Nobu and Wilson Fisk vs Malcolm Merlyn and Brick

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nfactor1995

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All combatants are unarmed (wearing their standard outfits though) and the fights are to the death or KO. Battle takes place in an abandoned warehouse and they start 10 yards apart.

Which duo wins and why?

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jayskee

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Team 1

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nickzambuto

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An Arrow vs Daredevil thread that's actually fair.

Although most people will probably say that Nobu solos and Merlyn would die to five Hand ninja.

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An Arrow vs Daredevil thread that's actually fair.

Although most people will probably say that Nobu solos and Merlyn would die to five Hand ninja.

:D

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nerdchore

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Im going to back team 1 for slight majority.

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IndomitableRegal

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#6  Edited By IndomitableRegal

Team 1 for the slight majority. I see Merlyn as the best here, but Brick as the worst. I think that more often than not, Brick will go down before Merlyn can finish off Nobu. Then it's 2-on-1.

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#8  Edited By nickzambuto

@indomitableregal: Well what makes Fisk stronger than Brick in your mind? He has the size advantage, but Brick is nearly a metahuman.

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Arcus1

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How exactly is Brick the worst here?

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Are people forgetting that he gave Ollie a very solid fight?

Nobu vs Merlyn could go either way, but Brick takes Kingpin, so team 2 wins

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TheSuperor

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Merlyn v Nobu is a close fight, but Brick beats Fisk so team 2 wins

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Pokeysteve

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Fisk is a weak link and is very overrated. Team 2 handily for me.

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#12  Edited By wrucebayne

Nobu solos while Fisk fixes his cuff links. Owlsey solos, Foggy solos, Karen Page murders them both, and don't get me started on my man, Melvin Potter.

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nfactor1995

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@Pokeysteve: People don't think Fisk can beat anyone it seems. How could he possibly be overrated?

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@Pokeysteve: People are just impressed by him (Don't see why), I never seen people overrated him on this website.

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nfactor1995

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@nickzambuto: Throwing Daredevil around like a sack of potatoes and easily lifting him over his head strikes me as superior to any of Brick's strength feats.

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nickzambuto

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@nfactor1995: So how strong is Daredevil? Olympic level? Certainly not peak human. Certainly he couldn't snap apart thick iron chains binding his arms through sheer brute strength like a certain Oliver Queen could. I'd give Fisk himself the benefit of the doubt over Queen as far as strength goes, but Matt certainly isn't close.

And if you watch that clip above that Arcus posted, after getting shot through the arm with an arrow, Brick basically just shrugged it off, and decided to use his impaled arm as a weapon by hammer fisting Green Arrow from above, who barely caught the strike using both arms, and the two got into a struggle where Oliver basically used his entire body to just barely hold off Brick's one single arm from pushing down and impaling his face.

That's why I said Brick is nearly a metahuman. A strength difference of that magnitude, compared to this universe's quintessential peak human, means he can't possibly be a peak human himself.

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@nickzambuto: When did Oliver snap thick chains with his bare hands? Could you post a GIF or video?

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FatherChaos

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Hawkman couldn't break out of heavy chains either, and he's certainly on Oliver's level physically...

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TheSuperor

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Actually Brick is pretty even with Kingpin, if not Brick being a bit better. While Merlyn is the weaklink against Fisk or Nobu. So Team 1 wins imo with the assumption that Kingpin is arrow-proof.

What?

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TheSuperor

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@llehdevil: I don't see how Merlyn is a weak link. Merlyn is probably the one with the best pure striking feats here. Breaking Oliver's bow and bending metal, as well as overpowering Oliver. Malcolm should have comparable strength to Fisk at least.

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Malcolm is also probably the most skilled here, him or Nobu. I don't think anyone will argue that Merlyn has great fighting skill. He is also way faster than anyone on the Netflix. As shown in the video above he can catch arrows point blank and casually dodges them.

You also talk as if Malcolm is the weak link whereas Brick would not be a weak link, take a look at Merlyn vs Brick.

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I really don't know why you would consider Merlyn the weak link here.

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IndomitableRegal

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@indomitableregal: Well what makes Fisk stronger than Brick in your mind? He has the size advantage, but Brick is nearly a metahuman.

Brick is nearly a meta in durability, but his striking power didn't impress me as much as Fisk. Maybe that's just because Fisk is much more brutal when he loses his temper, but Fisk definitely seems physically stronger (and his durability might not be quite as high as Brick, but it's pretty high as well; he tanked numerous blows from Daredevil and Punisher without slowing down). He literally threw Matt around and even lifted him above his head (both better than any strength feats Brick has). Considering some of the moves Brick used against Ollie, I'd say it's safe to say he's the better fighter, but we know he can get put down by physical blows, and unlike Matt, he doesn't have his agility or a radar sense to help evade Kingpin (note that even Matt could only evade Fisk for so long). That's basically why I have Fisk>Brick

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depinhom

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Hmm . . . Team 1.

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RBT

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Team 1 is basically Team 2-lite.

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IndomitableRegal

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@llehdevil: I know. I said that: "Considering some of the moves Brick used against Ollie, I'd say it's safe to say he's the better fighter...". If I was unclear, I was saying that Brick is more skilled.

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deactivated-6241fa3a1cff5

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@indomitableregal: But I mean Brick's skill should overcome KP's brute force. I mean, what is KP going to do, punch Brick all day?

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@normanbates: @nfactor1995:

It was mostly right after the first season of Daredevil. I just remember seeing people arguing that he beats people way above him.

Even in this thread you have people saying Brick is the weakest when I think I remember him tanking bullets and almost beating Ollie to death.

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IndomitableRegal

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@llehdevil: Brick is not that skilled. He showed two impressive moves, the hip toss (which is actually pretty basic) and the leg takedown (can't discredit that). That said, his skill is nowhere near the level of Daredevil's and he seriously struggled with Fisk, not to mention that he used his batons to finally KO him. And yes, Kingpin is going to punch him all day lol. Like I said, Brick can be put down with physical blows and Fisk is a pretty heavy hitter.

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#31  Edited By Arcus1

@llehdevil: I don't see how Merlyn is a weak link. Merlyn is probably the one with the best pure striking feats here. Breaking Oliver's bow and bending metal, as well as overpowering Oliver. Malcolm should have comparable strength to Fisk at least.

Loading Video...

Malcolm is also probably the most skilled here, him or Nobu. I don't think anyone will argue that Merlyn has great fighting skill. He is also way faster than anyone on the Netflix. As shown in the video above he can catch arrows point blank and casually dodges them.

You also talk as if Malcolm is the weak link whereas Brick would not be a weak link, take a look at Merlyn vs Brick.

Loading Video...

I really don't know why you would consider Merlyn the weak link here.

To be fair, with Merlyn and Brick:

  1. Brick at that point had already been in a fight with Wildcat (hence the bloodied face, and considering this guy tanks bullets the fact that his face is bloodied shows that Wildcat did some damage), so he was already hurt
  2. In S4 Brick put up a better fight against Ollie than Merlyn did, would seem to indicate that Brick>=Merlyn
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I'll take team 1 with Nobu as the MVP.

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@arcus1: Yes, I agree, Brick was badly beaten and therefore Merlyn had an easier job. But to compare the fights with Melryn v Oliver and Brick v Oliver is kinda difficult. Oliver was in a completely different mindset when fighting Merlyn than when he was fighting Brick. And the Oliver v Merlyn fight was also a sword fight whereas Oliver and Brick fought unarmed. After the sword training Oliver received from Ra's it makes sense that Merlyn didn't stand a chance in a swordfight, maybe Merlyn would have been better of fighting h2h. And Merlyn's unarmed feats trump Brick's by a good margin, we can't use just one fight to compare who's the better fighter.

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#35  Edited By Arcus1

@arcus1: Yes, I agree, Brick was badly beaten and therefore Merlyn had an easier job. But to compare the fights with Melryn v Oliver and Brick v Oliver is kinda difficult. Oliver was in a completely different mindset when fighting Merlyn than when he was fighting Brick. And the Oliver v Merlyn fight was also a sword fight whereas Oliver and Brick fought unarmed. After the sword training Oliver received from Ra's it makes sense that Merlyn didn't stand a chance in a swordfight, maybe Merlyn would have been better of fighting h2h. And Merlyn's unarmed feats trump Brick's by a good margin, we can't use just one fight to compare who's the better fighter.

Well Merlyn has way more h2h feats than Brick, but honestly giving S4 Ollie such a good fight, twice, is as good if not better than anything Merlyn's done

Half the time in the swordfight, Ollie just punched Merlyn (as sword fights go, it kinda sucked in terms of choreography, imo. Maybe I shouldn't hold that against Merlyn, but I do)

They haven't fought a lot of the same people, but Ollie is an opponent they have in common, so it makes sense to use those fights

@llehdevil: Brick is not that skilled. He showed two impressive moves, the hip toss (which is actually pretty basic) and the leg takedown (can't discredit that). That said, his skill is nowhere near the level of Daredevil's and he seriously struggled with Fisk, not to mention that he used his batons to finally KO him. And yes, Kingpin is going to punch him all day lol. Like I said, Brick can be put down with physical blows and Fisk is a pretty heavy hitter.

That applies just as much in reverse

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#36  Edited By TheSuperor

@arcus1: It's kinda difficult to compare when they just have one common enemy. Thea and Oliver have never fought each other in a real combat situation when not holding back (apart from when Thea was on the yellow drug, but Oliver still held back) So if we are comparing how they did against Anarky than Thea>>Oliver.

And yes, the choreography in the Merlyn v Oliver fight was bad, real bad.

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Arcus1

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@arcus1: It's kinda difficult to compare when they just have one common enemy. Thea and Oliver have never fought each other in a real combat situation when not holding back (apart from when Thea was on the yellow drug, but Oliver still held back) So if we are comparing how they did against Anarky Thea>>Oliver.

And yes, the choreography in the Merlyn v Oliver fight was bad, real bad.

Thea and Ollie have both fought Malcolm, Slade (kinda), Ghosts, there's the training session where Ollie ended up taking all of them down. There's plenty to indicate that Ollie is better than Thea. Plus, Thea's victory over Anarky was while she was pit bloodlusted (and the one after he killed her boyfriend, which is inconsistent, imo, with the fact that he just beat her and was shown taking the advantage over her in their later fight)

I agree it's not the best way to compare them, but I think it's enough to say Brick's on the same level as Merlyn, albeit for different reasons

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@arcus1 said:
@thesuperor said:

@arcus1: It's kinda difficult to compare when they just have one common enemy. Thea and Oliver have never fought each other in a real combat situation when not holding back (apart from when Thea was on the yellow drug, but Oliver still held back) So if we are comparing how they did against Anarky Thea>>Oliver.

And yes, the choreography in the Merlyn v Oliver fight was bad, real bad.

Thea and Ollie have both fought Malcolm, Slade (kinda), Ghosts, there's the training session where Ollie ended up taking all of them down. There's plenty to indicate that Ollie is better than Thea. Plus, Thea's victory over Anarky was while she was pit bloodlusted (and the one after he killed her boyfriend, which is inconsistent, imo, with the fact that he just beat her and was shown taking the advantage over her in their later fight)

I agree it's not the best way to compare them, but I think it's enough to say Brick's on the same level as Merlyn, albeit for different reasons

I agree, but I would never say Merlyn is the weak link in this fight, especially with Fisk on the opposing team who is the clear weak link to me.

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@arcus1 said:
@thesuperor said:

@arcus1: It's kinda difficult to compare when they just have one common enemy. Thea and Oliver have never fought each other in a real combat situation when not holding back (apart from when Thea was on the yellow drug, but Oliver still held back) So if we are comparing how they did against Anarky Thea>>Oliver.

And yes, the choreography in the Merlyn v Oliver fight was bad, real bad.

Thea and Ollie have both fought Malcolm, Slade (kinda), Ghosts, there's the training session where Ollie ended up taking all of them down. There's plenty to indicate that Ollie is better than Thea. Plus, Thea's victory over Anarky was while she was pit bloodlusted (and the one after he killed her boyfriend, which is inconsistent, imo, with the fact that he just beat her and was shown taking the advantage over her in their later fight)

I agree it's not the best way to compare them, but I think it's enough to say Brick's on the same level as Merlyn, albeit for different reasons

I agree, but I would never say Merlyn is the weak link in this fight, especially with Fisk on the opposing team who is the clear weak link to me.

Fair enough

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@arcus1 said:
@indomitableregal said:

Brick is not that skilled. He showed two impressive moves, the hip toss (which is actually pretty basic) and the leg takedown (can't discredit that). That said, his skill is nowhere near the level of Daredevil's and he seriously struggled with Fisk, not to mention that he used his batons to finally KO him. And yes, Kingpin is going to punch him all day lol. Like I said, Brick can be put down with physical blows and Fisk is a pretty heavy hitter.

That applies just as much in reverse

Maybe, but Fisk has better strength feats than Brick, and Matt used his batons to KO him.

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@arcus1 said:
@indomitableregal said:

Brick is not that skilled. He showed two impressive moves, the hip toss (which is actually pretty basic) and the leg takedown (can't discredit that). That said, his skill is nowhere near the level of Daredevil's and he seriously struggled with Fisk, not to mention that he used his batons to finally KO him. And yes, Kingpin is going to punch him all day lol. Like I said, Brick can be put down with physical blows and Fisk is a pretty heavy hitter.

That applies just as much in reverse

Maybe, but Fisk has better strength feats than Brick, and Matt used his batons to KO him.

Idk if Fisk has outright better strength feats, need to review Brick's. However, when it comes to durability, Brick's bulletproof, which speaks to what it takes to put him down

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#42  Edited By IndomitableRegal
@arcus1 said:
@indomitableregal said:
@arcus1 said:
@indomitableregal said:

Brick is not that skilled. He showed two impressive moves, the hip toss (which is actually pretty basic) and the leg takedown (can't discredit that). That said, his skill is nowhere near the level of Daredevil's and he seriously struggled with Fisk, not to mention that he used his batons to finally KO him. And yes, Kingpin is going to punch him all day lol. Like I said, Brick can be put down with physical blows and Fisk is a pretty heavy hitter.

That applies just as much in reverse

Maybe, but Fisk has better strength feats than Brick, and Matt used his batons to KO him.

Idk if Fisk has outright better strength feats, need to review Brick's. However, when it comes to durability, Brick's bulletproof, which speaks to what it takes to put him down

I don't recall Brick doing anything comparable to what Fisk did against Daredevil. As far as him being bulletproof, I feel like it's a bit dubious. The only time I remember is when Diggle shot him, but they way it was shown is kind of hard to tell exactly what happened (i.e. did Brick straight tank the bullet, was John's aim off, etc.). I do know that Wildcat managed to bloody him, Merlyn downed him in about 3 blows (granted this was after the Wildcat fight), and Ollie knocked him out. I'm not trying to downplay Brick, I'm just saying that he can be knocked out with physical blows and Fisk, someone who has better strength feats (unless you find something comparable) and is a bit of a tank himself, packs enough power to do it.

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@indomitableregal: So Fisk threw around and easily overpowered Daredevil. But how strong is Daredevil? Olympic level? Certainly not peak human. Certainly he couldn't snap apart thick iron chains binding his arms through sheer brute strength like a certain Oliver Queen could. I'd give Fisk himself the benefit of the doubt over Queen as far as strength goes, but they're both peak humans, and Matt certainly isn't close.

And if you watch that clip above that Arcus posted, after getting shot through the arm with an arrow, Brick basically just shrugged it off, and decided to use his impaled arm as a weapon by hammer fisting Green Arrow from above, who barely caught the strike using both arms, and the two got into a struggle where Oliver basically used his entire body to just barely hold off Brick's one single arm from pushing down and impaling his face.

If you then watch their second fight, Oliver had extreme difficulty putting Brick down. He had to limit his fighting style to capoeira and extremely powerful kicks almost exclusively, because otherwise he couldn't hurt Brick. At one point he got Brick on the floor, wrapped him in a submission hold, and tried to dislocate his arm, but it was like pulling against an immovable object. Ollie literally couldn't do it. This is despite the fact that he proved in season 1 he can break bones like twigs, generate over 1,250 pounds of force when snapping necks in an instant, snap a superhuman neck with one hand, break metal, and more. Brick was the only thing too tough for him.

That's why I said Brick is nearly a metahuman. A strength difference of that magnitude, compared to this universe's quintessential peak human, means he can't possibly be a peak human himself.

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@indomitableregal: So Fisk threw around and easily overpowered Daredevil. But how strong is Daredevil? Olympic level? Certainly not peak human. Certainly he couldn't snap apart thick iron chains binding his arms through sheer brute strength like a certain Oliver Queen could. I'd give Fisk himself the benefit of the doubt over Queen as far as strength goes, but they're both peak humans, and Matt certainly isn't close.

And if you watch that clip above that Arcus posted, after getting shot through the arm with an arrow, Brick basically just shrugged it off, and decided to use his impaled arm as a weapon by hammer fisting Green Arrow from above, who barely caught the strike using both arms, and the two got into a struggle where Oliver basically used his entire body to just barely hold off Brick's one single arm from pushing down and impaling his face.

If you then watch their second fight, Oliver had extreme difficulty putting Brick down. He had to limit his fighting style to capoeira and extremely powerful kicks almost exclusively, because otherwise he couldn't hurt Brick. At one point he got Brick on the floor, wrapped him in a submission hold, and tried to dislocate his arm, but it was like pulling against an immovable object. Ollie literally couldn't do it. This is despite the fact that he proved in season 1 he can break bones like twigs, generate over 1,250 pounds of force when snapping necks in an instant, snap a superhuman neck with one hand, break metal, and more. Brick was the only thing too tough for him.

That's why I said Brick is nearly a metahuman. A strength difference of that magnitude, compared to this universe's quintessential peak human, means he can't possibly be a peak human himself.

When did either of those happen?

Also, breaking bones like twigs seems like an exaggeration

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@lubub55 said:

@nickzambuto: When did Oliver snap thick chains with his bare hands? Could you post a GIF or video?

Yes I can.

No Caption Provided

Hawkman couldn't break out of heavy chains either, and he's certainly on Oliver's level physically...

Dude, are you kidding me right now? Are you just blatantly trying your best to lowball, or do you really not see the difference between being mummified with a dozen chains wrapped around a giant steel beam granting zero leverage and zero wind up, and being able to break a mere two chains with wind up?

What Oliver did is at the very top-tier border of peak human, but still peak human nonetheless. The situation that Hawkman was in would have required massively superhuman, Spider-Man-levels of strength to break free from. I don't mean to sound like a hothead, but disregarding Oliver's peak human strength by equating these two situations as identical is a ridiculous argument.

@arcus1 said:

When did either of those happen?

Also, breaking bones like twigs seems like an exaggeration

Loading Video...

Twigs is actually a euphemism. Ollie broke that man's hand like it was made of paper.

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Team 2. Brick can beat Fisk with little trouble and Malcolm can take Nobu in straight hand to hand, although not easily.

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@nickzambuto:

In the chain gif it looks more like he slipped out of the chains, escape artist style, imo

Ok, breaking hands is what you were talking about like breaking bones. The way you said it made it sound like you were talking about breaking legs or arms. Even so, I can break twigs with minimal pressure from a couple fingers. That's hardly breaking bones like twigs, that would be superhuman even by usual fictional standards

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I might actually lean towards Team 2. I can see the bow being a really good counter for Nobu's weapon.

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Team 2.

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So, not really interested in debating this anymore, but I did mean to respond at some point...

@indomitableregal: So Fisk threw around and easily overpowered Daredevil. But how strong is Daredevil? Olympic level? Certainly not peak human. Certainly he couldn't snap apart thick iron chains binding his arms through sheer brute strength like a certain Oliver Queen could. I'd give Fisk himself the benefit of the doubt over Queen as far as strength goes, but they're both peak humans, and Matt certainly isn't close.

I don't see what Daredevil's strength has to do with him getting tossed around. Regardless of what Matt's strength may be, he's still a solidly-built adult male, and Kingpin tossed him several feet (DD's momentum was only stopped by a dumpster on the first toss, and a wall on the 2nd). The other detail that gets lost in this is that in the first toss (the one into the dumpster), Kingpin did it with ONE ARM. I'd say as far as strength feats, that's above peak.

And if you watch that clip above that Arcus posted, after getting shot through the arm with an arrow, Brick basically just shrugged it off, and decided to use his impaled arm as a weapon by hammer fisting Green Arrow from above,

No dispute here...

who barely caught the strike using both arms, and the two got into a struggle where Oliver basically used his entire body to just barely hold off Brick's one single arm from pushing down and impaling his face.

That's a bit of a stretch. Yes, he used both arms to stop it, and clearly there's some exertion in his face (especially since Brick has all the leverage), but he still pushed off Brick's arm within a couple seconds.

If you then watch their second fight, Oliver had extreme difficulty putting Brick down. He had to limit his fighting style to capoeira and extremely powerful kicks almost exclusively, because otherwise he couldn't hurt Brick. At one point he got Brick on the floor, wrapped him in a submission hold, and tried to dislocate his arm, but it was like pulling against an immovable object. Ollie literally couldn't do it. This is despite the fact that he proved in season 1 he can break bones like twigs, generate over 1,250 pounds of force when snapping necks in an instant, snap a superhuman neck with one hand, break metal, and more. Brick was the only thing too tough for him.

This again is exaggerated. I wouldn't say he had extreme difficulty putting him down (fight lasted less than a minute), nor did he really limit himself mostly to kicks, which for the record, Matt used several similar kicks against Fisk as well. He did try to dislocate his arm, but it isn't at all shown how Brick got out of that. Mind you, Brick showed some skill of his own when he employed a hold on Ollie's leg, and Ollie got out by punching a couple times.

And if the superhuman whose neck he snapped was Tianna, she certainly wasn't superhuman in that moment.

That's why I said Brick is nearly a metahuman. A strength difference of that magnitude, compared to this universe's quintessential peak human, means he can't possibly be a peak human himself.

For the record, there's a strength difference, but it still doesn't seem like much of one to me.