Namor and She Hulk vs Wonder Man and The Thing
I'm with Vance on this one, for me, the deciding factor is that the fight takes place near the ocean. Thing still needs breath right? He is too heavy to float or quickly make his way out of the water. If Namor gets him in the water and She-Hulk and Namor team up against Wonder man it's over.
But that's a lot of 'if's'. It could go either way, but i'm going for team one.
"I'm with Vance on this one, for me, the deciding factor is that the fight takes place near the ocean. Thing still needs breath right? He is too heavy to float or quickly make his way out of the water. If Namor gets him in the water and She-Hulk and Namor team up against Wonder man it's over.As Namor can fly it would make more sense for Wonderman, who can also fly, to take him on.
But that's a lot of 'if's'. It could go either way, but i'm going for team one."
Wonderman does not need to breath either.
The deciding factor for me here is..Namor and She-Hulk are the most skilled and most intelligent in this fight.Jen is far smarter than them all but Namor fairly smart.Not to say that Simon and Grimm are particularly stupid but more times than not She-Hulk and Namor have been shown to outsmart people...and Jen has been shown to use different combat techniques she learned..and The Thing and Wonder Man basically just pound on people until they fall.
"The Thing and Wonder Man basically just pound on people until they fall."From the entry for the Thing from the OHTMU,
Abilities: The Thing is a brilliant pilot of aircraft. He has had a great deal of experience at hand-to-hand combat, and was a formidable opponent in physical combat even before becoming the Thing.
Now from the Marvel Universe site,"He is uniquely gifted in the art of hand-to-hand combat (a skill Ben honed long before he became the Thing), though his fighting style tends to be a rather loose brawling technique all his own."
The Thing is an exceptional hand to hand fighter. He began his training in the Air Force and fighting along Marines. This great skill is one reason that he could engage the Champion of the Universe all that time ago in hand to hand combat. It is also a reason that he can still fight an angry Hulk even though the Hulk is a lot stronger. His fighting prowess is exceptional.
As for Wonderman nhe has improved his fighting skills. Does he still hit things mostly till theyr drop ? it mostly appears so but he is still a very experienced hand to hand fighter.
Of the 4, I think only Namor would equal the Thing in combat ability. She Hulk and Wonderman are both less skilled.
"Vance Astro said:Creator..You and I both know Ben Grimm isn't as smart as She-Hulk or Namor..In fact he doesn't even seem to be smarter than Johnny Storm.She-Hulk has outsmarted Iron Man on occasion."The Thing and Wonder Man basically just pound on people until they fall."From the entry for the Thing from the OHTMU,Abilities: The Thing is a brilliant pilot of aircraft. He has had a great deal of experience at hand-to-hand combat, and was a formidable opponent in physical combat even before becoming the Thing.
Now from the Marvel Universe site,
"He is uniquely gifted in the art of hand-to-hand combat (a skill Ben honed long before he became the Thing), though his fighting style tends to be a rather loose brawling technique all his own."
The Thing is an exceptional hand to hand fighter. He began his training in the Air Force and fighting along Marines. This great skill is one reason that he could engage the Champion of the Universe all that time ago in hand to hand combat. It is also a reason that he can still fight an angry Hulk even though the Hulk is a lot stronger. His fighting prowess is exceptional.
As for Wonderman nhe has improved his fighting skills. Does he still hit things mostly till theyr drop ? it mostly appears so but he is still a very experienced hand to hand fighter.
Of the 4, I think only Namor would equal the Thing in combat ability. She Hulk and Wonderman are both less skilled.
"
"Vance Astro said:1.When I say She-Hulk is smart I mean in combat.I have never seen The Thing have any sort of battle strategy...All he does is say..It's clobbering time and then he punches the target.When She-Hulk fought Absorbing Man..instead of just pounding on she tricked him causing him to absorb water and take away his own solid form.Creator..You and I both know Ben Grimm isn't as smart as She-Hulk or Namor..In fact he doesn't even seem to be smarter than Johnny Storm.She-Hulk has outsmarted Iron Man on occasion.Being smart does not mean to say that you will always win in a battle scenario. Many smart people fail in battle because they over analyse a situation.
Street smarts and battle experience can be more important.Ben Grimm is also not uniquely gifted at anything even if the handbook says so...when was the last time you seen him in a fight and he did something other than grapple or punch?The same can be said for most powerhouse characters. Very rarely do they actually get to show hand to hand fighting in their superhuman forms.
My quotes were simply to show that making a case for 1 character does not present all the facts for both sides of thre argument.The Thing broke the Champions ribs and then got man-handledHe stood toe to toe with the Champion and held his own for a while. He keep coming back against a far stronger, more durable, faster reaction and better trained opponent.
Yes he got beat but the Champion said that he was the wothiest adversary he had encountered in a long time.
This was also at a time when the Champion was portrayed as he was inteded to be, as a genius fighter who has studied all the fighting techniques from across many galaxies and was thus quite probably the best fighter alive.
Here's the info on him from that time,Strength Level: The limits of the Champion's strength are not known. In Earth's gravity, he can lift (press) at least 100 tons. His strength derives from the channeling of cosmic energy for physical use.
Known Superhuman Powers: The Champion controls the power primordial, the energy derived from the Big Bang itself. He has channeled this power into the development of his physical form: his musculature, his reflexes, his stamina, and his strength, while the exercise of human strength taps electro-chemical energies of the complex molecules in the body, the Champion's strength taps cosmic nuclear energies. His physical strength is only determined by the amount of cosmic energy his finite form can contain. This limit has yet to be seen. He apparently never tires since his body has the ability to tap whatever energies it needs to recuperate. He cannot be hurt by any means short of molecular dispersion. Having channeled all of the cosmic energy as his command into making his body a perfect fighting machine, the Champion can no longer direct that energy from his body into force-blast as many other energy manipulators can.
Abilities: The Champion has mastered untold thousands of different martial arts and fighting styles culled from across the known Universe, and spends the majority of his time between championship matches practicing these arts.
..She-Hulk actually beat the Champion...and was trained by Gamora who I believe is the best female fighter in Marvel.She Hulk beat the Champion when he was beuing portrayed more as a bully, who gets angry and slips up, rather than the controlled sensei fighter he began life as.
She Hulk had also trained heavy for this fight to amplify her strength (in her human form).
Apparently most of this extra strength in her human form has now been lost so it may be that he strength as She Hulk is not at the peak that it had been.
Again, although she has recieved training from an exceptional fighter, she does not show it all the time in her fights, but usually only when needed.Wonderman isn't the worst h2h fighter but he's not as good as She-Hulk or Namor...both have alot more battle experience and trainingThen in these 4, who is worse ?And the Thing was fighting exceptional hand to hand fighters like Thundra before Jenifer even finished Law school (and so long before she becam She Hulk).
Wondermna can also claim to have been on the same team as Capt America and so is likely to have had some training but he does not really use it in combat. Perhaps it is because he did not have these fighting skills prior to becoming Superhuman and so he has never really had any need to put those skills to use. The Thing has on many occasions reverting to human form - to make use of his skills and as a member of the airforce had many times engaged in hand to hand fighting using boxing, wrestling and some martial arts.She-Hulk,The Thing,and Namor I believe in the handbook are all classified level 4 which means they have some type of skill but they aren't really masters of anything which is true...She-Hulk isn't a master of any martial art and neither is Namor or the ThingWhy should the source you just quoted (OHOTMU power grids) be able more realistsic than the oness I quoted.
Both could be considered subjective...however..She-Hulk has shown her combat skill time and time again actually using nerve attacks,her agility,some speed and different types of kicks and punches all in unison with her intellect.Namor has alot of military experience and experience with fighting superhumans from being and Invader..he's also the oldest person here so I think all those years of fighting would have given him an edge in experience.Not to mention She-Hulk is the strongest here.
Just because writers and artists did not draw the Thing +displaying fancy blocks and the like does not mean that he does not use advanced fighting skills. Just look at the trail of villians in his wake to see how successful he has been.
The Thing has a lot of military experience as well, more than anyone else apart from Namor.
Namor is likely the best fighter here, but I think the Thing is second.
As for She-Hulk being the strongest, Wonderman might challenge her there."
"Vance Astro said:No it doesn't...Spider-Man dodges bullets..he can move faster than the bullet can get to him but he's not faster than the bullet.".Against Iron Man she has shown that she can dodge punches from people with superior speed and reaction time."That's kind of an oxymoron, Vance. If she can dodge them that means she is faster than people who are faster than her...
WTF???"
@The Creator
"AtPhantom said:Yeah, but the definition of being faster and having faster reflexes is that you can dodge people slower than you, but that you can hit them."Vance Astro said:No it doesn't...Spider-Man dodges bullets..he can move faster than the bullet can get to him but he's not faster than the bullet."".Against Iron Man she has shown that she can dodge punches from people with superior speed and reaction time."That's kind of an oxymoron, Vance. If she can dodge them that means she is faster than people who are faster than her...
WTF???"
"Vance Astro said:True but even though She-Hulk is slower than these people she is still able to dodge them.As seen above..,the Whizzer who moves at mach speeds was unable to hit She-Hulk..she dodged causing him to run into a tree.My point is that even though someone may be faster than you..you could possibly dodge a punch or two."AtPhantom said:Yeah, but the definition of being faster and having faster reflexes is that you can dodge people slower than you, but that you can hit them.""Vance Astro said:No it doesn't...Spider-Man dodges bullets..he can move faster than the bullet can get to him but he's not faster than the bullet."".Against Iron Man she has shown that she can dodge punches from people with superior speed and reaction time."That's kind of an oxymoron, Vance. If she can dodge them that means she is faster than people who are faster than her...
WTF???"
" "
Image 1: That's a good example of Jen using her martial arts skills. As you have already mentioned, Ben Grimm has also been shown to use more advanced hand to hand skills in his human form (than simply hitting someone). Has Jen ever used such advanced combat skills in her She-Hulk form other than the example below (Image 5) ?
Image 2: Judging by the look of Drax and his and She-Hulk's costume, that would seem to be the 1st incanation of Drax. This Drax was only rated at 50 tonnes. She-Hulk at the time was rated at 75 tonnes. Therefore it shows little apart from she could 'punch' her opponent.
Image 3: Firstly her beating the Champion in such a manner is absurd. He knows more about hand to hand fighting techniques that any other living being, which includes Gamora and Capt America. He has studied thousands upon thousands of fighting styles from across the known galaxy and mastered them all. Secondly, he actually has a far faster reaction time than her and superior agility and yet we see him not being able to block her blows - totally absurd. Thirdly since he is virtually indestructible, I really don't see hurting him much - but he is shown completely bloodied. Finally we again see that she has put on massive amounts of muscle mass (her arms are significantly bigger). Since her return to earth, she appears to have shed this extra muscle mass (her arms are slimmer now). As the basis for her ramp in strength for this fight was to put on additional muscle mass in her human form, so it would be multiplied in her superhuman form, the loss of this mass should therefore logically signify that she is not as strong as she was at the time of this comic.
Image 4: As you said, She-Hulk flips over the Abomination. A nice example of her atheletic prowess and agility.However this was against a large lumbering brute and the Abomination's comment, "After all you nare no Hulk" was clearly showing his overconfidence. He was expecting her to simply go in punching. This illurstrates the point I tried to make with regards to her fighting skills. In reality she would use them most of the time as it would enable quicker takedowns of her opponents. She does not for the simple reason of the writer. I think the smae argument can be made for the Thing. He has been stereotyped quite a bit as a 'Bruiser'. You yourself said that all he does is shout "It's Clobbering Time !" and wade in when he has so much more available.
Image 5: Good example of She-Hulk using her learned combat skills. However, it seemed to do little to the Abomination (unlike the fight in Image 1).
Image 6: A nice example of She-Hulk using a weapon from the local environment. However the Thing has also used weapons in a similar manner that include I-beams, cars and a tarmac and concrete road (whipping it to hit his foe who was flying).
Image 7: I know that She-Hulk is stronger than the Thing. I would argue with the fact that she can now hold the same weight as the Thing with just 1 arm though.
Image 8: As for beating Hercules at arm wrestling - I put that one right up there with beating the Champion at boxing - as absurd. Hercules is one of the strongest beings in Marvel (who is not a galactic cosmic entity) who can accomplish feats of strength that most others would have no hope of achieving. Was Hercules really trying (to be honest) ?
Image 9: The Whizzer was meant o be one of the slower Marvel's speedsters. Here's some info on him in his prime,
"His bones contained unknown materials significantly more durable than calcium to withstand the dynamic shocks of his feet touching the ground at speeds of up to 100 miles per hour.
The Whizzer's practical reaction time was about four times faster than an ordinary human being's when the Whizzer was in his prime, and the speed at which his brain processed information was heightened to a level commensurate with his bodily speed."
Looking closely at the picture, the Whizzer seems to be focussing his attention away from She-Hulk and more to his left (as he sees it) to target the goons. She made an innocent move and left her foor out, in his running path. His diverted attention mean he simply tripped himself up or that is my interpretation.
@ The Creator
Champion felt that the Thing was worthy because he wouldn't give up, not because of his strength because he was beating him easily.
She-Hulk should never be able to beat the Champion. His power is similar to the Hulk as he gets stronger.
"I always thought he thought the Thing was worthy for damaging his ribs...either way he got owned."12.The Champion found the Thing to be a worth adversary but She-Hulk beat him.....The only reason the Champion thought him worth is because of his strength.She-Hulk hasn't fought Thundra to my knowledge but I am sure she would have beaten her too.She punched Titania to another state whom just recently reached the level of class 100.""
Champion felt that the Thing was worthy because he wouldn't give up, not because of his strength because he was beating him easily.
She-Hulk should never be able to beat the Champion. His power is similar to the Hulk as he gets stronger.
"Alpha said:Who beat him? I know he fought Thanos, who didn't beat him. He just tricked him to becoming careless to steal the Power gem."I always thought he thought the Thing was worthy for damaging his ribs...either way he got owned."12.The Champion found the Thing to be a worth adversary but She-Hulk beat him.....The only reason the Champion thought him worth is because of his strength.She-Hulk hasn't fought Thundra to my knowledge but I am sure she would have beaten her too.She punched Titania to another state whom just recently reached the level of class 100.""
Champion felt that the Thing was worthy because he wouldn't give up, not because of his strength because he was beating him easily.
She-Hulk should never be able to beat the Champion. His power is similar to the Hulk as he gets stronger.I believe She-Hulk could beat the Champion realistically..two people far weaker than her have beat him with strength and h2h combat alone."
I'm asking because I only know of him from the fight with Thanos and The Battle of Champions series.
As far as She-Hulk, she is stronger than Namor and the Thing in my opinion. Wonderman I feel is equal. But her team should win.
"Vance Astro said:Adam Warlock beat him in one punch and Ronan stomped him in the ground.Thanos beat him but he was basically using The Champion's stupidity against him."Alpha said:Who beat him? I know he fought Thanos, who didn't beat him. He just tricked him to becoming careless to steal the Power gem."I always thought he thought the Thing was worthy for damaging his ribs...either way he got owned."12.The Champion found the Thing to be a worth adversary but She-Hulk beat him.....The only reason the Champion thought him worth is because of his strength.She-Hulk hasn't fought Thundra to my knowledge but I am sure she would have beaten her too.She punched Titania to another state whom just recently reached the level of class 100.""
Champion felt that the Thing was worthy because he wouldn't give up, not because of his strength because he was beating him easily.
She-Hulk should never be able to beat the Champion. His power is similar to the Hulk as he gets stronger.I believe She-Hulk could beat the Champion realistically..two people far weaker than her have beat him with strength and h2h combat alone."
I'm asking because I only know of him from the fight with Thanos and The Battle of Champions series.
As far as She-Hulk, she is stronger than Namor and the Thing in my opinion. Wonderman I feel is equal. But her team should win."
"Alpha said:I have to admit that I haven't seen She-Hulk beat anyone (outside her silly book) of real power. Wonderman nearly beat the entire Avengers team that included Thor when he was a weaker character (90 tons) and couldn't fly. He also beat Namor (who just emerged from the ocean) when he was weaker."Vance Astro said:Adam Warlock beat him in one punch and Ronan stomped him in the ground.Thanos beat him but he was basically using The Champion's stupidity against him."Alpha said:Who beat him? I know he fought Thanos, who didn't beat him. He just tricked him to becoming careless to steal the Power gem."I always thought he thought the Thing was worthy for damaging his ribs...either way he got owned."12.The Champion found the Thing to be a worth adversary but She-Hulk beat him.....The only reason the Champion thought him worth is because of his strength.She-Hulk hasn't fought Thundra to my knowledge but I am sure she would have beaten her too.She punched Titania to another state whom just recently reached the level of class 100.""
Champion felt that the Thing was worthy because he wouldn't give up, not because of his strength because he was beating him easily.
She-Hulk should never be able to beat the Champion. His power is similar to the Hulk as he gets stronger.I believe She-Hulk could beat the Champion realistically..two people far weaker than her have beat him with strength and h2h combat alone."
I'm asking because I only know of him from the fight with Thanos and The Battle of Champions series.
As far as She-Hulk, she is stronger than Namor and the Thing in my opinion. Wonderman I feel is equal. But her team should win."She-Hulk has shown feats far above anything Wonder Man has ever done."
Thanks for the info on Champion.
"Vance Astro said:Outside She-Hulk's book she hasn't beaten Namor several times,She has beaten Dionysus the god of wine who is fairly strong for a god of something so lame,She has knocked down the 60 ton living Monolith in Avengers,She has beaten Absorbing Man and Titania at the same time in Heroes for Hire,She has not formally beaten Thor but she did beat Thunderstrike with no problem."Alpha said:I have to admit that I haven't seen She-Hulk beat anyone (outside her silly book) of real power. Wonderman nearly beat the entire Avengers team that included Thor when he was a weaker character (90 tons) and couldn't fly. He also beat Namor (who just emerged from the ocean) when he was weaker."Vance Astro said:Adam Warlock beat him in one punch and Ronan stomped him in the ground.Thanos beat him but he was basically using The Champion's stupidity against him."Alpha said:Who beat him? I know he fought Thanos, who didn't beat him. He just tricked him to becoming careless to steal the Power gem."I always thought he thought the Thing was worthy for damaging his ribs...either way he got owned."12.The Champion found the Thing to be a worth adversary but She-Hulk beat him.....The only reason the Champion thought him worth is because of his strength.She-Hulk hasn't fought Thundra to my knowledge but I am sure she would have beaten her too.She punched Titania to another state whom just recently reached the level of class 100.""
Champion felt that the Thing was worthy because he wouldn't give up, not because of his strength because he was beating him easily.
She-Hulk should never be able to beat the Champion. His power is similar to the Hulk as he gets stronger.I believe She-Hulk could beat the Champion realistically..two people far weaker than her have beat him with strength and h2h combat alone."
I'm asking because I only know of him from the fight with Thanos and The Battle of Champions series.
As far as She-Hulk, she is stronger than Namor and the Thing in my opinion. Wonderman I feel is equal. But her team should win."She-Hulk has shown feats far above anything Wonder Man has ever done."
Thanks for the info on Champion."
@The Creator
Simon is the most powerful character in this fight. Ben has the most heart and fighting spirit of anyone in Marvel comics.
Wonder Man and Ben can win, consistently, if Ben can stay out the water. If it turns into a 2-on-1 against Wonder Man, then it's over for team #2
Good fight, edge to Shulkie and Namor partly because Wondy is a pacifist and because they might have a slight edge in power. All of the claims about Jen’s power further up are EXTREMELY dodgy though - she was massively enhanced at the time of armwrestling Herc and lifting Ben’s max weight one-handed. In the same comic where she knocked Thor around, she was shown to be be way out of his league in strength and could only hold him for a few seconds. Jen starts off on Thing’s level, probably even a touch below but can increase her strength with rage. Wondy is the strongest guy here, although Namor’s had some crazy showings under Jason Aaron
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