Revan (SoR) vs Yoda then Revan (SoR) vs Mace Windu

Two separate battles, not Revan vs Yoda and Windu at the same time.

Revan: Revan is a master of Niman, not especially strong against any other form but also not weak to any forms. Revan has experience in the other 6 forms but is not a master of any but Niman. Revan is considered to a legendary swordsman, capable of combating several opponents at once. In his final battle he combated 12 opponents at once, nearly claiming victory over them. Force Power: Revan is considered to be one of the most powerful Force users in history. A master of both the light and dark sides, Revan is able to channel the Force in its purest form. Revan is a highly skilled combative Force user, chaining Force based attacks into his combat sequences. Such abilities include powerful lightning strikes such as Force storms, telekinetic abilities, and some unorthodox abilities such as the creation of Force aberrations (blobs of primal, raw, pure, dark side energy) and teleportation. Other abilities: Revan is a military and tactical genius, capable of planning and even foreseeing the course of entire battles.

Yoda: Yoda was grand master of the Order and the most powerful Jedi alive during the Clone Wars near the end of the Republic. Yoda is considered to be among the greatest swordsman in history, a master of all 7 traditional forms of lightsaber combat (although due to his small stature he used mainly Ataru), Yoda was capable of holding his own against swordsman such as Count Dooku and even Darth Sidious. Yoda is considered to be one of the most powerful Jedi in history, capable of using powerful telekinetic abilities, as well as all other abilities common of the Jedi. Yoda was powerful enough to hold his own against Darth Sidious, even though Sidious was more powerful than even Yoda. Yoda was a skilled tactician, capable of formulating effective battle plans during engagements of the Clone Wars. Yoda, due to his size, strength in the Force, and preferred lightsaber form, was incredibly fast and agile, meaning he was capable of overwhelming most opponents with his speed alone.

Mace Windu: Known as one of the greatest swordsman of the Jedi Order's history, Mace Windu was a deadly force in combat. A practitioner of Vaapad, a form of his creation, Windu was capable of channeling an opposing dark sider's power into his own, fueling him for the fight's entirety. Windu's lightsaber skill was such that he was able to defeat the Sith Lord Darth Sidious in a lightsaber duel. Windu was also very strong in the Force, his most notable power being shatterpoint. With shatterpoint Windu could see his opponent's physical weaknesses in combat and exploit them. Windu was capable of most common Jedi abilities, including telekinetic pushes, however his strength in the Force allowed him to use these abilities to devastating effect.

Personal Opinion: I think Revan is capable of defeating Windu, but Yoda causes a big problem as Yoda is much faster than Revan is. A duel with Windu would be long and arduous, but eventually I think Revan'c advanced combative Force abilities would overwhelm Windu, as their skill with a blade appears to be rather equal. I'm not sure Revan could take Yoda thoughm like I said Yoda is just too fast, though I do think in terms of Force power Revan Yoda are equals, Revan just has more combative use in his powers. I think Yoda and Revan are about equal in the Force because Vitiate and Sidious are pretty much equal in terms of their raw Force power (Sidious has more knowledge of the Dark Side though) and neither Revan or Yoda was capable of defeating their respective Sith Emperor, but both came close. Just my personal opinion. Please tell me if you agree or disagree, no hating or rude/mean comments, there's no need to be a jerk.

Revan is not equal to Yoda in power but he is close.Definetely in the same tier (Yoda at the top, Revan at the bottom).

He loses to Yoda and beats Mace.

@jackofalltrades2: That's the conclusion I came to, Yoda is just too fast for most people to keep up.

Yoda beats Revan.

Revan beats Mace.

Yoda > Revan.

Revan > Mace.

what they said....

Revan's on Yoda's level?

@nfactor1995: Just about. If not, he's easily approaching it.

Why's that? Just out of curiosity.

@ziggystardust: By writers/dev Revan was the strongest force user in the galaxy, 2nd only to Emperor Vitiate/Valkorion as of SoR. Who is equal to or greater than Sidious.

@reikai:

I wouldn't scale him off Yoda in that sense. As everyone's claim to fame is based on statements on those lines. I have Revan a solid tier below the likes of Yoda/Sidious, which would look like this.

Top

Luke, Sheev, Vitiate, Yoda

High

Revan, Krayt, Caedus, Kun, Vader, Nhilus (unprepared)

Mid

Dooku, Maul, Malak

This is pertaining to overall combative abilty, not just rawness.

@reikai: Sidious is considered to be the most powerful Sith to have ever lived though so how is Vitiate greater than him? And Sidious should be a far superior duelist as well as being a bit better Force-wise than Vitiate.

@ziggystardust: Thing,everyone scales Yoda off of Sid, despite the fact Sid doesn't reach his peak until Dark Empire. Making scaling to his weaker form in RotS pointless. On the other hand, Revan faced Vitiate at one of his strongest points 300yrs prior, before Vitiate divided his power between himself, his self as Valkorian in Zakuul, along with his Voice and later his Children.

Basically, Revan fought a 100% Vitiate, while everyone else fought much weaker incarnations. Revan is maybe 50% Vitiate. Vitiate/Valkorian is =/> Dark Empire Sidious. Going by that, Revan is =/> Yoda.

It doesn't matter as there are several statements that don Sheev; the almighty, the strongest Sith Lord ever by Revenge of the Sith, and one by the time of Attack of the Clones. These are a myriad of character statements, sourcebooks and the personal opinion of Daniel Wallace :)

When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history."Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."

-- Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm

It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenseless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression.

-- Dark Empire Endnotes

Even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine. He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side.

--The Dark Side Sourcebook

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

-- Vader: The Ultimate Guide

"Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting."

-- The Complete Visual Dictionary

@ziggystardust: All of which is completely pointless, arbitrary and ultimately not only non-canon, but altogether incorrect and biased and based purely off George Lucas' whim. It's meaningless. The "strongest in history" comes down to "history of the rule of two". That's it. Feat and statements put Vitiate > DE Sidious. Which makes all those sources complete garbage.

@reikai:

Considering Daniel Wallace has written for a decent number of sourcebooks, including ones detailing the likes of the Sith Emporer, I'd place him just a bit above your opinion in terms of credibility ;)

And no, they're referring to the long line of Sith preceding Darth Bane. If I wanted to proove Palpatine's worth among the Banite sith, I'd have shared these:

When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered—in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane—only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strength of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge.

-- The Dark Side Sourcebook

Darth Sidious proved to be the grim culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings.

-- Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

The Sith have waited millennium for the birth of one who is powerful enough to return them from hiding. Darth Sidious is that one—the Sith's revenge on the Jedi order for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.

-- The Complete Visual Dictionary

The Sith Order, in hiding for a millennium, had awaited the birth of one who was powerful enough to return the Order to prominence. Darth Sidious was the fulfillment of that prophecy, capable of exacting the Sith's revenge on the Jedi for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force.

-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

@ziggystardust: All credibility goes out the window the moment new material is published. So his word is worthless. And is nothing more than reiterating what others told him. That's all. It was published pre-Revan Novel and SWTOR. Which makes it out of date, obsolete, and ultimately useless.

@reikai:

But wait, I've found another source on the matter that concretes Sidious as the pimera.

Palpatine is the most powerful sith lord ever. Yes Reikai, that includes Vititate

-The Most Up-To-Date-Not-Useless-And-Obsolete Star Wars Encyclopedia

I hope this solves our quandary :)

@darkdefender:

Haha :)

In fairness, Vitiate probably is a bit stronger than ROTS Palpatine by feats. But than again, Sheev isn't actively draining 1000's of sith acolytes to boost his power...

Dark Empire Palpatine rocks his world though. Can you name a feat greater than destroying the surface of an earth-sized planet? Can you?

@ziggystardust:Doing it while half a soul and incorporeal. For funsies.

@darkdefender: Disney said nothing about KotoR/SWTOR one way or another. They left it ambiguous, because it doesn't affect their movie continuity. So they don't care. And at no point did I say Vit/Val was the strongest Force User. That's your misinterpretation.

@reikai:

Ziost, especially at that point, is pretty huge focal point of darkside energy though. Courescant wasn't, and Courescant is quite a bit bigger according to sourcebooks.

Was Vitiate confirmed to be weakened during that interaction?

Lol Kotor and TOR are non-Canon. That's kinda why the whole new "Star Wars Canon timeline" doesn't include any of their works, be it the games or novels.

Revan's relatively close to Yoda's tier, but would still lose to him every time. He beats Mace for a hard-fought majority, though.

@darthbane77: revan had a 50/50 shot of taking down vitiate. He beats both though against yoda it plays out like episode 3 yoda vs sidious until revan uses some power yoda doesn't actually know

@reikai: the book even said revan had a 50/50 shot of winning. That would make vitiate and revan equal so.

@noah_ouellette: Actually it said Revan, Meetra and Scourge together had a 50/50 chance of defeating Vitiate at that time. Scourge lacked the power and experience of the other two and he knew it. So if Revan was 1/2 Vitiate, Meetra is like 30/100 and Scourge is like 20/100.

The problem was, Vitiate still wasn't quite serious yet and Scourge knew if the fight dragged out, they were all doomed. So his vision indicating someone else stopping Vitiate is what made him decide to backstab Meetra, which distracted Revan enough for to Vitiate to pwn him outright.

@reikai: Though I do think that Revan, Meetra and Scourge together could have defeated Vitiate. Though at least one of them (Meetra or Scourge) would have died.

@darthbane77: The issue was, Vitiate wasn't going all out, and there were still Imperial Guards coming. So dragging on the fight just means they lose, and there was no guarantee they'd win at all. Even Revan knew that. At the very least he was hoping to delay Vitiate's assault on the Republic. In the Foundry, Revan admits that he had failed to grasp the true depth of Vitiate's power. Indicating that Vit was hiding quite bit from Revan at the time.

@reikai: I think Revan was talking about his first encounter with Vitiate. If I am wrong about that though I still don't think Vitiate held much back. Vitiate obviously knew Revan was a serious threat. Otherwise he wouldn't have locked Revan in stasis in the Maelstrom (a nearly un-navigable system).

@darthbane77: He wanted to use Revan, not kill him. Pry the secrets from his mind about the Republic and Jedi, and find out how Revan broke his control before, as well as how he managed to find his way back. Considering at first the Mandalorians were meant to weaken the Republic before the Empire invaded, and then a controlled Revan since Mandalore failed. But Revan's return to the Empire to assassinate Vitiate threw his previous plans out the window.

It was only during his imprisonment that Revan could grasp the full measure of Vitiate's power, having been in constant mental struggle with him the whole while. He had 300yrs to get an in-depth feel of Vitiate's power. He does admit that Vitiate wasn't going all out. Vitiate got angry, to be sure, but he wasn't using his full strength because he wanted Revan alive.

Even in SoR, Marr states that none of them have to power to contend with Vitiate, even if they all worked together. And Revan's Light Half expressly tells himself that he's too weak divided to even have a hope against the Sith Emperor.

Simply put, yeah

@reikai: Revan in SoR was more powerful than book Revan by a lot. Based on what we see I think SoR Revan could put up a decent fight against Vitiate (though he would still lose). If Revan had achieved his full potential (he was only half of what he could have been in SoR) I think he could have beaten Vitiate. Regardless I still think Revan put up a good fight. Agree to disagree.

@darthbane77: The "full potential" arguments are pretty pointless. Revan is stated to have unlimited potential. But that's basically true of any Force User who comes to realize there is no upper limit. More than anything is just Time needed to become stronger. That's it. Given that, by SWTOR Vitiate has been around for 1500yrs. So his power being what it is is rather justifiable.

Far as Revan is concerned between his Novel and SoR self, Novel Revan had practically no time to recover before facing Vitiate because time was of the essence. While Dark Revan did fight a team of very powerful people, they are all rather admittedly weaker than Revan. The Dread Masters were considered a grave threat, and Revan is placed above their collective ability.

I feel Revan can take this. I don't believe Yoda is stronger in the Force than him. The only thing I could say Yoda could win is in a saber duel. Not because he's better than Revan, but because there is no one else who can fight like Yoda. I don't give too much credit to the Vs series on Youtube. But one thing I will give the guy on Yoda is that Yoda is the absolute master of Ataru, for the fact his stature makes his agility and speed with that style completely unmatched.

Even being a master of all forms, there is a limit to the degree in which each form can be utilized. Bane mastered all seven forms, but Djem So is the one he could best utilize because of his physical stature. Similarly, Yoda is perhaps of the only race that can utilize the maximum potential of the Ataru form of combat. A form that relies heavily upon speed and agility. There just isn't anyone who can use it to the degree that he can. While this does mean Yoda is conceivably weaker in all other forms because of his size, he is unsurpassed in Ataru and to such a degree that he can readily compete with the larger competitors.

Although there were members of Yoda's race as Jedi masters in Revan's time, there aren't any with the kind of renown that Yoda possessed. And the only one we saw in SWTOR died off-screen in one of the ships assaulting the Maelstrom Prison.

@thevivas: No it is not Legends, SWTOR has it's own universe that Disney isn't touching. It's basically like this:

Disney Canon.

SWTOR Universe

Star Wars Legends

SWTOR is it's own thing separate from the others, they made that clear.

@sithrevenant: Uh no it's not. There's Canon and Legends. SWTOR doesn't have its own category or Canon.

@thevivas: Bioware already confirmed they fit into neither and that Disney isn't changing anything to do with them. This is old news, Bioware's SWTOR is basically considered an alternate timeline of sorts.

No, Palpatine > Vitiate. That's just Star Wars fact. Any Sith Lord prior to Palpatine is inferior to his power. Statements of Palpatine being the most powerful Sith Lord are with regards to his ROTJ iteration, not Dark Empire.

@darkdefender said

@reikai: 0-o Jen/Reti? Is that you?

I doubt it, that person was giving too much respect for Yoda.

@sithrevenant said:

@thevivas: Bioware already confirmed they fit into neither and that Disney isn't changing anything to do with them. This is old news, Bioware's SWTOR is basically considered an alternate timeline of sorts.

A source for this would be very helpful to those who are giving you push back. But it's my understanding that SWTOR rests within Legends continuity, which in and of itself, is not "non-canon". LucasFilm, not Disney, made the distinction and never once was it stated that Legends is not canon, only that it is not gospel (which is already how it was treated in the past).

@SilentBat: Palpatine has statements putting every incarnation of him since TPM as the most powerful Sith ever.

@shootingnova: Thanks for the clarification. I've not seen theses statements made about Palpatine during TPM though.

@SilentBat: Well, most of the "most powerful" quotes are actually in reference to RotS, not RotJ, as you claimed above. As for the TPM quote, it's this:

Meet Darth Sidious - the most powerful Sith Master who ever lived.

Source: Darth Maul, Sith Apprentice

Which was published after vanilla SWTOR was released (not that it has to be, I'm just appeasing people making up their own continuity rules), so yes, it applies to Vitiate as well.

@shootingnova: There you have it.

Adjusting the topic to a more specific aspect of this fight: speed/reflex.

I am of the camp that Yoda does not stomp or speed blitz Revan (and I think overall the notion that Yoda can do so to many people is rather overblown). But I'd like to hear some of the Revan supporters and why you think he would be able to contend purely with Yoda's speed. Often times I hear the arguments about his contention with the Echani, but from what I gather the Echani were just peak humans, so why should that be all that impressive when Yoda is contending with the speeds of Sidious.

Revan beats Mace.

Yoda bests Revan, with ease.