to the void before the Big Bang that created the multiverse. You cannot accept that Sise-Neg created the multiverse and cannot accept that the story involved more than The Universe because the world "multiverse" was never explicitly stated. It does not matter to you that Sise-Neg stated he would have control over "the universeand beyond" or that Sise-Neg was absorbing energy from a void completely outside his own universe even before godhood or that Sise-Neg showed beyond universal effect by weakening exocentric magic spells that used dimensional entities as a source of power, which clearly showed Sise-Neg to be beyond universal in significance. You still wish to cramp the story down to a single universe.

Was Sise-Neg shows to be above universal in power level? Absolutely. He was manipulating mystical energies from him universe and beyond (void). Was he truely multiverse, unlikely, given his influence was limited to unvierse and the void.

I cannot accept Sise-Neg created the multiverse because on panel and on bio it was explicitly stated to being universe, and multiverse was not created 5 years after his series ended.

Then the second bolded part, i have never disputed. In fact, look over my last reply to you, i have never denied Sise Neg was likely above universal in power level, in fact the first comment i had against Mighty_Beyonder was how would you put a cap on his powers level when we dont have anything even eluding what his limits will be. That being said, what i did not agree then and what do not agree now is what he created was any more than a universe. His on panel feat was creation of universe and NOT the multiverse.

On line with you want to cramp it down to a single universe, Marvel only had single universe at that time, so i dont see how could have created and de-created a universe that never existed before or did not exist 5 years after he story arc.

However - - it is FACT that shortly after the Big Bang signifies Marvel's past - - All timelines aka universes located in the past are separate from the prime (616) universe - - All future timelines are located in another universe as well. This is definitive proof that "Sise-Neg Genesis" was much greater than universal in scope and that Sise-Neg had absorbed far beyond a single universe. But due to Steve Englehart using the term Universe to encompass everything, it left many, including yourself, confused.

The bolded part i do not agree, at all. I have never once seen Marvel explain that various timelines from 616 were seperate creating multiple universe. Multiples universe were created when someone went back in time line, and changed it. Like what Legion did, like what Korvac did, like what Scott did. That has nothing to do with Sise Neg nor should it be and not his feat.

And no there is nothing after Sise Neg Genesis shows that it was multivere that he created, had it been so a bio written 20 years after his story arc would have addressed it as multiversal rather than a unvierse. They have dont that to the destruction of M'kraan Crystal in the past, while panel said universe, bio later states it to be multiverse, which i understand. That is why even in the previous post i said if you can show me 1 bio where his feat has later been explained as multiverse i am happy to accept. However after that i looked up his appearance and his only bio is Master Edition 2, which says unvierse, the scan has even been posted to you.

In summary what i am saying:

1. Sise-Neg's power was likely above universal, in fact we have seem absolutely nothing that shows or can be used to put a limit on him.

2. His on panel, greatest feat (alonside being able to over-powers bonds of eyes of aggamato, was re-creating a universe, in fact he himself said he change nothing and let the universe be born as it was). A multiverse was later spawned out of the same universe, and given his own , on panel statement, the multiverse would have been born with or without his interference, after all he said he did not change anything. I do not see why that feat has to be attributed to him.

Sounds totally right to me.

I'll take the guy that recreated everything (Genesis) with a Big Bang that created the multiversal abstracts over a mere aspect of Oblivion (Chaos King).

Genesis has never been once explained as a reason for creation of any Abstract,nor has any bio regarded him as such.

Furthermore, a mere aspect of Oblivion, Malestrom, stood up to IG when the same IG later incapaciated a bunch of abstract being in a whim.

So that sounds like a very weak reasoning

@Killemall said:

Genesis has never been once explained as a reason for creation of any Abstract,nor has any bio regarded him as such.

Furthermore, a mere aspect of Oblivion, Malestrom, stood up to IG when the same IG later incapaciated a bunch of abstract being in a whim.

So that sounds like a very weak reasoning

Thanos tagged him once and then Maelstrom reappared again and then disappeared. Thanos was still a noobie at using the Infinity Gauntlet which is how that was able to happen.

The original Big Bang created by the Infinity Being gave birth to all the multiversal abstracts. Sise-Neg replicated the very same Big Bang. Strange was even trying to come to the conclusion of whether he saw the first or second creation. And by Sise-Neg's admission he recreated everything exactly as it was, meaning he recreated the abstracts that were created by the first time the universe was spawned.

And we know they were spawned by the Big Bang because of this...

And notice how the word "universe" is used each time.

@MagneticTempest said:

Thanos tagged him once and then Maelstrom reappared again and then disappeared. Thanos was still a noobie at using the Infinity Gauntlet which is how that was able to happen.

That seemed like a very weak reasoning. Thanos was full aware of what individual gems were capable of, and hence why he went to collect every of them. Furthermore, the moment he gained the gauntlet he was stated to be god. Not seeing how just because this happens before his fight with abstract makes him a noobie.

The original Big Bang created by the Infinity Being gave birth to all the multiversal abstracts. Sise-Neg replicated the very same Big Bang. Strange was even trying to come to the conclusion of whether he saw the first or second creation. And by Sise-Neg's admission he recreated everything exactly as it was, meaning he recreated the abstracts that were created by the first time the universe was spawned.

And we know they were spawned by the Big Bang because of this...

And notice how the word "universe" is used each time.

I am not sure if you are aware, there has been another more clear on panel depiction of big bang after Sise Neg, in Adventures of X-men Volume 1 Issue 12, which was shows as the reason for creation of Galactus, and every abstract were said to have reborn from the bang. I am not sure which issue this scan is from love some extra details, but this clearly seems like we are talking about Adventures of X-men as opposed to Genesis. Because it clearly says did another older universe have to die first? Universe - 92131 died in that issue, then leading to birth 616 universe

bump

Sise Neg

Sise-Neg probably because just like Nemesis he was a previous creator of the Marvel Multiverse and Chaos King was powerful, and only defeated through a good trick, but i think he cant rival creating a Multiverse.