PF Emma Frost vs Silver Surfer

@chiq said:

@Sufferthorn said:

@chiq said:

@Sufferthorn: Actually Namor didn't go down to the Avengers, he went down to Wanda. Wanda is like kryptonite for the PF avatars. Thor + Strange + Rulk + cannon fodder avengers really didn't do anything to Namor.

No, you're incorrect.

Namor going down was a team effort, each of them got hits in, and none of them couldve done it alone.

At what point did it look like that Namor would have gone down to the Avengers without Wanda? Are you saying they would have beaten Namor without Wanda in that battle?

He snapped Rulk's arm with effortlessly and he no sold Thor's hammer blow to the back of his neck w/o a problem.

As I've said before the inclusion of the Avengers in that issue was pure page filler, they accomplished nothing and we would have got the exact same results if Namor and Wanda had gone at it from the start.

@Sufferthorn said:

@chiq said:

@Sufferthorn said:

@chiq said:

@Sufferthorn: Actually Namor didn't go down to the Avengers, he went down to Wanda. Wanda is like kryptonite for the PF avatars. Thor + Strange + Rulk + cannon fodder avengers really didn't do anything to Namor.

No, you're incorrect.

Namor going down was a team effort, each of them got hits in, and none of them couldve done it alone.

At what point did it look like that Namor would have gone down to the Avengers without Wanda? Are you saying they would have beaten Namor without Wanda in that battle?

He snapped Rulk's arm with effortlessly and he no sold Thor's hammer blow to the back of his neck w/o a problem.

I'm not saying they could have done it without Wanda, i'm just saying that Wanda couldn't have done it without the Avengers.

It was a team effort, and required ALL of them to defeat PF Namor. My REAL disagreement with you, was that Thor "spanks" Silver Surfer. They stalemate most of the time, their power is comparable.

I never said Thor spanks the Surfer. If you read my other posts. I said they are equals and would even give the Surfer the advantage since he is more versatile then Thor.

Phoenix Force Emma

@Supermanwithatan01: this

@Dextersinister said:

@chiq said:

@Sufferthorn said:

@chiq said:

@Sufferthorn: Actually Namor didn't go down to the Avengers, he went down to Wanda. Wanda is like kryptonite for the PF avatars. Thor + Strange + Rulk + cannon fodder avengers really didn't do anything to Namor.

No, you're incorrect.

Namor going down was a team effort, each of them got hits in, and none of them couldve done it alone.

At what point did it look like that Namor would have gone down to the Avengers without Wanda? Are you saying they would have beaten Namor without Wanda in that battle?

He snapped Rulk's arm with effortlessly and he no sold Thor's hammer blow to the back of his neck w/o a problem.

As I've said before the inclusion of the Avengers in that issue was pure page filler, they accomplished nothing and we would have got the exact same results if Namor and Wanda had gone at it from the start.

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree, and get on with my life.

@Lord_Moldemvort said:

@Veitha: when was emma depowered? i specifically remember it being stated she possessed 1/5 of the force, just like the rest of the five

im not following you. shes a cosmic being, but shes still made of energy. if not, then what is she made of? and you seem to forget emma only possess a fraction of this force. that small bit is not enough to resist being absorbed by a guy like surfer

eh, possibly so, but i wouldnt underestimates thors resistance to TP. he has resisted moondragon before. im pretty sure she only tanked a celestials head, while thor has tanked several blasts from full celestials. but, this doesnt mean they were of planet busting magnitude. if you can show me her diamond form successfully handling planetary attacks, you might have a point. also thor has broken adamantium coyles by simply flexing, so based on your logic he could probably shatter her if he actually wanted to

but what is the magnitude of the attack? if going intangible wont work, surfer can possibly still be durable enough to tank it, and he can also increase his durability if needed. im not sure why TK would be useful against surfer

i disagree. she hasnt shown any feats that suggest shes above a full powered or well fed galactus

when has the phoenix ever destroyed a solar system? can you name a time when that happened? and no, emma isnt a planet buster due to the very simple fact that she has no feats to prove it

i have already explained countless times why surfer can drain this fraction of energy from her. and you still have not explained how emma will hurt surfer while i have already stated ways he can defeat her

Guy, read Avengers vs X-Men 11. Emma has 1/2 of the Phoenix Force.

The Pheonix is a cosmic being made of psionic energy - stated in X-Men Legacy 234 - and Norrin has never shown to be able to absorb psionic energy. AND Phoenix is sentient, it chooses its avatar. If she wants to stay with it'll stay with Emma.

Thor has actually shattered her, because of this I don't see why he hasn't used his full power since it's really difficult to hurt her in her diamond form.

And remember that SS can't kill her, destroying her diamond form or her body won't work.

Emma has beaten all the Avengers and all the X-Men with cosmic pyrokinesis, including Thor, Hulk, Rulk, Strange, that have all beaten SS. The same can be said for Namor, that has beaten ALL the Avengers without effort, and with less Phoenix Force than Emma.

The Phoenix Force is stronger than Galactus. Jean Grey with the full Force has hold the entire universe in her hands(litteraly, I'm looking for the scans), something that Galactus has never done before and never could do.

The Dark Phoenix Saga. Emma has 1/2 of the Phoenix Force, and the entire Force can blow solar sistems, so destroing a planet won't be really hard.

SS can't drain her fraction of energy. I've explained why. Emma can hurt Surfer telepathically, using TK(it lets her manipulate molecules, something that also Surfer is made of), using cosmic pyrokinesis etc. She's a lot of ways to destroy him.

Here we have the scan:

The Phoenix Force is far stronger than Galactus.

@Veitha: no, she has 1/5. she might have received that later on, but all the five got 1/5 of the force and thats who im using at the moment

yes he has. he has absorbed that kind of energy before and based on his feats he can absorb a fraction of the force. being sentinel could cause a problem i suppose, but she doesnt possess enough to resist surfer. hes going to drain her

it honestly didnt look like he was trying very hard. is obvious thor wasnt even close to going all out in that arc because full strength swings with mjolnir have 1 shotted planets and ripped a fabric of reality. he was using about a fraction of his true power like he always does for the sake of plot

yes it will. the only reason she reformed was due to the phoenix force, which i have already explained now surfer can drain from her. either way he can still KO her. killing is not needed

sorry, your going to have to go into more detail than that about this attack. when has hulk or rulk (WITHOUT the damn loebforce) beaten surfer? by defeating the avengers you mean most of them would be weak in comparison to namor and thor and strange were obviously reduced in power due to plot. a full swing from thor would have taken namors head right off his shoulders and he didnt use any of his other abilities either

that was the strongest incarnation of phoenix and she didnt even hold the universe in her hand. she was holding the VISUAL of a universe and only altered one moment in time all within her own realm, and it was still hard for her to do. a nourished galactus has defeated 4-5 celestials, while the phoenix could only destroy one of their hands. even thor has done better than that

wait, when did she destroy solor systems again? and emma only contains 1/5, along with her never even destroying a planet before

YES he can, and I have explained why. TK is useless as surfer has also absorbed that before and it takes focus to execute that kind of attack. surfer has her by light speeds, she wont even see him. you still have not explained what kind of an attack this pyro thing is and how its going to hurt him. im also guessing you added the etc because you dont know what else she has

surfer drains her and/or kills/KOs her with multiple planetary attacks

@MasterM0r0n said:

@Lord_Moldemvort

1. He's fighting a host of The Phoenix Force that contains 1/5 of the power.

2. We're talking about pure blood lust here, so the result that will bend them to kill The Silver Surfer, is very possible.

3. One who can bend reality, in my opinion, is God in comics.

4. The Phoenix Force has beaten a Galactus that has gone all out.

If you think about it, Emma contains 20 % (according to your logic) of The Phoenix Force while...

The Silver Surfer contains 10 % of Galactus.

Hence, The Phoenix Force would win.

5. He can't drain the powers of The Phoenix Force

6. Either way, 20 % of the Phoenix is powerful enough to destroy The Surfer.

Ten percent. Haha.

Try 0.0000001% of Galactus

Phoenix Force > Galactus

Galactus > Silver Surfer

Poenix Force, fraction or otherwise, > Silver Surfer.

Easy. PF Emma takes it.

@VeganDiet: 1. except she has no feats to contend with a nourished galan

2. irrelevant, and a poor display of ABC logic

3. more claims with no proof

based on feats, she loses horribly

@Lord_Moldemvort said:

@VeganDiet: 1. except she has no feats to contend with a nourished galan

2. irrelevant, and a poor display of ABC logic

3. more claims with no proof

based on feats, she loses horribly

How is it a poor display of 'ABC' logic?

They are facts?...

Vouile

@Lord_Moldemvort said:

@VeganDiet: 1. except she has no feats to contend with a nourished galan

2. irrelevant, and a poor display of ABC logic

3. more claims with no proof

based on feats, she loses horribly

Battle thread isn't based on feats alone or else by that logic some high end cosmics who haven't done anything would lose to guys who have thrown a punch. Emma is stronger by merit of what she is and how other powerful characters in universe view her.

@Dextersinister: false because most of those cosmic beings DO have feats and little to no low showings. like tyrant or thanos. feats are a major part

you cant just say phoenix force emma wins because of her hype. you need to provide feats and proof of things within her arsenal

@Vouile: what facts? last time i checked stating claims with no real proof or evidence isnt facts

Phoenix Force > Galactus
Galactus > Silver Surfer
Poenix Force, fraction or otherwise, > Silver Surfer.
Easy. PF Emma takes it.

@Lord_Moldemvort:

Please tell me what's wrong with this?

Pheonix Force is more powerful than Galactus and has already beaten him.

The Silver Surfer is Galactus' herald, and only has 10 % of the Power Cosmic while Galactus has all of it.

Therefore:

Phoenix Force, fraction (1/5) or otherwise, > Silver Surfer.

So again I repeat, please tell me what is wrong with this logic with real proof of why it's wrong.

Vouile

@Vouile: 1. she defeated a starving galactus. she has no feats that put her above a full fed or well nourished galactus

2. basing things off who has more of what is not an accurate way of debating in this fight. if you want to go by that logic, silver surfer with less of the power cosmic than emma has the phoenix force has displayed much more feats that are far more impressive than she has, so im not sure what people are implying when they bring that up

@Lord_Moldemvort said:

@Dextersinister: false because most of those cosmic beings DO have feats and little to no low showings. like tyrant or thanos. feats are a major part

you cant just say phoenix force emma wins because of her hype. you need to provide feats and proof of things within her arsenal

What do you mean most of those cosmic beings I didn't mention anyone but some of the ost powerful cosmics are featless. Alright here's a feat the entire Avengers roster could not beat a single phoenix host even admitting that they had exhausted all prep ideas, they are entirely dependent on Hope and plot device empowered Wanda.

@Dextersinister: like who? name some

hah, i knew you would use that HORRIBLE, horrible excuse for a comic called AvX

can you tell me who namor defeated that was exactly so strong? red hulk? iron man? Thing? meh

the top tier guys like thor were completely holding back and power reduced for the sake of plot, especially thor. the guy has accidentally KOed namor in one hit while in rain, but wait, he has the PHOENIX FORCE, so now he can take a hit from thor in the back of the head. bullshit, if thor swung that as hard as he could namors head would have been knocked right off his shoulders. oh and now your going to tell me wanda was a plot device? how about the whole damn comic was a way to make that pathetic group look good

and im sure iron man could have come up with some device that shut off the force from them

@Lord_Moldemvort: If you won't accept avx comics as feats for Pf emma, what else do we go by? She's been in a couple of comics compared to surfers thousands of issues.

It's not something as stupid as standard Emma owning Surfer or the black panther putting him in an armbar. It's Emma powered by the PF. Thor falling to a pf avatar is not bad writing.

@Lord_Moldemvort: I'm sorry. I'm not interested in debating you. You refuse to listen to logic. You claim that PF has no feats. When people show you feats, you claim that they don't count for some arbitrary reason. Debating with you is quite obviously a futile gesture. 9 pages are enough for me to see that.

@Lord_Moldemvort: Galactus.

I'm not exactly sure why all of you are still debating with Lord_Moldemvort. He is obviously just a SS fanboy without any actual comic intelligence behind his argument. Have you noticed he keeps asking for feats with proof yet hasn't provided one single proof behind his own? I just read this entire thread and his argument is that SS will drain the Phoenix Force from Emma and each of you have debated that illogical argument pointing out why he CAN'T, yet he still says its possible without proving his own conclusion. He then states SS will create a black hole to destroy her and someone even posted the phoenix powers which includes manipulating black holes. He is comparing a 50 year old comic's feats with a what......12 book series so far?? It is only logical to use the bases on other beings who have had the same similar kind of phoenix experience and yet he STILL wants feats for Emma as the phoenix. Obviously there us NO reasoning with his fanboyism. But let me try this tact: Emma is in the top 3 of telepaths on Earth, an omnipath, SS MAY HAVE RESISTANCE TO TELEPATHY, but Emma is used to dealing with other HIGH LEVEL TELEPATHS, so resistance isn't going to be THAT advantages to him. Also lets look at when she possessed Iceman. She used his power in ways that he could never dream of and she was only in control of him for a short time. Having said that she should be able to figure out how to use the phoenix force to a much greater degree than any of the other P5. (Though you'll probably say if she hasn't shown that feat than it doesn't count.)

Here is a fact for you, I just looked up the SS just to make sure my points stand: The Surfer has demonstrated limited telepathic ability on occasion, and has proven able to influence human emotion and sensation.

Nowhere does it state that he has resistance to telepathy, but I will concede the point because unlike you, I understand how this debating thing works. You do realize that Norrin Radd was only an alien from his home world with NO SUPERHUMAN ability AT ALL before he became the Herald of Galactus. That means that his only abilities come from his connection to Galactus and thus the power cosmic. So let us ask you one last time to see if you can get on board with an actual debate:

Phoenix Force > Power Cosmic

Rachel Summers hosting the Phoenix Force > 'hungry' Galactus who wields the power cosmic (only because you won't allow yourself to see that actuality behind PF being greater than PC)

'hungry' Galactus > Silver Surfer who wields a much lesser degree of the power cosmic

Rachel with the Phoenix force > Necrom with a small portion of the phoenix force

small portion of the phoenix force > small portion of the power cosmic

Disprove any of the above statement with something other than horrible writing or PIS or CIS or feats are needed. If your so hung up on feats do you believe that the Silver Surfer with his millions of feats can beat the Living Tribunal who has like 1?? You my friend would be a complete moron if you did. FEATS DO NOT AN ARGUMENT MAKE. They help you back up your logical thinking process of who would win in a battle.

And for whoever posted about the Goblin Force being greater than the Phoenix Force, albeit it is a true statement, you realize it was Scott Summers who 'tricked' the Goblin Force and destroyed him, right?? Does that mean that Cyclops is greater than the Phoenix Force?? No it doesn't.

What happens in comics is that writers (good ones anyways) try to give the extreme powers such as Galactus and the Phoenix some semblance of personality and humanity because they have no idea what an actual entity of such immense power would truly be like. None of us do. So they write them in a way they can relate to as well as the readers. Giving them some form of humanity makes them less than perfect. They make mistakes, they fall to some emotions, they over think things, they feel. That is how we can relate to them so yes, the Phoenix Force has lost to some less powerful beings but its because the humanity the writers put in them. Without it, why would any of those beings ever give a second thought to planet Earth?? Do you REALLY believe we're that intriguing?

@fanofsuperheroes: hah ok pal, allow me to prove you wrong on every single "point" you have made

1. im not a silver surfer fan

2. i have been asking for feats regarding emma because everyone continues to list irrelevant preferences and dwell on false ABC logic

3. i have stated several reasons why surfer can win. i stated he can drain her. YES, he can do that. nobody has said a single reason why he cant. they all have just said hosts that received at least half of it or more have resisted it, yet emma only possess 1/5 of it. i have proved surfer can drain near limitless amounts of energy, psi being one of those forms. can surfer successfully drain the whole force? no. can he successfully drain hosts with the majority of it? probably not. can he absorb a host with no more than a fraction of it? YES. i admitted it being sentinel could cause a problem, but there is not enough of the force within her to resist against a guy like surfer

4. forget about the black holes, but i have stated he can dish out planetary blasts, no one has showed proof she can tank that. i have stated he can amp his strength and durability, go intangible, speedblitz her, transmutation, trap her in his board, has shown nanosecond reactions, can dodge any of her attacks if he wants, and nobody has proved me wrong on this

5. then go ahead and give me some showings of others who have possessed 1/5 of the force if you want to go by that logic. im all ears. also keep in mind hosts with MORE of the force than emma have lost to opponents and things weaker than surfer

6. emma under the influence of some of the force still failed to get in thors head and was shattered effortlessly. you can call this PIS if you want, but for the same or similar reasons thats why i claim most of that arc to be total bullshit

7. surfer is highly resistant to telepathy, he has resisted moondragon before. now im sure emma could get in head, but thats not something hes going to let her do. someone also mentioned TK, which is useless as he has absorbed that before and his speedblitzing would destroy her concentration. the same goes for her TP. surfer has also proved to have TP and TK as well

8. irrelevant. rachel possess more of the phoenix force than emma does. (once again, if you give proof that she is above a well nourished galactus than maybe you can prove yourself different of all the others who have failed to do this)

9. what does necrom have anything to do with this?

10. once AGAIN, more claims with zero proof behind it

11. your just the same as the rest of the emma supporters who have given crappy excuses for "arguments" by listing irrelevant preferences, using false ABC logic, and not listing anything in emmas arsenal or why it would help her. they just think "oh, its the phoenix force so that means she wins automatically" without thinking things through for both characters

so, in conclusion:

can surfer drain the force from emma? check

does he outclass her in a lot categories and has a stronger and more versatile power set? check

has he displayed BETTER feats? check

does surfer defeat emma? check and mate

i rest my case. feel free to think whatever you want

After hearing Lord_Moldemvort mind-numbing arguments, fanofsuperheroes wrapped this thead up nicely.

Emma wins.

i just wanted to add in something i found interesting that contributes more to the point of why emma LOSES

when she fought thor in her diamond form, she still had access to the phoenix force. this is WIS. she cant access psonic energy while in that form and its been proven. another good example of marvels way to humiliate thor and make the phoenix five look good in that dreadful arc

so whether or not surfer can drain the force out of her is irrelevant as he doesnt need to anyway. going in that form would disable her from the force, and if she doesnt she gets 1 shotted and speedblitzed. (hell im willing to say that would have happened to her either way)

i think this thread is wrapped up now. emma loses

get over it PokemonDefender

@Lord_Moldemvort: This will be my last post to you since you so blithely ignore all actual evidence against your thought process.

1. Maybe you are not a Silver Surfer fanboy but you sure act like one.

2. False ABC logic is not being applied here because there have only been 12 issues with a PF Emma Frost and 50 years of SS feats, so we HAVE TO LOGICALLY TAKE INTO ACCOUNT WHAT THE PF ITSELF AND WHAT OTHER USERS HAVE USED IT FOR since there isn't enough of a story for us to draw on. To refute that just makes you stupid. Emma is a much higher caliber of Psion than most others and may have some trouble getting into SS head but will get in there, whether you want to believe it or not.

3. Stating why SS can win is not the same thing as giving feats that apply to this battle. Show us where he has absorbed an actual entity? Whether you choose to believe it or not the PF is an entity, whether or not its made up of psionic energy or not does not change what it is. Can he absorb powers that come from one that hosts the PF, sure, no one is disputing that. He is not absorbing the actual PF whether its 1/5 of it or not. And may I ask why you keep ignoring the fact that Emma's 1/5 of the PF gives her more power than his 1/100 of the PC?? Again, stating something does not a feat make nor prove anything.

4. Whether you want to call it PIS or bad writing, she tanked and owned Thor who is on par with SS so, yes, she can tank SS hits just like she did with Thor's. Someone already pointed out to you that TK does affect those intangible but again you chose to ignore that. Transmutation is something that the PF does and on a much more wide scale so that won't work. Trap her is his board, not exactly sure what your talking about there so I will research it a bit today and debunk it tonight. Nanosecond reactions?? Yes he can travel at FTL easily but that is not the same as reaction speed. Prove to me he can, maybe post a pic. Her ability in telepathy will allow her to read his moves and thoughts and allow her to react much better to him than him to her so you have that backwards.

5. Was already done when the first person mentioned Necrom.

6. I found scans of one fight between Thor and Emma but it's not the one where he shatters her, just where she kicks his butt. So I can't comment on that yet.

7. I have looked everywhere to find where SS is HIGHLY resistant to telepathy and cannot find it anywhere, just that he has limited telepathy and telekinesis so that is going to have to be something you need to show. You bring up Moondragon, let me ask you, did he resist her when she was possessed by the Cosmic Demon Dragon of the Moon, when she had the Mind gem, or when it was just her??

8. Please keep up, I brought up Rachel to dispute the power of the Phoenix Force vs the power of the Power Cosmic in reference to your continuing to believe that the PC is greater. Rachel was an unexperienced host with the PF which in my opinion, yes my opinion, puts her on par with a malnurished Galactus. I was pointing out that Rachel still won so PF greater than PC. I am citing that instance to prove my opinion. How about citing an instance, an unfail one because when he tried to cyphon her power he didn't finish, on the PC being more powerful.

9. You have asked to state instances with someone else using 1/5 of the PF for feats, THAT'S WHERE NECROM comes in. Do you just read what you want?? He wasn't even wielding 1/5 of the PF and could still move planets and eat stars for crying out loud. This was posted several times because you asked for it.

10. I'm not sure what 10 is referring to, if its to my what is greater chart you obviously can't follow logic so no sense in debating that with you.

So in conclusion:

You still haven't proven that SS CAN drain the PF.

Norinn Radd does not outclass Emma Frost in any way shape or order, he is a normal alien species while she is a mutant with extreme abilities. While SS's only power comes from the Power Cosmic and right now Emma Frost is being powered by the PF. Power Cosmic is not greater than Phoenix Force so he does not have more versatility than her.

I will concede the point that in his 50 year span yes, he has displayed better feats than PF Emma in her 12 issues.

Emma wins this, and I never stated it would be an easy battle.

I will think what I want because unlike you, I can actually think logically and understand ALL points of the battles.

@PokemonDefender: Thank you so much, I do try! lol

@fanofsuperheroes: sure, whatever that "evidence" is

1. giving reasons why you think someone wins now equals fanboyism?

2. no, because they have stated nothing exactly relevant prior to emma vs surfer. saying A can defeat B does not mean A can defeat C, especially when A (rachel) possess much more of the force than emma, and defeated B (starving galactus). this is false ABC logic and it is exactly what everyone has been trying to dwell on. i didnt deny she can get in his head, but surfer is far faster and will overwhelm her with attacks to prevent that. hes not going to give her time

3. why does being an entity make a difference about anything? she is made up of psonic energy, something surfer has absorbed before, and i already proved he can drain near limitless amounts of energy. are you saying it wont make a if theres a 1/5 of it or all of it in her? now your just contradicting yourself because your in denial and cant think of real reasons to prove me wrong. surfer will less of the power cosmic has performed better showings, so what are you implying? your basing things off who has more of what rather than what people have done with that amount

4. what do you mean she tanked thor? she was effortlessly shattered in one hit, and based off thors striking power its obvious he was barely using any of his strength to do that. you can write me a book about how bad she might of humiliated thor, but in my opinon, that fight if anything undermined her durability and TP abilities. also thor has used a hell of a lot more power against surfer than he did with emma. can you tell me where i said being intangible is why her her TK is useless? i explained he has absorbed TK before and his speed will disrupt her focus. im going to have to search for the link, but he has shown nanosecond REACTIONS twice. back on the TP again? i told you hes not going to give her time for that, he will attack her or speedblitz and is also resistant. its not very useful in this fight

5. doesnt guarantee anything

6. well for your information he still 1 shotted her diamond form and resisted her TP while she was amped

7. he has resisted moondragon WITH the mind gem. i would say thats a pretty considerable feat to look at

8. so your saying that rachel with the phoenix force is overall above the power cosmic because she defeated a weak galactus? this does not ensure anything. galactus at his nourished levels has defeated 4-5 celestials and ripped one of them apart with his bare hands. can you show me phoenix doing something like this?

9. oh im sorry, is this battle necrom vs surfer? no, its not. if you want to give emma feats she hasnt displayed then be my guest, but either way it STILL does not ensure a victory of any sort. surfer has 1 shotted planets and has drained solar energy to increase his own power with, as well as proving to start up a star with his own power

10. this is for you still not giving any real reasons in emmas arsenal as to why she wins, or points i havent already countered and proved irrelevant

so in conclusion:

i HAVE proved why he could drain her. actually, he doesnt need to as she shouldnt be able to access the force in her diamond form anyway ( it was WIS/PIS against thor )

he doesnt outclass her? lets take a look at the stats

is he faster? check

can he dish out more powerful attacks? check

is he more durable and can resist her TP and TK? check

can he amp his strength and durability, something emma cant do? check

does he have better reactions? check

can he go intangible, something emma cant do? check

can he absorb power and add it to his own, something emma cant do? check

and about a hundred other things in his arsenal that emma cant do

i like how your argument was " surfer is just some alien and emma is a powerful mutant, so that means emma is more versatile!" HAH, failed logic as usual

so who wins? surfer easily. you have proved nothing except that your just another tool in the box that think hes accomplished something when everything hes saying is WRONG, and i have easily proved that

get over it

@Sorceror_Swift said:

@MasterM0r0n said:

@Lord_Moldemvort

1. He's fighting a host of The Phoenix Force that contains 1/5 of the power.

2. We're talking about pure blood lust here, so the result that will bend them to kill The Silver Surfer, is very possible.

3. One who can bend reality, in my opinion, is God in comics.

4. The Phoenix Force has beaten a Galactus that has gone all out.

If you think about it, Emma contains 20 % (according to your logic) of The Phoenix Force while...

The Silver Surfer contains 10 % of Galactus.

Hence, The Phoenix Force would win.

5. He can't drain the powers of The Phoenix Force

6. Either way, 20 % of the Phoenix is powerful enough to destroy The Surfer.

Ten percent. Haha.

Try 0.0000001% of Galactus

Lol' my bad!

@VeganDiet said:

Phoenix Force > Galactus

Galactus > Silver Surfer

Poenix Force, fraction or otherwise, > Silver Surfer.

Easy. PF Emma takes it.

Exactly what I'm trying to say.

p0st by,

Master M0r0n

I fairly agree with Moldemvorts statements. If Silver Surfer plays his cards right, he has a pretty decent shot

Phoenix Emma stomps.

@Lord_Moldemvort: Wow, you really do read only what you want to don't you. <------no question mark cause that was a factual statement, not a question. I will be like all the other smart intelligent debaters here and from here on in, ignore you as well as you are obviously delusional. No one was using the ABC logic you are using. We are not saying that PF Emma can beat SS because Rachel can beat Galactus and why you continue to read it like that just proves your stupidity. We are saying.......nevermind, since you read what you want no point in trying to spell it out for you either AGAIN!

Lord_Moldemvort is for Silver Surfer

Everyone else is for Emma!

@fanofsuperheroes: I was actually reading a few of his posts, and I don't see whats so illogical about his argument, or at least for the most part. I'm not saying Surfer wins for sure, but its not out of the question at all for him to win here. He IS capable of resisting her TP/TK, and he has the offense capable of putting her down

@Protin: I agree, he can win. I think one of the best arguments for him is the fact that he has had the Power Cosmic much longer than Emma has had the Phoenix Force so he probably knows what he can do a lot better than Emma does. My major point is He asked specifically for someone else that had only a portion of the PF to make comparisons to, which someone provided, then he ignored that information. I reposted it because he asked for it again and then ignored that part saying it was irrelevant. The fact that he wants feats to compare from a 50 year comic and a 12 issue comic is ridiculous. That's my beef. He does have good points on how SS could possibly win but hasn't posted one scan to back up these points except the one with Moondragon, which if he posted the whole thought behind it it seems through his scan that she WAS manipulating him and he just FINALLY got tired of it and FINALLY broke free. So I believe they each have capabilities of winning here. I just believe the PF is greater than the PC.

Silver Surfer has this.

@fanofsuperheroes: He does have experience on his side, this would be a factor in his favor. I recall Necrom being mentioned a lot to support Emma, however I don't see why this guarantees a victory for her. What did he do again that was so special?

To be fair, I dont believe I saw people posting any scans or giving info in Emma's arsenal that guarantees a win for her either. TP was mentioned, but he has resisted Moondragon with the Mind Gem. You were saying he might have already been under her influence before, but tapping into the power of the gem would give her stronger telepathy than Emma, and he broke free nonetheless. A speedblitz would also possibly prevent that

TK was also stated, but that won't do a lot either considering hes actually absorbed that before, and I'm not sure how that would even effect him either way. Again, a speedblitz would prevent that option

And I'm not sure what she has other than that. Any physical attacks won't do much as he can go intangible or dodge any of her hits if he wanted to. But then again I'm no Emma Frost expert, so if you could list any other abilities in her arsenal she has then I could make a more accurate analysis

The point being, Surfer possibly has an answer for anything Emma can throw at him, while the same can't really be said for her

@Protin: And this is where it gets tricky. Without a lot of issues to grab feats from we are all looking at the power of the PF itself. We mentioned Necrom because he fought a full PF Rachel with only a fraction of the PF and during that fight he was throwing around planets and destroying stars, that's why we brought him up so that people knew what could be accomplished with the PF, even a fraction of it. If you read the descriptions of each Force, the PF does all the things the PC does but on a grander scale. So basically anything that the SS can do, so can Emma. The powers are so closely alike it can get confusing. We're trying to say that Emma has 1/5 of the PF while SS has a much smaller portion of the PC, so in most cases that would mean her PF trumps his PC. The PF is the nexus of all psionic energy and power so that heighten Emma's TP and TK to an extreme case which is why I believe she will be able to use those methods in this fight. And if we break it down to her PF can handle his PC, that leaves Emma against Norrin Radd, which as I said he is not a superhuman and she is.

I don't know, he has more experience wielding that much power and he does have the speed blitz advantage!

@fanofsuperheroes: So he was moving planets? Not sure why that would help much, Surfer destroyed a planet just to prove a point. Destroyed a star? I dont believe that would guarantee much either, as he fights guys that can rip through those like Drax on a daily basis

I'm not sure where your coming from here. Descriptions? What about actual feats? Can you even name times where her hosts with this much of the force have done what Surfer has accomplished? I don't recall that. Even with her TP amped by the force, she still failed to get in Thor's head. Silver Surfer is arguably even more resistant than that, and I already explained how he can break that with a speedblitz. Again, her TK will just be absorbed and/or she will get blitzed. It's really not as useful here as you think

You have still not really explained at all how exactly Emma will handle Surfers blasts and other abilities. What durability feats does she have? Also keep in mind if she decides to go in her diamond form, she will NOT be able to access the force. This has already been proven when she used it to block out the Void. Her still having access to it against Thor proves the writers obviously didn't do their research

@fanofsuperheroes: hah, i love how you resorted to insulting me and denying the idiocy of everyone else because you have absolutely no answers whatsoever for my logical conclusions regarding ACTUAL feats and abilities. so you were saying? emma wins because...? nevermind? oh what a shame, i was curious to see your reasoning, oh wait thats right you dont have any

and now you resort to this? more people that have provided nothing but stupidity and false ABC logic are in emmas favor, while the one guy thats actually listing feats and abilities and stating why he can win is in surfers favor, so emma wins? QUALITY over quantity

surfer wins, and if he uses his abilities he does it with great ease. unless you have some real logic, get over it and move on. you and the rest of the emma lovers have already lost

I say Silver Surfers got this

@Lord_Moldemvort: Surfer loses because he is weaker, he is far weaker, this has been established by those who are not bias countless times in this thread.

surfer wins

Moldemvort carried the show.

@Dextersinister: Actually I have been looking through just about all the comments, and I didn't see anybody establishing any good reasons why she wins. Those guys Moldemvort and Protin have been summing it up quite well, and based on what they have said, I'm going with Silver Surfer. Their giving way better logic than the majority of people who are saying Emma wins

Bump

Is the Phoenix Force really above the Power Cosmic? WTF why?

I don't think Phoenix could take Old King Thor with Necrosword, just like Galactus couldn't.

Would Phoenix take Galactus really?

Emma

Surfer

MISMATCH!

Phoenix Force-influence-Emma Frost would DEMOLISH Silver Surfer with ease!

Phoenix Force is already a huge weakness to Galactus, whose powers were leagues below the sentient entity! Silver Surfer is powerful, and will do a lot of heavy damage to Emma Frost. However, the Phoenix Force will quickly heal her, and enhance her with incredible telepathic & telekinetic abilities that would psionically cripple him!