E.N.D. vs Doflamingo(Speed Equalized)

Rules:

• Both are current
• Speed is equalized (as mentioned in the title)
• Takes place on tenrou island
• If needed natsu can have nakama power(JK)
• No parasite string
• Win by death

Combatants:

Fairy Tail:

@darrellacoustic@strictlyanime@princearagorn1@lowlaville@justsomerandomkid@cjdavis103@redbird3rdboywonder@joewell@jacthripper@jgames@passingthrough545@newcomer

One Piece:

@dratini1331@darrellacoustic@homicidalmaniac@pierpat@funsiized@princearagorn1@cooldes@jmarshmallow@ghostravage@nighthunder@lowlaville@redbird3rdboywonder@cjdavis103@ssj_god@rexorr@pacpanda@jacthripper@stormking1221@garrettmana@terrortuga@darthsenju@cor_tsar@full123@cgoodness:@leo-343@just_banter@agentsandman@darthsenju@jiraiya_sageofoil@spidey_jackson@cull_obsidian@marczaddy

@jaycool2: Um, you tagged Fairy Tail twice?

Mingo parasites him.

This. Unless Natsu broke out of something similar....?

@full123: thanks for noticing i'll change that

Natsu high diff. The way he's been going recently, I sometimes feel he can go even go toe to toe with Luffy.

G4 Luffy could break Flamingo's threads out of brute force. BDKM Natsu might just be able to burn them... and make a shroud of fire/heat so intense Doflamingo couldn't come close enough...

By hype I see Doflamingo superior but something tells me Natsu's got this. In any case if Natsu defeats him it'll be with more difficulty than G4 Luffy had.

@chaarrrt:

1. Doflamingo shouldn't need to come close.

2. Armanent Haki Parasite strings can deal with the heat (probably)

3. G4 Luffy was outlasted by a Doflamingo who was hovering on the edge of death (he just had his organs by radiation, and then electricity in the same second.)

@full123: @goldroger1:removed parasite string

@full123 Having speed equalised and giving Natsu haki is making Natsu a Sabo+++

Also Natsu's heat is not any heat. It is an aura of heat that can evaporate a lake within seconds.

Also removing parasite strings (which are not a problem since Natsu could just burn them) and giving Natsu the possibility of PoF, Natsu stomps.

In normal conditions, that is, without restrictions for Doflamingo and without advantages for Natsu, there'd still be a fight that probably would be won by Dofla, with a certain degree of difficulty.

@full123: @chaarrrt: natsu only get's haki if he needs it just makin sure you remember

here: http://img.mymanga.me/1802671875222104634262986649.png - Also that punch is mountain buster.

Bump

Doflamingo slaughters

Natsu dies. Doffy is a physical monster and was way beyond Luffy. And his abilities are way to deadly for Natsu to deal with. And Doffy could easily restrain him. Natsu has good striking strength but piss poor raw physical strength in comparison to other characters.

bump

You make a fair point i will remove armament haki

This should've been a poll.

Anyway Doflamingo doesn't slaughter at all. I'm not even sure if he beats Natsu...

@chaarrrt: i often forget to do something on polls so i only use them when i really feel like it

Okay I'm nowhere near caught up on Fairy Tail but I'm not convinced Natsu can win this. Doffy is a pretty good strategist and does more psychological planning to tilt his enemy. Not to mention his powers are gross.

Being this a 1 vs 1, Doflamingo cannot blackmail Natsu (for example, he can't trap Lucy with his thread and manipulate Natsu accordingly because Lucy is not in this battle).

I'm pretty convinced the fight would go like this:

Doflamingo would try to manipulate Natsu with his threads (parasite string is restricted but it's not like it's gonna really hurt Natsu). Upon the inability to move, Natsu will understand Doflamingo can manipulate thread and will burn it to free himself.

Upon seeing this Doflamingo will try to closen their range in order to fight cqc (using haki) OR he will still fly and use his thread techniques.

For the former: it's gonna be hard for Doflamingo to approach Natsu. I don't know the extent to which one is faster than the other, nor would I be able to say which one is faster and which one is slower, but as I see it, their speeds are enough so as not to blitz the other (the other one is gonna be able to defend from the one with superior speed). Speed is equalized in any case so blitzes are not happening. Haki is gonna be a threat but so is PoF in the end... Also Natsu's heat aura makes spriggan-level enemies recoil in pain so... it's gonna be hard for Doflamingo to keep the close range.

For the latter: Goshikito is not gonna work: Natsu's gonna be aware of the threads and will maintain his heat aura which can logically burn his threads (since Natsu can melt any weapon thrown at him before it impacts, he's gonna be able to burn something much, much, much thinner, even if Doflamingo's thread is resistant to heat). Natsu's heat is not average heat: he can evaporate a lake or melt town-sized stone stadium within seconds.

Overheat might be more of an advantage than it is a menace to Natsu. Since Luffy was capable of dodging it without using gears, I'm gonna assume Natsu can do so as well. Natsu at peak speed could probably rival gear 2's speed but I'm not gonna enter this field of play since I have no feats to prove so. The thing is, since it's a very very very hot thread, as in, an incandescent thread, Natsu can probably just swallow its heat and power up from it.

I unfortunately don't have feats for Natsu's durability but at this point in the manga it must be pretty damn high. Tamaito being a shigan-level technique will probably not affect him. Also, he can probably just burn it with his aura activated.

Black knight, being a thread clone, isn't gonna last much as Natsu can, again, burn it.

Itonoko may be able to cut any of his limbs but again, with his heat aura activated it's like the thread burns/melts before severing him. Same for athlete.

Now for his awakened techniques... Since thread is much more compressed it's probably not gonna burn so fast. I can see Natsu dodging most of the awakened attacks. Those imbued with haki are gonna be tough though. Natsu's heat aura can burn pretty much anything but haki-imbued thread... not so sure.

Advantages for Natsu: there's a heat aura he can sustain and anything that enters that aura is gonna get burnt or melted, probably. He's got mountain busting techniques.

Advantages for Doflamingo: He's overall more versatile, has good durability, speed, strength, technique. He can fly. He's smart and sly. Good defense using his most powerful thread techniques for defense.

As I see it, I can't see a victor since I have no feats to check on who's faster or stronger than the other. I can say, though, it's not gonna be a stomp for any of the parties.

@thevivas: You're not accounting for his BDKM mode and his heat aura. If he can evaporate a lake in a second or melt a town-sized stone stadium within seconds (minutes?), guess what he's gonna do to Dofla if he gets close. Or what he's gonna do to any thread dofla throws at him.

@chaarrrt:

You're not accounting for his BDKM mode and his heat aura.

Don't need to, cause they're not helping Natsu win.

If he can evaporate a lake in a second

I've seen that scan. There's no proof that he melted the entire lake, and we can't even tell how big it is.

or melt a town-sized stone stadium within seconds (minutes?)

Town-sized stadium? Are you kidding me? The stadium fit inside of the town, how the hell is the stadium itself town-sized?

It looks like you're going back to your "inflating feats" phase.

And it's not that impressive considering everyone in the stadium, even normal humans, were unharmed.

guess what he's gonna do to Dofla if he gets close. Or what he's gonna do to any thread dofla throws at him.

You've already claimed in this very thread that you aren't caught up on One Piece. I am, and so is Deathhero. Not sure why you're even debating for Natsu, then.

@thevivas: I still don't know how to quote sentence by sentence and answer so I have to tag you...

1. Tell me how his heat aura is not helping him in this battle.

2. You're denying feats because it suits you. He melted a lake as was proven in the scans + as stated by his fellow mages. Not only do calcs support it takes mountain busting energy to pull off such a feat, but also imagine what heat like that would do to a human body. Vaporizing it probably.

3. You're right. It is town-sized, though, only very small town-sized. I've been in towns/villages that small where I live. It was stated that it was town-sized because it is located in a city. Thing is, cities in animes like Fairy Tail are as small as towns in the real world. You're right that humans were only slightly fazed by the heat but their clothes were even melting, and he was in the middle of the stadium which means his heat aura reaches a diameter around as big as the arena (1 km maybe) although the real AoE for it to be painful/deadly is much closer indeed. Anyway, Natsu wasn't even trying as he didn't want to kill anyone. He wasn't even using his BDKM mode there. Also, I think any human would die from heat that melts your clothes (it should theoretically roast your organs/skin) but I understand that this is anime so feats aren't consistant always... especially in gag-ish anime like FT or OP.

Tell me anything I said in my arguments by which you think I'm "going back to my "inflating feats" phase.

When did I state such a thing? I watch the anime and read the manga, I'm a big OP fan. It is Bleach which I only read/Watched but I didn't like much so I wasn't (am not) too knowledgeable of the power levels due to lack of attention to details, so you're probably not gonna see me answer a bleach thread. Stop questioning if your reasoning or arguments are above other people's and begin proving feats for why you think your chosen character wins.

@chaarrrt:

Tell me how his heat aura is not helping him in this battle.

Because it never helped him in any fight ever, only somewhat in his skirmish with Zeref.

You're denying feats because it suits you. He melted a lake as was proven in the scans + as stated by his fellow mages. Not only do calcs support it takes mountain busting energy to pull off such a feat, but also imagine what heat like that would do to a human body. Vaporizing it probably.

Nope, I'm denying it because we don't have all the facts. It wasn't stated that the whole lake itself was vaporized/melted.

The size of the lake isn't mentioned at all.

All you're doing is inflating the showing to make it more impressive.

You're right. It is town-sized, though, only very small town-sized

No, it's not.

I've been in towns/villages that small where I live. It was stated that it was town-sized because it is located in a city. Thing is, cities in animes like Fairy Tail are as small as towns in the real world.

None of this matters. The stadium isn't town sized at all.

You're right that humans were only slightly fazed by the heat but their clothes were even melting, and he was in the middle of the stadium which means his heat aura reaches a diameter around as big as the arena (1 km maybe) although the real AoE for it to be painful/deadly is much closer indeed

Not even gonna comment on the 1 km diameter because he has a better heat aura showing in the later chapters, but again, it's not helping him because it's not helping him. It couldn't hurt those people and it didn't hurt Zeref's soldiers.

Anyway, Natsu wasn't even trying as he didn't want to kill anyone. He wasn't even using his BDKM mode there. Also, I think any human would die from heat that melts your clothes (it should theoretically roast your organs/skin) but I understand that this is anime so feats aren't consistant always... especially in gag-ish anime like FT or OP.

It doesn't matter if normal people would die from that heat, because they didn't.

And FT is way more gagish than OP. In One Piece, if people get sliced by a sword, they get sliced, not hit back like in FT.

Tell me anything I said in my arguments by which you think I'm "going back to my "inflating feats" phase.

You're inflating Natsu's showings, like you did to the Spriggans.

When did I state such a thing? I watch the anime and read the manga, I'm a big OP fan.

Post #24. You stated that you don't know who is faster, Doffy or Natsu. You also then said you don't have feats to prove who is faster or stronger. Anyone caught up on both series knows that Doffy is the clear superior in both.

Stop questioning if your reasoning or arguments are above other people's and begin proving feats for why you think your chosen character wins.

Funny how you only target me out of everyone else who said Doffy wins. Very funny indeed.

And I'll start doing that the minute you stop inflating characters' showings because you feel like it.

Doffy wins because he has better feats. You can't claim he doesn't after you literally just said "I don't know who has better strength/speed feats".

@thevivas Natsu has only fought two opponents with which it would be necessary to use his aura: Zeref and Jacob. His battle against Zeref is some other story as he was using Igneel's powers: Natsu in that form is much stronger than his usual self. Against Jacob, he used it and it hurt him. Jacob is a spriggan-tier opponent. Spriggans are the mightiest force of the FT world, we could say (save for the dragons). If you don't want to scale that to the OP verse, any heat that can evaporate a lake can hurt someone like Doflamingo.

"Nope, I'm denying it because we don't have all the facts. It wasn't stated that the whole lake itself was vaporized/melted."

Look at the panels to get an idea of what he did. He evaporated milions of liters of water in a matter of one second (the time it took for him to pass through it). That takes mountain-busting energy.

Also look at this scan. I don't know if what we see is the evaporated lake, or the result of such a vastly strong punch devastating the land: http://i995.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/479/fairy-tail-7298863.jpg if it is the former, you can guess the size of the lake. It's not super big, but there are many milions of liters of water in there.

"All you're doing is inflating the showing to make it more impressive."

Nope I'm providing scans/feats. Let people judge by themselves.

"No, it's not."

Oh wow, so the town I went on vacation last year, which was 0,5 km in diameter, isn't a town now!

"None of this matters. The stadium isn't town sized at all."

Depends on your notion of the size of a town. Not a town as in used in calcs probably.

"Not even gonna comment on the 1 km diameter because he has a better heat aura showing in the later chapters, but again, it's not helping him because it's not helping him. It couldn't hurt those people and it didn't hurt Zeref's soldiers."

People in the stadium were dozens/hundreds of m away, Jacob was point blank and it did hurt him. Also if it can melt rock, steel and vaporize water instantly, it can hurt pretty much anyone in the OP verse except for Ace/Sabo/Akainu/Marco?.

"It doesn't matter if normal people would die from that heat, because they didn't."

Average people can resist mountain busting energy because he says so... xD

"And FT is way more gagish than OP. In One Piece, if people get sliced by a sword, they get sliced, not hit back like in FT."

True.

"You're inflating Natsu's showings, like you did to the Spriggans."

Am I?

"Post #24. You stated that you don't know who is faster, Doffy or Natsu. You also then said you don't have feats to prove who is faster or stronger. Anyone caught up on both series knows that Doffy is the clear superior in both."

Not necessarily as Natsu doesn't have sufficient speed feats as he only fought twice post-ts: Zeref (in which he blitzed him, which shows tremendous speed, but he was using Igneel's power so that's not a valid feat) and Jacob (but he was propelled by Makarov so that's not a speed feat of his). He still hasn't fought anyone strong enough for him to have to use decent speed feats. You can't profe Doflamingo is faster than Natsu when Natsu hasn't showed anything yet.

"Funny how you only target me out of everyone else who said Doffy wins. Very funny indeed."

Sorry if it appears like this, but you were addressing me.

Also I don't necessarily think the people who argue in favor of Doffy are wrong. I myself are indecissive as to who'd win. I'm just saying it wouldn't necessarily be a stomp. Also I'm being respectful to you so don't be offended.

"And I'll start doing that the minute you stop inflating characters' showings because you feel like it."

Sorry about that, it was a one-time thing and I inflated their speeds (it's true) based on powerscaling alone when they haven't proved to be as fast as I stated they'd be, but that was another topic. I still believe Fairy Tail top-tiers can rival OP top-tiers in speed, but I have no evidence to prove so.

"Doffy wins because he has better feats. You can't claim he doesn't after you literally just said "I don't know who has better strength/speed feats"."

that "I don't know" was as in saying: "I think both have decent feats I can't decide". I still think any attack from Dofla involving thread, except for awakening attacks+haki, would be vaporized before it touched Natsu.

Natsu wins via power of friendshiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii...

@chaarrrt:

Natsu has only fought two opponents with which it would be necessary to use his aura: Zeref and Jacob. His battle against Zeref is some other story as he was using Igneel's powers: Natsu in that form is much stronger than his usual self. Against Jacob, he used it and it hurt him. Jacob is a spriggan-tier opponent. Spriggans are the mightiest force of the FT world, we could say (save for the dragons). If you don't want to scale that to the OP verse, any heat that can evaporate a lake can hurt someone like Doflamingo.

You're comparing Jacob to Doflamingo now? Oh god...

No, you don't get to apply "Srpiggan-tier" to Jacob because their is no "Spriggan-tier". They operate on hax, not physicals. If you wanna use Spriggan-tier, Jacob can be knocked out by a karate chop like Brandish was.

And no, that heat isn't going to bother Doffy when it couldn't bother regular humans.

Look at the panels to get an idea of what he did. He evaporated milions of liters of water in a matter of one second (the time it took for him to pass through it). That takes mountain-busting energy.

Where are you getting this "one second" from? Was it stated somewhere only you can see?

And millions of liters of water? Really? You can't even see how big the lake is, and reposting that scan isn't doing anything.

Also look at this scan. I don't know if what we see is the evaporated lake, or the result of such a vastly strong punch devastating the land: http://i995.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/479/fairy-tail-7298863.jpg if it is the former, you can guess the size of the lake. It's not super big, but there are many milions of liters of water in there.

What we see is the lake, and some of the water evaporating. That's like claiming Mira can evaporate an entire ocean based on this, which is way worse than stupid:

.

Nope I'm providing scans/feats. Let people judge by themselves.

Oh please, this is the first scan you've posted. Don't pull that bullshit here.

Oh wow, so the town I went on vacation last year, which was 0,5 km in diameter, isn't a town now!

So now you can't even read what I reply to. You claimed the stadium was town sized, I said "No it's not".

Need a little help reading there?

Depends on your notion of the size of a town. Not a town as in used in calcs probably.

A normal sized town. That stadium isn't the size of a normal sized town.

People in the stadium were dozens/hundreds of m away, Jacob was point blank and it did hurt him. Also if it can melt rock, steel and vaporize water instantly, it can hurt pretty much anyone in the OP verse except for Ace/Sabo/Akainu/Marco?.

It doesn't matter about the distance they were to him. The humans weren't affected, and neither was the Guild actually in the stadium with him.

And no, you're extremely underestimating how durable people in OP are if you think that's going to hurt them or be of any use in this fight.

Average people can resist mountain busting energy because he says so... xD

No, because the manga says so.

Am I?

Yes. You are.

Not necessarily as Natsu doesn't have sufficient speed feats as he only fought twice post-ts: Zeref (in which he blitzed him, which shows tremendous speed, but he was using Igneel's power so that's not a valid feat) and Jacob (but he was propelled by Makarov so that's not a speed feat of his). He still hasn't fought anyone strong enough for him to have to use decent speed feats. You can't profe Doflamingo is faster than Natsu when Natsu hasn't showed anything yet.

That's not how debating works. Like, at all.

You either have the feats to say you can do something, or you don't. Natsu already has speed feats. Just because they aren't as good as Doflamingo's, doesn't mean you can just say "well his aren't good enough to we'll wait until he gets better ones to say who's faster".

Doflamingo is faster. Period.

Sorry if it appears like this, but you were addressing me.

Conceded, aren't we?

You do know what not every single one of my posts on this site are directed at you, right? I don't know, maybe the fact that I didn't tag you means something....

Also I don't necessarily think the people who argue in favor of Doffy are wrong. I myself are indecissive as to who'd win. I'm just saying it wouldn't necessarily be a stomp. Also I'm being respectful to you so don't be offended.

So you just assumed my post was directed at you based on nothing, then tell me you can't decide a winner but then try to debate with me on how Doffy isn't winning.

Right.

Still Doffy under these conditions, but with mid-high difficulty. Without Natsu's nakama power up, I can't see him winning this battle (Or most of the battles he has been in for that matter)

p.s. I do not like Fairy Tail

Would Doflamingo beat Luffy if he was at full health or something?

@thevivas

1. Partially right, but Jacob can do cqc.

2. Yes, lake-evaporating heat is gonna hurt Doflamingo. A lot.

3. "one second" is around as much time as it took for him to cross the lake. It is an approximation.

4. This is 3,78 million liters of water: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y58L_6hQGQ That like is at the very least bigger than that.

5. "That's like claiming Mira can evaporate an entire ocean based on this" plain stupid indeed. But if the image I posted is indeed the lake, you get to fathom the quantity of water we're talking about = the energy it takes to do so in the time he did it.

6. "Oh please, this is the first scan you've posted. Don't pull that bullshit here." Ok.

7. "So now you can't even read what I reply to. You claimed the stadium was town sized, I said "No it's not".

Need a little help reading there?" No thx.

8. "A normal sized town. That stadium isn't the size of a normal sized town." Ok.

9. "It doesn't matter about the distance they were to him." Lol.

10. "The humans weren't affected, and neither was the Guild actually in the stadium with him." Gag scene. Their clothes were melting. That heat should've logically killed them.

11. "And no, you're extremely underestimating how durable people in OP are if you think that's going to hurt them or be of any use in this fight." Extreme heat could hurt even Ace, who "was" fire... You're overestimating their durability here.

12. "No, because the manga says so." Learn to discern between gag scenes and realistic scenes.

13. "Yes. You are." If you say so :$

14. "That's not how debating works. Like, at all." Yeah right.

15. "You either have the feats to say you can do something, or you don't." I said it before: I don't.

16. "Natsu already has speed feats." Yeah pre-skip Natsu.

17. "Just because they aren't as good as Doflamingo's, doesn't mean you can just say "well his aren't good enough to we'll wait until he gets better ones to say who's faster". He blitzed Zeref. What I can't do is make calcs and tell you: Hey that was Mach 37 speed, whereas best Doflamingo's feat was exactly Mach 67,596. Can you do that?

18. "Doflamingo is faster. Period." Prove it. What's his fastest showing? What mach is it?

19. "You do know what not every single one of my posts on this site are directed at you, right? I don't know, maybe the fact that I didn't tag you means something...." Ok.

20. "So you just assumed my post was directed at you based on nothing, then tell me you can't decide a winner but then try to debate with me on how Doffy isn't winning.

Right." You're a great word twister :P Congrats

@kingtheron But he does have PoF :P (Nakama powerup xD)

@mr_nofunallowed If Luffy began in 4th gear and was serious from the beginning, probably. I'm having my doubts since Gear 4 runs out pretty fast though.

@chaarrrt:

Partially right, but Jacob can do cqc.

You're missing the point. There is no "Spriggan tier".

No Spriggan tier strength, no Spriggan tier durability, no Spriggan tier speed, etc. So claiming his flame aura hurt a "Spriggan tier" opponent isn't telling anyone anything.

Yes, lake-evaporating heat is gonna hurt Doflamingo. A lot.

No it's not.

This is 3,78 million liters of water: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y58L_6hQGQ That like is at the very least bigger than that.

At least that big based on.......nothing.

Gag scene. Their clothes were melting. That heat should've logically killed them.

Yet it didn't.

Extreme heat could hurt even Ace, who "was" fire... You're overestimating their durability here

No a superior DF could hurt him. Get it right.

Also, Ace isn't Doflamingo.

Learn to discern between gag scenes and realistic scenes.

You don't get to decide which scenes should be taken seriously and which ones don't.

Natsu eating the "heat" from explosions is PIS, Natsu not dying from being shot in the mouth is PIS and gagish, doesn't mean we just throw them out because we don't like them.

Yeah right.

I said it before: I don't.

That's how you debate. You use the feats they have, you don't get to "wait" or put the debate on hold just because one character's aren't good enough.

Yeah pre-skip Natsu.

Doesn't matter. You use the feats he has. And the feats he has doesn't make him faster.

He blitzed Zeref. What I can't do is make calcs and tell you: Hey that was Mach 37 speed, whereas best Doflamingo's feat was exactly Mach 67,596. Can you do that?

I'm not going to make a non-Canon fan calc to determine who's faster, I'm going to look at their feats and use my own judgement.

Sanji himself is faster than Natsu, yet he isn't the same speed as Doffy.

Prove it. What's his fastest showing? What mach is it?

Already covered above.

doffy.

@thevivas:

- Wrong, there is a spriggan tier. All spriggans possess more MP than Makarov (at least) + they have terrible hax (Brandish, Neinhart) OR combat abilities (God Serena) OR a hybrid of both (Dimaria, Jacob, Invel). This is a tier that is above "GoI tier" which is above "WS tier" which is above "S-class FT mage" and so on.

No spriggan tier durability? God Serena was 100% unfazed after an array of attacks by 3 GoI + 1 WS. Jura, who was one of the strongest mages pre-skip, couldn't even put up a scratch on God Serena. No durability feats you say? DF Wendy powered up by Ultear couldn't even push Chronos Dimaria back even using her strongest cqc (combined with her astounding speed). And so on, and so forth.

No spriggan tier strength? Historia God Serena, who must be around 50% of the real God Serena's power, withstood a headbutt from Glidartz, a guy with casual mountain busting punches. Natsu has also mountain busting attacks (durability for you: Jacob didn't die from a mountain busting punch).

Speed hasn't been explored much yet, though. But look below for a few showings.

- Doflamingo might have mountain durability but even then, that doesn't mean he's not gonna get hurt by such attacks. Also what's the tier of gear 4th Luffy's best attack? Mountain buster probably...

- Can't you estimate the size of the lake in that image when compared to a 4 milion liter tank? Huh... Well I'll help you: a few tanks like that would fit in.

- "Yet it didn't." - Yet you don't understand gag scenes.

- No, a superior quality of heat could hurt him. Don't twist facts. Ace could face a guy with superior fruit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGu0884-HU4 And yeah, Ace is not doflamingo. Ace would probably still get hurt by mountain-busting heat so imagine Dofla...

- No, the author gets to decide when to interpret gag and realistic scenes and we're supposed to be smart enough to discern between both.

- "Natsu eating the "heat" from explosions is PIS" Why? He can absorb all heat sources. "Natsu not dying from being shot in the mouth is PIS and gagish" Maybe, but BoS Kid Goku could tank guns. Also Natsu is not a normal mage/human, he's a synthetic human/demon so his durability may work differently. Or it may just be PIS. I don't see what you're trying to prove here. It's normal that sometimes certain scenes are misleading in such a gag-ish manga but of course it's possible to understand which ones are gag-ish and which ones are not. If heat is enough to burn your clothes it is enough to burn your skin. If heat is enough to melt rock it is enough to burn your insides. The gag part was it not killing humans because 1) innocent human beings are not gonna be killed to show off Natsu's powers and 2) Natsu didn't have intention of killing them. Also we don't know the durability of FT humans as compared to real-world humans.

For example, calcs make earthland be several times bigger than our planet. It makes sense since from hargeon to magnolia there are 400 km (stated) and in the map, it is a very small portion of Fiore, a country. Fiore is in turn continental size (bigger than the US if IIRC). And then there's a country which is 10 times bigger... A bigger planet means several times more gravity, which means several times upgraded humans. But that's going too far off-topic. And Mashima probably didn't even think of such things.

- That's how you debate: you're reluctant to accept facts while I'm trying to be realistic, but you're gonna keep on bashing me because you don't like me because I said some non-sense some time ago. But I'm still waiting feats, facts, evidence that support your argument...

- Doesn't matter??????? So pre-ts Natsu = post-ts Natsu => pre-ts Luffy = post-ts Luffy xD - A character who goes from city-block to mountain buster in one timeskip has also significantly increased in speed. Also I'm providing feats:

- If you're not going by calcs look at these speed feats: Natsu blitzing Zeref, a top-tier FT character. Acnologia (top tier) blitzing God Serena (high tier). Pre-TS Wendy showing mach speed. Laxus dodging many continuous laser bullets that are supersonic++ at the very least, hypersonic likely.

Now tell me how such speed showings don't compare to the OP verse or to Doflamingo for that matter.

- Prove to me Sanji is faster than Natsu.

@chaarrrt:

All spriggans possess more MP than Makarov (at least) + they have terrible hax (Brandish, Neinhart) OR combat abilities (God Serena) OR a hybrid of both (Dimaria, Jacob, Invel). This is a tier that is above "GoI tier" which is above "WS tier" which is above "S-class FT mage" and so on

No there isn't a Spriggan tier. There is no defined strength you need to be considered a Spriggan, there is no defined speed you need to be considered a Spriggan, there is no defined attack potency to be considered a Spriggan.

All you're doing is stating what each Spriggan can do, and trying to equate that to what people on that "tier" can do. Which doesn't work.

No spriggan tier durability? God Serena was 100% unfazed after an array of attacks by 3 GoI + 1 WS. Jura, who was one of the strongest mages pre-skip, couldn't even put up a scratch on God Serena. No durability feats you say?

And now you can't even read what I'm writing. It seems you're just disagreeing for the sake of arguing and continuing this dead conversation.

That's a durability feat for God Serena. If you're trying to make a Spriggan tier, then everyone would be around the same durability. And they're not.

DF Wendy powered up by Ultear couldn't even push Chronos Dimaria back even using her strongest cqc (combined with her astounding speed). And so on, and so forth.

Again, nothing proving there's a Spriggan tier, or certain level of durability you need to be considered Spriggan tier.

No spriggan tier strength? Historia God Serena, who must be around 50% of the real God Serena's power, withstood a headbutt from Glidartz, a guy with casual mountain busting punches. Natsu has also mountain busting attacks (durability for you: Jacob didn't die from a mountain busting punch).

You're terrible at this thing called "debating".

All you're doing is naming feats for specific characters, and trying to attribute that to every other Spriggan based on a hypothetical tier system that doesn't even work.

That's a feat for Serena, not every other Spriggan.

Doflamingo does not have mountain durability and even if he had it, he's still gonna get hurt from mountain busting attacks so don't deny the obvious...

I'm not even gonna start with this one, but there's no way in hell Natsu is hitting him with Haki.

Can't you estimate the size of the lake when compared to a 4 milion liter tank? Huh...

I can't do that, you can't look at the manga without making up your own assumptions that are based on nothing.

What can you do?

Yet you don't understand gag scenes.

Yet you still don't get to decide which feats we use and which ones we don't.

No, a superior quality of heat could hurt him. Don't twist facts. And yeah, Ace is not doflamingo. Ace would probably still get hurt by mountain-busting heat so imagine Dofla...

No, a superior DF. The only one twisting facts to further help himself is you.

No, the author gets to decide when to interpret gag and realistic scenes and we're supposed to be smart enough to discern between both.

No we take what is given. You don't get to decide "Well in an ideal world, this would do more damage than was shown, so we're gonna say it does more damage".

Why? He can absorb all heat sources

No, his magic allows him to eat fire. If he could eat just straight up "heat", why can't he eat a person's body heat? Why can't he just run his hands and eat the heat caused by that?

He eats fire, not "heat".

Maybe, but BoS Kid Goku could tank guns

Natsu isn't a Saiyan. Terrible comparison.

If heat is enough to burn your clothes it is enough to burn your skin.

But guess what? It didn't.

If heat is enough to melt rock it is enough to burn your insides.

But guess what? It didn't.

Also we don't know the durability of FT humans as compared to real-world humans. For example, calcs make earthland be several times bigger than our planet, which means several times more gravity, which means several times upgraded humans. But that's going too far off-topic. And Mashima probably didn't even think of such things.

They're normal humans until stated otherwise.

That's how you debate: you're reluctant to accept facts and you're too biased so you're just gonna keep on bashing me. But I'm still waiting feats, facts, evidence...

No that's how everyone debates.

Your debating consists of inflating feats, applying certain feats to characters because you feel like it, and not wanting to debate using a character's feats because they aren't good enough but willing to wait until said character gets those feats, despite the fact that they may never will. We use what Natsu has shown, not what you think he will show later on.

Tell me again who's the biased one.

Doesn't matter??????? So pre-ts Natsu = post-ts Natsu => pre-ts Luffy = post-ts Luffy

Learn to read instead of trying to be a smartass.

Natsu doesn't have current speed feats. That doesn't mean you can say "well we just have to wait until he does". You use what he has and that's it.

You really need to learn how to debate.

A character who goes from city-block to mountain buster in one timeskip has also significantly increased in speed.

Based on what?

Speed is it's own category, it doesn't suddenly increase just because you're striking power increased.

If you're not going by calcs look at these speed feats

Not impressive at all, especially considering Zeref also has no speed feats to determine how fast Natsu was going. At best, that's about as fast as pre-timeskip Luffy.

Now tell me how such speed showings don't compare to the OP verse or to Doflamingo for that matter.

Because they're not impressive. God Serena has no speed feats worth mentioning, which makes Acnologia oneshotting him not impressive speed wise.

Pre-timeskip Zoro and Luffy could dodge bullets and their first feat post-timeskip was dodging Kuma's lasers.

Pre-timeskip Luffy has done the whole "vanish and reappear" act Wendy pulled.

Not impressive and not even close to being a threat to Doffy.

Prove to me Sanji is faster than Natsu.

Sanji can move fast enough to actually set his legs on fire. Natsu has never shown that level of speed.

Doffy

Hi everyone

@thevivas:

- You make little sense saying there is no Spriggan-tier just because their abilities differ in terms of deadliness, power, etc. I could say the Shichibukai isn't a tier since there are yonko-level people (Mihawk) and... err... Buggy... Spriggan is more of a tier than Shichibukai for sure. Also you're gonna say "yeah shichibukai is not a tier" but for example in the vice-admiral tier there was an admiral-level character, and possibly a very weak-ish vice-admiral who could be beaten by Garp by just looking at him so... levels differ greatly among tiers this is why there's a high end and a low end within a same tier.

Is there a defined strength, speed or durability to be a vice-admiral? and to be a shichibukai? and to be a yonko?

- All spriggans were stated to be on the same level except for August, Irene and probably Larcade; which means they probably have similar durability indeed. As much as I consider God Serena times stronger than Neinhart, the FT fandom is split between those who think the other 9 spriggans have the same overall abilities and those who claim they don't.

- He says I'm terrible at debating... You're funny :P

- "I can't do that, you can't look at the manga without making up your own assumptions that are based on nothing." <- yeah, this is what you do everytime you try to attribute a certain speed to a character basing it on a scan. Since you don't rely on calcs you just look at a scan and decide that this is a "good" or a "bad" speed showing according to... what?

- "No, a superior DF. The only one twisting facts to further help himself is you." reread my post, as I edited it and proved you wrong.

- "No, his magic allows him to eat fire. If he could eat just straight up "heat", why can't he eat a person's body heat? Why can't he just run his hands and eat the heat caused by that?" - He could eat part of a lava pillar from August, and lava is not only fire.

- "Natsu isn't a Saiyan. Terrible comparison." - People usually compare BoS Naruto characters to BoS DB characters. It's not a terrible comparison. Current Natsu would fodderize the hell out of Beginning of Dragon Ball Goku.

- "But guess what? It didn't." You're so biased it's not even funny.

- "They're normal humans until stated otherwise." <- yeah so earthland is = the earth yet there is a country 10 times bigger to Fiore, Fiore being as big as North America. And Fiore being in Ishgar and Ishgar being a continent which is as big as the pangea or bigger...

- "Your debating consists of inflating feats, applying certain feats to characters because you feel like it, and not wanting to debate using a character's feats because they aren't good enough but willing to wait until said character gets those feats, despite the fact that they may never will. We use what Natsu has shown, not what you think he will show later on." - tell me where I inflated a feat, I applied a certain feat to a character because I felt like it, or I didn't want to debate using a character's feats because bla bla bla in this thread. Now you just sound like you have nothing to counter-argument

- "Natsu doesn't have current speed feats. That doesn't mean you can say "well we just have to wait until he does". You use what he has and that's it." But he does. Just not enough to determine how fast he's become but definetely faster than his pre-ts self. Yet you say his pre-ts feats still stand because there are not enough to prove he's improved... well haha

- "Based on what?

Speed is it's own category, it doesn't suddenly increase just because you're striking power increased." I don't wanna attempt to educate you because I'd sound arrogant, and I'm not a physicist, but even I know speed and strength are tightly correlated.

- "Not impressive at all, especially considering Zeref also has no speed feats to determine how fast Natsu was going. At best, that's about as fast as pre-timeskip Luffy." Not impressive to you because you're not gonna concede as you're too biased. Show me scans of Doflamingo's speed, please, still waiting.

- "Sanji can move fast enough to actually set his legs on fire. Natsu has never shown that level of speed." - Kizaru kicks faster and his leg doesn't set on fire. Natsu is faster and he doesn't set on fire using his fastest move. Try again.

Also I think we should be ending this nonsense. You're arguing because you don't like me and you can't prove me wrong yet I can but you don't concede so it gets tiresome u.u.

@chaarrrt:

You make little sense saying there is no Spriggan-tier just because their abilities differ in terms of deadliness, power, etc.

No, I make total sense.

I could say the Shichibukai isn't a tier since there are yonko-level people (Mihawk) and... err... Buggy

Shichibukai is a tier because all of them have to be above a certain level of strength, speed, and durability. Buggy was only thrown in because of his background.

And so what if there are Yonko level people in there?

Spriggan is more of a tier than Shichibukai for sure

To you, maybe. But then again you're also trying to claim a stadium inside of a town/city is as large as a town, so.....yeah.

Also you're gonna say "yeah shichibukai is not a tier" but for example in the vice-admiral tier there was an admiral-level character, and possibly a very weak-ish vice-admiral who could be beaten by Garp by just looking at him so... levels differ greatly among tiers this is why there's a high end and a low end within a same tier.

This attempt is pretty pitiful, actually. You only get to become a Vice Admiral if you know certain Rokushiki techniques and are a certain level of strength. Just because there are stronger Vice Admirals doesn't make it "not a tier". Unlike the Spriggan, however, who are all over the place in terms of physicals.

Is there a defined strength, speed or durability to be a vice-admiral?

There's defined levels, yes.

In fact, the longer this "debate" goes on, the more obvious it becomes that you aren't as knowledgeable in One Piece as you should be.

and to be a shichibukai? and to be a yonko?

Um yes, there is.

Shichibukai also has other factors, but all the Yonko are above Shichibukai level.

All spriggans were stated to be on the same level except for August, Irene and probably Larcade; which means they probably have similar durability indeed.

And now you're clearly making up stats again to further suit your needs. Ajeel could tank an attack from Jupiter, yet Brandish was KO'd by a karate chop.

As much as I consider God Serena times stronger than Neinhart, the FT fandom is split between those who think the other 9 spriggans have the same overall abilities and those who claim they don't.

What is there to be split on? Neinhart was beaten by Jellal's Grand Chariot, whereas the members of Oracion Seis needed that and his Sema to be taken out, iirc.

He says I'm terrible at debating... You're funny :P

Thank you for the compliment.

And you are.

yeah, this is what you do everytime you try to attribute a certain speed to a character basing it on a scan. Since you don't rely on calcs you just look at a scan and decide that this is a "good" or a "bad" speed showing according to... what?

What makes a speed feat impressive? Are you serious?

The distance that character traveled and the time (if specified) in which he/she did so, reacting to an attack with a certain speed, outspeeding another character who already has established speed feats, etc.

Unlike you, I don't make up "facts" to fill in the blanks for slightly vague scans.

reread my post, as I edited it and proved you wrong

You claimed "He was hurt by a hotter fire", which is false, already proven by the manga when Akainu said his magma is superior, not hotter.

And no, you haven't proven me wrong.

He could eat part of a lava pillar from August, and lava is not only fire

Lava causes fires because of its heat.

And good job dodging all my questions!

People usually compare BoS Naruto characters to BoS DB characters

So because other people to something just as stupid, that makes your comparison less stupid?

It's not a terrible comparison. Current Natsu would fodderize the hell out of Beginning of Dragon Ball Goku.

Not even going to touch that.

You're so biased it's not even funny.

So I'm biased for pointing out something that happened in the manga?

And this is why no one takes you seriously.

yeah so earthland is = the earth yet there is a country 10 times bigger to Fiore, Fiore being as big as North America. And Fiore being in Ishgar and Ishgar being a continent which is as big as the pangea or bigger...

So because certain landmasses are larger, according to you, that suddenly means the humans are more durable and have better heat resistance feats than humans in the real world.

Jesus, this is getting embarrassing....

tell me where I inflated a feat

• Claimed Sarada from Naruto was town level with her punches.
• Claimed Irene can move at relativistic speeds.
• Claimed Bradman/Bloodman's magical particle body was "omnipotent".
• Claimed Natsu's "melting of the stadium" feat is town level.

Need more?

I applied a certain feat to a character because I felt like it

• Tried to pass off every single Spriggan as hypersonic, despite only a few of them even having speed feats.
• Claiming August's beam was light speed.
• Claiming Irene was on/near the level of Kaguya.
• Claiming anyone in Fairy Tail can see through an illusion because Laxus did early in the series.

Need more?

I didn't want to debate using a character's feats because bla bla bla

You don't want to admit Doffy is faster than Natsu because Natsu doesn't have current speed feats, while ignoring his past one because they are "in the past".

But he does. Just not enough to determine how fast he's become but definetely faster than his pre-ts self. Yet you say his pre-ts feats still stand because there are not enough to prove he's improved... well haha

You don't get to use non-existent feats to try and claim he is the same speed as Doffy. It doesn't matter if he should be faster than his earlier version. Until he has the feats, you use what he has.

I don't wanna attempt to educate you because I'd sound arrogant, and I'm not a physicist, but even I know speed and strength are tightly correlated

Except the only strength that has increased in Natsu is his striking, not his overall strength.

Prove to me that someone's striking strength correlates to someone's travel and combat speed.

Not impressive to you because you're not gonna concede as you're too biased. Show me scans of Doflamingo's speed, please, still waiting.

It's not impressive because it's not impressive. Calling me biased just because you can't provide a decent speed showing only further proves how terrible you are at this thing called debating.

And Doffy reacted to Sanji easily and a meteor that was teleported right in front of him:

Doflamingo slices up a meteorite before it impacted. Caesar Clown noted this series of events happened in an instant/blink of an eye. Denoting Doflamingo's combat speed, operating in a brief frame of time.

Using science to approximate the meteorite's speed (Link) expands on how impressive this feat is.

Gallery

Credit to Mr_Ingenuity.

Kizaru kicks faster and his leg doesn't set on fire. Natsu is faster and he doesn't set on fire using his fastest move. Try again.

I'm not talking about kick speed, I'm talking about moving his legs fast enough to catch them on fire.

And the fact that Natsu doesn't set his limbs on fire due to just speed and not his magic already proves he's not faster.

Try again.

Also I think we should be ending this nonsense.

We should have ended it two replies ago, but you couldn't resist the urge to embarrass yourself further.

You're arguing because you don't like me

No I'm arguing because

A) You thought I was relying to you when I clearly wasn't.

B) You keep making false claims and acting hypocritical.

C) You keep replying to me.

and I can't prove you wrong yet you can but I don't concede so it gets tiresome u.u.

I completely agree. It's time you stopped replying.

Yes.

@thevivas:

- You're utterly wrong, if you're not knowledgeable of the FT verse why do you even try? No spriggan (except Irene and August) could low or mid diff another one, they would all high-extreme diff. Whereas Mihawk null diffs buggy, Doflamingo low diffs Moria, etc. Actually the Shichibukai is more about influence than power. The spriggan is a selection of top-notch mages especially formed to win a war.

- If the stadium is 1 km in diameter there are towns of that size. Try again.

- "This attempt is pretty pitiful, actually." No it's not, you're totally wrong. There are rear admirals, commodores and even captains knowledgeable of Rokushiki. The spriggan are not over the place, they all have decent fighting scenes. It's your problem if you're not capable of identifying a gag scene when Cana knocked Brandish down. Also it was the sandstorm allergy what did most of the job but OK.

- "There's defined levels, yes." No, you're wrong. Since you don't like calcs, then all soru users should be as fast. They're obviously not. But Tashigi is a captain and can use Soru. Why is she not promoted to commodore, rear admiral or vice admiral? Also, the "threshold" for vice-admiral is more haki than rokushiki. So you're not so knowledgeable of OP as you believe you are. For example, Smoker can use haki as a vice-admiral, but not as a commodore.

- "Um yes, there is.

Shichibukai also has other factors, but all the Yonko are above Shichibukai level." Not necessarily, as the weakest yonko may well be below Mihawk. Also, what's the threshold for being a shichi? Since Buggy is weakass and he is. You're just wrong admit it.

- "And now you're clearly making up stats again to further suit your needs. Ajeel could tank an attack from Jupiter, yet Brandish was KO'd by a karate chop." - Hmmm... again, you can't discern gag scenes.

- "What is there to be split on? Neinhart was beaten by Jellal's Grand Chariot, whereas the members of Oracion Seis needed that and his Sema to be taken out, iirc." Post-skip Grand Chariot was placed to be as strong as Laxus' red lightning after it defeated a spriggan, because we have nothing to account for GC's growth rate from pre-skip level to post-skip levels so it may well have become an insanely more powerful attack. But we do know all spriggans but August and Irene were put on the same sack in terms of physicals/abilities. Implying no spriggan could beat another one without high-extreme difficulty.

You comparing pre-timeskip to post-timeskip attacks/feats tells me you don't understand much about FT.

- "What makes a speed feat impressive? Are you serious?

The distance that character traveled and the time (if specified) in which he/she did so, reacting to an attack with a certain speed, outspeeding another character who already has established speed feats, etc."

Ok so it seems you can actually analyze the factors to decide whether a speed feat is good or bad. Then tell me how FT speed showings are bad. Compare it to Doflamingo.

- "Unlike you, I don't make up "facts" to fill in the blanks for slightly vague scans."

How old are you? That was long ago and in some other post, I already admitted I was wrong. Grow up and move on!

- "You claimed "He was hurt by a hotter fire", which is false, already proven by the manga when Akainu said his magma is superior, not hotter."

Lol lol lol xDDD ok I'll try to take that serious: Akainu is moreorless = Aokiji. Ace could fight Aokiji's ice but he couldn't fight Akainu's lava. Actually it was even stated that "Akainu's lava could burn Ace's fire". Oh but Aokiji's ice couldn't outperform him. Yes I have proven you wrong.

- "why can't he eat a person's body heat? Why can't he just run his hands and eat the heat caused by that?"

This is plainly ridiculous. What's your threshold of heat? He powers up from heat equal to the temperature of fire which is 1000+ ºC. Do you want to absorb and power up from a person's body heat which is 36ºC? If you have no counterarguments don't say ridiculous things it only makes you look less knowledgeable! :(

- "So because other people to something just as stupid, that makes your comparison less stupid?"

You're just demonstrating who's the stupid one here. Like BoS Goku cannot be compared to the naruto verse, OP verse or FT verse. You're saying ridiculous things.

- "And this is why no one takes you seriously."

Who doesn't take me seriously? Hehe awww poor child. Also, like I care...

- "So because certain landmasses are larger, according to you, that suddenly means the humans are more durable and have better heat resistance feats than humans in the real world."

Right, if the gravity of a world is higher than the gravity in the earth, say, and earthland's gravity was calced at being 60x the earth's, then you necessarily mean to be stronger.

- When I said "tell me where I inflated a feat..." I said in this post. I actually bolded and underlined it so that you looked at it. It lets me know a lot about your observation skills. You just read what suits you. Also you just write what suits you :P

- "ou don't want to admit Doffy is faster than Natsu because Natsu doesn't have current speed feats, while ignoring his past one because they are "in the past"." - You haven't proven to me that Dofla is faster by bringing up any scan that proves so :( I, on the other hand, have given you prove of how fast Natsu has become... Try harder.

- "You don't get to use non-existent feats to try and claim he is the same speed as Doffy. It doesn't matter if he should be faster than his earlier version. Until he has the feats, you use what he has." Yes you get to guess. For example, we don't know how fast Shanks is but we do know he's probably faster than Doflamingo. But I wasn't even using non-existent feats.

- "Except the only strength that has increased in Natsu is his striking, not his overall strength." - I repeat myself: "I don't wanna attempt to educate you because I'd sound arrogant, and I'm not a physicist, but even I know speed and strength are tightly correlated". When you strike harder but the mass of your arm is still the same, it's because you strike FASTER.

- Thanks for providing the Doflamingo speed feat. Actually the meteorite feat is pretty good to demosntrate Doflamingo is faster. So I'm gonna concede here :D I never said Natsu is faster I just said I wanted to see Doflamingo's speed.

Jellal can cast "sema", which is also a meteorite (calcs here: http://www.millenniumforums.com/showthread.php?35270-Jellal-s-Meteor). Also this meteorite is way bigger than Ishoo's. It's likely that high tier characters in FT can dodge it by now.

- "I'm not talking about kick speed, I'm talking about moving his legs fast enough to catch them on fire." but by that token, anyone who moved at Sanji's speed or superior would get his limbs on fire. "And the fact that Natsu doesn't set his limbs on fire due to just speed and not his magic already proves he's not faster." What? xD Neither do OP characters who move much faster than Sanji, neither do Naruto characters who mov emuch faster than Sanji, etc.

I'm not gonna reply anymore after that.

@chaarrrt:

You're utterly wrong, if you're not knowledgeable of the FT verse why do you even try?

I've been thinking the exact same thing about you ever since you joined this site, tbh.

No spriggan (except Irene and August) could low or mid diff another one, they would all high-extreme diff.

Oh really? Then what's anyone's counter for Dimaria's Time Stop?

What's Brandish's counter for Ajeel's Sand World again?

What's anyone's counter for Jacob's teleporting?

Just because you think they can't easily defeat each other with their "hax", doesn't mean there is a Spriggan tier. Your arguments are becoming more and more atrocious.

Whereas Mihawk null diffs buggy, Doflamingo low diffs Moria, etc.

So what?

You're gonna try to lowball One Piece characters than cry "oh gag scene!!" every time Brandish gets thrown in your face?

Pitiful.

Actually the Shichibukai is more about influence than power.

It's influence and power. Which doesn't even contradict what I said.

If the stadium is 1 km in diameter there are towns of that size. Try again

Oh, now we're using "if"? Could have sworn you said it was stated in the manga? Funny how you have yet to provide any evidence of that.

There are rear admirals, commodores and even captains knowledgeable of Rokushiki.

Yes, but it's not just the techniques themselves that elevate you to Vice Admiral. Coby knows Soru yet isn't even close to Vice Admiral level. You need to know them and be past a certain level of strength. It's like you actually chose to ignore everything I've said just to try and "prove me wrong".

And just like I thought, you actually aren't versed in One Piece. Like, at all.

The spriggan are not over the place, they all have decent fighting scenes. It's your problem if you're not capable of identifying a gag scene when Cana knocked Brandish down. Also it was the sandstorm allergy what did most of the job but OK.

They are all over the place. Denying it when the manga clearly shows this just further proves your own bias.

And so allergies suddenly lowers someone's durability? Fascinating.

Since you don't like calcs, then all soru users should be as fast. They're obviously not.

Of course they're obviously not. That's the dumbest line of logic I've seen. It's an ability, you need to practice it and make it better just like any other ability.

But Tashigi is a captain and can use Soru. Why is she not promoted to commodore, rear admiral or vice admiral? Also, the "threshold" for vice-admiral is more haki than rokushiki. So you're not so knowledgeable of OP as you believe you are. For example, Smoker can use haki as a vice-admiral, but not as a commodore.

Rokushiki isn't the only thing that you need to be an Admiral or Vice Admiral. The fact that you actually had to ask that only proves that you have no idea what you're talking about.

And no shit Vice Admirals need Haki, nearly everyone in the New World needs it, or anyone strong enough to travel the New World needs it.

Not necessarily, as the weakest yonko may well be below Mihawk.

They're clearly not.

Also, what's the threshold for being a shichi? Since Buggy is weakass and he is. You're just wrong admit it.

Your debating is laughable at this point, honestly. You're literally asking questions that I've already answered, but because you read them wrong or didn't like the answer, you still ask them.

And I'll admit I'm wrong when I'm wrong or when you have proven me wrong; I'm not and you haven't.

Hmmm... again, you can't discern gag scenes.

So now you get to decide that her only durability feat is a gag scene and you also get to decide that she has the same durability as every other Spriggan, who all have different levels of durability?

Terrible debating is terrible debating.

Post-skip Grand Chariot was placed to be as strong as Laxus' red lightning after it defeated a spriggan, because we have nothing to account for GC's growth rate from pre-skip level to post-skip levels so it may well have become an insanely more powerful attack. But we do know all spriggans but August and Irene were put on the same sack in terms of physicals/abilities. Implying no spriggan could beat another one without high-extreme difficulty.

And here we go again, applying your own stats and power levels to characters and attacks because you feel like it.

Just stop.

You comparing pre-timeskip to post-timeskip attacks/feats tells me you don't understand much about FT.

I compared a post-timeskip Grand Chariot to another post-timeskip Grand Chariot.

Try reading the manga, and maybe you'll realize that.

Then tell me how FT speed showings are bad. Compare it to Doflamingo.

They're bad because a majority of people in Fairy Tail don't have their own speed feats to gauge how fast they are, which makes it impossible to claim that blitzing said person is impressive.

One Piece doesn't have that problem.

How old are you? That was long ago and in some other post, I already admitted I was wrong. Grow up and move on!

Old enough to realize that you are terrible at debating.

And doesn't matter if it was a long time ago if you resort to the exact same thing in this thread. What, a week later you're gonna come back and say "Hey I was wrong!" like you did in the other threads?

Akainu is moreorless = Aokiji. Ace could fight Aokiji's ice but he couldn't fight Akainu's lava

Because Ice isn't superior to Fire.

Actually it was even stated that "Akainu's lava could burn Ace's fire"

Because it's "superior" to his fire.

Do you really need me to hold your hand and walk you through this?

Oh but Aokiji's ice couldn't outperform him. Yes I have proven you wrong.

No you haven't. You've used probably the worst attempt at ABC logic to prove it, and it failed miserably.

This is plainly ridiculous. What's your threshold of heat? He powers up from heat equal to the temperature of fire which is 1000+ ºC. Do you want to absorb and power up from a person's body heat which is 36ºC? If you have no counterarguments don't say ridiculous things it only makes you look less knowledgeable! :(

So now his power isn't that he eats "fire", it's that he eats anything with a temperature above that of Fire? So I guess the manga calling him a "Fire Dragon Slayer" was wrong, what they actually meant was "Temperature above 1000+ degrees Dragon Slayer"?

I honestly felt my brain cells dying after reading that.

You're just demonstrating who's the stupid one here. Like BoS Goku cannot be compared to the naruto verse, OP verse or FT verse. You're saying ridiculous things.

No, you're trying to use the "well other people say things like that so it's okay" argument to say that your stupid comparison isn't stupid.

It is.

Who doesn't take me seriously? Hehe awww poor child. Also, like I care...

Everyone who frequents the same threads as you do.

Right, if the gravity of a world is higher than the gravity in the earth, say, and earthland's gravity was calced at being 60x the earth's, then you necessarily mean to be stronger.

Bigger landmasses =/= bigger planet. Pangea was a bigger landmass than anything on our planet now, you wanna tell me now that the Earth shrunk since back then?

Unless you can show us a size of their planet next to ours, you're just grasping at straws.

I actually bolded and underlined it so that you looked at it. It lets me know a lot about your observation skills. You just read what suits you. Also you just write what suits you

I know you bolded "in this thread", because even you know your own terrible track record.

That's not my fault. And the funny thing is I did provide examples of your piss poor debating in this thread, which you read over cause it "suits you".

You haven't proven to me that Dofla is faster by bringing up any scan that proves so :( I, on the other hand, have given you prove of how fast Natsu has become... Try harder.

1) I did. It's kind of embarrassing that you say that, and then concede to Doffy being faster all in the same reply.

2) You haven't proved how fast Natsu has become. Give me a break.

Yes you get to guess. For example, we don't know how fast Shanks is but we do know he's probably faster than Doflamingo. But I wasn't even using non-existent feats.

No, we can make an "educated guess" that is because he's a Yonko and was able to fight with Mihawk evenly in the past.

You just make guesses because you want to, without actually using anything akin to "reason" or "logic".

but even I know speed and strength are tightly correlated". When you strike harder but the mass of your arm is still the same, it's because you strike FASTER

That's fine and dandy, except Natsu's punches clearly aren't faster than they used to be.

Try again.

Thanks for providing the Doflamingo speed feat. Actually the meteorite feat is pretty good to demosntrate Doflamingo is faster. So I'm gonna concede here :D I never said Natsu is faster I just said I wanted to see Doflamingo's speed.

How can you even claim that you have read/watched One Piece and not know about this feat?

Jellal can cast "sema", which is also a meteorite (calcs here: http://www.millenniumforums.com/showthread.php?35270-Jellal-s-Meteor). Also this meteorite is way bigger than Ishoo's. It's likely that high tier characters in FT can dodge it by now.

That meteor is not bigger than Fujitora's. Anyone looking at it's crater could tell.

but by that token, anyone who moved at Sanji's speed or superior would get his limbs on fire

No, he's just moving his legs, not his entire body. That's kinda the reason only his legs catch fire.

What? xD Neither do OP characters who move much faster than Sanji, neither do Naruto characters who mov emuch faster than Sanji, etc.

Because they're not moving just their legs.

It's like I'm talking to a 3 year old, Jesus Christ.

I'm not gonna reply anymore after that.

It's about damn time. You've embarrassed yourself enough in this thread, what with resorting back to your old "inflating habits" and demonstrating you have almost no knowledge on One Piece whatsoever.

So going back on-topic:

- Doffy has feats to account for his speed, whereas Natsu blitzed Zeref but we've got nothing to compare Zeref to. Making an educated guess, though, Natsu's speed could be compared to Doffy's, and not be too far off.

- Even if I were wrong (and I'm most probably not), being speed equalized, then, this is a non-factor. So we're back to strength and durability. And to abilities of course. Natsu would definetely hurt Doflamingo with his heat and attacks. However it's hard to account for his durability. Natsu's always been rather durable. But these are two different verses.

- IMO, the one with more durability wins. Dofla is gonna tank and get hurt but still withstand a few attacks from Luffy; Luffy will just burn minor attacks and have to tank haki-imbued ones which are definetely gonna hurt him too.

I'd like to wait until Natsu fights a major character in this arc, then we can properly speak.

Doffy manhandles literally outclasses Natsu in everything.

Doffy mid diff ......with Parasite low diff