CW Arrow Oliver
AoS May
no gear or weapons
UFC arena
win by KO or death
@thesuperor: Why?
@stormdriven: I think he is superior in every way. He has taken down better fighters than her. I would put Melida under Nyssa's level, and Oliver has won every fight against her. He held of agains Ben and China White at the same time, they are both at or over Melinda's level.
@thesuperor: Whose Ben? also i'd put May over china white.
@americanspeeddemon: Ben Turner/Bronze Tiger
lol...May stomps. You guys wank arrow so hard.
Its easy to look impressive against fodder who surround you, and then take turns attacking you with punches that takes 3 seconds to throw. There are fodder characters on AoS that can stomp Arrow mains.
May puts him over her knee then sends him home to Slade for being bad.
@paytience: Bias much?
I think he is superior in every way.
Hm.
He has taken down better fighters than her.
Like who? What makes these fighters better than her?
I would put Melida under Nyssa's level
Based on what?
and Oliver has won every fight against her.
Why does that speak for what May can do?
He held of agains Ben and China White at the same time, they are both at or over Melinda's level.
Based on what?
@paytience: stop lowballing arrow. Also Ollie fought mirakuru Slade with only 2 years of experience.
@paytience: name superhumans may has defeated?
@allstarsuperman: Im not. Ollie got stomped by slade and grundy. He beat slade by depowering him, and blew grundy up with something. May beat Francis Noche hand to hand, and cleared out a building of trained agents and mind controlled fodder, then took on two inhumans with a knife, was shot in the leg, and WON.
May has performed far better against superhuman competition, and she fights ffffaaarrrr better fodder then ollie does. Hell, Melinda fodderizes people who fodderize better fodder the ollie. Say that ten times and bet on it.
On top of that, she has beaten a centipede soldier, a couple of more inhumans. She fought Bobbi to a stand still; bobby has fought ward and agent 33 after being tortured. She literally breaks her bindings, yanks the scalpels out from under her nails and stabs ward with them, then goes in. Bobbi also fought a kree heads up...May was arguably beating her.
Name one superhuman Ollie beat in a straight up fight. No plot device or prep. I'll wait.
May wins.
@paytience: who is francis noche? Dont remember him as a superhuman.
Ollie has tons of times beaten trained ninjas and assassins and trained military men through the entire show.
Bobbi barely kept up with the kree and may stalemating her doesnt prove anything.
Ollie was beating the regular mirakuru fodder.
You are clearly a bit biased which is cool but dont forget mays showings of almost getting beat by agent 33 and getting beat by skye as well.
@nerdchore: Getting beat by Skye using her abilities isn't a low showing...Skye with powers and a pistol could solo the entire Arrow roster. Make a thread about it.
And May has fought 33 several times, it's only been competitive once.
Bobbi barely kept up with the Kree? That same Kree was going heads up with Sif...aka, one of the greatest warriors in Asgard. Sif trumps every Mirakuru user by so much it isn't even funny.
To compare, Ollie got stomped by a Mirakuru user...the Krees feat against Sif put him firmly in the Asgardian tier...Bobbi was able to go toe to toe with someone in the same tier as Sif.
Ollie was stomped by a Mirakuru. Stalemating Bobbi is better then anything Ollie has done.
I'm still waiting for you to name one superhuman Ollie has beat straight up. No plot device...no prep.
@paytience: who is francis noche? Dont remember him as a superhuman.
Ollie has tons of times beaten trained ninjas and assassins and trained military men through the entire show.
Bobbi barely kept up with the kree and may stalemating her doesnt prove anything.
Ollie was beating the regular mirakuru fodder.
You are clearly a bit biased which is cool but dont forget mays showings of almost getting beat by agent 33 and getting beat by skye as well.
For the bold, he had the cure with him. The one nameless Mirakuru thug he faced without it nearly killed him.
For the italicized, how is almost (even though it wasn't really in doubt) losing to Agent 33 bad? Agent 33's only feats are against May and Bobbi, as well as stomping Skye, so I'm not sure how that's bad. And Skye only beat May with her powers.
Gotta agree with Paytience here 9:08 and 10:50 in the video Darkcloud posted the first guy is Francis Noche he took steroids that increased his strength while reducing his intellect but he is in fact superhuman if you watch the episode the 2nd Eva Belyakov an inhuman who clearly has super strength I.E. has been shown to bust up a car that tried hitting her flip a table 20+ ft easily and smack may around the room, May beat her after getting shot in the leg.
That aside the majority of Oliver's "H2H" feats against anyone impressive are with a bow I don't think May is stomping but pure H2H she'll win a few and Ollie will have to work for his wins.
@drakkis: considering he has beaten nyssa, china white, bronxe tiger, ra's and slade without mirakuru. I wouldn't say that's unimpressive.Hhe also beat barry when he was mind controlled.
you guys feel like assisting me lol
@stormdriven: He has taken out Malcolm Merlyn, Slade Wilson, Nyssa, Al-Owal, Maseo and Ra's al ghul. He has taken out metahumans, including Flash. His feats agains fodder are better than hers. May is stated to be one of the best h2h combatants in Shield while Oliver is probably one of the best if not the best in the world. I don't see anything that May has done to put her above Oliver.
He has taken out Malcolm Merlyn, Slade Wilson, Nyssa, Al-Owal, Maseo and Ra's al ghul.
Great. What makes them more skilled than May, like you claim?
He has taken out metahumans
So has May.
His feats agains fodder are better than hers.
He really only has one that's better. May has matched the majority of his.
May is stated to be one of the best h2h combatants in Shield while Oliver is probably one of the best if not the best in the world.
This statement has no relevance here.
I don't see anything that May has done to put her above Oliver.
Never claimed she was. I just don't understand why so many people see this as such a stomp in favor of Oliver.
@thesuperor: Once again, Ollie has never fought ANY of them without prep or while the were still powered and won. In straight hand to hand he got absolutely owned.
So I say again...show me Ollie beating a metahuman in straight hand to hand or using only hand weapons. Not plot device explosions or prep work; not a Mirakuru user that he hit with a cure. Because right now May has a winning record against superhumans in exactly those types of situations and Ollie as far as I can tell does not.
We're talking hand to hand here right? At the most, weapons of oppurtunity. Every person you named is only considered impressive because where they stand i comparison to the Ollie wank...but right now, NOBODY HAS PRESENTED ANY FEAT THAT MATCHES MAY'S.
May has beaten everysingle superhuman she has come across, with the exception of Lorelei, an asgardian who went toe to with sif, whereas Ollie was almost killed by everyone of them until he found some way to circumvent their powers.
He also has been fighting people with roughly the same power sets.
Enhaced strentgh, etc whereass may has fought enhanced humans, teleporters (tobias ford), multiformers, gravity manipulators, etc and come out ahead...not only is she more skilled at handling physically enhanced opponents, but her engagements with multiple powersets shows a higher degree of resourcefulness.
Every person you listed is only considered elite because of where they stand, in relation to the Arrow wank that happens here. Which only highlights how hard that wank happens, because nobody has presented a single h2h feat of ollie vs superhumans in this thread, and we have a whole season worth of May stomping them.
@nerdchore: I'm sorry I'm confused by my definition of H2H that means with no bow Ollie has never fought China, Nyssa, Definitely Ra's or anyone with his Bare Hands, which is what I'm saying if it comes down to Pure Hands Oliver's feats are lacking in which case I'd give a few rounds to May because the superhumans she Has definitively beaten were without weapons with the exception of Eva Belyakov who she stabbed.
@stormdriven: Well, if we are not going to go by the feats of people they have beat, but rather their skills. Oliver has caught arrows, dodged bullets so IMO he has better reactions than May. He is obvioulsy stronger, he seems way faster looking at his fights. He has also displayed gereat acrobatics and stealth. IMO his fighting skills are also better than hers, he can also take a lot of damage. So I don't see May taking down Ollie. Thats just my opinion.
@thesuperor: So you ignored my question? I wanted to know what makes the people you brought up so much better than May, and why it justifies Oliver beating her. I also want to know why you place her below all those fighters you named.
Since I don't recall any reaction feats for May right now nor am I on a computer to refresh my memory, I'll concede reactions. Strength as well. But according to everyone who debates for Arrow, you can't look at choreography to determine combat speed (which I personally don't agree with), so there's that. And again, you haven't given me a reason as to what makes you think Oliver is more skilled than May is. That's great he can take a lot of damage, May can too.
@stormdriven: Slade took down elite soldiers easy, he also took down Billy who was an extreme skilled fighter. Malcolm Merlyn has feats of taking down some armed guards, toying with Laurel, he was Ra's al ghuls right hand man and a high ranking member of LOA. Oliver took down Captain Boomerang with ease. And Boomerang slaughtered multiple Argus agents with ease. Al-Owal was a high ranking LOA member, he took down Sara in h2h combat. Ra's lacks h2h feats, but he fights with his hands on his back just to prove how superior he is, his only real fight is toying with Thea. Im sure all these characters have many more feats, just can't think of any now.
@stormdriven: He has taken out Malcolm Merlyn, Slade Wilson, Nyssa, Al-Owal, Maseo and Ra's al ghul. He has taken out metahumans, including Flash. His feats agains fodder are better than hers. May is stated to be one of the best h2h combatants in Shield while Oliver is probably one of the best if not the best in the world. I don't see anything that May has done to put her above Oliver.
To be fair, Arrow had help with Flash, so he didn't take him out personally.
@dark_cloud_: That is true, but i find the fact that he kept up with him in h2h impressive. (Flash might not have been going all out, but still)
@thesuperor: Ollie didn't keep up with Flash at all. Ollie only got a couple shots in when Barry wasn't paying attention or was slowing because of exhaustion (the part where Ollie caught Barry's normal speed fist). He was going all out, but played around too much, goading Ollie. Ollie got lucky. Then the crew showed up to take him out with that laser light show.
@dark_cloud_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFwM5n3jC_Q watch from 2.40-2.60 Oliver is moving at incredible speed. I would classify that as keeping up with Barry.
@thesuperor: That's... not keeping up with Barry. Keeping up with Barry, in hand-to-hand as you said, would involve blocking, evading, countering, etc., at the same speed of Barry's attacks. However, in that very video, Barry was moving way too fast for Ollie to land a hit. So no, Ollie was not keeping up with Barry.
@dark_cloud_: Well Barry didn't land a single hit, but Oliver did. I understand what you are saying, but I still think it is imressive what Oliver displayed in that fight.
@thesuperor: Are you a master combatant now? You can judge who is technically superior? Your arguments are perceived stats, and what you think looks skilled.
@paytience: Oliver has displayed moves May hasn't matched. I am by no means a master combatant, or know very much about martial arts, but Oliver seems to have a wider skill register.
@thesuperor: He doesn't. The effectiveness of a fighter isn't determined by what "moves" are on display or seem to be most difficult. A fighters decision making process, and the application of a said technique determines their effectiveness...a double spinning heel quick is a technically difficult move...but this is fighting, not acrobatics. That technique is useless in a fight. If it lands, it isn't a testament of your skill, it's indicative of a stupid opponent.
Oliver can pull off maneuvers Melinda can't maybe, but if those maneuvers FAIL HIM whereas Melinda's techniques helped her to win against similar opposition, then how do those maneuvers make him more skillful?
It doesn't matter how skilled he LOOKS, he consistently fails where in similar circumstances, Melinda succeeds. The greatest testament to a fighter's skills is their success in using them, not how impressive they look losing.
@paytience: My question to you, why do you think May takes this fight then? what makes her a so much better fighter than Oliver?
@thesuperor: To break it down...1 she has already displayed the ability to overcome where Oliver has failed. That alone puts her above oliver. But if you wanna compare video, we can do that.
Tell you what. It'll take a while so we can split the load. You find some Arrow videos and I'll get some AoS videos and we can compare and contrast via pm. Tomorrow we can have everything all broken down and post it in here in the evening. It 1:30 here right kow so Ima sleep for a while.
But for now I'll say that Melinda has a more efficient style, and is far more fundamentally sound. More realistic combat training, and a more tactically proven combat form and decision making process have coupled with an almost unmatched amount of experience against higher tier opponents, such as inhumans, to help her hone her martial instincts to a level Oliver has yet achieved.
Her superiority is borne out in her ability to beat superhuman foes in hand to hand combat or using weapons of oppurtunity...a feat Oliver has never matched.
Slade took down elite soldiers easy, he also took down Billy who was an extreme skilled fighter.
No he hasn't. And Billy is featless oustide of fighting Slade. So it doesn't make sense to justify Slade being skilled by noting Billy Wintergreen, when his only other feat is fighting another featless character.
Malcolm Merlyn has feats of taking down some armed guards
As has May
toying with Laurel
Laurel isn't impressive, in spite of whatever feats against fodder LoA ninjas she has.
he was Ra's al ghuls right hand man and a high ranking member of LOA.
Titles are meaningless.
Oliver took down Captain Boomerang with ease. And Boomerang slaughtered multiple Argus agents with ease.
Much better.
Al-Owal was a high ranking LOA member, he took down Sara in h2h combat.
Why is that impressive?
Ra's lacks h2h feats, but he fights with his hands on his back just to prove how superior he is, his only real fight is toying with Thea.
Why is that impressive?
@stormdriven: Slade did take down multiple soldiers in the island flashbacks even if he took down most of the with a blade. Billy also had other fights than the one against Slade
@thesuperor: Melinda took out multiple mercenaries, mind controlled fodder, and two superhumans with a blade. And she did it without amped stats.
Melinda>Slade killing soldiers with a knife feats.
@paytience: I can agree on that one
@paytience: how does that put her above him?
I mean yeah, they're both skilled and they've both taken on metas and done well but the one thing I hate when debating with these kind of characters is that skill level is dependant on visuals.
No. Ollie didn't beat slade fully in hand to hand but we have to remember that even Roy when he started out with mirakuru managed to punch through a container that was meant to withstand a bomb. Cyrus gold was tanking shotgun bullets and pulled a device out of the ground like he was picking up a football.
Now I'm not saying that these definitely trump all the supersoldiers may has defeated but it was just to show how powerful mirakuru soldiers were. They were at least s durable as concrete.
Personally I think Ollie is a slight bit stronger than May however they are close in the gap of skill. Ollie also has shown (I think) to know a good degree of pressure points and he is very useful in his martial arts taking down merlyn, al owal, ras al ghul etc. not to mention his showings against the flash (which I consider a serious case of plot or lack of experience).
So yeah....I think Ollie wins
@stormdriven: Slade did take down multiple soldiers in the island flashbacks even if he took down most of the with a blade. Billy also had other fights than the one against Slade
Yeah, but what made them elite? They were just a bunch of mercenaries, nothing to suggest they were elite. If they had been stated as some sort of special commandos, sure. And I know Billy had other fights, but they were against another featless character, which means nothing.
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