@Silver2467: Firstly, until the end there, it seems to me that you are considering Sidious vs Ventress or Grievous, not so much together. That was my first thought upon my initial reading.
While i think you underestimate Ventress to some degree, i do concur that she is the weakest link on my team. However i think it would take more than a concentrated telekinetic burst. If that alone could kill her, wouldn't Anakin have killed Ventress many times before. I will agree though that a single lightsaber strike could kill her. But again, i don't think that will happen easily.
Combatively speaking, I think an argument could be developed between these characters as to who is the most skilled. Pre-TCW Grievous, by Dooku's estimation and by objective feats, is a superior combatant to Ventress, but is he a superior combatant to Sidious? By this point, Palpatine has no displayed individual dueling feats. However, there are other areas we can draw conclusions from. 1) He and Plagueis defeated an army of the most adroit Kursid warriors, armed with nothing but their physical stats and force pikes. 2) Sidious was trained in lightsaber techniques by Plagueis, and that should carry the connotation that he and Plagueis have sparred one another. And for the sake of preempting a counterargument over the semantic value of a sparring match, Sith sparring is hardly relenting. When Sith train, they put their lives on the line, because they believe that if a Sith is so "weak" that they die during paltry training, they are too weak to be true Sith Lords. Plagueis himself is a somewhat impressive duelist, based on what is known about his knowledge and what was shown of his prowess.
3) Sidious had already mastered lightsaber combat by this time. In fact, he stored one of his twin lightsabers in his neuranium sculpture already (and it remained there until Revenge of the Sith). With that said, Sidious was beginning to fully cultivate his career in politics by this time period, and his exercises for swordplay had been reduced. In the following years, he primarily studied other Sith arts focusing on the Force, not lightsaber practice. With that said, what does that imply? Well, in the years following this time (since Sidious had already found the infant Maul), he trained Maul in lightsaber combat and defeated him more than once rather comfortably (both during Maul's formative years and when Maul was an adult Sith). I would say holding a skillful edge over Darth Maul is a reputable feat. Granted, itwas accomplished following the time frame established in the OP, but as I said, Sidious had not trained in saber combat much after this, based on what we know. He spent less time receving lightsaber training and instead began training Maul with a lightsaber. He had already completed that stage and adjusted his attention to the Force and the manipulation of galactic events. 4) Of note also is Sidious' preferred combat style. In most of his duels, Sidious method of fighting appears to be Juyo, with a mixture of other forms adapted to as needed. He tends to run at and around his foes, striking at them constantly until they fall. This is how most of his duels are fought, and it seems reasonable to conclude that this was how he was trained to fight, meaning how he would fight here. His ruthless combat tendencies could lean in his favor, as his speed and striking power could be a problem for Ventress or Grievous.
Honestly, on lightsaber skills i think Grievous is fairly even with Sidious. Although i will admit that Sidious is likely slightly better due to the Force.
My problem with point 1), is that when Plagueis and Sidious defeat the army, they aren't using lightsabers, or training sabers. but Force Pikes. These pikes don't require use of the Force or lightsaber forms. However it is still impressive that he managed to defeat them.
Point 2). Plagueis is somewhat impressive. I will give you that. This may seem rude, but what is the source that they train with great fury. For the record i do believe you are correct, but i don't remember if that was the Banite Line of Sith or not. My other point, and correct me if i'm wrong, but Plagueis placed greater priority on the Force and political powers. He mentions in the novel that Venamis would have done well in Bane's Sith because Venamis was a fighter. So while Sidious was most definitly trained in the arts of the Lightsaber, and is likely skilled in it, i find doubt that he would be incredibly skilled in the art. Now i want to make clear that i am not saying that Sidious is a bad duelist, far from it. I'm simply not so sure that he is the dazzingly swordsman from later.
3). You say that he defeated Maul comfortably several times. And that is true. However, Maul was not in his prime when Sidious defeated him. The source i'm thinking of is when Maul is told by Sidious to kill him. Maul tries hard and Sidious annihilates Maul. This is the last time i remember them dueling. (i may very well be wrong). Maul reaches his prime after he kills Qui-Gon. during TCW. Therefore we can only attribute Sidious to being above Qui-Gon's level of ability.
4. Sidious' style, as you describe it, shouldn't be particularly harmful to Grievous. Grievous was only able to be defeated by Obi-Wan because Obi-Wan was highly skilled in Soresu, the defensive style. You know this. Therefore, it seems unlikely to me that Grievous could be readily defeated by quick strikes. Also, you mention Sidious' speed as being a problem for Grievous, but i'm not so sure it would be. Grievous has been proven to be incredibly fast. His speed was enough to contend with Mace Windu.
How does that compare with Ventress or Grievous? With Ventress, it should at least place Sidious at her level, if not above it. With Grievous, it should render a tantamount ranking. Do I consider Sidious at this point to necessarily exceed Grievous' fighting abilities? No. But the combination of Sidious' impressive degree of skill, his physical potency, and his tremendous Force power should suffice. If it came to a duel between Sidious and Grievous or Ventress individually, I would certainly favor Sidious, not because he may or may not be more skilled but because of his capabilities as a whole. What about both though? Sidious' Force-enhanced physicality supersedes either one, barring durability (since Grievous is obviously more durable than he is). If both Ventress and Grievous dueled Sidious simultaneously, I question whether he would be able to beat both purely with his blade. Fortunately, he has other alternatives.
I agree that Ventress is slightly below Sidious level, but not to a degree that she would lose quickly. Grievous on the other hand i would place slightly above Sidious. But same as the Ventress-Sidious level, not by much. Together, i don't see Sidious out-dueling them, especially once you factor in Durge.
Effortlessly destroying the Shimmersilk Restaurant... The obvious retort would be, "But he never did that." No, but why would he lie? He has nothing to prove to anyone else. In fact, he never even said this out loud. This was his own musing, and he thought it as he felt the dark side rushing to "unleash itself." Under the inspiration of power that the dark side provides him and with there being no motive for him to lie to himself, I see no reason to assume this was an empty consideration, especially since Palpatine has similarly mused over destroying buildings on other occasions as well (such as in Rebel Force: Target). Moreover, the ease with which he tore down building ceilings (which I gave a quote for above) lends itself to credit that thought. If Palpatine can readily knock down buildings, that is a severe power advantage that would play to his favor. Ventress has been telekinetically disarmed and KO'd by Dooku before and been telekinetically beaten by Anakin, neither of whom is quite as powerful as Sidious is. Palpatine could feasibly duplicate that effect. Now, it may not be easy to if he is under pressure from Grievous and Durge as well, but his TK could afford him some leverage.
I skipped the book quotes, as i have no quarrel whatsoever with them. However, i do have a problem with the idea of destroying the restaurant. While i don't think Sidious would lie in his internal monologue, we do know that he has a penchant for exaggerating his own power. (not to say that he's weak, he's not, just not as strong as he thinks) Further, even if he did manage to destroy the shimmersilk restaurant, there's no accounting for how weak he would be afterwards. Could he destroy it? honestly i think so, but i don't think he could do that and continue dueling nonchalantly. He'd be weakened to some degree by that. To the feat of tearing down ceilings, Ventress ripped down teh ceiling rocks when she was auditioning for Dooku in the Clone Wars mini. However, i do agree that Sidious could manage to telekinetically disarm and or defeat Ventress. I'm not sure exactly how great his TK would be when he's facing seven blades. Note that i intentionally said 7 blades. I'll get to it in a minute.
Durge, I presume, would attack Sidious mostly with his weaponry (though of course he can engage in close quarter combat as well). His weapons should be easy enough to evade. Palpatine's feats in deflecting fire should be more than enough to highlight his reaction time. Grievous and Ventress, he can duel straightforwardly and keep at bay via TK. TK may not be the best means to KO or kill Grievous (unless Sidious exercised the precision to Force Crush Grievous' skull or what few internal organs he has, but I doubt that would happen for a majority), but despite that, his raw telekinetic output could force Grievous into a disadvantageous position. It may not be as easy to accomplish as it would be against Ventress, on account of Grievous' durability (which is enough to tank starship laser cannons), but it can help. Mostly though, I think Palpatine's TK would aid him against Ventress. While defending against Grievous and Ventress (and evading Durge's attacks, whether they come from a distance or at close range), he can launch telekinetic barrages at her. He could also pull down trees or scatter portions of the terrain. Naturally, Ventress could adopt these tactics also but with much less efficiency than Sidious could.
I think Durge would wait and ambush Sidious when he had the chance, similarly to how he ambushes Kenobi. But yes, he'd use his weaponry. I agree that Sidious should be able to deflect the majority of shots.
Sidious i think might be able to duel Grievous and Ventress on even ground if he uses TK, which should cause him to get weary. Since he has no prep or information on Grievous i don't think Sidious would think to attack Grievous organs. Palpatine's TK would be enough to defeat Grievous i think, if Grievous were acting alone. But with Ventress there to back him up, i think Palpatine would get rather weary at keeping the duo at bay. And that's ignoring Durge.
I'm honestly not quite sure that Palpatine could pull down trees. The majority of Trees in the Shadowlands are the base sections of the massive trees that hold villages. (At the moment i don't remember seeing many small trees in Kotor 1, which is where my knowledge of the Shadowlands comes from) At the very least, i don't think Palpatine would have the time to pull down a tree. I agree that Ventress couldn't mimic that well.
If he can sustain an output for a protracted enough period, he could well disarm her, kill her telekinetically, or find an opening to slash her with his blade. That could also happen to Grievous eventually, though I do think Grievous would last longer than Ventress would.
This right here, is where i think Sidious will struggle the most. He can definitely separate Ventress and Grievous, but not for incredibly long, and each time he does so he'll get ever so slightly weaker.
Setting them aside for a minute, the primary challenge Durge presents is his ability to survive. Sidious' best option against Durge would probably be Lightning. Unfortunately, the earliest time we have seen Palpatine actually project Lightning was 32BSW4. We do know that he had been trained in use of Force Lightning but to what extent is uncertain.
I'll be honest, i don't know that much about Durge. My knowledge of him comes primarily from the Clone Wars mini's. In those, he gets electrocuted, but manages to reverse it back to the storm troopers. So i'm not entirely sure Force Lightning would be able to kill him easily. So my question then, is does electricity really hurt Durge that badly?
This was not the life he had imagined for himself ten years earlier when he had sworn loyalty to the dark side of the Force. His hunger to be in closer contact with the Force, to be an even more powerful Sith, knew no bounds. But how was he to know when he had arrived at some semblance of mastery? When Plagueis told him?
He regarded his trembling hands.
Would his ability to summon lightning come more effortlessly?
--Taken from Darth Plagueis
In my opinion saying: "come more effortlessly" implies that it doesn't currently come effortlessly. Therefore, my thinking is that using Force Lightning drains Sidious to some extent.
Of course, Sidious may not know that Durge is susceptible to electricity, but if he discovers that lightsaber wounds and telekinetic barrages are ineffective, he could resort to it. Durge has withstood electrical attacks before but with harm, and since we have no idea how powerful Sidious' Lightning was at this point, it could be difficult to determine how damaging it would be. However, Force Lightning has the added property of bleeding out the life force of the victim, a trait standard electricity lacks. That attribute could serve to inflict maximum injury to Durge. Ventress and Grievous could block Lightning with their blades; although if Lightning were to connect with Grievous, that could be fatal for him as well, since it could short out his machinery. I have to wonder who Sidious would aim to kill first, unless, that is, he simply rushes his enemies and kills whoever he can without partiality. With that said, Durge might be a plausible first target, just because of his interference in lightsaber dueling. I would definitely not say this for every encounter but possibly for a majority though there is room for ambiguity. Out of Durge's weapons, Sidious could respond the way Anakin did and telekinetically hurl back some of Durge's armory back at him. If Sidious were to reflect back one of Durge's electric bolas, that in particular could be devastating for Durge. All in all, I think the best way for Sidious to defeat him would be Lightning in conjunction with TK to immobilize Durge (as Anakin did) and occasional lightsaber strikes to temporarily disarm Durge (literally); he could also approach Durge the way Obi-Wan did in CW and slice him apart. Durge would reconstitute himself but not instantly. Although Sidious may not be expecting Durge to regenerate, it could still present an opportunity for him to incapacitate or kill Durge's severed parts.
I think Sidious would only resort to lightning as a last resort if my understanding of your last plagueis quote is correct. Draining the life force would likely hurt Durge a lot, i give you that. I'm not entirely sure that electricity would kill Grievous, but it'd definitly wound him.
I think, Sidious would attempt to neutralize the greatest threat first, and in my opinion, he would think the greatest threat is Ventress, because she is Force Sensitive. Plausibly, Sidious could go for Durge first, in which case he'd likely slice up Durge (after a small amount of fighting) and think Durge dead. I think that woudl come back to bite Sidious in the butt.
I agree that Sidious best bet of killing Durge is lightning, but i think Durge using Force Lightning would drain him majorly. He'd have to kill Grievous and Ventress first in my opinion.
As a whole (and this analysis does not cover everything), this is a close fight. Considering the number of opponents he faces, Sidious may elect to unleash his telekinetic power. This is partly conjectural though, since Sidious has never been in this type of situation at this point (that we know of). However, fighting multiple enemies is not new to him. He and Plagueis beat armies of Kursid warriors and killed several Maladians. But circumstances where Sidious is more pressed (as I believe he would be here) would most likely prompt him to vent his power. This is especially probable given his less controlled rage. At this time period, Sidious was not quite as reserved and patient as he was later. He was still composed and conservative of his powers, being a politician in disguise among thousands of Jedi, but he was still in training. Given the opportunity to release his powers (which he has expressed a desire to do) and if pushed enough to become thoroughly loathing (as I believe he would be here), I see no reason why he would conserve his powers. This is not to say he would instantly defeat your team, but he can deal destruction that most likely not be surmountable for your team in a majority of rounds. If nothing else, he could viably telekinetically throw back via Force Waves two of your team members so that he can briefly concentrate on one, which would benefit him as it could give him the chance to kill one of your team members unimpeded. I would give this to Sidious 6/10. Your team may still win by sheer quantity of attack. Ventress wields two blades, Grievous four, and Durge has a variety of weaponry to abuse. Sidious' downfall here could be the amount of attacks sent his direction (though, again, I would cite Palpatine's track record against armies of warriors and armies of droids firing at him as an argument against that). But your team's downfall could be Sidious' ferocity with a lightsaber and power expenditure.
Agreed. Sidious could unleash his telekinetic power, but Grievous is fast, very fast, and i think he could reach Ventress again without too much difficulty. I think Sidious would attempt to use his power to defeat Grievous and Ventress quickly, but i think he may also use too much too quickly. Your point about conserving his power is correct i think. But as i just said, he'd use too much too soon. His best bet right now is to overwhelming Ventress and kill her, something that can't be achieved lightly.
I think he would use a Force Wave to force my team apart, but Ventress is going to take at least thirty seconds to kill, and Grievous should be able to make it back in time.
His greatest threat to my team, i think, would be unleashing a massive Force Push against Grievous to launch him far enough away to kill Ventress. This can happen, but Sidious best bet is to unleash that quick enough. The longer the wait the weaker he gets. While Sidious won't hold back, i don't think he'd quickly unleash his strength either. You list his ferocity with a lightsaber, but i don't think that'd be enough to overwhelm Grievous and Ventress combined. in Labyrinth of Evil, Grievous fights Mace evenly, and thats without Grievous' massive speed.
Now on the offensive, i don't think Sidious could block the many strikes of Ventress and Grievous at once. Let's count. Ventress has two blades, and Grievous has four, or does he. First off, take a look at the picture you provided. you can count the lightsaber there. It's five. One in each arm and one in his foot. Sidious may be fast, but so is Grievous, and if Sidious is faster than Grievous (which i'm unconvinced of) i don't think it's by enough that he could effectively block five lightsaber strikes plus Ventress' blades, plus any blaster strikes from Durge.
Grievous is able to move faster than the speed of thought, and at speeds competitive with Mace Windu.
Ventress has managed to stalemate Obi-Wan Kenobi, who defeated Maul, same as Sidious. And this is when Kenobi is stronger.
Durge was able to move at a speed such that Kenobi appeared to be moving in slow motion to Durge. This boasts incredibly speed. While not enough to contend with Sidious in a close quarters fight, he should be able to at least strike Sidious.
So in conclusion, i don't think Sidious has the endurance or speed to stop my team in the majority of fights. Could he potentially unleash massive Force Wave that killed Ventress, or launches Grievous away? yes, but he doesn't generally do so, and i find it unlikely that he would in this case. Therefore i give it to my team 6 or 7 out of 10.
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