MCU: War Machine vs CW: Atom

VS

Round 1:

Random Encounter

In Character

Round 2:

1 Day Prep

Morals Off

Win by Any Means

War Machine. Haven't even seen Civil War.

Genuinely disappointed that Atom and Firestorm, the two MVP's of Legends, are so underused.

Atoms shrinking could theoretically cause some problems, but given that Falcon can see opponents that size I don't think its a stretch to say Warmachines suit could probably keep track of him. I don't think Atom has much to put up against all that firepower, plus his attacks are concussive in nature and given the kind of drop Rhodey survived in his suit, when it had already stopped working he seems very well defended against that kind of damage.

Ray can't hurt Rhodey. The inverse however, is not true. Rhodey can hurt Ray.

War machine destroys him

@stahlflamme: @supremegeneration: @stormdriven: @jayskee:

It sounds like you guys haven't seen the latest episode of Legends of Tomorrow?

I don't think Rhodes stands much of a chance here...Ray grows to be a couple hundred feet tall and pummels a futuristic, army-crushing, giant robot called the Leviathan...Yes that is a electrical tower in his hand...His lazer blasts grow proportionally too.

@rag_man: Context man. He needed special fuel and there's no prep here. Rhodes stomps.

@rag_man: He'll only be able to do that the second round maybe. When he did it in the show he needed the ships power to get that big.

Ray can shrink way smaller than Scott, he can go down to a cellular level.

Atom mostly fires compressed lightning but he can also discharge it like lightning bolts as well.

Rhodey and Iron Man struggled to put down Giant Man.

@rag_man: You mean how Ray needed additional power to reverse the polarity of the dwarf star matrix, thus using the power from the auxiliary time drive to do so? Ray can't increase his size here, at least in the random, so it's a moot point. And even if he was giant sized, there's no way he'd hit Rhodey at all. He was way too slow.

Really? Must have missed that, that's what you get when you try and watch TV with your wife :P

What did he pipe in the Wave Runner's power source?

@the_kidd: Ant-man went past cellular in his movie

@the_kidd: Ray isn't increasing in size for the random. And assuming that's how Ray would use his prep, if he even had access to that much power, how is he supposed to hit Rhodey? He was much slower as a giant.

@love: I know but he couldn't maintain it and kept shrinking.

@rag_man said:

Yea, he popped in the Wave Rider's battery or something and went giant.

I understand it's a moot point but a jumbo jet looks slow flying across the sky too, until it gets up close.

He can control how much he grows to, he only went that big to fight the Leviathan on equal terms, no reason for him to grow that big to fight WM just big enough to swat him away.

True, we need to see if Ray continues to use his suit for that purpose.

True, but that doesn't really mean much when put up against a suit with the capability of outmaneuvering jets and performing complex flight patterns in an instant.

So what good would it do him to grow at all? We'd only have a general idea of what he could do at whatever size is proposed, and there's really nothing to say it would help any against a suit much faster and more maneuverable than his own. The only advantage Ray's suit carries is its ability to change size, but he lacks the damage output, strength (normal size), durability (normal size), and maneuverability to compare to the War Machine suit. Ray himself lacks combat ability to compare to Rhodes, so there isn't a whole lot he can do here.

@stormdriven: I think Ray might have looked slow because of the editing. His progressed light beams also looked slow which doesn't really make sense if those beams are actually light beams (unless the progressed part is suppose to mean something). It also looks like the Levithian falls slowly as well when Ray hits it with the power line.

Admittedly I can't really prove what I am saying but I think we need to consider the budget that they have with some of there effects.

cant Atom just strink and disable War Machine's suit? seeing how smart palmer is , I doubt he wouldn't think of that

He can shrink and mess with Rhodey's suit.

@stormdriven:

So what good would it do him to grow at all? We'd only have a general idea of what he could do at whatever size is proposed, and there's really nothing to say it would help any against a suit much faster and more maneuverable than his own.

What good did it do Scott? Ray only grew to that extent to equal the leviathan, If he grew to the size of Giant Man in Civil War he wouldnt be to slow to catch Rhodey. In fact he should have an easier time tagging people than Scott because the ATOM suit has an HUD which scans and tracks targets.

The only advantage Ray's suit carries is its ability to change size,

That isn't a good enough advantage which allows him to contend with War Machine?

but he lacks the damage output, strength (normal size),

Agreed.

durability (normal size), and maneuverability to compare to the War Machine suit.

That fall in Civil War damn near killed Rhodey.

Ray flew through a jet at a higher or equal altitude then crash landed and got back up, Rhodey broke his spine.

Again Ray fell from an higher altitude and just walked it off like nothing, so his durability is not bad as you think. Also in those two clips Ray was shown to be dogfighting with a jet and robots, his maneuverability isn't bad either.

Ray himself lacks combat ability to compare to Rhodes, so there isn't a whole lot he can do here.

I dont even get this one as Ray has more combat feats than Rhodey.

Forgive me since I have not seen civil war but didn't Scott shrink to molecular levels in ant-man? Did anything change since then?

@comicace3: When he went sub atomic in Ant Man but couldn't control his shrinking and kept shrinking down, they didn't address if that was solved in Civil War but he mention experimenting in the labs and learn how to enlarge himself.

@the_kidd:

What good did it do Scott? Ray only grew to that extent to equal the leviathan, If he grew to the size of Giant Man in Civil War he wouldnt be to slow to catch Rhodey. In fact he should have an easier time tagging people than Scott because the ATOM suit has an HUD which scans and tracks targets.

Based on what? This would be assuming Ray's growth would function the same way as Scott's, therefore giving them the same abilities. We can't assume Ray would perform the same as Scott based on nothing.

That isn't a good enough advantage which allows him to contend with War Machine?

Not when he lacks damage output, or a way to make efficient use of it against Rhodey. Besides, I don't think he'd use shrinking on Rhodey when he didn't against the ATOM bots in the future.

That fall in Civil War damn near killed Rhodey. Ray flew through a jet at a higher or equal altitude then crash landed and got back up, Rhodey broke his spine. Again Ray fell from an higher altitude and just walked it off like nothing, so his durability is not bad as you think. Also in those two clips Ray was shown to be dogfighting with a jet and robots, his maneuverability isn't bad either.

Wasn't his suit disabled? Either way, Iron Man suits have taken worse damage than what Ray's ATOM suit has taken (Iron Man 1), even performing the same things and shrugging them off (unlike Ray, who was grounded). I mean, Tony in the Mark III went through an F-22, then shot by a tank, and walked it off. I'd hardly think Rhodey's latest suit would be any weaker than that. As for the maneuverability, Ray didn't really dogfight with either the jet or the robots. Rhodey did a better job handling Ultron bots in AoU than Ray did in either of his encounters.

I dont even get this one as Ray has more combat feats than Rhodey.

LoT has made it clear that Ray isn't that great of a fighter, hence the whole reasoning behind the ATOM. Rhodey at least is a Colonel in the Air Force, not to mention actual fighting feats against flying opponents.

It's compressed hard light, but yeah, I agree completely. The problem is, we don't have a way to gauge how fast he would be otherwise. I think he should more or less move at the speed he would normal sized, but it's hard to say for sure.

@stormdriven: Yea I would just assume he is moving at normal speed just bigger. I am not sure how someone that big would look but maybe he looks slow because his fist has to travel such large distances and he isn't any faster? Does that make sense?

@jashro44: I think I know what you're trying to get at. I assumed he would move proportional to his size, so it looks like he would be moving at the same speed both large and normal size. But if it's what you're saying, then he would be moving slow regardless. Right? I think that's what it is lol

Ray takes a solid majority. His shrinking is just way too versatile. He's shrunk to microscopic levels and disabled tech at least on Rhodey's level twice. He could easily just shrink to the point War Machine was no way to harm him, disable the suit, and call it a day. I assume he can grow without the extra power source, just not nearly to the 3,000 or so foot heights he was at last episode, but for now I suppose he needs some more feats there. After Civil War though, I'm not all that convinced Rhodey's Suit is that far above Ray's even at base. Ray certainly seems to have better durability and speed. Shrinking and his experience with disabling technology is what decides this fight in favor of Ray though.

So basically what i made up from the above comments is that War Machine has greater fire power than Ray Palmer and they are more or less equally matched in durability and speed while in normal size.

But Ray Palmer has got lots of other advantages like he can shrink, grow and is kind of a genius. And now after legends of tomorrow he no longer fights like a amateur. He's got considerable experience.

So I'm going with Ray. And I think Ray will defeat Ant man quite easily. Antman is just some guy who shrinks or grows. Ray's suit is like Iron man + Antman.

Besides Brandon Routh is great.

To be honest I'm not sure lol. I was saying he is moving at the same speed but because he is so big it takes his limbs long to get where there going. Its like Ray's punch travels a few hundred ft, and if Ray were to run that distance it would take a while for him to get there. The only difference when he is big is he can cover a lot more ground.

I think we are on the same page. All though yea I guess Ray is slow for his size but I don't think he is slow in general.

Budget my friend, budget.

Those two are by far the most expensive per moment of screen time, firestorm especially.

@stormdriven:

Based on what? This would be assuming Ray's growth would function the same way as Scott's, therefore giving them the same abilities. We can't assume Ray would perform the same as Scott based on nothing.

I mentioned earlier that we are not sure how or if Ray will continue to use the ATOM suit for the purpose of growth. I dont assume Ray's suit function like Scott's own, just that he would have an easier time targeting objects due to the targeting system and Heads up display. As for why he shouldn't be slower, bigger objects appear to move slower due to perception and scaling. The reason why smaller animal/insects perceives humans in slow motion.

Not when he lacks damage output, or a way to make efficient use of it against Rhodey. Besides, I don't think he'd use shrinking on Rhodey when he didn't against the ATOM bots in the future.

He wanted to lead the robots way from the others. Plus sabotaging one wont shut down all.

Wasn't his suit disabled? Either way, Iron Man suits have taken worse damage than what Ray's ATOM suit has taken (Iron Man 1), even performing the same things and shrugging them off (unlike Ray, who was grounded). I mean, Tony in the Mark III went through an F-22, then shot by a tank, and walked it off.

Irrelevant as War Machine didn't do any of that.

I'd hardly think Rhodey's latest suit would be any weaker than that.

Iron Man latest suit in Civil War seem weaker than some of the others.

As for the maneuverability, Ray didn't really dogfight with either the jet or the robots. Rhodey did a better job handling Ultron bots in AoU than Ray did in either of his encounters.

I haven't watched AoU in months so I'll take your word for it.

LoT has made it clear that Ray isn't that great of a fighter, hence the whole reasoning behind the ATOM. Rhodey at least is a Colonel in the Air Force, not to mention actual fighting feats against flying opponents

Yeah, Ray isn't a great fighter but even way back on Arrow he learned how use the suit competently during combat.

@the_kidd: And Ant-Man had gone sub-atomic level in his movie :p

War Machine wins.

@adriusus: how does he hit a sub atomic midget?

Round 1 - Rhodey

Round 2 - Could go either way

@ussj3071: Rhodes is an expert tactician, so he will find a way to win. He can spam missiles, Ex-Wife tech and minigun if he wants to.

@the_kidd:

I mentioned earlier that we are not sure how or if Ray will continue to use the ATOM suit for the purpose of growth. I dont assume Ray's suit function like Scott's own, just that he would have an easier time targeting objects due to the targeting system and Heads up display. As for why he shouldn't be slower, bigger objects appear to move slower due to perception and scaling. The reason why smaller animal/insects perceives humans in slow motion.

That article has more to do with the type of vision that smaller animals possess, since their eyes perceive things at different speeds than humans do.

He wanted to lead the robots way from the others. Plus sabotaging one wont shut down all.

True, but he also mentioned he "now knew what it felt like to be the older model" or something along those line. He wasn't able to keep up with them, and they caught him easily. Either way, he would still have to catch Rhodey, who could probably see him with his own HUD, unless Ray shrinks to the point where he couldn't see him, something he isn't likely to do.

Irrelevant as War Machine didn't do any of that.

How is it not relevant? Why would Tony make suits with worse durability than others, especially for a suit designated "War Machine." I don't see why durability wouldn't be interchangeable between the majority of Iron Man suits.

Yeah, Ray isn't a great fighter but even way back on Arrow he learned how use the suit competently during combat.

Sure, but he still doesn't have combat feats to prove he can adequately fight a suit more advanced (minus the shrinking ability) than his own. The one time he did, he was grounded with a dual blast.

@the_kidd: Haven't read everything but was it ever actually stated Ray could control his giant-growing abilities?

Interesting.

@adriusus: expert tactician where? when? and missiles wont hit a guy smaller than blood cells

Feats for Atom to suggest that he could win this?

That growing giant trick is pretty damn helpful, but i haven't seen that episode, or much of Legends at all.

I don't think war machine was weaker in civil war. He tanked a pretty big exploding truck to the face with no damage at all, Hawkeyes explosive arrows with no damage at all, he only thing that hurt him wa sa blast from an Infinity Stone. He even took out scarlet witch and his and ironmans uppercut knocked giant man down. So Warmachine still takes this

Nah both iron man and war machines armor were significantly weaker.

War machine damaged his spine just from falling out of the air. Consider on Iron Man 2 both him and stark tangle spin through the air and slam into the ground with no injury

Neither civil war suit would stand much chance against Atom, they were that weak. It only took a couple of car's falling on Stark to injure him. Compare that to a tank shell.

@lantian1: If only if OP stated Civil War MCU War Machine version.

IIRC in season 3 of Arrow when the team (with ray and Nyssa I think) go to Nanda Parbat to stop Ra's didn't Ray get shot out of the sky and crater the earth but he was fine?

Round 1: Ray. What's to stop him from shrinking down, entering War Machines suit and screwing up the electronics or shooting him in the eyes or something?

Round 2: Ray even more. And to people who say his Giant version is too slow...when he was running he was literally clearing hundreds of yards with each stride plus he can still fly IIRC. And he still has access to his weapons but they are powered up. He could do the lightning thing he did to Arsenal in season 3 of arrow, but the scale of the attack would be increased exponentially. Afterall, Ray went from like 6ft to around 200ft.

@lantian1: the suit power source was cut off after the hit. It can not adjust itself so the user receive minimum damage so it become a free fall while climbing at high speed. It's a good damn demonstration an unpowered suit can save the user falling from that altitude if you ask me.
The falling car didn't injure him, it merely stop him for a while.

R1: It could go either way

R2: Ray Palmer