Most Powerful Demon? Chthon vs Set vs Shuma-Gorath vs Zom

Seriously, unless I'm missing something, these guys seem to be the creme de la creme of satanic powers in Marvel.

Question is, who's the top dog of demons in the Marvel Universe?

We all know Chthon is the Lord of the Darkhold (a cornerstone of creation), a book of black magic that rivals the Book of the Vishanti in power. Eternity hinted that left unchecked in this universe, he'd pose a deadly and real threat to him.

Set, is a beast now. In the Marvel Arcana and Marvel Tarot arcs/one shots, it seems like he's the most powerful of the Elders (Chthon, Gaea, Oshtur, Set). The Father of the Seven Deadly Sins, the Crown of Power (one of the cornerstones of Creation) and 7 extremely power elder evils.

Shuma-Gorath has shown some kind of cool stuff too.

But out of all I'm gonna have to side with Zom.

Zom was imprisoned by a cabal of powers and principalities that included Dormammu and Eternity (back when Eternity wasn't the joke he is now). His release prompted the Living Tribunal himself to spring into action.

Who do you guys think is strongest of the four?

I'll go with Shuma, just because he's scariest

Shuma is extradimensional.

The Elder Gods are innerdimensional spirits.

Shuma > All Elder Gods Combined

Having said that, neither Set nor Chthon or both combined can beat Shuma without a means of PIS like having a helping hand by other extradimensional entities like the Vishanti.

Othur vs her siblings.

Oshur used to be an Elder God, during her story (there a comic based on her and Hory Host of Hagoth or whatever. She was alone as an elder god and transcended into an extradimensional entity becoming part of the Vishanti. So oshtur being transcended is more powerful than Gaea, Set, Chthon combined.

Shuma Gorath > Oshtur

Shuma > the Vishanti or at least equals to all of them combined.

The Vishanti > the Elder Gods

A clear win for Shuma in this battle.

What been shown combatively, it should come down to Shuma-Gorath or Zom.

Alluded power, Shuma-Gorath or Chthon.

@alberto_weskardo: Zom is also an extradimensional entity.

But I don't think I've seen anything showing that extradimensional entities automatically have more power than inner-dimensional entities. Like I don't think Shagreen the Sorcerer could honestly be considered more powerful than one of Earth's Elder Gods even though he's extra-dimensional in origin.

Forgot about Zom.

Zom is extradimensional too and is far greater than any of the Elder Gods. But he unlike Shuma was able to be contained by extradimensional PIS artifacts. In Marvel, there is no known artifact that can permanently contain Shuma because 1) Shuma siphons energy off from everything, and 2) it doesn't exist physically in our reality, but sends a metaphysical m-body to represent itself into whatever universe it enters.

Due to metaphorical feats. SHUMA > ZOM.

Zom was able to cause havok across the universe when he physically entered having fought Eternity, Dormammu, Ancient One and Dr.Strange. But Shuma was able to cause pure chaos in a universe thousands of realities away where a Dr. Strange was millions of times stronger than the one who fought Zom while just fighting an M-Body of Shuma Gorath.

Shuma Gorath

Going with Zom. In Chaos War, even Chaos King was trying to recruit him to his cause, despite on a ROFLcopter stomp of the Multiverse at the time.

This mirrors my sentiment too. I don’t think where you originate from would or should dictate how powerful you are. Every pantheons are extra dimensional in nature having been originated in a dimension other than 616 while Franklin Richard, Legion and all the omega level mutant are inner dimensional having been born on 616. By that logic every Asgardians and Olympions would be more powerful than Franklin which clearly isn’t true.

Shuma-Gorath is the most powerful.

Toss up between Chthon and Set, though I'd put my money on Set.

Zom has too few showings to say accurately. All I know is that Dormammu was able to bind Zom before Eternity sealed him away and when he did fight an inexperienced Doctor Strange, he couldn't even kill him and only got the upper hand on him after he thought wrongly that by severing the forelock Zom would automatically be defeated.

I think @asmodeus12345 could provide some thoughtful insight on this one. He seems to know a lot about general demonology in Marvel.

I think Shuma Gotath wins, then Zom IMO; also where are characters like Cyttorak, Zarathos etc...

@ordinaryalan: Agreed...

Shuma Gorath

You forget that when zom bonded with doc strange he had enough power to nearly stalemate the hulk, and at one point able to shatter hiriom's arm, a very powerful shadow who harnessed the old power, which the combined might of the avengers, fantastic four, xmen, couldn't break free from a grip it had(skaar leading to his battle with the hulk) if im not mistaken, in recent times shuma got walloped by a few of the mighty avengers..mainly the blue marvel..whos power COULD rival the Hulk....If I'm mistaken, didn't set nearly corrupt 7 of the strongest female heroes at one point to form the brides of set? and he lost? right? I got the what if..where all the females stomp and he raises hell on earth..lit fight...hulk gets double-teamed and killed by his cousin and sue richards..craycray..

@kingant27: Agreed, Cyttorak should be up there.

I didn't include Cyttorak because from his appearances he seems to be more neutral. I know in Journey into Mystery he assembled with the other demons, but there were other times where he said that he doesn't care how is fame is spread, be it good, evil, or whatever.

I only included the ones that are clearly defined as malicious deities.

@ohgawd: Oh, that makes sense.

Shuma-Gorath, as most have said. In all likelyhood Zom is next in line. Via statements about him and his feats in the limited amount of time he's been shown. Something must be said for finding a way to mask your presence from the Living Tribunal. But even that's uncertain.

More impressive, as since stated by Greg Pak, Strange was winning until the incident where he endangered people. At that time Strange focused on restraining Zom's power giving Hulk the chance to knock him out. And that was a Zomling, not the full entity. But that doesn't put him above Shuma-Gorath. As likewise, that incident with Suma-Gorath was simply likened to a fingernail scratching at the dimension looking to get in, and it still took as much plot as capturing the Zomling, to banish it.

Probably Shuma.

@ordinaryalan:

Shuma-Gorath is the most powerful, Zom have some good feats but he's also much hyped, I personally think that Set is the second most powerful.

I don't have access to my collection now, but when I do, I'm gonna clear some misconceptions about Zom and others about Set, especially him lost to Neptune.

I also only like Satannish and Mephisto as demons, and I don't acknowledge the others like Dormammu, Cyttorak, Shuma, Zom as so.

@asmodeus12345: Set would be a good contender (for second), not entirely sure though but probably shouldn't be overlooked. Based on what I know about him I might put him over Chthon if even just a little. In part due to their reactions to the Demogorge, but then that could also be a testament of ego and brashness against strategy. But both have been amping themselves since, it's really hard to tell. Chthon has the whole Darkhold and master of black and chaos magic thing. But Set has actually been shown doing more things.

And yeah, I think simply calling them demons is selling them short, especially when taking their nature and being into account.

Shuma

@devilsmaydie:

I see Set just slightly above Chthon, but enough to put him at second, he have more quantifiable feats like showing superiority to the Cosmic Cube, fought Captain Universe with a Cosmic Cube and The Eye of Agamotto, and was able to imprisoned Gaea with his magic, but this is a feat that even Dormammu did, so it isn't a big deal.

Hopefully, I'll be in my home in two days, so I can post the scans.

And I agree, they aren't demons and never will be.

@asmodeus12345: What makes a demon a demon in Marvel? Why is Satannish a demon but not his creator Dormammu? Just curious.

@ordinaryalan:

The demons on Marvel came from the energy of The Elders Gods released after their battle with Demogorge, different from Shuma, Dormammu, Zom and some others.

Steve Englehart pretty much fuc#ed with everything, there's some theories that Dormammu manipulated the energy of The Elder Gods to create Satannish, but for that he should have created Mephisto too, since they're different sides of the same coin and then comes another theory that Dormammu is actually the creator of all Marvel's Demons.

Well the two pretty much have had only 1 interaction thus far and it resulted in Chthon's magic being used to dispel Set's influence over earth.

Based on that wouldn’t it make more sense to believe Chthon might be the more powerful one of the two?

I totally agree with everything else you have mentioned.

@asmodeus12345: I see. Very interesting. I think I'm going to begin researching some of these characters. They intrigue me.

@asmodeus12345:

That's a very interesting question and it's normally based on their appearance and their source of power. Marvel has only ever given us distinction between demons and gods on their secondary publication materials such as marvel handbook.

In fact one of the handbook tries to actually define the terms demon

"A Godlike being whose form and functions have degenerated so it preys upon the living in some way"

The distinction between a god and a demon seem to revolve around their appearances as well as how they use their powers.

Marvel Handbook have gone further to clarify this point.

This is by far the best description I have found in terms of what distinguishes a demons from gods.

"The major distinction between god and demon would appear to be that gods in general are a slightly more evolved lifeforms than demons."

I.e. The appearance

"Demons tend to be a parasitic form of quasi-mystical superhuman life, requiring sustenance of some sort from lesser creatures in order to live"

I.e. how they use their power and where the power are derived from.

Some being are neither classified as gods or demons because not sufficient details are available in regards to their origin and nature.

You guys are slightly mistaken; Shuma Gorath is actually considered a demon and based on his appearance and origin classified as a Class 3 demon.

While Dormammu does have certain characteristics that would appear to make him a god:

1. More evolved humanoid appearance

2. Has his own source of power.

Marvel tends to classify Dormammu and other elementals as unknowns.

" There are also a number of extradimensional mystical beings of an evil nature whose origins are so shrouded that they cannot be classified as a true demons of any of the previous three types (i.e. Class 1, 2 and 3). "

Sattanish is considered a demon because

a) he looks like one - less evolved despite having to some extent humanoid appearance.

b) shares similar trait with a lot of hell lords making him a class 2 demon.

Sorry if the reply got a bit verbose, as a huge fan of mystical side of marvel actuality I tend to get carried away talking about things I really like.

Hope this helps.

Hey, if you ever have any queries or you need clarification in regards to any of the mystic characters in marvel actuality you are more than welcome to give me a nudge.

Hopefully i can be of some help, after all that's the part of marvel actuality that captivates my attention the most ^_^

@claymore1998: Awesome claymore! That's some great info! I'll definitely "nudge" you in the future for more info on these types of characters. Thanks!

@claymore1998:

I never really trusted the Handbooks since I remember Dormammu been cited as a Class 3 demon before.

Also, Satannish reference himself to be the first demon, and The SoS made this pretty clear since he lived ''In The World between Worlds'', but was later changed to be the one part of Satan alongside with other demons, and this continued even until now.

His vassal mentioned that he was the same being with Mephisto, Strange said that he would join them to the same creature they were before, Dormammu himself mentioned Satannish as been the opposite side of Mephisto.

No problem ^_^

Well inconsistency can happen and i could understand Dormammu being classified as a demon but his classification would fall under Class 2 as opposed to Class 3. He is after all humanoid in appearance.

I have personally never seen Dormammu being referred to as any class of demons, though a couple of characters including Kaluu and Ancient One have called him a demon in the past, which I presume was because of his nature as opposed to what classification he would fit.

I don’t understand what contradiction you see here though friend. After all you have to realize each individual hell lords at their inception were created to be the very Satan themselves. It was only after the 1990 where Marvel, in order to create a distinction from religious connotations explained that the real Satan never existed and if he did we haven’t seen him yet. In line with that we were presented the demon assemblage during the Journey Into Mystery tie in during Fear Itself to further show that every demon previously believed to the biblical Satan were all part and partial of him and that no demon thus far has earned the right to reclaim the throne of the one true Satan.

That all falls under the what was done past 1990. This was all done to keep comic demon separate from the Christianity. They wanted to avoid any overlap between the religion and comics.

Splinter Realm was created to go alongside it. While originally all the nether-realms were seen as separate universes, it was later explained that these were a part of otherwise infinite realm, a realm ruled by the true Satan. Satan was somehow defeated and his realm broken down into fragments forming the said nether-realms. Some nether realm continued to grow while other stagnated, and the shattering itself wasn't symmetrical making some neither realm bigger than others.

I presume you are referring to the 2 battles Set had with Atum? The story makes it clear that Set was amped under both the encounters for 1000s of years and each time he still lost.

The only time Set without a bonafied amp has fought Atum involves inside Set's own realm when Atum had absorbed Thor's soul and he defeat Set rather handily in his own realm and tore apart his heads banishing them to other realms.

I however agree with what Asmodeus mentioned, Set has more appearances compared to Chthon and hence has a lot more feats under his belt. His defeats are either in the hands of Atum who was obviously created to his superior or when Earth heroes / Neptune fought against a fraction of his power. Wanda saw Set's ethereal essence in true form and he was big enough to circle multiple earths inside his grip.

That being said Elder Gods, Shuma Gorath etc are merely the most popular of the demons/ gods. There are demonic entities that are more powerful than these but have got very little if any exposure. These demons are often referred to as multi-dimensional entities and are by nature too large to fit into any single reality.

@claymore1998: Still, impressive that he fought the god eater and lived. Chthon just fled, but like I mentioned that scenario is inconclusive, both have been gaining power but Set has more feats. And we know he is at least stronger than his sister Gaea.

Those "demons" you refer to, Shuma-Gorath is one of them (though like Asmodeus and I said he's not really a demon, they just refer to him as the quintessential class 3 demon, which means extra-dimensional) said to be the leader and greatest. He's not being called top dog because he's popular, he's top dog because he was created to be. There has never been an evil entity suggested to be stronger than him. The arc with Sis-neg (Genesis) solidifies it.

@claymore1998:

It was during one of his old Bio entries, I'll post tomorrow when I have acess to my collection.

Maybe because Satannish in Incredible Hulk#256 said that he was ''The Serpent'', ''The King of Darkness'' and first king of Hell? Or the fact that Asmodeus and Lord Nekron invoked him from the Worlds between Worlds, which isn't even a Splinter Realm, but an empty space, by that he should be in the same category as Dweller in Darkness, and he was during the beginning.

Satannish's appearance was never revealed at first, he was like a living flame, sometimes took an humanoid form like with Glorian, but not until Roy Thomas stabilized him as so, as well being the half of the same creature with Mephisto before was split.

And don't mention Fear Itself, half of that beings there weren't demons, one of them as even sit next to Mephisto, as well other things.

@claymore1998:

Also, Chlton have more appearances than Set, but most of them aren't story arcs like Set's ones.

And isn't that simple of Chthon powers dispersing his influence on Earth.

Shuma-Gorath, Master of the Old Ones, would come out on top. From Sise-Neg's hesitance to directly combat Shuma-Gorath for fear of losing energy, to making the Ancient One give up hope as soon as he learned S-G was targeting Earth, to severely weakening Gaea from his attack on Earth without even having to go there, I'd go as far as to say this battle would be easy for him. Probably a stomp considering Strange needed the uber Wings of Needless Sorrow, fusion with a chaos lord limited only by imagination, dark energy from Ghaszaszh Nyrih, and all of Victoria Bentley's magic potential just to combat Shuma-Gorath.

Zom has the fewest showings but I think he'd be in second just judging from having Dormammu and Eternity deal with him.

We might have to agree to disagree in this regards. One character surviving a fight with another character vastly more powerful than him/ her seems rather commonplace in marvel. I also do not think Chthon not partaking in a battle with Atum should be considered adversary considering it was never a battle Chthon could win. That's just a prudent move from where I am standing.

That being said Set having more feats isn’t something I could argue over that's a rather given. We might share different perspective but I am one of those odd ball people around who do not necessarily judge a characters ability based on feats alone.

I disagree and they weren't the types of demons I was referring to. I was rather referring to multi-dimensional demons those that are inherently too big and too powerful to be contained in any single universe.

Neither Shuma Gorath nor any of the old ones are considered such. You might be getting the terms mixed up though.

Extradimensional is merely a term used to refer to being that originates in a dimension other than 616-actuality. Think of it as an extension of the term extraterrestrial. That's different from the class of demons I was referring to.

Furthermore, Shuma Gorath as well as the old ones have always been a demons. I am not sure what led you to think otherwise.

I have personally never seen anything calling Shuma Gorath the "top dog" or anything like that. While I have seen him being referred to as the leader and the most powerful of the old ones, that's just a small group of demons and that title should not be influential to other classes of Demons.

As per what demons were I referring to, that would be Solorith and Asteroth.

When a tiny fraction of the former demon made his way to 616 reality during the war of the seven spheres and started to grow the entire universe was threatened. Living Tribunal then had to interfere and banish him. It was likewise mentioned that Solorith was never capable of fully manifesting in our actuality because he was vastly bigger than it.

The latter we have only seen a fraction of its power and was defeated by Beta Ray Bill >.< . Now while being defeated by BRB is pretty poor, what was most interesting was the details we got of her full power, i.e. she is a demon who goes around consuming entire universes and holds within her the power to change, create as well as destroy the whole 616 reality.

Based on the portrayal itself these demons are more powerful than even abstract being in marvel actuality which as Thanos Imperative story clearly demonstrates Shuma Gorath isn’t.

I think you are misreading the arc. Sise-Neg was only searching the highest concentration of mystic energy on our universe and it happened to be Shuma Gorath in that particular point in time before the big bang.

Furthermore, that is a very old story to refer to and should have no direct influence over demons that were created years or even decades after the said story.

Sure, sounds rather odd why they would classify him as class 3 demon though.

Maybe they are using his original form as a falatine to suggest he isn’t humanoid.

I am not sure what contradiction you see here. First character statements about themselves don’t necessarily have to be facts and while Sattanish might have been created at the time of inception to be the oldest and the most powerful hell lord it has not always been the case. As with any other fictional character, changes in history and origin aren’t really that big a deal.

Furthermore I am trying to understand, why would you believe the distance between Worlds between Worlds to not be a part of the splinter realm? I have not really read the said issue that you are referring to so perhaps there is something mentioned there that I am missing.

The same is true for various mystical beings including Dormammu, Agamotto, Cyttorak etc and this should have no bearing on him now being considered as a hell lord.

It was the demonic assemblage, so they don't really have to be demons per say, merely just the assemblage of evil mystical entities under one roof.

I can agree with that, but I was more thinking you know a portion of Chthon power being able to banish all of Set's influence on Earth seem to suggest Chthon's power might be more powerful but I can understand your disagreement to it.

Furthermore, Quicksilver with Chthon seemed vastly more powerful and threatening compared to anyone with Serpent Crown, and they are both a fraction of the elder gods power (well I am just assuming both fraction are equal amount but I understand that's a big assumption to make)

It probably is personal opinion but Chthon always seem more impressive to me.

Here's some more info I found regarding Shuma Gorath and his "class 3" classification. Click. :)

EDIT: I just realized you referring to Dormammu, not Shuma-Gorath. My bad. Still some good info on Shuma in that link though. Cheers!

@ordinaryalan: that's actually a pretty cool thread. I am glad it has all the proof on stuffs I mentioned here.

Coz one of the disagreement we are seemingly having is whether or not Shuma would be considered a demon. That thread seem to classify Shuma has a class 3 demon which is exactly what I was arguing he is.

It's also nice somebody took the time to post definition of extra dimensions :) very helpful.

@claymore1998: You are referring to the many-angled ones (shuma gorath is one of them) which in their old bio was described as beings that when they approach another universe to feed off of they approach it slowly and from many angles (which is where they get their name) to wedge part of their essence, in order to avoid destroying it. An exert from their description "The Many-Angled Ones are primordial cosmic entities that inhabit the spaces between universes." There is nothing else that works with your description of "these more powerful demons," in all of Marvel.

Slorioth who you referenced (there is not Solorith) is also a class 3 demon as is Asteroth (but that classification is loose, and Shuma Gorath being a Many-Angled One discredits being a true demon." And the situation with Slorioth, the Vishanti saw into the future and noticed that the macro energy that would result in the battle to defeat him (and they were confident in their ability to do so) would destroy the dimension. But then again in a battle with Shuma Gorath the energies released (which wasn't even the full extent) put dimensions far away at risk of being destroyed. Destroying a dimension in a fight is nothing special among these beings.

As for the situation with Sise-Neg, I'd say you misread it. He was absorbing energy from all dimensions (not just 616). At the end he became Genesis, Dr Strange concluded that this paradoxical event might actually be how it all was always created. The comic even explains that Mordo met the face of God and became insane. Stan Lee was pissed, that they basically showcased God, he wanted a retraction but it never happened. So it stands, in affect above the will of Stan Lee at the time. When he met Shuma Gorath it was not before the big bang (it was on earth after all), that came after when Genesis went back before creation and caused the big bang (recreating is as everything was before). And he was near the end of his journey when he came to Shuma Gorath, everything else was drained up. Even the other beings, as shown by Dr Strange's conjuring power (spells granted by the principalities, like the Vishanti) had been weakening til it was eventually gone.

I have personally seen plenty of people call Shuma top dog, Steve Engleheart created him for that. Nothing before or since had ever been suggested to replace him. Oh and here's the kicker Slorioth is a member of the great old ones which you admitted Shuma Gorath was the most powerful of.

The Vishanti seemed to believe that they could eventually destroy Slorioth.

Long ago they fought Shuma-Gorath through unknown circumstances (I like to think they fought him while he was on Earth because Agamotto was Earth's original Sorcerer Supreme and Oshtur is an Elder God) and it doesn't seem like much came out of that. It seems like they gave up fighting Shuma-Gorath directly because they refused to help Doctor Strange in his struggle against him and Shuma-Gorath even tells Strange later that The Vishanti no longer concern themselves with him.

So wait is Zom like some sort of monkey/human hybrid and is he rocking yellow loafers!?! FOH!

No I am not referring to the many angled ones, not sure why you thought I was.

Furthermore, I am curious to where you are talking that statement from, I certainly haven't seen that in any bios I have. Would you be able to give me a reference to it?

I am not sure them inhibiting spaces between universes makes much difference, though that doesn't seem actually true because at least Shuma Gorath himself has his own realm where he normally inhibits.

While i could agree on that, classification of demons under subclass has nothing to do with power level.

Furthermore, Shuma Gorath has been called a demon in the past as well as fits the definition of demon perfectly. I certainly see no reason to believe there is anything that "discredits him being a true demon".

Is there anything you could bring forth to suggest that is the case?

I disagree.

A better way to delineate my view on this would be to begin this with a question. During a fairly recently arc in Mighty Avengers, Shuma Gorath was defeated by summoning what was labeled as a "more powerful god" from Eva's amulet.

My question to you is would you take that issue and conclude the panther god is indeed more powerful than Shuma Gorath? I am not sure what your perspective on this is but we were earlier told that it was only a fraction of Shuma's true power that has manifested on Earth, analogous to fingernails, therefore any statement made during that would only suggest the said panther god was more powerful than whatever tiny fraction of Shuma's true power manifested on Earth.

The story with Slorioth mirrors the same. We are told he is too big to even fit in our actuality but when confronted by the Vishanti he hadn’t even grown to the size of a city yet. Anything said in the said comics should only be applicable to fraction of Slorioth power that had successfully entered 616-dimension at the time.

We obviously disagree with each others interpretation. Sadly i feel we are going to have to agree to disagree on this eventually but lets explore the possibility.

I do not recall anything in the story that would suggest so. Furthermore, if Sise-Neg actually wanted the mystic energies from every dimension why would he return to Earth during each point in time to absorb the highest concentration of magic at any given moment? It simply does not add up.

Give we have been explained, in detail, that mystic realm beyond earth have more magic concentrated in a tiny area, reason why Stephen with Shuma's power was going to destroy galaxies if he so much as entered our dimension, it would not make sense for a being seeking magic from every dimension to return to 616 dimension and even then to Earth in particular again and again to absorb the highest concentration of mystic energy at any given time.

If he wanted the whole energy from every dimension, why would he attempt to drain Shuma Gorath on earth, and leave Shuma's own direction beaming with mystical energies?

This does not validate the said assertion though. The paradox here was Sise-Neg after becoming god chooses to create the whole universe exactly as it has always been without changing anything. This would mean in the 30 th century another Sise-Neg would be born who partake on the same journey again.

The god label does not help the said assertion either. Thanos with the power of Infinity Gauntlet from 616 reality was repeatedly called God just as well.

God being a plot device in comics, there is no inherent need to have energy from beyond any reality for someone to be considered a god.

I am well aware of this, but this only showcases Sise-Neg was extremely powerful. That is not the assertion I am disagreeing with.

I think you misunderstand what I was trying to say, or perhaps my wording wasn’t accurate. When I mentioned the particular point in time before the big bang, I was referring to Sise-Neg's journey which flows on the reverse order, from future to past. Shuma Gorath was the last stop on Earth before he reaches the time before big bang.

Stephen's inability to use magic was explained within the story and it was because of his vicinity to Sise-Neg. Stephen even mentions that being near to Sise-Neg drains both him and Mordo of their powers. That's not to suggest Vishanti themselves had lost their energy but that Sise-Neg's ability to drain energy was hampering Stephen's and Mordo's ability to call forth mystic energy. It actually adds up when you consider Sise-Neg also likewise showed his superiority against the very Eye of Agamotto.

I have obviously not seen either of this. Would you be kind enough to post any panel, or interview where Shuma is addressed as the most powerful demon? I would also likewise appreciate anything suggesting Slorioth is a member of the old ones.

@claymore1998: If you're not referring to them then just who are you referring to? It's neither name you mentioned. Nothing about either suggests they belong above Shuma-Gorath. Even Mephisto can grow to the size of his dimension. And if he were stated too big for a universe then it contradicts itself as he was once in the earth 616 dimension, and his body and soul was sealed by a group of sorcerers. In fact, he planned his invasion of the earth dimension again. Only he waited til the other extra-dimensional entities were busy with the war. But you're aware he did take part in the war of seven spheres, correct? In that, he targeted the lower end extra-dimensional beings and tried to take the Dark Dimension... and lost. If he is so powerful why did he not win the war (it's implied the Vishanti won) let alone defeat Dormammu (who is a far cry from the Vishanti)?

The only thing offhand I can find about Slorioth being an old one right now is the marvel wikia page (though I generally don't like to use them, it's really late right now) he's affiliated under Great Old Ones. And he as been featured, in all his being, within a dimension.

Zom I think maybe,,,,but shuma due to more feats

@devilsmaydie: Going to work at the moment , I can't quote I will reply to you tomorrow :)

I don't think we are going to agree on this though but hey it's been fun debating with you ^_^

@claymore1998: 616 is a time period meaning taking place as of right now for this arc. It didn't exist before the concept of a multiverse was created. Sooner or later, events such as Chaos Wars and Fear Itself will become a new number, but during their time of event, it was happening at 616 (now). The extradimsenion on the other hand, doesn't follow the 616 rule because unlike the multiverse (events that happen inside Eternity), the extradimension is timeless.

@ohgawd: definitely zom. If chaos King was in there I would put him at the top. But besides him, zom stomps