Reinhard Heydrich (Dies Irae) vs Thor (Marvel Comics)

Nazi vs Asgardian

Rules:

1. 616 base Thor is being used. Warrior Madness mode is also allowed.

2. Reinhard is in his Atziluth state

3. Reinhard is allowed to use the abilities of other LDO members, but can't summon them for aid. Skeletal army is fair game though.

4. Fight location takes place in Marvel's New York

I'm almost certain there's no one around to rep Reinhard, in which case I can post stuff if necessary.

Buuuuuut that'd also be a long post since the man has a lot

Sorry to say, but you're pretty much alone on here now when it comes to Shinza. All of its debaters left a long time ago for various reasons. Though they were generally insane people to the point you'd probably prefer them not being around. Maybe you can turn around the fanbase's horrendous reputation, at least on here, since you're a reasonable guy that makes high-quality posts on the verse.

Granted, the Shinza fanbase is one of many that have exited CV. Even more popular ones you barely see ever mentioned anymore.

As for the fight, I have no opinion sadly, as Marvel is a really bad verse to scale normally. Not because it's too weak or strong. It's just too inconsistent, countless conflicting versions, etc., so I plan to stay away from this.

Show the most powerful feat of this version of Reinhard and I tell you if Thor has something better.

Thor via Superhero logic, from what I have heard the Hadou Gods are no different from the regular roster of antagonist Gods that Marvel Superheroes (especially Thor) often make a fool out of via their Superhero Logic.

Unless Thor has consistent multiversal feats I don't see how he wins this.

@mutantheroic said:

Thor via Superhero logic, from what I have heard the Hadou Gods are no different from the regular roster of antagonist Gods that Marvel Superheroes (especially Thor) often make a fool out of via their Superhero Logic.

What the hell lol. This whole panel is just "when the plot requires us to do something."

I'll post stuff for Reinhard when I have the time. Gotta do a bit of digging in Interview with Kaziklu Bey to Gran scans

@originalsin: @sagathelegend:616 Thor is consistently outerversal which is many infinities more powerful than multiversal.

@mutantheroic: btw, about that scan, don't the Marvel characters still like...die and shit? Like, a lot? Seems weird.

Can we not use dimensional scaling. Literally isn't a thing outside of vs wiki, and that has issues in of itself

@originalsin: sure, but it helps play a part in power levels,

Consistently building level more like.

• Killed by sewage wires and needs to be revived by Surfer
• Knocked out by an Avalanche and again
• Thinks falling into Magma would be fatal
• Scared of falling rocks
• Pinned by rocks
• Pinned by boulder
• Knocked out by falling rock
• Hit by a falling boulder and is down
• Arm pinned by a Iron-Shafted Javelin
• Can't endure rockets for longs and uses a wall to block them
• Stunned by falling helicopter
• Knocked out by flying into steel girders
• Hit by a falling mast which knocks him out and almost leads to him drowning
• Stunned by stick of dynamite
• Villain that overpowered Thor is killed by a fall
• Opponent that was evenly matched by Thor would have been killed by a fall
• Monster that tanked and pinned Thor is crushed by a collapsing castle
• Thor fears falling and has to break it
• Can only lift 95 tons
• With his power halved he can't lift a building or a vehicle
• Skyscraper withstands the full force of Thor and Godzilla before eventually starting to crack
• Exhausts himself slightly lifting a ship
• Needs She-Hulks help to stop a capsizing ship
• Can't support a river for long
• Scared of dying from falling off a building
• Would have been killed by a fall
• Struggles to support a collapsing building and needs Spiderman's help
• Unable to support a falling building
• Incapacitated by a falling building
• Mentions how he can't throw a skyscraper as easily as Nefaria and the rubble could crush him
• Pinned by cars for a full minute
• Can't fight a horde of sharks head on and has to resort to creating a vortex to beat them
• Needs nearly a minute to slay a tiger
• Would have been crushed by stone if not for Mjolnir
• Could have been restrained by Steel Tentacles and would have barely survived a falling block
• WW2 mine explodes in his face which briefly leaves him stunned
• Knocked out by exploding mortar
• Floored by artillery craft
• IV needle is able to penetrate his skin
• Mightiest blows fail to fully dig through a mountain
• Thor and friends would have died to a large nuke level blast and needed to be shielded by Sue
• Blown away by a nuke while under Warrior Madness
• Two nuclear missiles can only be temporarily contained by Odin-Force Thor
• Struggles to slow down train
• Scared of dying from falling into spikes

@properbeop: It’s as logical as Finite Omnipotence, 2 + 2 = 5 Finite Infinity etc.

Yes, Marvel Superheroes die but it doesn't matter. It is heavily implied in Marvel (and DC) that the Superheroes are just being manipulated by some powerful narrative force that manipulates how strong they are and manipulates their destiny depending on the context or situation, which explains why Marvel Superheroes are the ones always doing everything to successfully solve Multiversal Wars against antagonist gods like the Beyonders and First Firmament who in my view are barely different from the Hadou Gods while those like LT are kinda useless.

The thing is, you set this fight to take place in the Marvel Universe, so I presume we're going by how Marvel works when a Superhero and an antagonist God fight. Even if Thor dies, he'll probably just come back somehow by the narrative, and the narrative will somehow make Reinhard lose somehow to a Superhero which often happens in Marvel.

Examples of Superhero Logic at play: Marvel Gods get infinitely weaker, i.e. "forced" to a finite measure when fighting the "Super-Story" and get beaten by Superheroes on the level of Thor.

This here is gold, pure gold

Absolute gold, saved

Bro threw out a few buzzwords and got buried by a mountain of scans. lmao

@hatsonmelo: PIS.

-Made storms that shook the entire World Tree and every Realm in it’s branches by crying as a baby (Avengers 1000 000 BC Issue 1)

-Enchantress trying to bring backExecutioner threatened the world tree, stopping it is outright stated as saving “all realities” (Thor God-Size special)

-Redirects the energy of the Null bomb, that bomb being capable of wiping out all life on the black galaxy, even the rocks are alive in that galaxy so they mean blow it up, also it’s described as its own living universe with it’s own space-time multiple times, so probably universelevel. (407)

-Blocks the explosion of a life-bomb, but dies in the process. Possibly meant to destroy other realms as well as the main 616 Universe, would destroy at least ⅕ th of it had it not been contained. (Avengers Annual #16)

-Thor can draw upon the magnetic forces of the galaxy,while weakened. (101)

-Will crumble a galaxy and lay waste to the cosmos if necessary (166)

-Fought a suicidal Mar-Vell who was trying to get Thor to kill him due to absorbing a star that Thanos modified into destroying the entire universe (Captain Marvel ‘68 #57)

-4 Thors combining their energy blasts held back the collapse of all alternate planes of reality. Parallel worlds, infinite worlds, all this is still contained in the universal Eternity who is being damaged and then saved (Thor Corps) (Negative Zone is in U-Eternity)

-The God Tempest in Mjolnir shook planets half a universe away (Mighty Thor 2016 #17)

-Survives the partial explosion of the unbinding stone which can destroy all of reality (also moves in a place where time has no meaning) (Thor: Deviants #5)

-Breaks out of tesseract, a self contained universe, because his body transcends dimensions. Worth noting that when seeing the tesseract, Thor implies he’d have no trouble breaking it. Also claims his God Blast can knock Ego out. (Astonishing Thor)

-Creates a universe shaking thermo blast (132)

-Thor pushes the world engine, overpowering the world tree itself, in the story it’s portrayed asencompassing all reality (Thor: World engine)

-Thor’s battle shakes the foundations of the underworld to the furthest reaches of the realm (thor (1966) #362)

-Thor creates a storm in asgard that breaks buildings and mountains all the way on Earth (188)

-Thor makes the Nine worlds and Yggdrasil itself shiver while in battle with the Midgard serpent (380)

-Battles the Midgard Serpent, which can stretch from Asgard to Midgard (see below, universe length, lot of artistic license to display this but it’d already been established) (327)

-Withstands and overpowersinfinitely increased gravity

-An explosionrivaling the Big Banggoes off, Thor survives. It did in fact kill some of the people there, so he wasn’t shielded. Notably the High evolutionary and recorder seem semi-intact from this (424)

-Clashing with another Thor creates energy comparable to the Big Bang, MERGING INFINITE TIMELINES into one (439)

-Lokibattles Seth in his realms, considering himself superior even there, Seth only winning via having more reserves. And Odin thoughtThor could defeat Seth. Same issue he will destroy the world tree, wiping out all life in the multiverse (511-513)

-Tanks blast from the Casket of Ancient Winters, which can freeze Helfrom Asgard in a fairly short time(multiversal area freezing) (1998, 31-32), additionally the Gem of infinite suns is what cancels it out and Thori can kill a shark empower by it (2018 #2)

-Thor Fighting in Nidavelir, shakes the ground in Asgard and the sky in Midgard (Trial of thor)

-Sound of fallen frost Giant can be heard in Hel from Asgard, and in Asgard from Jotunheim “ringing out across all worlds” (Age of thunder)

-Frost Giant queen freezes realms for 40 days and 40 nights, “Asgard, midgard and every place in between”, weapon that kills her is < Mjolnir. Also Sleipneir shaking all worlds between Mid and Asgard. And Blood colossus making the 9 worlds shudder. Also Thor fights for 40 days and nights. (Reign of Blood)

-Thor, 40 day & Night rampage through all worlds of creation , shattered the root of Yggdrasil (contextualized later as being the heart of everything), then fights Odin who is equipped with the destroyer armor and Odinsword (But loses, of course) (Man of war)

-Despite being leagues underwater, his rage is heard throughout the nine realms (Loki 2010 #4)

-All the power of the universe flowed through Donal Blake when he became Thor (#502)

-Jormungand (The World Serpent)’s battle with Odin stretched as Long, deep and bloody as the Roots of Yggdrasil themselves (Thor 2020 #9)

-Thor makes a storm that rattles the heavens all the way to Earth, despite originating in Asgard (Heroes reborn 2021 #6)

-Shakes the World Tree from Root to Branch (Thor 2018 #4)

–Battle with Gorr makes the World Tree bleed at the roots (Thor god of thunder #9)

-Book of infinite pages, Thor lifts it as a kid (Thor 2020 #8)

-Modok twists the World Tree beyond recognition by absorbing the full power of the World Tree.

Thor defeats him, despite his all-father powers having been stolen (Thor annual 2023)

1. Fought and defeatedSurtur and Glory (who had absorbed several pantheons) (Chaos war)

   -Hela claims Thor’s speed is beyond comprehension (361)

   -Fought Zeus for months, admitting Thor > Titans and the gods of Olympus which would include Atlas, Herc, Hermes, Venus,etc... (see below) (Annual 8)

   -Broke the armor of a Celestial used a god blast amped by the belt of strength to break a shell around it’s brain, shattering mjolnir in the process (388)

   -Battles Shiva (Thor #301), a weaker hindu god can become galaxy-sized (heroic age, prince of power 1)-In issues where he is repeatedlyestablished as a universal threat, Galactus is forced back by Thor’s God Blast (161)-Surtur will destroy Asgard (the realm, not the city) and then the universe. Thor takes a hit in the same issue. (177)-Battles the god of unlimited power and infinite energy (thor 1998, 10-11)

   -Godblast pierces someone who’d absorbed the power of Odin (1998, 12)

   -Beats up Surtur enough to make him run away and again (Rage of Thor)

   -Battles Hela with relative ease, Hela resorting to cheating (Wolves of the North)

   -Battles Ymir deflecting a blast, Ymir can battle Surtur (Where walk the frost giants)

   -Battles post-anihillation Surfer (Thor 2011 #3-4)-Breaks Galactus’ Helmet (^)

   -Battled the demogorge shattering its teeth ,a being from beyond space and time which absorbs dead gods,ultimately killing, it, said demogorge took an attack from all hell lords combined and is >Ragnarok, undoes fusion of seven netherworlds(^#9-12) (annual 10)

   -Surfer is impressed by Mjolnir’s speed while trying and failing to catch up (^#10)

   -Kills Surtur with the shadowblade of his own Twilight Sword (Surtur was likely amped during the everything burns story arc) (2011 #21)

   -Broke Gram /Sigurd’s Sword of Truth while unworthy. (Effects explanation) It clashed with Laevateinn, cut a disguisedMephisto, Thor, power negates Hate (Loki: Agent of Asgard #10, rest of run for feats)

   -As a Child, created the fiercest storm any god could remember, which would be > God-tempest (King Thor #4)

   -Jane Thor lightning Blast takes out 3 Mephistos at once and 2 Janes beat them (Avengers 2018 #56)

   -Dents and breaksthroughadamantium plated doors, while weakened (Thor 2014 #3)

   Abilities/resistances

   -Fights a war for 2 years without stopping (Thor 2020 #3)

   -Could do battle for a century according to Hela (v1 489)

   -Has his mind/body/psyche/soul torn to shreds, yet survived and eventually reformed because someone prayed to him, providing him the spark needed to reform (Chaos war)

   -Temporarily took control of the demogorge after being consumed (annual #14)

   -Even if memory of him is erased and he goes to the place where dead gods go, if someone taps the cane, he back, he also kills the demagogue after that (Thor 2011 #8-10) -Cane that turns into mjolnir “lives in 2 places, here and beyond”, is of two spaces (^)

   -Can enter the astral plane, allowing him to freely move across time and space (Thor Heaven and Earth#2)

   -Thor can erase memories

   -Thor can drain Godly essences and manipulatesouls, which also shudders the fabric of infinity (432)

   -Can make a field that negates mystical energies, depowering Juggernaut (429)

   -Can depower from outside sources in general, Including Infinity (#186)

   -Anti-force blast (‘98 #10-11)

   -Matter manipulation (#115)

   -Can send others to a dimension of death (works on immortals) (425)

   -Traps someone in an Orb (Avengers #70)

   -Hammer spin negates a time stop (Spider-rama Marvel team up #7)

   -Breaks himself out of the shared dream, of the mares, which affected Hela and people across the nine realms (2011 #15-17)

   -Withstands and recovers from an assault on his mind from the hive mind of The Other a threat to all Creation, resisting the pull of its mind (2011 annual)

   -Survives possession by Rokkva, Anti-life, makes life “Cease to be” (Valkyrie:Jane foster #8-10)

@seventhmoon: Well just finished rechecking Interview with Kaziklu Bey. Before I post anything else I wanna ask, iirc you said you had issues with infinite speed awhile back. May I know? Seems straightforward to me if a character does cross an infinite distance (not that that's Shinza's argument for it)

I'm not entirely against the idea of infinite speed, but I think it needs to be handled a certain way. I'm actually both more lenient and strict on it at the same time compared to others.

I'm busy currently, so I'll get back to you on it tomorrow.

@originalsin: The thing about infinite speed is having literal infinite reaction time doesn't make much sense, as you'd have completely every single action you ever would make in an instant and not really be a sentient being anymore. You'd just be an actualized phenomena across time. And you can't really cross an infinite distance with spatial movement, as there are really no coordinates to go to, as you're dealing with endless space.

I think infinite speed can work in the sense that one may be moving in a former of "hypertime", as in moving in a different axis of time that the normal time axis is stagnate in comparison to, making you appear to be infinite from its perspective. However, you'd still be at some form of finite speed in that different axis. And this being cross-verse applicable is... eh, kinda wonky.