Who is the most powerful live-action character that MCU Daredevil can defeat? Assume standard gear, morals on, and the fight is to incapacitation. Takes place in an abandoned warehouse and they start 20 yards apart and visible with cover close by.
Jessica Jones- Though she has a major strength advantage, she has shown to have struggle against opponents with skill and even been taken down by ordinary humans.
DCEU Bane- Makes sense for DD to beat him since Batman did, and Matt has shown to be a better fighter than him. He takes this 6/10.
He's a well-rounded martial artist. I couldn't see him taking Widow. Really anyone with special training I couldn't see him taking. So no May, Mockingbird, depowered Daisy Johnson, Ward.He could outskill Jessica Jones, Patsy Walker. He could beat Thea Queen, Black Canary with no cry.
Jessica Jones- Though she has a major strength advantage, she has shown to have struggle against opponents with skill and even been taken down by ordinary humans.
DCEU Bane- Makes sense for DD to beat him since Batman did, and Matt has shown to be a better fighter than him. He takes this 6/10.
He is more skilled than anyone besides Bucky and Steve, faster by a big margin considering he can dodge bullets and catch arrows mid air, better senses and better use of the environment.
He's a well-rounded martial artist. I couldn't see him taking Widow. Really anyone with special training I couldn't see him taking. So no May, Mockingbird, depowered Daisy Johnson, Ward.He could outskill Jessica Jones, Patsy Walker. He could beat Thea Queen, Black Canary with no cry.
Dude, Matt is more skilled than Widow, he would beat her 9/10, and it is very clear Natasha´s reputation within shield, in fact IIRC Ward couldn´t match her stats in a physical test, and he´s the most skilled out of all the agents, hell, I would even say Daredevil can take out May, Mockingbird and Skye at the same time, and he can definitely take Ward one on one.
CW Ted Grant is probably the absolute toughest opponent he can take. In fact I tend to use Ted as the stand in for his combat level on crossover battle threads.
In the interest of avoiding a flame war, I won't make comparisons outside of the MCU. As far as where he stands within the MCU, I am pretty much in agreement wigh T17. I see him doing well against widow with his red suit, but that is because Widow favors more athletic, physically expressive combat styles. These are more easily exploited than the fighting utilized by the AoS crew, for example.
I think he would prolly take Daisy w/o powers (or a gun) though. Could give Widow a fight stylistically but loses pretty hard to May for the same reasons. Ward or Bobbi would eat his soul and still be hungry.
Dude, Matt is more skilled than Widow, he would beat her 9/10, and it is very clear Natasha´s reputation within shield, in fact IIRC Ward couldn´t match her stats in a physical test, and he´s the most skilled out of all the agents, hell, I would even say Daredevil can take out May, Mockingbird and Skye at the same time, and he can definitely take Ward one on one.
I seriously doubt Matt could beat Black Widow. He may have better durability / pain tolerance, but she has the agility edge and possibly the skill edge.
Gadgets or not, Matt wouldn't be able to replicate the following feat.
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When up against thugs in similar scenarios, he had a hard time and took some hits. Nobody touched Black Widow, and they were likely more skilled than the thugs Matt fought (armed and, presumably, trained bodyguards). Widow breezed through this with little difficulty and never got tagged - some of those were one hit KO's, mind you. Matt was struggling the entire time against less skilled enemies.
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So yeah. I'd definitely put Black Widow over Matt. Say what would you will about Hawkeye, but he gave Widow a better fight than I think Matt would (and no, I don't think she was holding back against him, and there's no indication that he was holding back, either).
in which case what do you think of the outcome if it was DD from the 2003 movie?
Well, that's something else entirely. Movie Daredevil is very fast. He was able to dodge Bullseye multiple times, and essentially survive a gauntlet at the end of the movie that would have killed MCU Matt after the fight with Elektra: he took a stab in the chest from Elektra, he took a beating from Bullseye, and went on to take another beating from Kingpin... and he survived after beating the last two. Better durability / endurance / pain tolerance feat than MCU Matt by a large margin. If memory serves, he's also a bullet timer, fought much larger rooms of enemies, and was leaping between buildings at superhuman heights. Not to mention the fact that movie Daredevil has far better and more versatile gadgets.
I'd put movie Daredevil in a much higher category, because I think he's pushing superhuman.
@jedixman: Kingpin damage output was pretty beastly as well, and Matt bet him after everything he went through in the season.
Maybe, but I don't see Kingpin challenging... well, anybody I mentioned, frankly. Given Matt's speed, I find it absurd that Kingpin could tag him at all. I don't see him even landing a hit on Widow or Batroc, and if he did, I think Batroc could tank it. Keep in mind that Matt also had a suit that (supposedly) granted enhanced durability.
@jedixman: To be fair to Matt, in the hallway scene he was still recovering from wounds that had him almost unable to stand earlier that night, so his performance there isn't a good representation of him at his peak. I agree that he's still below Natasha though.
@jedixman: To be fair to Matt, in the hallway scene he was still recovering from wounds that had him almost unable to stand earlier that night, so his performance there isn't a good representation of him at his peak. I agree that he's still below Natasha though.
That may be so, but I don't think there's a single fight in the show where he wasn't Tagged.
@jedixman Actually Matt was hardly tagged by fodder when he was fighting at his best or anywhere close to it.
Natasha taking down about a dozen guards with gear playing a significant part of the scene doesn't really put her above Matt IMO.
He still seemed to struggle more against fewer numbers than Nat.
I wouldn't call it a significant part. She used some gadgets, but gadgets aren't what aided her flips, kicks, and hits. She was able to easily dodge them, land hits that knocked them out, and - again - was never tagged.
Let's also not forget her fight against multiple opponents... unarmed... awhile tied to a chair. She got tagged once from behind, and instantly reversed the attack. Matt certainly would have taken more hits.
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Keep in mind that this battle mentions use of standard gear. So the gadgets she'd use are in play (I'm not going to count the things she used in AoU). She would have a significant edge in terms of gadget range and general versatility, in addition to skills and agility that put her in or above Matt's league.
I'd argue he can bend spoons with all of the live action street-levelers, which in my mind doesn't include argumented people like Cap and Bucky. And the most powerful street-leveler there is, so far is:
Combining a great amount of strength, durability along with being a trained fighter from the same school that taught Batman, this isn't a fight you win unless you come prepared.
1- I seriously doubt Matt could beat Black Widow. He may have better durability / pain tolerance, but she has the agility edge and possibly the skill edge.
Gadgets or not, Matt wouldn't be able to replicate the following feat.
2- When up against thugs in similar scenarios, he had a hard time and took some hits. Nobody touched Black Widow, and they were likely more skilled than the thugs Matt fought (armed and, presumably, trained bodyguards). Widow breezed through this with little difficulty and never got tagged - some of those were one hit KO's, mind you. Matt was struggling the entire time against less skilled enemies.
3- So yeah. I'd definitely put Black Widow over Matt. Say what would you will about Hawkeye, but he gave Widow a better fight than I think Matt would (and no, I don't think she was holding back against him, and there's no indication that he was holding back, either).
4- Matt's good, but let's not overrate him.
1- She does not have a single edge over Matt besides gadgets, Matt was clearly more agile seeing as he was able to dodge bullets from a few feet, something Widow hasn´t even come close to replicating, he is also more skilled based on his fights and movements. As for the video of Natasha from "Iron Man 2", in most of the guys she used gadgets to get an advantage over them, she barely fought hand to hand while they were ready.
2- Matt could barely stand on his feet and was more damaged than he was during the entire season, yet he stomped thugs with nothing more than his bare hands. And you have nothing to base that the thugs Natasha fought were more skilled than the ones Matt fought, that´s just assumption with nothing to back it up, and Matt only struggled because he could barely breath and stand.
While he was freaking handcuffed and on his knees, he had no problem managing trained cops and was not tagged a single time.
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3- Hawkeye´s good, but his main attack is already countered by the fact that Daredevil can catch arrows mid air, and since Matt hasn´t fought Natasha, your just assuming again on whether or not Clint would do better.
1- She does not have a single edge over Matt besides gadgets, Matt was clearly more agile seeing as he was able to dodge bullets from a few feet, something Widow hasn´t even come close to replicating, he is also more skilled based on his fights and movements. As for the video of Natasha from "Iron Man 2", in most of the guys she used gadgets to get an advantage over them, she barely fought hand to hand while they were ready.
He didn't dodge bullets, he got out of the way because he "saw" where his opponent was aiming. Good feat, but let's not call it actual bullet dodging.
Barely fought hand to hand, you say?
Man runs at her, she dodges and incapacitates him. She then vaults over him and takes out another man... who is running at her. Considering the fact that both men were running at her, I'd say they were "ready" and still got destroyed. No use of gadgets, no element of surprise; pure agility and skill. The also oneshot that second guy... now how many people has Matt oneshot?
Man attacks her with a baton. Yes, she uses a wire... hardly high-tech. She fights off three men at the same time. All three were ready for her.
KO's one guy, then dodges and counter-attacks somebody else who attempts to attack her from behind. Second man was ready for her.
Matt wouldn't have gotten out of that fight without multiple injuries, and he has enhanced senses that Widow doesn't have.
2- Matt could barely stand on his feet and was more damaged than he was during the entire season, yet he stomped thugs with nothing more than his bare hands. And you have nothing to base that the thugs Natasha fought were more skilled than the ones Matt fought, that´s just assumption with nothing to back it up, and Matt only struggled because he could barely breath and stand.
What thugs are you referring to? It's not a leap to assume that hired bodyguards - hired by an extremely wealthy man - are above the average thug. If you're talking about the ones Nat fought while tied to a chair, yeah, I'd assume they're better than the ones Matt fought, since she was up against an international criminal who was powerful enough to get SHIELD's attention.
Why was it that he could barely stand? Because he was constantly getting beat up every episode? Hell, Matt had a problem against a single assassin in the first episode. I wouldn't put that guy on Black Widow's level, either.
While he was freaking handcuffed and on his knees, he had no problem managing trained cops and was not tagged a single time.
And how is that more impressive than Nat fighting a Russian crimelord's henchmen while tied to a chair? Also, note that the cops were looking at the other person and moving to kill him, not focused on Matt. The ones Nat fought were focused on her, since she was the only threat in the room.
3- Hawkeye´s good, but his main attack is already countered by the fact that Daredevil can catch arrows mid air, and since Matt hasn´t fought Natasha, your just assuming again on whether or not Clint would do better.
4- No overrating at all, he´s just that good.
He can catch... an arrow. Okay. How's he going to do against multiple arrows? Or arrows that explode? Yes, I am assuming that Clint did better against Nat than Matt would, based on Nat's showings and the difficulty she had with Clint. If we go the route of "well, they never fought, so you can't know," then this entire thread is pointless since Matt hasn't fought any of these people.
Yes, Matt's good - I'm not disputing that. I'm saying that Nat is better. Part of the problem is that people think that, because Daredevil had better choreography, that means he's a better fighter. That's not true.
Keep in mind that this thread says "standard gear." Are you really going to tell me that Nat has a chance against her if she can use her gadgets and guns? She's comparable to Matt if not better than him; give her the gear advantage and she clearly wins.
He didn't dodge bullets, he got out of the way because he "saw" where his opponent was aiming. Good feat, but let's not call it actual bullet dodging.
He dodged bullets, hell, he did that in the first episode when he rescued those kidnapped girls, then the black guy loaded his gun, Matt heard that, and when he shot, Daredevil did some kind of backflip and dodged the bullet.
Barely fought hand to hand, you say?
Man runs at her, she dodges and incapacitates him. She then vaults over him and takes out another man... who is running at her. Considering the fact that both men were running at her, I'd say they were "ready" and still got destroyed. No use of gadgets, no element of surprise; pure agility and skill. The also oneshot that second guy... now how many people has Matt oneshot?
She took down two men, not very impressive when compared to Matt where he took on around 8 guys while he could barely stand. Matt didn´t one shot enemies IIRC, but that won´t matter here because Matt is far more skilled, agile, and faster than those fodder Widow faced which by the looks of it, don´t have any single noteworthy training.
Man attacks her with a baton. Yes, she uses a wire... hardly high-tech. She fights off three men at the same time. All three were ready for her.
Still not hand to hand, she´s using outer elements to take an advantage over her opponents, something which Matt barely or never did, most if not all his fights were pure hand to hand.
KO's one guy, then dodges and counter-attacks somebody else who attempts to attack her from behind. Second man was ready for her.
Matt wouldn't have gotten out of that fight without multiple injuries, and he has enhanced senses that Widow doesn't have.
In what, or which situation are you basing that Matt wouldn´t leave without multiple injuries ?? So far, there is nothing Widow has done that Matt can´t replicate, while I can finally see Widow taking out some guys with just hand to hand, they were just two men in the GIF above, while Matt took out 3 policemen while handcuffed.
What thugs are you referring to? It's not a leap to assume that hired bodyguards - hired by an extremely wealthy man - are above the average thug. If you're talking about the ones Nat fought while tied to a chair, yeah, I'd assume they're better than the ones Matt fought, since she was up against an international criminal who was powerful enough to get SHIELD's attention.
To the bodyguards from Iron Man 2. Kingpin is also extremely wealthy and probably the most powerful man in New York, seeing as everybody was afraid of him and did not want to cross him, so I would also assume that he hires the best of the best considering money is not a problem for him.
Why was it that he could barely stand? Because he was constantly getting beat up every episode? Hell, Matt had a problem against a single assassin in the first episode. I wouldn't put that guy on Black Widow's level, either.
He could barely stand because he was stabbed and left for death because of how injured he was, his lungs were going to collapse if not for Claire´s intervention, he was going to die, yet while in a dying state, he took out multiple men in a very reduced space.
That single assasin was clearly well trained, one just has to look at his movements to notice that, none of the opponents that Natasha has faced were as trained as that single assasin, in fact, every single person that Natasha has faced in the MCU are fodder, not a single opponent with any noteworthy quality.
note that the cops were looking at the other person and moving to kill him, not focused on Matt. The ones Nat fought were focused on her, since she was the only threat in the room.
Matt wasn´t focused on them either, he was facing his back towards them and on his knees. Natasha took his opponents by surprise, they weren´t expecting she would attack them and Natasha took advantage of that, they were just as, if not more surprised by the policemen who actually had guns and still were unable to kill Matt, while Widow´s opponents were not armed.
Sorry, but tied to a chair > handcuffed.
Not under the situation I just described.
He can catch... an arrow. Okay. How's he going to do against multiple arrows? Or arrows that explode? Yes, I am assuming that Clint did better against Nat than Matt would, based on Nat's showings and the difficulty she had with Clint. If we go the route of "well, they never fought, so you can't know," then this entire thread is pointless since Matt hasn't foughtany of these people.
I knew you were going to bring that up and I was just waiting for it so I could debunk it. Matt would know that the arrows explode by smelling the explosives inside of them, so he would know to avoid them or throw them as quickly as he can once he catches it, as for dodging multiple arrow, IIRC the most arrows Clint has shoot at once are three, and that won´t be a problem for Daredevil, the three arrows would go towards him and we have already seen he has the speed to avoid them.
You didn´t understand my point, most of the battles are assumption considering some have never faced or are even from different universes, but what I´m saying is that you have nothing to base Clint would do better than Matt when the latter outclasses Natasha in every single aspect besides gear.
Yes, Matt's good - I'm not disputing that. I'm saying that Nat is better. Part of the problem is that people think that, because Daredevil had better choreography, that means he's a better fighter. That's not true.
I wouldn´t say Matt had better choreography, that aspect was about equal, but the showing are not, Matt has an advantage there, not a huge one, but he still does.
Keep in mind that this thread says "standard gear." Are you really going to tell me that Nat has a chance against her if she can use her gadgets and guns? She's comparable to Matt if not better than him; give her the gear advantage and she clearly wins.
I agree that with gear Natasha would probably win a slight majority over Matt, but when it comes to sheer skill and who´s the better fighter, Daredevil comes out on top.
I think this is a good match, don´t get me wrong, I´m not saying Matt stomps, but he should get a majority in a H2H battle........would you like doing a CaV with this matchup ??
She took down two men, not very impressive when compared to Matt where he took on around 8 guys while he could barely stand. Matt didn´t one shot enemies IIRC, but that won´t matter here because Matt is far more skilled, agile, and faster than those fodder Widow faced which by the looks of it, don´t have any single noteworthy training.
How is their implied experience more valid than the fodder Matt fought? Also, the fact that she essentially one-shot the second guy is impressive.
Man attacks her with a baton. Yes, she uses a wire... hardly high-tech. She fights off three men at the same time. All three were ready for her.
Still not hand to hand, she´s using outer elements to take an advantage over her opponents, something which Matt barely or never did, most if not all his fights were pure hand to hand.
And the fact that her opponent was using a weapon doesn't level the playing field? If this were Matt vs Widow with a wire, we'd call that standard gear and wouldn't complain about the tech difference. And she still used h2h against the others, KOing the third man who ran at her.
KO's one guy, then dodges and counter-attacks somebody else who attempts to attack her from behind. Second man was ready for her.
Matt wouldn't have gotten out of that fight without multiple injuries, and he has enhanced senses that Widow doesn't have.
In what, or which situation are you basing that Matt wouldn´t leave without multiple injuries ?? So far, there is nothing Widow has done that Matt can´t replicate, while I can finally see Widow taking out some guys with just hand to hand, they were just two men in the GIF above, while Matt took out 3 policemen while handcuffed.
I meant the entire scenario as a whole, not the individual gifs.
What thugs are you referring to? It's not a leap to assume that hired bodyguards - hired by an extremely wealthy man - are above the average thug. If you're talking about the ones Nat fought while tied to a chair, yeah, I'd assume they're better than the ones Matt fought, since she was up against an international criminal who was powerful enough to get SHIELD's attention.
To the bodyguards from Iron Man 2. Kingpin is also extremely wealthy and probably the most powerful man in New York, seeing as everybody was afraid of him and did not want to cross him, so I would also assume that he hires the best of the best considering money is not a problem for him.
I was comparing the thugs to the bodyguards, not Fisk's personal guards. Matt had a hard time with normal thugs, like it or not.
Why was it that he could barely stand? Because he was constantly getting beat up every episode? Hell, Matt had a problem against a single assassin in the first episode. I wouldn't put that guy on Black Widow's level, either.
He could barely stand because he was stabbed and left for death because of how injured he was, his lungs were going to collapse if not for Claire´s intervention, he was going to die, yet while in a dying state, he took out multiple men in a very reduced space.
That single assasin was clearly well trained, one just has to look at his movements to notice that, none of the opponents that Natasha has faced were as trained as that single assasin, in fact, every single person that Natasha has faced in the MCU are fodder, not a single opponent with any noteworthy quality.
(my question was rhetorical, you know) The fact that he was injured is a good excuse? How? He was wounded in a fight. So great; he was almost killed by a nameless assassin (essentially fodder with no feats outside of his fight with Matt). That's not a good feat and it doesn't make Matt look good.
Nat is supposed to be SHIELD's best operative. There is the implication that she would be the best, and her place in the Avengers essentially proves that. They might be "fodder," but their place in the Marvel Universe is implied by who they are, who they are fighting for, and why Nat is fighting them in the first place.
note that the cops were looking at the other person and moving to kill him, not focused on Matt. The ones Nat fought were focused on her, since she was the only threat in the room.
Matt wasn´t focused on them either, he was facing his back towards them and on his knees. Natasha took his opponents by surprise, they weren´t expecting she would attack them and Natasha took advantage of that, they were just as, if not more surprised by the policemen who actually had guns and still were unable to kill Matt, while Widow´s opponents were not armed.
Really? You're going to say that Matt wasn't focused on them because he wasn't facing them? The blind man doesn't need to face anybody to be focusing on them. Come on.
She took none of the people I mentioned by surprise. Each and every one, except for the first man in the third gif, were running at her and attempting to engage her in a fight. Are you really going to say that an enemy who is running up to Nat, after seeing his ally taken down, is being taken by surprise? That's ludicrous. She only took people by surprise when she used the gadgets, which were scenes I didn't show. The cops had Matt handcuffed, the first was leading him away, and the other 2 were going after the Russian (backs turned to Matt). They were not, in any way, expecting a fight. They were taken by surprise. The people I cited saw Nat, ran to attack her, and were brought down. Hell, one guy attacked her from behind, using the element of surprise and still lost. You're reaching.
Not under the situation I just described.
Yeah it is. As I just explained: they weren't initially focused on Matt. The bodyguards around Nat were all facing her. She was at more of a mobility disadvantage, a height disadvantage, and her enemies weren't initially distracted like the guys Matt fought.
I knew you were going to bring that up and I was just waiting for it so I could debunk it. Matt would know that the arrows explode by smelling the explosives inside of them, so he would know to avoid them or throw them as quickly as he can once he catches it, as for dodging multiple arrow, IIRC the most arrows Clint has shoot at once are three, and that won´t be a problem for Daredevil, the three arrows would go towards him and we have already seen he has the speed to avoid them.
You didn´t understand my point, most of the battles are assumption considering some have never faced or are even from different universes, but what I´m saying is that you have nothing to base Clint would do better than Matt when the latter outclasses Natasha in every single aspect besides gear.
That's a leap there. You're also assuming that Clint wouldn't aim for the surroundings rather than Matt.
I understood perfectly. Clint's ability to hurt Nat, and the fact that Nat struggled in their fight, seems more impressive than what Matt would do.
Keep in mind that this thread says "standard gear." Are you really going to tell me that Nat has a chance against her if she can use her gadgets and guns? She's comparable to Matt if not better than him; give her the gear advantage and she clearly wins.
I agree that with gear Natasha would probably win a slight majority over Matt, but when it comes to sheer skill and who´s the better fighter, Daredevil comes out on top.
I think this is a good match, don´t get me wrong, I´m not saying Matt stomps, but he should get a majority in a H2H battle........would you like doing a CaV with this matchup ??
I don't see the point in a CaV. These aren't even characters that I would even use in a CaV.
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