ROTJ Luke runs a Gauntlet

@ordeith

Nothing indicates that Dooku compensating for Makashi's weakness is because he hybridized it.

OK using the word hybridized was a poor choice of words but it's still a very unorthodox version of Makashi,

He doesn't but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying he wouldn't have overspecialized when Vader isn't the only Sith he has to defeat and he primarily intended to turn Vader anyways.

Why do you keep saying Luke wouldn't have overspecialised because Vader wasn't the only Sith? Stop making that excuse, the only other Sith that was there was Sidious, and ROTJ Luke has no hope of beating Sidious. Luke had a circumstantial advantage over Vader he will never have other everyone else. Luke never even had any goals of defeating any other Sith in lightsaber combat as of ROTJ.

Yes you are.

No I'm not.

Exactly! Which is why he's not going to overspecialize to the point he would make himself a less capable general combatant. He has other people he needs to deal with.

Like who? Sidious? ROTJ Luke never had any intentions of defeating Sidious in a lightsaber duel.

Read above.

I did and it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

@yousufkhan1212:

"manner and ability with which an artist, writer, athlete, etc., employs the technical skills of a particular art or field of endeavour."

Dueling in general falls under what you just underlined, so no that definition doesn't prove squat for you

No it does not apply to everyone.

Yes they do, why would luke being able to match vader in strength not apply to the much weaker duelists on this gauntlet? Why would variety that is enough to match vader's not apply to the others on this thread?

No it is not referring to his skills in lightsaber combat. How many times I have to tell you that skill and technique that NOT interchangeable?

They absolutely can be. On the other hand superb technique is not interchangeable with technique that is only superb vs darth vader

Not it wouldn't because he never developed a formula (in this case: a lightsaber technique) that was specifically designed to beat Maul or Kenobi.

He never designed a lightsaber that specifically works vs vader either

Too bad I just proved it.

You never did

"A systematic procedure, formula, or routine by which a task is accomplished." - Businessdictionary.com

Which refers to things such as citing history papers. It does not apply to beating darth vader in a lightsaber duel where there was never any advantages mentioned by any source vader gained through prep.

And the fact that he learned how to adapt to Vader's fighting style.

Luke having to adapt to vader's style is an advantage for vader.

@ordeith:

I think it's Makashi taken to its highest level and Dooku taking advantage of the weaknesses of other forms because he's knowledgeable on them. Don't know about unorthodox.

It's unorthodox because he compensated for it's weaknesses.

BUT LUKE DIDN'T KNOW THAT!!! He wanted to defeat Sidious too and he wouldn't have surrendered to Vader if he knew how powerful Sidious was.

And how was he planning on defeating Sidious?

Yes you are.

No I am not.

How do you know that? How is Luke even supposed to know what Sidious is capable of?

Because Yoda warned him to not underestimate Sidious. Also, Luke would have sensed how powerful Sidious was on the Death Star because he was in his presence.

Kind of how I'm feeling right now.

Same.

@kbroskywalker:

"manner and ability with which an artist, writer, athlete, etc., employs the technical skills of a particular art or field of endeavour."

Dueling in general falls under what you just underlined, so no that definition doesn't prove squat for you

AHA HA HA yes it does XD

Yes they do, why would luke being able to match vader in strength not apply to the much weaker duelists on this gauntlet? Why would variety that is enough to match vader's not apply to the others on this thread?

Because Luke isn't familiar with any of the other duelist's fighting styles and techniques.

They absolutely can be. On the other hand superb technique is not interchangeable with technique that is only superb vs darth vader

Yes it is interchangeable. Fightsaber said the technique itself (not Luke's actual lightsaber skill) was superb enough to deal with Darth Vader.

He never designed a lightsaber that specifically works vs vader either

Yes he did use a lightsaber technique that's specifically works against Vader, Fightsaber even said this.

You never did

Yes I did.

Which refers to things such as citing history papers.

No it freaking doesn't, nothing in the quote I used even remotely suggests it only applies to things like citing history papers.

It does not apply to beating darth vader in a lightsaber duel where there was never any advantages mentioned by any source vader gained through prep.

Yes it does, and Luke did gain a circumstantial advantage as mentioned by Fightsaber. Vader had no prep.

Luke having to adapt to vader's style is an advantage for vader.

LOL no it isn't. Luke learning how to adapt to Vader's fighting style in lightsaber combat gives Vader no advantage whatsoever.

@ordeith:

He compensated for it but that doesn't mean he did so through unorthodoxy. He could have simply compensated with his powerful command of the Force something I find more likely.

That's just speculation, and lightsaber Forms don't work that way.

Probably the same way he planned on defeating Vader.

Through lightsaber combat? Absolutely not, ROTJ Luke would simply get speed blitzed, and he'd have to wait several years for his power to grow until he's ready to contend with Sidious without getting speed blitzed, and ROTJ Luke can't do that.

I'm going to let you get the last word here since this interaction is the definition of pointless.

Good because I'm getting tired of this discussion.

Yoda also warned him how powerful Vader was.

No... Yoda warned ESB Luke (a reckless, impatient and emotionally unstable version of Luke) of how powerful Vader was.

And by the time Luke was on the Death Star and could sense Sidious's presence he would have already developed the fighting style he was to face Vader and the Emperor with.

LOL how the hell is he going to develop a fighting style that specifically works against Sidious without any familiarity with Sidious's fighting style?

stops at vader

@ordeith:

Your right. But so is suggesting that Dooku used unorthodox methods to make up for his form's weakness rather then his own skill and power.

What is so suggesting Dooku used "unorthodox methods" to make up for his Form's weaknesses? And what the hell are these "unorthodox methods" even supposed to be?

The difference being I supported my stance with evidence while you did not.

Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. In the Jedi Path Dooku talked about the idea of using different lightsaber Forms to make a technique and showed disgust in the idea, saying "Dabbler in all, master of none. My focus remains on Makashi."

Dooku compensated for Makashi's weaknesses through his own skill and practise, he doesn't use any lightsaber methods beside Makashi

Obviously. But Luke doesn't know that otherwise he wouldn't have surrendered to Vader.

Luke doesn't know what? That he won't be fighting Vader in a rematch? Nonsense.

Same.

Then why don't you actually stop responding to me instead of claiming you will let me "get the last word"?

And you don't think that would apply to RotJ Luke as well?

No because ROTJ Luke originally didn't want to fight Vader in the first place before he fought Vader, and it was stated that ROTJ Luke possessed the "clarity and wisdom of a Jedi Knight".

"When Luke confronted Darth Vader again, he possessed the clarity and wisdom of a Jedi Knight. He had no set out to conquer but rather to redeem the good in his father." - Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

ESB Luke isn't anything like that.

He wouldn't. What I'm saying though is that he wouldn't overspecialize against Vader at the risk of weakening himself against the Emperor, an opponent's capabilities he does not know.

Why wouldn't he overspecialise against Vader? ROTJ Luke never had any intention of fighting Sidious, nor was it even remotely suggested he was even considering the idea. Your point of ROTJ Luke not overspecialising against Vader makes no sense whatsoever.

I don't see how Luke beats anybody. He was a kid who started way later than anybody has trained way less than anybody and has way less experience than anybody.

When he beat Vader, Vader was nothing but a crippled old pathetic excuse of his former self with severe handicaps and also not wanting to kill Luke.

Sure their is something called being a natural or prodigy but when your only opponent is a 50+ year old with false limbs needs a breathing apparatus and a severe burn victim who held back because he didn't want to kill his child. It doesn't seem to impressive to me.

@ordeith:

I don't know, you tell me. You're the one claiming he's using unorthodox methods.

I said he used an unorthodox version of Makashi, not using unorthodox methods. Stop twisting my words.

Exactly... That's what I've been saying all along. You however have been claiming the opposite which is why I'm confused at your sudden stance reversal.

I didn't claim the opposite, you're twisting my words.

Don't be dense. Luke doesn't know he's no match for Sidious otherwise he wouldn't have surrendered himself to Vader to be brought before him ( him being Sidious ).

Luke didn't allow himself to arrested to be brought to Sidious.

I don't know. Why don't you?

Because I'm not going to allow you to continue throwing your nonsense at me. And I never even claimed I will let you get the last word.

What does that have to do with Vader's ability as a combatant?

I was talking about the difference between ROTJ Luke and ESB Luke because you asked would ESB Luke's recklessness would apply to ROTJ Luke so I gave my evidence.

Luke never intended to fight Sidious? Quote?

It was never suggested ROTJ Luke had any intentions of fighting Sidious, and here's a quote that explains what ROTJ Luke's intentions were

"When Luke confronted Darth Vader again, he possessed the clarity and wisdom of a Jedi Knight. He had no set out to conquer but rather to redeem the good in his father." - Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

This Source came from a section of Luke's goal in ROTJ, and there was no mention of him having any intentions to fight the Emperor.

@ordeith:

I don't care to pursue this only to be met with continued cries of "Your twisting my words!" We essentially agree here that Dooku took Makashi and mastered it to its highest levels and compensated for its weaknesses with his own skill and power, correct?

Yes sir!

Then why did he surrender himself to Vader if not to defeat the Sith.

Because he didn't want to fight Vader. Luke was trained to fight Vader in between ESB and ROTJ under the command of Yoda. And before you say something like "Why the hell would Luke train himself to fight Vader only to refuse to Vader in ROTJ?", that's because Luke was under Yoda's command.

If you stop responding then you won't have to even continue talking about it in the first place you stubborn mule.

You also seem stubborn because you keep up with someone in an argument that's been going on for almost 4 weeks...

I in no way asked how Luke's recklessness would apply to RotJ. Quote me where I said that please.

I'm pretty sure this is how you asked me:

"And you don't think that would apply to RotJ Luke as well?" - You.

There you go.

How the hell did he think he was going to redeem his father then with Sidious there?

I don't know what plan he had!

Did he think he would redeem Sidious as well?

LMAO no!

I find that rather unlikely, I find it more likely he wanted to turn his father so that they could defeat Sidious together.

That's a fan theory.

@ordeith: How rude, you respond to my points without even tagging me. If you don't want an actual response to me then stop making posts on this thread regardless of whether you're talking to me or not.

Luke wasn't under Yoda's command. He was learning from Yoda but nowhere does it say he has to follow his advice.

Yoda was Luke's master and mentor. The master gives orders, the apprentice obeys. Simple as that.

I wasn't asking about his recklessness. I was asking why Yoda's warning on Vader's power wouldn't apply to RotJ Luke.

Because ESB Luke was too reckless to be mindful about Yoda's warning, ROTJ Luke wasn't reckless, emotionally unstable or impatient like ESB Luke.

Me neither. Which is why I assume he was accounting for taking on Sidious in some way.

He wasn't, and nothing suggests he did.

Well, me neither, which is why I think he was going to attempt to fight him in some way.

Baseless speculation. ROTJ Luke is never going to have the same success with any other duelists on this Gaunlet (forget Sidious) because he hasn't learned how to adapt to their fighting styles.

It's an assumption, yes. And it makes the most sense of any of the scenarios suggested so far.

No... No it absolutely doesn't.

Give up already and stop talking to me and responding to my points, just let it go.

@ordeith: OK... I spent more than 3 weeks trying to tolerate your nonsense and showing respect even though you a nuisance. I'm not going to respond to your points and take you seriously anymore because you are FLAGGED for throwing insults at me and using the F word.

@jashro44@jedixman Isn't this against the Rules?

You need to clam down. Calling people idiots and using the F word are against forum rules.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/battle-forum-rules-30-all-users-read-1767034/#1

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/site-rules-and-faqs-669033/#1

@ordeith: I'm changing my mind.

You think I didn't tag you on purpose?

Why not? You're clearly annoyed at the fact we've been arguing for over 3 weeks.

Luke was under no obligation to do so and we saw he clearly didn't follow Yoda's advice when it went against his own stances. The ending of ESB being a pretty clear demonstration of such.

You're using ESB Luke who isn't like ROTJ Luke in terms of personality.

But what does that have to do with Vader's power?

What does?

Except for the fact that he surrendered himself to be brought before the Emperor and he clearly wasn't planning on turning him meaning the only possible explanation was that he believe he would defeat him in combat or escape the Death Star with his father before it was blown up. And since you so adamant that that wasn't his intent I'd like to see your quote that confirms such ( confirms that that was not Luke's intent ).

What are you trying to say? Luke didn't want to fight Vader, he wanted to redeem him. But he still trained himself to learn how to defeat Vader nonetheless.

That's pretty irrelevant to Luke's actual intent. What the hell do you think he was planning to do about Sidious then?

Luke clearly thought Sidious was going to die because of the Rebels plans to blow up the Death Star.

You're an idiot. Tell me what the hell you think he was planning on doing about Sidious when he was brought before him if you think I'm wrong.

Nothing. ROTJ Luke had no intention of fighting Sidious, and it's even more crystal clear when you consider the fact that Luke says in ROTJ "Soon i'll be dead... And you with me" because of the Rebels' plans to blow up the Death Star which Luke and the Emperor are in.

There's your answer. Now stop asking me these annoying questions.

I know, he has just been stubbornly denying facts and common sense for the last few weeks and it finally got to me. My apologies.

I have not been denying any "facts" or "common sense" for the last few week. At this point, I suggest you stop responding to me once and for all because you called me an F***** dumbass.

@ordeith:

I am. That doesn't mean I'd attempt to weasel my way out of debating you and I'm offended by the insinuation which is why I insulted you ( along with the fact that you are being stubborn and refusing to accept common sense ).

What common sense? All you're doing is speculating and treating your fan theories as if they actually happened.

He's calmer and more thoughtful but I don't see why that would have changed his actions at the end of ESB. He puts his friend's before himself in RotJ as well.

Yeah... No he isn't reckless.

The quote.

What quote?

Yes.

Yes what?

You don't think Luke was prepared to fight him in some way though in case he nodded to stall to gain the Rebels more time?

No he didn't, and that'd be uncharacteristic of Luke to plan such a dangerous task. Luke was ready to die on the Death Star with the Emperor, he makes this crystal clear in ROTJ. Please stop throwing this far fetched speculation at me.

Read above.

I have.

You are an extremely frustrating individual.

So you are. I go through the trouble of responding to your points in a matter of almost 5 weeks which started because you thought Vader's familiarity with ESB Luke's fighting style would give him an advantage against ROTJ Luke in duelling (which is laughable) then you started saying ROTJ Luke wouldn't overspecialise against Vader when there's the possibility of him having to fight Sidious, which is a far fetched fan theory you can't prove. And even if Luke had intentions of fighting other Force users in duelling, that doesn't remotely contradict the idea of him overspecialising against Vader or prove it wrong. I don't care how you feel about the fact that Luke learned how to adapt to Vader's fighting style due to his knowledge and familiarity of it, the fact remains is that he's not familiar with every single duelist's fighting style in this gauntlet and will not necessarily have the same chance like he did against Vader in duelling. So please... Let it go. Stop being in denial over this. Stop pestering me about this over again... And again... And again and again! It's not even funny. It's pathetic. I don't mean to insult you or make you feel like a fool... It's you who is the one that's extremely frustrating - not me - you. I've been patient with you for the past 5 weeks with my notifications getting spammed by you, I also feel frustrated, but I'm not the one who's throwing insults, I'm not the one who's constantly making up fan theories and accusing the other of being absolutely wrong and having no evidence. I find it funny you kept on claiming I gave you evidence whatsoever about the idea of Luke learning how to adapt to Vader's fighting style, or using a technique that made his fighting style vastly different than ESB Luke's fighting style and whatever crap you accused me of. And what's worse about your posts is that you don't even directly respond to my points, you just half ass your responses which at times confused me at which one of my points you were referring to. And in case you try to act as if I am the one who's being delusional by responding to your posts for such a long period of time... Firstly, you're the one who started this discussion. I didn't ask you to keep talking to me, all I did was copy and paste the my analysis on the Luke vs Vader blog, annotating how Luke managed to win to clear a few things up. Then you come along, starting a pointless discussion, claiming I'm wrong about the idea of Luke learning how to adapt to Vader's fighting style, claiming I gave no evidence when I made my points, claiming I'm denying so called facts which are actually just your fan theories. Leave me alone and stop bothering me with this stupid discussion. It's literally the longest argument I've ever had in what has almost been 2 years since I got interesting in debating forums, discussions and anything related to fictional universes, and it hasn't exclusively been dedicated to Star Wars. Go away and leave me alone.Why? Because I feel like I'm being pressured by you.

@ordeith:

I'm explaining why my position is not only logical/rational but why it's the MOST logical/rational position that can be adopted here and then your response is to do the equivalent of plugging your ears and going "Nah ah!" It's like I'm bashing my head against a brick wall.

But it isn't. I'm sorry, but the idea of ROTJ having intentions of actually fighting Sidious NOT the most logical and rational position. And I also feel like I'm bashing my head against a brick wall, repeatedly, and between each time my head is repaired, only to get bashed again and again and again.

I didn't say he was. There you go again, attempting to twist my words. I said he's just as selfless and willing to sacrifice his own life for his friends.

Says the one who's now attempting to twist my words, I never accused you of saying he was still reckless, you said: "He's calmer and more thoughtful but I don't see why that would have changed his actions at the end of ESB. He puts his friend's before himself in RotJ as well."

I responded to that by establishing that ROTJ Luke isn't reckless, ESB Luke was warned about Vader's power like you said, but he never took it seriously. ROTJ Luke was warned about the Emperor's power, and unlike ESB Luke, he would have taken it seriously.

The quote where Yoda says Vader is powerful and to warn Luke of being careful.

And what's that supposed to mean? I'm sorry but the way you respond to my points without even making it clear which ones you're responding to by copying and pasting them in different sections makes it hard for me to comprehend.

How is it dangerous if he plans on dying anyways?!

Because he has this thing called Force sense (probably something you've never heard of) which would alert him of how powerful Sidious really is, especially a powerhouse like Sidious, and he'd realise he'd be a fool for trying to fight Sidious, and it'd be extremely uncharacteristic of ROTJ Luke to do this.

You obviously haven't, either that or you're incapable of understanding it.

I obviously have, you're the one who's incapable of understanding that I'm not wrong.

Vader having knowledge of how Luke fights is only logical since Luke's fighting style is based off of Vader's own.

No it isn't based on Vader's own fighting style. Luke mirrored Vader's use of Djem So in their fight on the Death Star, that doesn't mean Luke's fighting style is based on Vader's fighting style. And Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke in that fight, and was stated to be conflicted. So your point on the possibility of Vader having an advantage is meaningless.

What's laughable is your inability to understand this despite me attempting to do so for 5 weeks.

What's laughable is that you thought Vader having knowledge of ESB Luke's fighting style would give him an advantage against ROTJ Luke.

Luke not overspecializing against Vader is again, only logical ( something you seem incapable of being ) as he is not going to weaken himself against Sidious if he has to potentially fight him.

That proves nothing. And stop acting as if I'm saying Luke overspecializing against Vader would mean it would weaken himself, it absolutely doesn't. Luke necessarily exactly have the same chance against other opponents like he did against Vader. It does not weaken him.

It does because Luke being intelligent/logical would not weaken himself against other opponents ( I.E. the Emperor ) he might have to face. I didn't say he would. We're talking specifically about Vader. It matters because understanding why he performed against Vader as he did is important to understand how he will do against the opponents in the gauntlet.

Again, throwing fan theories at me that are very doubtful.

Honestly the only response I can give your little tirade is "Ditto." Your stubborn refusal to use common sense or process logic or the context of a situation is mind numbingly painful and something that causes me to both have pity and disgust for you.

I'm not denying any of your "common sense" or "process logic" or whatever you're proposing. I'm denying what people call:

You may not mean to insult me or make me feel like a fool but I hope I am to you.

You hope you're a fool to me?

Hopefully it will teach you not to be such a thick headed person in the future.

I'm not being a thick headed person, but I am very determined to respond to your points.

I am not the one constantly turning my away from conclusions that can be made using a little logic and common sense.

What conclusions? You mean your fan theories which are based on... Absolutely nothing.

If you can't understand that something can be or is likely true even when it's not spelled out in a quote then I'm sorry, but your personal inadequacy is not my fault.

The idea of ROTJ Luke considering the idea of fighting Sidious is nowhere near likely.

And again, simply because you are unable to understand my responses or the points I'm adressing, I can't be held responsible for your own handicaps.

I don't have "handicaps", I am constantly responding to you because your points make no sense.

I pointed out that your stance didn't make any sense and wasn't supported by the evidence we have

How did you point out my stance made no sense and wasn't supported by any evidence? Why don't you actually give me the actual evidence you keep talking about. And

or via logical deduction upon assessing Luke's situation and personality.

Nothing from ROTJ Luke's personality suggests he considered fighting the Emperor.

proceeded to doggedly defend your position for 5 weeks without bringing up a single shred of evidence in support of your original stance.

Which original stance are you referring to? I made several stances. One your responses to one of my original stances was that ROTJ Luke's fighting style wouldn't be vastly different then ESB Luke's fighting style and you repeatedly asked me to explain how ROTJ Luke would have a vastly different fighting style, and here was one of my responses that had evidence.

There's an example of me giving evidences that supports a stance I made. Where's yours?

In essence, 5 weeks of misdirection that ultimately proved fruitless. I do not wish to extend this discussion anymore then you do. I hope we can leave it here but if you respond I feel obligated to do the same.

Neither do I, but if you keep responding to me, I will keep responding to you because I feel obligated to do so. Why don't you give up?

None of the Moderators have even bothered locking this thread, this better be the ending of it.

You're not ending it... Weare ending it here.

Tbh i'd say 6

@ordeith: Don't call people thick headed in the future.

Bye.

OK, I'm just going to bump this thread for one simple reason, and it's probably a strange reason: I feel like I need to apologise to @ordeith.

I am sorry for prolonging this discussion over a time frame of 5 weeks by being really persistent, not allowing you to have the last word, repeating the same arguments and being refractory. We could have all just avoided all this if I had decided to shut up and move on.

Qui-Gon Jinn > RotJ Luke.

Ends in R1.

Qui-Gon Jinn has WAY better fighting technique in AotC than Luke has in RotJ.

O.M.G.

I meant The Phantom Menace...

Attack speed, reaction time, etc.

The style Qui-Gon used in The Phantom Menace > offensively & defensively to Luke & Vader's rather rudimentary style used in the "Original" Trilogy.

The only thing Luke has on Qui-Gon is stamina.

I believe Qui-Gon would win this before his stamina gets taxed, like when he was fighting Darth Maul.

@rockette: That was mostly just the editing of the time, honestly Luke even giving Vader trouble should put him way above Qui Gon.

Doesn't change the styles used. Qui-Gon's was better in every way.

@rockette: Dude Vader was way more powerful than Maul who beat Qui Gon, Luke was atleast on Vader's level, no way Qui Gon wins.

@ordeith:

"Luke >>>> Jinn in regards to combative speed."

Not shown in any video I've seen.

I'll trust my own eyes, and from what I've seen, Qui-Gon should carve Luke up faster than a fat man carving up a turkey, while starving, at Thanksgiving.