ROTS Obi Wan Kenobi vs. AOTC Count Dooku

Round 1: Lightsabers only

Round 2: All out fight

*All feats apply for Kenobi (Current canon, Legends, Novel feats)

*Dooku only has feats from up until that time period (Legends/canon)

Duel takes place on neutral ground

vs.

@juiceboks@shootingnova@silver2467@erkan12@thevivas@emperordmb@wollfmyth209@killerwasp@themuser @

Dooku penetrates

Same as the battle before. Although this version of Obi-Wan could last longer than he previously did.

AotC Dooku is just a bit weaker than the ROTS one. Obi can't beat him.

Kenobi could probably pull out a couple wins in sabers only, but in all out he loses.

Round 1: Kenobi. He will wear Dooku down.

Round 2: Dooku, like in ep 3.

What makes you think so?

Dooku....need I say more?

The Count more likely than not, though Kenobi will be putting up a much better fight than his younger self.

Dooku owns Kenobi.

@silver2467: Mostly age, and how Kenobi fights so defensively. If Anakin can't get past his defense after around 10 minutes of intense fighting then I don't see Dooku getting through before he gets tired. IMO his age was one of the major reasons he lost to Anakin.

Anyone knows how much Dooku improved during the CW, if at all?

RotS Kenobi was actually pretty close to Dooku and his loss on the Invisible Hand is very misinterpreted.

@alextheboss: Fair enough, but there are differences between Obi-Wan's fight with Anakin and Dooku fighting Obi-Wan. When Obi-Wan and Anakin dueled one another on Mustafar, Obi-Wan and Anakin had every nuance of each other's fighting styles committed to memory just due to the repetition of their sparring sessions.

Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Obi-Wan is better equipped to defend against Skywalker's attacks than Dooku's. In TCW, only some short months before RotS, Dooku fought both Anakin and Obi-Wan and pierced Obi-Wan's guard twice, first kicking him away and then later grabbing him and throwing him to the ground.

Of course, Obi-Wan has heightened his technique since then and both surprised and impressed Dooku in the RotS novelization with his improved skill, but given the short amount of time between the two, I have no reason to think Dooku would be completely incapable of penetrating Obi-Wan's defenses. In fact, depending on which adaptation of RotS you refer to, Dooku actually did kick Obi-Wan in their duel.

I hardly consider it impossible for Dooku to replicate that. Makashi's core discipline is about the exploitation of leverage and advantage. This is not to say it would be easy for Tyranus to land blows on Kenobi, but I am saying it's within his capability.

On the subject of Dooku's endurance, the RotS novelization did make note of Dooku's waning strength during the duel, but this was while Anakin was pummeling his defenses with his unnaturally forceful saber strikes.

Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

It was never noted that Obi-Wan's strokes were as taxing to Dooku. It was the consequence of Skywalker's power. On top of that, once Dooku managed to secure his position better later on, he subsisted himself bodily with the Force, circumventing the physical demands of his natural age and the duel.

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

He lifted his blade, and beckoned.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

Nothing leads me to believe Obi-Wan would press Dooku as much as Anakin did. Obi-Wan can definitely put up a fight, and his defenses astonished Dooku in the novelization. But Tyranus still has what it takes to beat him.

None to my knowledge.

You mean it was never mentioned and he doesn't have substantially better feats to say it for certain, or a source actually said he didn't?

Because, I mean he was old, but it was still the Clone Wars, where he relatively frequently dueled with Jedi and sparred with Ventress and Grievous. I don't know why he wouldn't improve at least marginally.

Lol :P

The former. Nothing has ever explicitly said that Dooku didn't improve at all, and I agree with you that it should be very possible for his knowledge and power to grow. But his feats are basically all on the same level, and just like there are no sources that state he didn't grow in power, there are none that say he did either.

EDIT:

ROFL. XD

Thanks for pointing that out. Corrected.

Dooku.

I don't find Obi-Wan any less skilled than Dooku as much as I just find him different. Their fighting styles have similar principles but are completely different when put into practice. They're good at different things.

Kenobi is good at keeping up a stout defence, deflecting aside and parrying blows of any strength or volume. He's good at handling aggression. He can wear opponents down over time and catch them with a counterstrike while they are fatigued, even if the gap is their for just a split second.

Dooku is... extremely well optimized to cope that kind of fighting style. He isn't overly aggressive or trying to hammer your defence down, he's trying to pick you apart with precision. He gets himself into superior positions with better footwork. His energy expenditure is minimal. A duel between Kenobi and Dooku would be fairly close and drawn out, but the pattern is clear; Dooku would give Obi-Wan none of the edges he needs to win, which means in his defensive stance, always giving ground, Kenobi is giving Dooku all the time in the world to pepper away at his defence, looking for an opening, not spending very much energy doing it. Kenobi can take wins, for certain, especially if, in the right situation, he can become the aggressor in the fight and put Dooku on the backfoot (which is really what is needed to defeat him).

Dooku

@silver2467:

I don't think that their TCW duel is a good indicator for RotS Kenobi. It was still before the famous Outer Rim sieges. During that period Anakin has a substantial documented powergrowth.

But Ahsoka eventually became disillusioned and left the Jedi Order, an act which Anakin regretted. The Clone Wars continued, and Anakin became a hero and grew vastly in power.

—Star Wars Databank

Now I know Anakin is not Kenobi, but they were doing the same thing, having the same experience. Kenobi obviously can't replicate the Chosen Ones lurning curve, since he doesn't have nearly the force potential as he, but Kenobi's potential relatively is still insane. The guy at age 38 was nearing Dooku's and Mace's level. Two of the most powerful force users up until their time, both of them being at least 15 years his senior. I think it's safe to say he has better potential than either of them, which would mean Kenobi had the potential to be the 3rd most powerful Jedi ever behind Yoda and Anakin.

So yeah, he can't replicate Anakin's learning curve, but I'm convinced he grew noticably more powerful as well during the sieges.

With that in mind a kick is not really that good of an indicator of a duel. Kenobi landed several kicks on Maul on Florrum, even before Adi's death, Ventress kicked Kenobi when fighting the team, Talon kicked prime Cade etc. It just seems easier to breach defense with physical strikes than a lightsaber as far as I noticed.

Even beyond that, as you said, Makashi is about the exploitation of leverage. In the comic he kicked him when having the high ground which afforded him more leverege:

He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

—Revenge of the Sithy

And in the novel he just flat out used droids to distract Kenobi:

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs.

—Revenge of the Sithy

It should also be noted that Anakin was who allowed Dooku to have the high ground, Kenobi is smarter than that :P

Also Dooku after realizing that Kenobi became the absolute master of Soresu changed his tactic and never again tried to engage Kenobi blade to blade, because it would be futile:

He finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.

Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, overpowering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this...

His farce had suddenly, inexplicably, spun from humorous to deadly serious and was tumbling rapidly toward terrifying. Realization burst through Dooku's consciousness like the blossoming fireballs of dying ships outside: this pair of Jedi fools had somehow managed to become entirely dangerous.

These clowns might—just possibly—actually be able to beat him.

No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice.

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.

—Revenge of the Sithy

Kenobi being only marginally less skilled than Dooku by RotS means AotC Dooku is either his equal or even less marginally more skilled. And I think Kenobi has a better skill set as far as dueling goes. So I could see him winning a majority in sabers only.

Dooku. There is no difference between Dooku in the 3rd movie and when he was in the 2nd movie.

@silver2467: to be fare Dooku kicked Anakin during that fight too. I agree Dooku could still beat Obi-wan in a sabers only competition, I just think by the end of ep 3 Kenobi would take the small majority.

@alextheboss: Dooku's kick against Anakin was more of a desperate, "do anything you can to get out of this situation" maneuver, whereas his blows against Obi-Wan are basically always exploiting Kenobi's vulnerabilities.

@shootingnova: I was talking about the clone wars fight, but ya Dooku kicked Anakin in ep 3 too. I wouldn't say it was out of desperation, he just kicked Anankin to the side so he could deal with Kenobi. Dooku was more skilled than Anakin, but Anakin's strength and endurance just overwhelmed him.

I like Obi Wan hes probably my favorite Character in the Star Wars verse. But Count Dooku takes this with relative ease. The Count out classes Obi and every category accept defense but i see no reason why the Count easily considered one of the greatest duelist of his time couldn't manage to penetrate Obis defense after a while of dueling.

@alextheboss: Ah, okay.

I wouldn't say it was out of desperation

It was desperate; both the RotS novel and junior novel, as well as the script (I believe) attest to this.

@silver2467: While I agree that Obi-Wan can't beat Dooku for a majority, this is more due to his primary offensive technique being Ataru which Dooku knows inside out and back to front. This is very noticeable in the duel in TCW season 6, Dooku is able to pre-empt Obi-Wan's acrobatic and offensive sequences easily. However when we remove that knowledge advantage from the equation

Obi-Wan steadied himself and shifted his lightsaber from hand to hand, getting a better grip on it. Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely, his blue lightsaber flashing all about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, though, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thrust, and he soon had Dooku backing, the red blade working furiously to keep Obi-Wan at bay.

Attack of the Clones Novelization

Even AOTC Kenobi was able press Dooku once he strayed away from the standard Ataru sequences Dooku was familiar with. I can see ROTS Kenobi seeing some success with this tactic given his speed and dueling improvement. At the very least he can stone wall Dooku, and it should be noted (at least in the ROTS Novelization) that Dooku needed his guards to distract Anakin and Obi-Wan to land his blows, which stunned both of them, Kenobi's KO only being due to Dooku's focus on him at that moment, as he could have TK'd the stunned Skywalker just as easily

Dooku takes all rounds.

Yes, Dooku takes all rounds, but I wonder how much of a majority Dooku would take over ROTS Kenobi in a pure lightsaber duel.

That has nothing to do with my point though. We're not discussing Anakin's defensive skills; we're discussing Obi-Wan's.

But fair enough. I can see this being debated, I suppose.

I already acknowledged that Kenobi continued to progress in power, knowledge, and skill during the time between TCW season 6 and RotS and that Dooku's performance against Anakin and Obi-Wan there may not be indicative of a later encounter between the two. So I can understand if you disagree with my including it here. However, I take issue with your examples. I follow your tracking of Obi-Wan's growth alongside Skywalker fine, but the comparison between Obi-Wan and Dooku and Mace is tenuous, in my opinion. Mace was named one of the two most powerful Jedi in the Order by the time of TPM when he was forty; Yoda, the other one of the two, was nearing the end of his eighth century. Does this mean Mace's Force potential far outstrips Yoda's? No. For Obi-Wan to be approaching Mace's power at age 38 is good, as is his approaching Dooku's, but truthfully, you're making a bit of a leap to say that his Force potential is greater than theirs because of that. There are numerous characters of vastly disparate age groups with comparable Force power; this by itself doesn't translate to potential equality or superiority. That besides, Dooku TK'd Obi-Wan in RotS twice. Yes, I know one source says that Dooku simply caught him before he could react, but he still landed a Force push earlier than that, which the RotS novelization suggests was a casual flick of his wrist. Conversely, Obi-Wan has never successfully TK'd Tyranus. I think I can safely say that Dooku remains more powerful than even RotS Kenobi.

Concerning how much he grew, I think it would be fairly difficult to determine that one way or another, whether the difference was great or small. We can speculate, but since TCW is a recent source released well after RotS, it would be tough to decipher with any definitive precision.

If the RotS novelization (which both of us are quoting) is being considered as an accurate source, then it is a good indicator, because that kick dealt what appeared to be crippling damage to Obi-Wan and preceded Dooku's finishing Force blow:

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck.Wouldn't that be lovely?

--Taken from Revenge of the Sithy

So, yes, I think it does matter.

I fail to see how this detracts from Dooku landing a hit on Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan dismantled the droids before Dooku attacked him, and Dooku even went so far as to hit Anakin first, then kick Obi-Wan. With the droids disabled, if Dooku managed to strike both of them, first Anakin, then Obi-Wan, how does that detract from Dooku landing a hit on Obi-Wan?

Dooku was stunned by Obi-Wan's skill with Soresu after being misled into thinking that his preference was Ataru and while retreating from Anakin. He was caught off-guard. Take Anakin out of the equation and with Dooku aware of Obi-Wan's fighting form, and there is no reason to think he can't pierce Obi-Wan's defenses. He did exactly that later in the fight.

I'm not saying that Dooku would win every single time, necessarily, but it would be unfair to imply that Obi-Wan's defenses are simply impenetrable to Tyranus (not that you are). And even if Dooku failed to maneuver around Obi-Wan's defenses blade to blade, he can find another way, i.e., land unarmed blows on him. That besides, Obi-Wan honestly doesn't have the offensive power to beat Dooku. All he could do is delay being killed. Would it be easy for Dooku to defeat Obi-Wan in a duel? Not at all. But is it possible? Sure.

As far as dueling goes, Obi-Wan's skill set never allowed him to do anything better than form a virtually impenetrable shield with his blade against Tyranus. He has never been in a position where he has gained anything resembling an advantage over him. All you've proven is that Obi-Wan can at best stalemate him by virtue of just being untouchable, but I strongly disagree with the notion that Dooku would fail to outmatch him for a majority. As ILS described, Dooku's methodical, pinpoint delivery in his fighting style is ideal for finding the slightest opening or misstep in Obi-Wan's technique. It would last a while, but Dooku can win.

Post what happened immediately after that in the novelization, because frankly this is out of context. And if this is as accurate as you suggest, shouldn't Obi-Wan have done better in RotS while he was in an offensive form in the beginning of the fight? Even Obi-Wan and Anakin's initial attacks in concert failed to press Dooku. Only when they surprised him, outmaneuvered him, and put him under duress by misdirection did they begin to have an advantage, and Obi-Wan is bereft an ally in this thread.

Could RotS Obi-Wan win? Probably. For a majority? I remain unconvinced.

@shootingnova: In the movie it looked casual.

@alextheboss: That's an arbitrary interpretation that's contradicted by multiple sources. Then again, this doesn't really matter.

@silver2467 You quoted it as "Revenge of the Sithy" again, lol.

@silver2467: I know exactly what happens afterwards, Obi-Wan over-commits and Dooku regains the advantage, I apologize for not including that. As it did not pertain to the point I was making. Which was that even AOTC Kenobi when he strays from the textbook Ataru was capable of pressing Dooku, which he does His failure being from a lack of dueling sense (as AOTC Kenobi had far less experience) rather than dueling ability. ROTS Kenobi with his emphasis on minimalism would likely not make such an error, and is faster and more advanced

As for your musings as for why Obi-Wan didn't use it against him in ROTS, to be blunt, it wasn't part of the plan. They didn't press him because they were not supposed to

They (Obi-wan and Anakin) attack Count Dooku in concert aboard the Separatist command cruiser, lulling him into a false sense of confidence by using standard lightsaber tactics, only to shift to advanced forms forcing a confused Dooku to retreat

Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary

This is further backed up in the novelization, which states that Kenobi was using Shi-cho. Furthermore, Obi-Wan never had to assume an offensive stance during that fight due to Anakin's presence. Additionally Dooku does note that he is tiring from them

It was a simple matter of countering their tactics, which were depressingly straightforward; Skywalker was the swift one, whooshing here and there like a spastic hawk-bat—attempting a Jedi variant of neek-in-the-middle so they could come at him from both sides while Kenobi came on in a measured Shii-Cho cadence, deliberate as a lumberdroid, moving step by step, cutting off the angles, clumsy but relentlessly dogged as he tried to chivvy Dooku into a corner. Whereas all Dooku need do was to slip from one side to another and occasionally flip over a head here and there so that he could fight each of them in turn, rather than both of them at the same time. He supposed that in their own milieu, they might actually prove reasonably effective; it was clear that their style had been developed by fighting as a team against large numbers of opponents. They were not prepared to fight together against a single Force-user, certainly not one of Dooku's power; he, on the other hand, had always fought alone. It was laughably easy to keep the Jedi tripping and stumbling and getting in each other's way. They didn't even comprehend how utterly he dominated the combat. Because they fought as they had been trained, by releasing all desire and allowing the Force to flow through them, they had no hope of countering Dooku's mastery of Sith techniques They had learned nothing since he had bested them on Geonosis. They allowed the Force to direct them; Dooku directed the Force. He drew their strikes to his parries, and drove his own ripostes with thrusts of dark power that subtly altered the Jedi's balance and disrupted their timing. He could have slaughtered both of them as casually as that creature Maul had destroyed the vigos of the Black Sun. However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man. He leaned into a thrust at Kenobi's gut that the Jedi Master deflected with a rising parry, bringing them chest-to-chest, blades flaring, locked together a handbreadth from each other's throats.

"Your moves are too slow, Kenobi. Too predictable. You'll have to do better." Kenobi's response to this friendly word was to regard him with a twinkle of gentle amusement in his eye.

"Very well, then," the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed he'd vanished. And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade driving straight for Dooku's heart. Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his armorweave cloak.

Dooku thought, What?

Revenge of the Sith Novelization

I am not arguing that Kenobi takes the majority, he doesn't. But he can take rounds, and even then this would never be a complete stomp by any means

Thanks for the reply, and sorry if my formatting is off, I'm new here

@shootingnova: I know; so did Zoltan. We're doing it as a joke now.

All right. I'm familiar with their plan, and your point in relation to their tactic is agreeable enough. I guess I mistook what you were suggesting before.

The only point I was making was that if Obi-Wan's offensive skills were sufficient to drive back Dooku in any meaningful sense, then it seems the combined onslaught of Anakin and Obi-Wan should have defeated him before or after they switched forms in RotS, instead of Anakin alone doing this. For their part, Kenobi and Skywalker's strategy was to use the forms they mastered, Soresu and Djem So, and so overwhelming Dooku by united force would be out of the question with those styles in mind. So I can get behind what you're saying here. Good points.

I concur.

All good.

@silver2467:

I already acknowledged that Kenobi continued to progress in power, knowledge, and skill during the time between TCW season 6 and RotS and that Dooku's performance against Anakin and Obi-Wan there may not be indicative of a later encounter between the two. So I can understand if you disagree with my including it here. However, I take issue with your examples. I follow your tracking of Obi-Wan's growth alongside Skywalker fine, but the comparison between Obi-Wan and Dooku and Mace is tenuous, in my opinion. Mace was named one of the two most powerful Jedi in the Order by the time of TPM when he was forty; Yoda, the other one of the two, was nearing the end of his eighth century. Does this mean Mace's Force potential far outstrips Yoda's? No. For Obi-Wan to be approaching Mace's power at age 38 is good, as is his approaching Dooku's, but truthfully, you're making a bit of a leap to say that his Force potential is greater than theirs because of that. There are numerous characters of vastly disparate age groups with comparable Force power; this by itself doesn't translate to potential equality or superiority. That besides, Dooku TK'd Obi-Wan in RotS twice. Yes, I know one source says that Dooku simply caught him before he could react, but he still landed a Force push earlier than that, which the RotS novelization suggests was a casual flick of his wrist. Conversely, Obi-Wan has never successfully TK'd Tyranus. I think I can safely say that Dooku remains more powerful than even RotS Kenobi.

First of all I didn't say he is more powerful than Dooku, right the contrary, I said he is only nearing his level.

By feats RotS Kenobi is not really far off from Dooku and Mace, with another 15 years of progression it's safe to say he would've surpassed them (maybe he even did in Canon if Disney keeps pushing pre-ANH Vader further). Hence higher potential. Not sure where the leap of logic is. Mace being second most powerful jedi by TPM doesn't have to do anything with Yoda, since Yoda by that time was 200 years past his prime and he still eclipsed Mace.

Anyhow, this is pretty irrelevant. The hype of Kenobi and Anakin in the RotS novel vs their performance in TCW should be all the evidence needed, especially since Disney pulled the plug on TCW before the Outer Rim sieges.

If the RotS novelization (which both of us are quoting) is being considered as an accurate source, then it is a good indicator, because that kick dealt what appeared to be crippling damage to Obi-Wan and preceded Dooku's finishing Force blow:

Well as I'm arguing from a sabers only perspective the later doesn't matter. As for how crippling it was? All it said it seemed like he broke his neck from Dooku's perspective. Considering that TCW Kenobi could tank Maul's kick that can OHK a jedi and later in RotS Kenobi fought Grievous in hand to hand and won (and he has loads of other top tier durability feats) I fail to see how Dooku could cause serious damage to Kenobi with a single kick.

I fail to see how this detracts from Dooku landing a hit on Obi-Wan.

By exploiting an advantageous position.

Obi-Wan dismantled the droids before Dooku attacked him, and Dooku even went so far as to hit Anakin first, then kick Obi-Wan. With the droids disabled, if Dooku managed to strike both of them, first Anakin, then Obi-Wan, how does that detract from Dooku landing a hit on Obi-Wan?

I suppose it doesn't.

Dooku was stunned by Obi-Wan's skill with Soresu after being misled into thinking that his preference was Ataru and while retreating from Anakin. He was caught off-guard. Take Anakin out of the equation and with Dooku aware of Obi-Wan's fighting form, and there is no reason to think he can't pierce Obi-Wan's defenses. He did exactly that later in the fight.

He pierced Kenobi's defense with a physical blow, by all evidence it's much easier than with a blade, otherwise what would the point be to use unarmed strikes? Kenobi got hit or kicked by Ventress, Maul, and even A'Sharad Hett and Pre Vizla. Yet I don't remember his blade defense being penetrated by a lightsaber after AotC.

Is unarmed strikes useful? Sure, but it doesn't translate into being able to penetrate his defense blade to blade.

I'm not saying that Dooku would win every single time, necessarily, but it would be unfair to imply that Obi-Wan's defenses are simply impenetrable to Tyranus (not that you are). And even if Dooku failed to maneuver around Obi-Wan's defenses blade to blade, he can find another way, i.e., land unarmed blows on him. That besides, Obi-Wan honestly doesn't have the offensive power to beat Dooku. All he could do is delay being killed. Would it be easy for Dooku to defeat Obi-Wan in a duel? Not at all. But is it possible? Sure.

I disagree. He is still a master of Ataru, and going by feats he is at least as good as Jinn or better with it. Jinn who was regarded as one of the best pure swordsman in the history of the Order. That's a pretty good Ataru. Kenobi just have to wait for an opportunity, just like Dooku. And I don't see why the absolute master of Soresu would be the first to give such an opportunity.

As far as dueling goes, Obi-Wan's skill set never allowed him to do anything better than form a virtually impenetrable shield with his blade against Tyranus. He has never been in a position where he has gained anything resembling an advantage over him. All you've proven is that Obi-Wan can at best stalemate him by virtue of just being untouchable, but I strongly disagree with the notion that Dooku would fail to outmatch him for a majority. As ILS described, Dooku's methodical, pinpoint delivery in his fighting style is ideal for finding the slightest opening or misstep in Obi-Wan's technique. It would last a while, but Dooku can win.

Well that's just it. Kenobi doesn't make mistakes, doesn't have holes in his defense. Mace specifically sent Kenobi against Grievous, because Grievous' computer in his brain can't analyze anything, can't exploit anything. I think the least the absolute master of Soresu (and most likely the single best practitioner of the form) can say about himself is that his defense is perfect.

Does that mean he is unbeatable in sabers only? Well obviously not. His defenses can be overloaded (as it was the case in the duel I cited above), but not penetrated. At least that's how I see it.

And as for skill set. Kenobi has exceptional Sokan, at least on par with Dooku's. And seems to be the smarter duelist. It was his plan, afterall, to use ploy forms against Dooku and he fell for it. And he is regarded numerous times to be the most cunning jedi. Which is a pretty underrated skill in versus debates tbh.

Fair enough.

Because Dooku is superhumanly strong? If the novel suggested it was a staggering blow to Kenobi (which it did), the other examples are irrelevant.

Note: my argument here is not that Dooku can or would one-shot Kenobi with a kick, just that his blows are harmful enough to matter in a fight.

Well, yeah, because it's not like Obi-Wan has ever won a fight from a disadvantageous position or anything. :P

All jokes aside, Obi-Wan reached the top of the stairs and then dropped the battle droids. So where was this advantageous position? Both were on level footing when Dooku hit him.

All right, but if Dooku can hurt Obi-Wan with just unarmed blows as he has in the past (in TCW and RotS), I don't think they should be ignored either. Now, if your point is that a duel between Obi-Wan and Dooku blade to blade exclusively would find Tyranus incapable of landing any saber strokes, then that's more tenable, but my point is that a duel between Obi-Wan and Dooku involves any attack of their choosing and Dooku can wear Obi-Wan down with unarmed strikes in order to incapacitate him or eventually pierce his defenses with his lightsaber.

What feats does Obi-Wan have with Ataru that render him as good as Jinn? Not that I disagree, just wondering what your basis for this claim is. For the record, sources decorate Dooku's lightsaber mastery more lavishly than Qui-Gon's; so the argument that Obi-Wan is as good as Qui-Gon with Ataru doesn't stand the test against a better swordsman anyway.

As for who would hit who first, considering that Dooku has fended off blows from the single best Ataru master ever in Yoda, who is faster, stronger, and far and away more mobile than Obi-Wan and can attack the Count from any angle at any time, reason has it that Dooku is equipped to deal with an Ataru maneuver from Obi-Wan, and considering that Makashi is predicated on exploiting any opportunity to defeat an opponent, I think Dooku would seize an opportunity first.

All of these are good points, particularly about Obi-Wan's cunning (which, yes, is an underrated skill in versus debates), but none of this leads me to believe Obi-Wan would win a majority. I think the argument can and has been made, but all in all, Dooku's showings just stack better than inverse, his form being the kind of meticulous, deliberate fighting style required to outfight a swordsman with Kenobi's strengths.

@silver2467: I just skimmed through it and only saw it once, so I didn't see the joke. My bad.

@silver2467:

Note: my argument here is not that Dooku can or would one-shot Kenobi with a kick, just that his blows are harmful enough to matter in a fight.

Sure, I can agree to that.

Do note though this is AotC Dooku, who is marginally less skilled, strong, and fast :)

All jokes aside, Obi-Wan reached the top of the stairs and then dropped the battle droids. So where was this advantageous position? Both were on level footing when Dooku hit him.

I meant in the comic. I conceded the novel.

All right, but if Dooku can hurt Obi-Wan with just unarmed blows as he has in the past (in TCW and RotS), I don't think they should be ignored either. Now, if your point is that a duel between Obi-Wan and Dooku blade to blade exclusively would find Tyranus incapable of landing any saber strokes, then that's more tenable, but my point is that a duel between Obi-Wan and Dooku involves any attack of their choosing and Dooku can wear Obi-Wan down with unarmed strikes in order to incapacitate him or eventually pierce his defenses with his lightsaber.

He definitely can, I just think Kenobi's durability is more impressive than that. I mean look at these kicks: https://youtu.be/DlJiphrbLyg?t=1m16s

What feats does Obi-Wan have with Ataru that render him as good as Jinn? Not that I disagree, just wondering what your basis for this claim is. For the record, sources decorate Dooku's lightsaber mastery more lavishly than Qui-Gon's; so the argument that Obi-Wan is as good as Qui-Gon with Ataru doesn't stand the test against a better swordsman anyway.

His Maul feats on Florrum and the ship. Before you say anything, no I don't mean beating Savage and Maul. Only that he overcome weakness of Ataru that Jinn didn't demonstrate such as confined space and multiple opponents.

As for who would hit who first, considering that Dooku has fended off blows from the single best Ataru master ever in Yoda, who is faster, stronger, and far and away more mobile than Obi-Wan and can attack the Count from any angle at any time, reason has it that Dooku is equipped to deal with an Ataru maneuver from Obi-Wan, and considering that Makashi is predicated on exploiting any opportunity to defeat an opponent, I think Dooku would seize an opportunity first.

That's not really a fair assessment. How is a not 100% Yoda beating Dooku decisively means he is the only Ataru user who can beat Dooku? Yoda is hardly the bare minimum required to do so.

dooku

Dooku

Dooku has a stylistic advantage over Obi-Wan, so he wins. But when you need to deal with the physical aggression and unpredictability, or blaster deflection, Obi-Wan is your answer.

All of this sounds good to me. We're reaching more and more common ground.

To supplement your Canon showing for Kenobi, this is a great durability feat for him from Legends:

Blasted through a stone wall by Ventress, and he's up and kicking again on the next page.

I can agree with that.

I didn't say Yoda is the bare minimum required to beat him, but Dooku has successfully fought against Yoda, who possesses every advantage conceivable over Obi-Wan. In combat, Yoda is just the more devastating opponent, and while Dooku lost, he stood his ground against him for a while and never sustained a hit either. I have no reason to believe Obi-Wan can summon a lightsaber barrage as overpowering as Yoda can. The fact that Dooku knows everything about Ataru per his training and experience with Qui-Gon doesn't hurt either.

Bump

Kenobi takes sabers, Dooku takes force and all out.

Either could take it.

Dooku but not a stomp

Kenobi COULD win R1, by not R2 or all out.