These 4 are chilling at a bar. Surfer looks at Lobo:
Surfer "You're really white. Put out the cigar"
Lobo "F*ck off silver boy lover" Flicks cigar at Surfer.
J'onn looks at Hulk
J'onn "Salvation Army called. They want their shorts back"
Hulk "and you're bald" Throws ashtray at J'onn. Leads to instigating. They get it on!
Silver Surfer and Hulk
Vs
Martian Manhunter and Lobo
Rules:
Indestructible Hulk (Savage or Standard Hulk) and Post Annihilation Surfer
Pre-52 Martian Manhunter and Lobo
Setting:
Living Tribunal was like "Holy shizznit. These guys are about to go crazy" so he created an alternative universe with an empty Earth the size of a Red Giant
Team 2, Manhunter is far too versatile and powerful for either of Team 1 to deal with. Whoever he dispatches Lobo can delay the other one till it occurs.
Team 2, Manhunter is far too versatile and powerful for either of Team 1 to deal with. Whoever he dispatches Lobo can delay the other one till it occurs.
I don't find J'onn to be more powerful or versatile than the Surfer in the slightest, to be frank.
Team 2, Manhunter is far too versatile and powerful for either of Team 1 to deal with. Whoever he dispatches Lobo can delay the other one till it occurs.
I don't find J'onn to be more powerful or versatile than the Surfer in the slightest, to be frank.
Allow me to rephrase my previous statement; he has one power mastered to such a ridiculously high degree it would take someone with extreme mental defences to not be shut down at any point in a fight. J'onn's telepathy is a ridiculous advantage over all of Surfer's Power Cosmic, as soon as J'onn uses it, it's game over for Team 1. Neither of them can resist Pre 52 MMH's TP and Hulk has better TP resistance than Surfer. So overall I find MMH to be more powerful than Surfer even if he isn't as versatile.
Team 2, Manhunter is far too versatile and powerful for either of Team 1 to deal with. Whoever he dispatches Lobo can delay the other one till it occurs.
I don't find J'onn to be more powerful or versatile than the Surfer in the slightest, to be frank.
Allow me to rephrase my previous statement; he has one power mastered to such a ridiculously high degree it would take someone with extreme mental defences to not be shut down at any point in a fight. J'onn's telepathy is a ridiculous advantage over all of Surfer's Power Cosmic, as soon as J'onn uses it, it's game over for Team 1. Neither of them can resist Pre 52 MMH's TP and Hulk has better TP resistance than Surfer. So overall I find MMH to be more powerful than Surfer even if he isn't as versatile.
The Surfer's power is unmatched in the astral plane, presuming you subscribe to the explanation that it is the source of the power cosmic itself. Thanos called it "soul" during Annihilation, and In Thy Name confirms it. Granted, all of that is a retcon. But even in his earlier days, he did defeat Thanos in a mental duel and resisted the mind gem.
The Surfer has previously repelled the Other, an hive mind entity that mindwiped Galactus himself. I doubt J'onn is going to defeat him in the manner you describe. He has the feats to support his ability to stop him.
Hulk stomps Lobo but qiite honestly J'onn's TP is very strong. Surfer is Team 1's only chance in that regard, and by feats J'onn overtales him. Though his "infinite astral power" should in theory overcome J'onn; it never seems to work like that does it?
Team 2, Manhunter is far too versatile and powerful for either of Team 1 to deal with. Whoever he dispatches Lobo can delay the other one till it occurs.
I dunno.
Surfer can do everything Martian Manhunter can and then some. That's not to say he can do what Martian Manhunter can but better, because in some aspects Martian Manhunter does surpass Surfer, such as telepathy. I'd also argue that Surfer is more powerful overall. Though admittedly, just because Surfer is more powerful overall does not mean it's not possible for MMH to beat him, because he could.
Edit: I just saw your next post. That's what I was thinking of and trying to say. MMH has many powers, but particularly one very strong power that can help him overcome other opponents despite them being more powerful overall or versatile.
The Surfer's power is unmatched in the astral plane, presuming you subscribe to the explanation that it is the source of the power cosmic itself. Thanos called it "soul" during Annihilation, and In Thy Name confirms it. Granted, all of that is a retcon. But even in his earlier days, he did defeat Thanos in a mental duel and resisted the mind gem.
The Surfer has previously repelled the Other, an hive mind entity that mindwiped Galactus himself. I doubt J'onn is going to defeat him in the manner you describe. He has the feats to support his ability to stop him.
Any examples of Surfer being mind-controlled?
That's the problem though, it was retconned out so it no longer applies. Thanos has beaten Moondragon in a mental duel so surely Surfer beating him requires a pinch of salt.
As Highaccuser has just mentioned, Surfer just said he couldn't be drained on the Astral Plane, which is different from resisting telepathy.
I'll try and find some but J'onn has used his TP effectively and overpowered superior telepaths and reality warpers so Surfer isn't as likely to be defended from TP as they were yet J'onn still beat them telepathically.
The Surfer's power is unmatched in the astral plane, presuming you subscribe to the explanation that it is the source of the power cosmic itself. Thanos called it "soul" during Annihilation, and In Thy Name confirms it. Granted, all of that is a retcon. But even in his earlier days, he did defeat Thanos in a mental duel and resisted the mind gem.
The Surfer has previously repelled the Other, an hive mind entity that mindwiped Galactus himself. I doubt J'onn is going to defeat him in the manner you describe. He has the feats to support his ability to stop him.
Any examples of Surfer being mind-controlled?
That's the problem though, it was retconned out so it no longer applies. Thanos has beaten Moondragon in a mental duel so surely Surfer beating him requires a pinch of salt.
As Highaccuser has just mentioned, Surfer just said he couldn't be drained on the Astral Plane, which is different from resisting telepathy.
I'll try and find some but J'onn has used his TP effectively and overpowered superior telepaths and reality warpers so Surfer isn't as likely to be defended from TP as they were yet J'onn still beat them telepathically.
The retcon is actually what I stated - the power cosmic was initially unrelated to the astral plane, but after In Thy Name there is a correlation between the two, and there are enough examples of the Surfer resisting/shielding himself/reading minds to suggest he is a telepath and empath himself, all over the course of the past 15 years. Thanos defeated Moondragon in the 70s, the Surfer's match-up with him was much more visceral and relatively more recent. I should also point out that the latter was written by Ron Marz, a guy who had no qualms about having Thanos beating the Surfer in 7-8 hits in the physical plane - yet he felt a mental match is much more balanced.
He says, "you could leech me dry, out there - but this plane is the source of the power cosmic - you can't hurt me here." Verbatim.
I am well aware of J'onn's massively impressive feats, I just find that the Surfer's own would be sufficient to keep him preoccupied.
Not really. He literally says he is invulnerable there.
Do you mean while the Goddess's powers were being massively amplified during Infinity Crusade?
Psycho Man affects emotion, not the mind, unless someone retconned that.
As you say above his comment was he can't be leeched in the astral plane, which is what he meant by "hurt".
Yes but that wouldn't change your point and I think Moondragon did the same as well (him resisting her doesn't make much sense considering she immediately mind-controlled Firelord who would've been resistant for the same reason as Surfer).
Emotion is part of the mind. It's all the same and it's all telepathy.
The Surfer's power is unmatched in the astral plane, presuming you subscribe to the explanation that it is the source of the power cosmic itself. Thanos called it "soul" during Annihilation, and In Thy Name confirms it. Granted, all of that is a retcon. But even in his earlier days, he did defeat Thanos in a mental duel and resisted the mind gem.
The Surfer has previously repelled the Other, an hive mind entity that mindwiped Galactus himself. I doubt J'onn is going to defeat him in the manner you describe. He has the feats to support his ability to stop him.
Any examples of Surfer being mind-controlled?
That's the problem though, it was retconned out so it no longer applies. Thanos has beaten Moondragon in a mental duel so surely Surfer beating him requires a pinch of salt.
As Highaccuser has just mentioned, Surfer just said he couldn't be drained on the Astral Plane, which is different from resisting telepathy.
I'll try and find some but J'onn has used his TP effectively and overpowered superior telepaths and reality warpers so Surfer isn't as likely to be defended from TP as they were yet J'onn still beat them telepathically.
The retcon is actually what I stated - the power cosmic was initially unrelated to the astral plane, but after In Thy Name there is a correlation between the two, and there are enough examples of the Surfer resisting/shielding himself/reading minds to suggest he is a telepath and empath himself, all over the course of the past 15 years. Thanos defeated Moondragon in the 70s, the Surfer's match-up with him was much more visceral and relatively more recent. I should also point out that the latter was written by Ron Marz, a guy who had no qualms about having Thanos beating the Surfer in 7-8 hits in the physical plane - yet he felt a mental match is much more balanced.
He says, "you could leech me dry, out there - but this plane is the source of the power cosmic - you can't hurt me here." Verbatim.
I am well aware of J'onn's massively impressive feats, I just find that the Surfer's own would be sufficient to keep him preoccupied.
Your quote ad verbatim kind of supports the non TP interpretation. Nowhere is TP specified, The Other leeched Power Cosmic energy, not mental energy.
I don't doubt it for a second but doesn't that highlight how Surfer could only ever delay Manhunter's entry into his mind?
Not really. He literally says he is invulnerable there.
Do you mean while the Goddess's powers were being massively amplified during Infinity Crusade?
Psycho Man affects emotion, not the mind, unless someone retconned that.
As you say above his comment was he can't be leeched in the astral plane, which is what he meant by "hurt".
Yes but that wouldn't change your point and I think Moondragon did the same as well (him resisting her doesn't make much sense considering she immediately mind-controlled Firelord who would've been resistant for the same reason as Surfer).
Emotion is part of the mind. It's all the same and it's all telepathy.
His comment was that he can indeed be leeched in a physical encounter, yet trying to hurt him in the astral plane is futile since it is the source that empowers him. I find it straightforward.
It would. I don't believe the Surfer is unbeatable by any and all means in the astral plane - just that beings of higher rank in comparison to himself are capable of it. Galactus manipulated his mind and purged his reservations, and the Goddess had the cosmic egg - formed by a multitude of cosmic cubes. Both examples that are very valid for him to be overpowered. Also, not all heralds are equal, nor are feats transferable.
That is a very big stretch. Empathy and telepathy are, most assuredly, different abilities. The only real instance where the Surfer has been controlled by external forces was under a mystical curse which affected him, Namor, Hulk and Doctor Strange during the Order.
The Surfer's power is unmatched in the astral plane, presuming you subscribe to the explanation that it is the source of the power cosmic itself. Thanos called it "soul" during Annihilation, and In Thy Name confirms it. Granted, all of that is a retcon. But even in his earlier days, he did defeat Thanos in a mental duel and resisted the mind gem.
The Surfer has previously repelled the Other, an hive mind entity that mindwiped Galactus himself. I doubt J'onn is going to defeat him in the manner you describe. He has the feats to support his ability to stop him.
Any examples of Surfer being mind-controlled?
That's the problem though, it was retconned out so it no longer applies. Thanos has beaten Moondragon in a mental duel so surely Surfer beating him requires a pinch of salt.
As Highaccuser has just mentioned, Surfer just said he couldn't be drained on the Astral Plane, which is different from resisting telepathy.
I'll try and find some but J'onn has used his TP effectively and overpowered superior telepaths and reality warpers so Surfer isn't as likely to be defended from TP as they were yet J'onn still beat them telepathically.
The retcon is actually what I stated - the power cosmic was initially unrelated to the astral plane, but after In Thy Name there is a correlation between the two, and there are enough examples of the Surfer resisting/shielding himself/reading minds to suggest he is a telepath and empath himself, all over the course of the past 15 years. Thanos defeated Moondragon in the 70s, the Surfer's match-up with him was much more visceral and relatively more recent. I should also point out that the latter was written by Ron Marz, a guy who had no qualms about having Thanos beating the Surfer in 7-8 hits in the physical plane - yet he felt a mental match is much more balanced.
He says, "you could leech me dry, out there - but this plane is the source of the power cosmic - you can't hurt me here." Verbatim.
I am well aware of J'onn's massively impressive feats, I just find that the Surfer's own would be sufficient to keep him preoccupied.
Your quote ad verbatim kind of supports the non TP interpretation. Nowhere is TP specified, The Other leeched Power Cosmic energy, not mental energy.
I don't doubt it for a second but doesn't that highlight how Surfer could only ever delay Manhunter's entry into his mind?
You have the examples confused. The Other are an entity powerful enough to affect Galactus himself.
The quote is from a fight with a cosmic monster that the Surfer encountered, unrelated to the Other. He was losing physically, and he literally reached out to the astral plane and one-shotted the beast. He afterwards emerged in the astral plane again to find traces of its mind and talk to it. I cannot see how any of that does not imply mental power. Harrow bypassed Nova Prime's mental defenses casually yet the Surfer easily read its mind without struggle and dismissed it, Savior Cable had telepathy on a planetary level, communicating with every mind on Earth at once yet he could only link his mind with the Surfer's without affecting or controlling him. The examples are far too many for me to say J'onn is going to have a field day, even if he simply stands there and only uses telepathy - which is unlikely. He enjoys switching it up during his fights.
Team two due Martian's overpowered telepathic abilities regardless don't take this seriously *laughs*
I don't see the point of the tweet.
Regardless of what the writer said, it's unsubstantiated by feats. I dare say that they have no idea what they're talking about.
Some other writers via Twitter have said that Captain Atom can bust a multiverse, Larfleeze could bust a universe, Thor can bust a galaxy, and now this. All of which are nonsense, none of which are based on anything from the comics.
The Surfer's power is unmatched in the astral plane, presuming you subscribe to the explanation that it is the source of the power cosmic itself. Thanos called it "soul" during Annihilation, and In Thy Name confirms it. Granted, all of that is a retcon. But even in his earlier days, he did defeat Thanos in a mental duel and resisted the mind gem.
The Surfer has previously repelled the Other, an hive mind entity that mindwiped Galactus himself. I doubt J'onn is going to defeat him in the manner you describe. He has the feats to support his ability to stop him.
Any examples of Surfer being mind-controlled?
That's the problem though, it was retconned out so it no longer applies. Thanos has beaten Moondragon in a mental duel so surely Surfer beating him requires a pinch of salt.
As Highaccuser has just mentioned, Surfer just said he couldn't be drained on the Astral Plane, which is different from resisting telepathy.
I'll try and find some but J'onn has used his TP effectively and overpowered superior telepaths and reality warpers so Surfer isn't as likely to be defended from TP as they were yet J'onn still beat them telepathically.
The retcon is actually what I stated - the power cosmic was initially unrelated to the astral plane, but after In Thy Name there is a correlation between the two, and there are enough examples of the Surfer resisting/shielding himself/reading minds to suggest he is a telepath and empath himself, all over the course of the past 15 years. Thanos defeated Moondragon in the 70s, the Surfer's match-up with him was much more visceral and relatively more recent. I should also point out that the latter was written by Ron Marz, a guy who had no qualms about having Thanos beating the Surfer in 7-8 hits in the physical plane - yet he felt a mental match is much more balanced.
He says, "you could leech me dry, out there - but this plane is the source of the power cosmic - you can't hurt me here." Verbatim.
I am well aware of J'onn's massively impressive feats, I just find that the Surfer's own would be sufficient to keep him preoccupied.
Your quote ad verbatim kind of supports the non TP interpretation. Nowhere is TP specified, The Other leeched Power Cosmic energy, not mental energy.
I don't doubt it for a second but doesn't that highlight how Surfer could only ever delay Manhunter's entry into his mind?
You have the examples confused. The Other are an entity powerful enough to affect Galactus himself.
The quote is from a fight with a cosmic monster that the Surfer encountered, unrelated to the Other. He was losing physically, and he literally reached out to the astral plane and one-shotted the beast. He afterwards emerged in the astral plane again to find traces of its mind and talk to it. I cannot see how any of that does not imply mental power. Harrow bypassed Nova Prime's mental defenses casually yet the Surfer easily read its mind without struggle and dismissed it, Savior Cable had telepathy on a planetary level, communicating with every mind on Earth at once yet he could only link his mind with the Surfer's without affecting or controlling him. The examples are far too many for me to say J'onn is going to have a field day, even if he simply stands there and only uses telepathy - which is unlikely. He enjoys switching it up during his fights.
Whilst this does suggest Surfer might be more resistant than expected, I ultimately don't think that's enough to keep J'onn out for too long. J'onn's telepathy is at a level where he can casually weaponise the thoughts of the entire human race and throw them at another telepath as a combat strategy. That's a telepath unlike any Surfer has faced.
Gallery
Telepathy is however his main and final form of attack against an opponent so I would say there is evidence supporting J'onn's strong reliance and use of telepathy.
In my perspective, I view Surfer as Martian's superior in term of destructive force as well as in raw of powers domain. For example his clash with Morg, bear in mind Morg's easily one of the most potent Herald of Galactus if not the most powerful herald of Galan. He's literally defeated the rest of Galactus heralds and nearly killed 'em with ease yet Surfer took on and manhandled a near blood-lusted Morg, However Radd tanked everything Morg was throwing at him and then managed to put him down (by K.O) releasing a massive planetary+ busting energies as a side effect in the process which approves Surfer D.C. Regardless Surfer was unscratched while Morg was K.O'ed therefore I absolutely think Surfer is more versatile than the Manhunter. [This is one of the best Surfer's Destructive and Durability performances]
Gallery
Anyway, that doesn't prevent John from tapping into Hulk's or Surfer's minds and keep in mind, raw of power and energy output (D.C) has nothing to do with telepathy however, Martian Manhunter deadliest weapon is his telepathic abilities, he's one of the most overpowered telepathic beings in the DC universe he have proven to be capable of tapping into reality warpers minds before such as Adam a being who's connected with the God head entity [First scan => the third scan] capable of altering time and space basically he can manipulate reality, able to destroy and recreate planets by just getting angry yet Martian Mahunter was fully capable of connecting Adam's mind with his own, keeping him stable while protecting Zatanna and Gypsy, scans are taken from JLA #256-57
That's just merely one of John's most imposing feats considering the telepathic domain which is of course his specialty and his tremendous recognition over Surfer, he's also capable of manhandling him physically it's not like Surfer is going to one shot Manhunter with a punch or whatever.
His comment was that he can indeed be leeched in a physical encounter, yet trying to hurt him in the astral plane is futile since it is the source that empowers him. I find it straightforward.
It would. I don't believe the Surfer is unbeatable by any and all means in the astral plane - just that beings of higher rank in comparison to himself are capable of it. Galactus manipulated his mind and purged his reservations, and the Goddess had the cosmic egg - formed by a multitude of cosmic cubes. Both examples that are very valid for him to be overpowered. Also, not all heralds are equal, nor are feats transferable.
That is a very big stretch. Empathy and telepathy are, most assuredly, different abilities. The only real instance where the Surfer has been controlled by external forces was under a mystical curse which affected him, Namor, Hulk and Doctor Strange during the Order.
It's the source that empowers him meaning he can't be drained. It's not a sundip and even then he has no feats to put him on par with J'onn even under those conditions.
If Surfer isn't unbeatable than J'onn defeats him by feats. Moondragon controlled Surfer too there and I'm aware not all heralds are equal but the way Surfer describes his resistance all heralds would have it simply because they all got their powers the same way. Individual power wouldn't matter, Firelord had his soul replaced same as Norrin.
How exactly are they different? It's all just altering someone's mind.
Either Surfer solos or the team wins after a LONG fight. Surfer has too many abilities to be downed by Lobo, who is solely muscle. Fernus I'd assume is just MMH not holding back, but nothing he brings is anything Surfer hasn't battled. Surfer has too many cosmic powers and manipulation powers to be downed by them. Adding the Hulk, especially WBH, only gives him a chance to 100% concentrate on MMH.
Either Surfer solos or the team wins after a LONG fight. Surfer has too many abilities to be downed by Lobo, who is solely muscle. Fernus I'd assume is just MMH not holding back, but nothing he brings is anything Surfer hasn't battled. Surfer has too many cosmic powers and manipulation powers to be downed by them. Adding the Hulk, especially WBH, only gives him a chance to 100% concentrate on MMH.
Team Marvel 9/10.
Fernus had a rampage in the phantom zone, he literally slaughtered hundreds of white martians (Justice league busters). He curb stomped Superman alongside the league three times in a way Surfer can never perform. And bear in mind MMH alone is capable of defeating Surfer using just his telepathic abilities alias his deadliest weapon without engaging him in physical combat, let alone Fernus it would be a complete stomp for the DC team.
I thought Norrin was immune to, or had a HIGH tolerance to TP. Plus, isn't he much faster than Fernus? Doesn't he do matter manipulation or draining, could either/both bring down Fernus?
I thought Norrin was immune to, or had a HIGH tolerance to TP. Plus, isn't he much faster than Fernus? Doesn't he do matter manipulation or draining, could either/both bring down Fernus?
Martian Manhunter can control his molecules. He'd just turn himself back. He not powered by an external source so Norrin has nothing to drain.
I thought Norrin was immune to, or had a HIGH tolerance to TP. Plus, isn't he much faster than Fernus? Doesn't he do matter manipulation or draining, could either/both bring down Fernus?
Martian Manhunter can control his molecules. He'd just turn himself back. He not powered by an external source so Norrin has nothing to drain.
That's true, but if he were to be turned into stone (not saying SS is going to do this, just a general point), that's matter manipulation on a sub-atomic level.
I dunno if Martian Manhunter can work his way out of that.
Beyond the fact that it was a one-off feat, Surfer didn't perform it on anyone worth noting. I'm not talking about the beast being a "no name" character, but that the creature he used it on wasn't sentient, didn't even recognize the mental aspect of reality as significant, had no identifiable psychic defenses/skill, and above all, was actually barely even real, as it was an illusion created for him to fight AND for him to beat so that he would be hailed as savior. Surfer beat up an illusion that was meant to lose to him (but was still hurting him anyway). And he never actually fought the creature that made the illusion. He just avoided its attacks but never mounted any of his own. In no way is his performance on the astral plane useful when it comes to other characters.
Basically, he was losing to a being that was MEANT to lose to him, so I don't know where this invincibility in the astral plane is coming from.
I thought Norrin was immune to, or had a HIGH tolerance to TP. Plus, isn't he much faster than Fernus? Doesn't he do matter manipulation or draining, could either/both bring down Fernus?
Martian Manhunter can control his molecules. He'd just turn himself back. He not powered by an external source so Norrin has nothing to drain.
That's true, but if he were to be turned into stone (not saying SS is going to do this, just a general point), that's matter manipulation on a sub-atomic level.
I dunno if Martian Manhunter can work his way out of that.
I don't see why not, he has turned himself into the necessary elements to create bone. Coming back from having his body turned to stone wouldn't be any different from when he changed himself back.
I found the scan too. Basically, winning against an illusion that was made for the specific purpose of losing to him. Not sure why that's so impressive, but okay.
Team 2, Manhunter is far too versatile and powerful for either of Team 1 to deal with. Whoever he dispatches Lobo can delay the other one till it occurs.
I don't find J'onn to be more powerful or versatile than the Surfer in the slightest, to be frank.
In point of fact, J'onn is not more powerful than Silver Surfer. I do think the Martian is a more adept telepath offensively, but I don't see him busing through Surfer's TP resistance either, so that appears to me, a non factor in this fight.
Lobo on the other hand, has had power variances over the years I thought? I think I'd actually like to hear the arguments people make for Lobo since my "Lobo-speak" is pretty weak.
Lobo on the other hand, has had power variances over the years I thought? I think I'd actually like to hear the arguments people make for Lobo since my "Lobo-speak" is pretty weak.
Arguments for Lobo to beat Surfer, or Hulk?
I dont think Lobo can beat Surfer (even though Lobo has some crazy feats), but he can definitely take out Hulk.
Lobo on the other hand, has had power variances over the years I thought? I think I'd actually like to hear the arguments people make for Lobo since my "Lobo-speak" is pretty weak.
Arguments for Lobo to beat Surfer, or Hulk?
I dont think Lobo can beat Surfer (even though Lobo has some crazy feats), but he can definitely take out Hulk.
Wait, what? Lobo can take out Hulk? You honestly think?
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