Qui-Gon Jinn vs. Ben Kenobi

Not sure. I'm leaning Qui-Gon, but I would have to give this more thought before concluding it completely.

Isn't ben like.... 20 years older than Qui-gon? And we saw qui-gon be much more agile. Why would Ben even have a chance?

Qui-Gon. Old Obi has way less impressive feats.

Jensaari's videos are not canon, and at times he has inaccurate descriptions. That said, he has a fairly decent summary of the duel in that video.

If this is movies, Qui-Gon wins. Ben has demonstrated nothing that Qui-Gon couldn't do.

Regarding the EU, Qui-Gon beats Ben in strength, likely speed and TK. However, Ben's Soresu was able to hold against Vader, and I see no reason why Qui-Gon's Ataru would be any more effective in penetrating Ben's defense, considering how Ben knows how Qui-Gon fights, but Qui-Gon doesn't know Ben's technique. His Soresu could potentially last long enough for Ataru's physical demands to drain Qui-Gon of energy, and then a swift counterattack could wear down Ataru's weak defenses and proceed to fell Qui-Gon.

That is basically Kenobi's only way of winning. If his defenses can't hold against Qui-Gon, then he gets slain. If telekinetics become part of the duel, Qui-Gon likely wins.

That said, I don't see why Kenobi's defensive/stalling techniques couldn't hold against Qui-Gon, especially considering how Ben has the advantage of familiarity with Qui-Gon's technique.

I'm not sure who would win a majority, as of now.

This one is really, really really close. I don't know who I would take for the majority. I would say Obi-Wan out of my hate for Qui-Gon ( I loathe him with a passion) but that would be me being bias. =/

One does not simply loathe a character played by Liam Neeson, Zeus himself.

@retconcrisis:

One does not simply loathe a character played by Liam Neeson, Zeus himself.

I'm sorry, but Liam Neeson sucked as Qui-Gon. Q__Q

Not a suprise seeing as how the whole Phantom Menace movie sucked in general.

@dccomicsrule2011: I'm just kidding, Neeson showed a lot less emotion as Qui-Gon than I had first anticipated. The only decent acting role in the entire movie was probably Ewan McGregor. And even his performance wasn't that good. Both McGregor and Neeson, seem to be much better actors outside of The Phantom Menace.

@retconcrisis: Ian McDiarmid had good acting too.

@shootingnova: Oh yeah, completely forgot about him. He was great in the entire prequel trilogy.

@retconcrisis: I think Ian, Christopher Lee and Ewan McGregor were the only good actors in the prequels.

Yeah. And Samuel L. Jackson as Windu was basically a calmer Samuel L. Jackson.

@retconcrisis: You could kinda tell he was about to swear, at times.

Qui Gon. Ben was pretty weak at this point, and Vader showing against him was all that more poor for Vader lol.

Could go either way, though I'd support Jinn if I had to choose.

id give it to Jinn

Jinn

Old Ben wins. He's more powerful, and more skilled. And he managed to compensate for his weaker physical traits against Vader who quite honestly dwarfs Jinn in such categories.

And when Vader dwarfed Jinn ? Jinn still had greater mobility than Vader,

Gallery

and Jinn is physically stronger than Ben, and he still has greater reflexes as we see from Maul fight, while young Kenobi gets trashed, Jinn was managing to hold his own, against someone superior duelist to Vader.

I can't tell if Obi-Wan is really that good or if Qui-Gon Jinn is extremely low-balled all the time. I always thought that Qui-Gon was supposed to be one of the order's best fighters but on CV he can't win against almost anyone besides like padawans and unnamed Jedi.

@nfactor1995: That's more because of ignorance, Qui-Gon already won against a couple of Jedi Masters in a tournament and defeated Master Tahl in the final. He also defeated Xanatos, who is easily Master level, and also Anoon Bondara. And Dooku stated that he would expect more from Jinn's padawan, which is implying that Jinn is better than AotC Kenobi as well.

I know right lamo.

Most dont seem to feel this way :)

@sirfizzwhizz: I mean, I guess logically we could go by an old Obi-Wan rivaling Darth Vader is better than Qui-Gon Jinn rivaling Darth Maul, but losing, and I don't think we can take choreography into account due to the 20ish year difference between the two trilogies. However I do think that Qui-Gon could put up a good fight against Vader in strictly a lightsaber duel.

@erkan12: Vader moving faster than Ferus Olin or Aurra Sing can see dwarfs anything Vader did.

and Jinn is physically stronger than Ben,

Wouldn't matter. So was Vader and he held him off no problem.

and he still has greater reflexes as we see from Maul fight,

Vader and Maul have similar reflexes, and Vader was concearned that if he lets his guard down Kenobi would kill him within an eye blink:

Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye.

Source: Death Star

Jinn was managing to hold his own, against someone superior duelist to Vader.

Based on what is Vader inferior to Maul? The Maul clone fight is non-canon and/or just an illusion that not even Leland Chee can make sense of. It's not at all a valid argument. And Maul toyed with Jinn the entire time.

@nfactor1995: Jinn is pretty underrated here. Jinn has already shown he's not far behind Maul as a swordsman. The only reason why he lost seemingly easily on Naboo is because Maul took a more calculated and cautious approach. Though even when Maul had gotten Jinn to an area of his choosing Jinn lasted a considerable amount of time, despite being tired. On Tatooine when they were both going all out it was a close fight and they were fighting as equals for the majority of it. Yet some people here think he loses to people like Ahsoka, which is pretty sad, tbh.

@wollfmyth: And same Vader get discredit and low showings from inferior combatants than Jinn before so Vader isn't very consistent in that regard, and Aurra was still more mobile than Vader and he only did that via his reflexes (and also Aurra underestimated Vader's reflexes because of Vader's sloppy look) which he isn't going to do the same to Qui-Gon, Ben also never teleported behind Vader or never manage to cut him from behind, considering that inferior duelist than Ben did that against Vader before, Ben is clearly slower than his previous himself and clone Maul fight isn't non-canon as the near-official starwars wikia confirmed it, and that fight is one of the top 20 EU moments. And we've also GL approval, says that main prequel fighters such as Maul are superior to OT fighters such as Vader. (except RotJ Luke)

Maul toyed with Jinn ? I highly doubt, Jinn send Maul flying with a punch, granted, TPM Kenobi distracted Maul, but still it's shows that Maul wasn't toying with Jinn in their duel.

@erkan12:

And same Vader get discredit and low showings from inferior combatants than Jinn before so Vader isn't very consistent in that regard,

But that's Vader who was getting used to his suit.

and Aurra was still more mobile than Vader and he only did that via his reflexes which he isn't going to do the same to Qui-Gon,

He was literally stated to have moved faster than her:

In a movement preternaturally fast, but which somehow looked almost languid, Vader ducked, reached up, and with one gloved hand lightly tapped her in the middle of her back. A serious thrust catching her in that position could have broken her spine. The Dark Lord’s touch was more of a caress. He was letting her know what he could have done.

Source: Coruscant Nights II: Street of Shadow

He's definitely faster than Sing and she actually landed a hit on Qui-Gon:

Clearly Vader is faster.

Ben also never teleported behind Vader or never manage to cut him from behind, considering that inferior duelist than Ben did that against Vader before, Ben is clearly slower than his previous himself

So Ben is slower than he was in RotS? I agree but that doesn't matter as Obi in RotS is faster than Jinn.

and clone Maul fight isn't non-canon as the near-official starwars wikia confirmed it, and that fight is one of the top 20 EU moments.

Near-official wikia. Note the near as the key word. And Insider later noted that, despite the fact that it made it's way into the Top 20 EU moments, it's technically in a separate universe altogether. I gave you that quote ages ago and you still deny.

Maul toyed with Jinn ?

Considering he mused he could've killed him quickly on Tatooine had it not been for his leg injury.

I highly doubt, Jinn send Maul flying with a punch, granted TPM Kenobi distracted Maul, but still it's shows that Maul wasn't toying with Jinn in their duel.

Jinn landed a hit on a distracted Maul. That doesn't really mean Maul was going all-out. Especially considering how he was just defensive and leading Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon to his location.

@zaluk said:

Yeah, I agree that Jinn is rather annoyingly underrated especially placing him under Ahsoka...

I'd rate him as an upper Tier 8 duellist along the likes of Ventress and Plo. I think its just the fact that his best duelling feats come from a battle which he lost in the end... so that can sort of blind some people from his true capabilities (especially considering the calibre of his opponent)

Do you think we'll ever get any new material from Disney i.e comics and novels that show him during his Prime?

@wollfmyth: And she escaped ? She accepts the fact that she is no match for them, which shows that Jinn's superiority.

''You two are more than I bargain for.'' - Aurra Sing , If you think she is somehow capable of doing the same easily, she wouldn't try to escape from them in first place.

Vader's amusement was now boundless. Black-gloved hands spread wide. "But if you kill me, Aurra Sing, then who will remain to authorize payment of the credits you so ardently desire?"

Turning her head to one side, she spat deliberately onto the polished floor. "I've already filled out the necessary forms." "Wonderful!" he said, laughing again. "You are more than I hoped you would be. I foresee the development of a lasting and mutually beneficial professional relationship between us." Flattery washed off the bounty hunter like mercury off steel. "I only continue to work for someone whom I respect—and who respects me." "So it's respect you want, is it?" He took a step forward and she tensed, both hands clenching slowly. "I thought it was only a sum of credits. Money is easily given, Sing. It is nothing more than chaff. Respect—respect cannot be given. It must be earned." She came straight at him.

one out-thrust fist would be in his face and she would see what that composite armor was made of. She knew of no one who had ever seen what lay beneath that mask. She intended to be the first.

Her fist never made contact. Raising his right hand and bringing it around in a swift arc, Vader blocked the blow and sent the body behind it flying across the room. As she flew, a startled but still wholly self-aware Sing tucked and rolled. She hit the opposite wall hard, bounced off, landed on her feet, and immediately came at him again.

"The reflexes of an animal," Vader murmured. His lightsaber hung at his waist. He ignored it, his fingers going nowhere near the weapon. "That's what the Empire needs: a few more well-trained, domesticated animals." what the Empire needs: a few more well-trained, domesticated animals."

"Domesticated? I'll show you who's domesticated!" She leapt high, kicking out, and in midthrust somehow bent sideways to kick harder with her other leg.

In a movement preternaturally fast, but which somehow looked almost languid, Vader ducked, reached up, and with one gloved hand lightly tapped her in the middle of her back. A serious thrust catching her in that position could have broken her spine. The Dark Lord's touch was more of a caress. He was letting her know what he could have done. Landing in a crouch, a feral expression on her face, she raced at him again, low this time. Her speed was startling: a droid would have been hard-pressed to match her acceleration. She dropped low to the floor and swung her right leg around in a powerful circle sweep. Her intent was to take his legs out from under him.

She might as well have been trying to cut down a bronzewood tree. At the last instant the Dark Lord thrust both hands downward toward the spinning bounty hunter. A profound surge in the Force rippled through the room. Guards posted at a distance in the hallway nearby were nearly knocked off their feet by it. But the strength of the emanation had not been directed at them.

---- Coruscant Nights II: Street of Shadows

With only reflexes, granted, Vader is better, but he still needs to work for Sing's agility and mobility, that's why he used the force in the end. Not to mention Sing was underestimating Vader by ''a droid would've been hard-pressed to match her acceleration.'' part. She was holding back she didn't use her full speed, ''Her speed was startling'' and she would be successful if not for Vader's telekinesis stop in the end.

And as I said, Vader gets caught by some Jedi Masters speed, who are inferior to Ben Kenobi, clearly Kenobi was far from his prime that he failed to gain advantage with his speed against Vader.

Jinn is still more mobile than Vader is, and strong enough to match with Maul, which is why he can press his Ataru attacks on Kenobi, who is slower than previous himself.

@erkan12:

And she escaped ? She accepts the fact that she is no match them at the same time, which shows that Jinn's superiority.

It shows Jinn's and Obi-Wan's superiority when they're together. And the fact that Vader dodged and deflect all of Aurra's unarmed hits whereas Jinn couldn't even dodge one suggests Vader is simply faster, or has better reflexes. And the quote I posted above shows Old Ben's speed > Vader's reflexes for if Vader gets distracted for even an eyeblink he's dead. In other words, Old Ben is likely faster, even if he isn't ultimately as mobile.

And Vader commenting on Aurra's reflexes has nothing to do with him moving faster than her, tbh.

And as I said, Vader gets caught by some Jedi Masters speed,

While adapting to his suit.

who are inferior to Ben Kenobi, clearly Kenobi was far from his prime that he failed to gain advantage with his speed against Vader.

Probably because Vader's excellent reflexes.

Jinn is still more mobile than Vader is, and strong enough to match with Maul, which is why he can press his Ataru attacks on Kenobi, who is slower than previous himself.

Jinn being more mobile is irrelevant. His reflexes, speed and overall strength pales in comparison to Vader's. So he ain't pressing Kenobi at all.

I want to say Jinn

@wollfmyth: As I said, she was going to do the same thing to Vader when she is starting to use her full speed, but the difference is Vader used the force to stop her.

Her speed was startling: a droid would have been hard-pressed to match her acceleration. She dropped low to the floor and swung her right leg around in a powerful circle sweep. Her intent was to take his legs out from under him.

She might as well have been trying to cut down a bronzewood tree. At the last instant the Dark Lord thrust both hands downward toward the spinning bounty hunter. A profound surge in the Force rippled through the room.

--- Streets of Shadow

-''Her speed was startling''

-''A droid would've been hard-pressed to match her acceleration.''

I don't see that Vader is superior to Jinn in terms of speed. Maybe in reflexes, but not in mobility and agility.

@erkan12:

''A droid would've been hard-pressed to match her acceleration.''

A droid would be hard pressed to match it. A droid. Vader isn't a common droid.

I don't see that Vader is superior to Jinn in terms of speed.

He is, tho. Jinn has nothing on par with moving beyond what Ferus Olin(who kept track of Obi-Wan only a few months after RotS) can see like Vader did.

Maybe in reflexes, but not in mobility and agility.

Mobility probably not. But his agility, combat speed, travel speed, and reflexes are superior.

Are we seriously derailing this thread with another lowball-Vader-fest?

This is a good match. Contrary to popular belief, Ben's physical feats, while not as impressive as his younger self, are still very much Force-enhanced and afford him sufficient speed and strength to contend. Nova in his post from a year or two ago brought up a good point about Ben's Soresu holding back Jinn's Ataru and the fact that Obi-Wan knows Qui-Gon's fighting style. Add to that the fact that neither seem to fatigue much more quickly than the other, I would say a duel is very debatable and could potentially lean either way. Power is also an interesting comparison. Both are somewhat underrated in that category, and I could again see an argument being made for either side.

Don't Jedi become more powerful as they age

@wollfmyth: Jinn can still use spinning / duck and jump moves of Ataru in duels, which I don't see Vader is doing the same, so Jinn should be more agile too.

https://youtu.be/HdJnoL4KR8g?t=89

@holocron24:

I'd rate him as an upper Tier 8 duellist along the likes of Ventress and Plo. I think its just the fact that his best duelling feats come from a battle which he lost in the end... so that can sort of blind some people from his true capabilities (especially considering the calibre of his opponent)

I'm not sure if I'd rate him upper tier 8, maybe lower-middle tier. He's not quite at the level of Kenobi or Maul, but he's certainly near it as a duelist. I'd place him at maybe Ventress/Savage level as a duelist. Ever so slightly above the likes of Fisto and Plo.

Do you think we'll ever get any new material from Disney i.e comics and novels that show him during his Prime?

I really hope so, Jinn is cool. Though I doubt it's any priority in Disney's plans.

@erkan12: Vader has some good agility feats:

Not sure about sabers, but Kenobi is probably more powerful, given that he was hyped in the DE endnotes as one of the greatest Jedi in history. Not that it would necessarily make a huge difference, but I think it's worth noting.

@zaluk said:

In terms of tiering, he's actually bang in the middle of my T8 between Ventress and Savage which coincidentally is where you have placed him so yeah I'd probably agree its mid-tier not high.

But in terms of canon I have him as being on par with Fisto or slightly under. And marginally above Plo since Koon has no duelling feats in Disney canon

Here's my T8 BTW... Canon Feats only

@wollfmyth: To add a few more:

This whole argument is both silly and irrelevant. Let's stick to Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.

I remember the DE endnotes giving credit to Obi-Wan, but did it specifically say he was one of the most powerful Jedi or simply one of the greatest? The distinction is important. One is a testament of his ability to summon the Force; the other is a testament to the role he played in galactic events.

@silver2467: Thanks for them.

This whole argument is both silly and irrelevant. Let's stick to Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.

Well considering the most we have to go off of for Kenobi is his showing against Vader, I think debating the credence of Vader's skill and speed(as well as other areas) would matter.

@silver2467: That would be greatest actually. Anyway, here's the whole quote:

And wouldn't greatest mean overall?

@wollfmyth: There are definitely more that can be posted too.

I understand. What I was more referring to was this nonsense of implicitly underrating Ben by explicitly underrating Vader. Vader's acrobatic capability really has no relevance to this whatsoever; his speed and strength do but not his agility or tendency or lack thereof to perform flips and spins. Obviously, between Ben and Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon is the more agile of them based on showings and preferred combat forms. However, even Qui-Gon's use of Ataru was not quite the whirling circus performance that Yoda's is; so why his agility should be thought of as a determining factor is beyond me. This is why I was saying this whole issue of Vader's fluidness of motion is a tangent.

@zapan87 said:

@silver2467: That would be greatest actually. Anyway, here's the whole quote:

And wouldn't greatest mean overall?

Hm, possibly, yes. I guess that could still be an appraisal of their acquired power, but it could be argued.

However, I think a more pertinent issue is this: is there any indication Obi-Wan became less powerful as years passed? We know he weakened bodily as time went by and was not as physically capable as he used to be, but is there any indication his telekinesis or mind tricks were less potent in his later years?

@silver2467: In terms of power? No, indication, as far as I know, and now that you mention it, I actually recall some scan in which Ben claimed to have grown a lot, though that would be a subjective accolade. So far he was only identified as less skilled than his former self. And as for physicals, he actually kept his reflexes good:

It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull.

-- The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi

@wollfmyth: I never said Vader is completely stable, I just said Jinn is more agile, as far as I see though.

@zapan87: Good find. That certainly helps a case for him.

Although what I was referring to when I mentioned his decreasing bodily strength was his stamina more than anything. But your point is well made nonetheless.