The Setting is at twilight. The moon is rising and the sun is setting. Only the exterior of the island is on limit. Entering buildings is not allowed. The location is unpopulated. If a character is knocked into the surrounding waters, they are considered eliminated via BFR.
Rules:
- Please Quote or Reply to the person you are debating with. This avoids confusion as to who you were talking to and makes it easier to pick up arguments if one person has to leave for a while. It is going to be necessary with the number of people that will be arguing at once, so please follow this rule. -Both Teams are aware of the situation. -All characters are "in character" unless otherwise specified. - You ONLY have 25 points to construct your team. You will be disqualified if you are over this amount. -Victory is by death, knockout, BFR or incapacitation. -Team chemistry does come into play. - There is no prep time, and teams have absolutely no knowledge of each other prior to the match. -Characters with guns have unlimited ammo unless specified otherwise. -Characters with bows/throwing knives have unlimited arrows/knives unless specified otherwise. -Characters still need to reload. -Your team MUST consist of at least 2 characters. -You may not use more than 3 add ons for a single character. Team add ons do not contribute to this total. -No tele-dropping, tele-dismemberment, or BFR. -If a debater fails to show up for an extended period of time (greater than a week) then the moderators have a judgment call as to disqualify them. -Winning teams will be immortalized in the , and their teams are off-limits for future tournaments. -Assume characters will not be freaked out or question if another version of them is on the team (aka Winter Soldier and Bucky Cap, Bone claw & adamantium Wolverine, Ult Cap and 616 Cap, Venom Gargan and Scorpion, so on and so on)
Team Dane (Blue Base)
Characters: 5- Captain America (Steve) - Shield. 5- Daredevil - Muramasa, Grenade Launcher, Billy Clubs. 5- Clint Barton - Bow, Arrows and 10 Exploding Arrows.
Good luck to both of you, this should be a great match. I see it basically coming down to bloodlusted pre-bnd Spider-Man VS Bloodlusted DD w/ the m-blade =)
For your humble consideration, the following points:
My team has superior detection and tracking Although you have Spidey's spider-sense, you don't have the means you identify the location or type of enemy you're facing. With Daredevil on my team I can tell exactly where your team is and most likely who. Daredevil should have no trouble identifying Spider-Man and it's also likely the extreme similarity between Ult. Cap and 616 Cap means he'll be able to tell who he is. Furthermore, it's likely due to the enhanced nature of Ult. Cap that his respiratory system is slightly more efficient. As such, DD will be able to tell that he is not regular Cap. It shouldn't matter since the real Cap is standing next to him and with bloodlust it won't affect his morality. Nonetheless, it's worth noting that he can make the distinction. Again, he will probably also know that Spider-Man's physical attributes are higher than usual because of his superhuman stamina will affect the efficiency of his heart and lungs.
On the whole, my team has the advantage of picking and choosing when and where the fight takes place. With telepathic link, grenade launchers and exploding arrows on my side, this could be an important factor. Although Spider-Man has his spider-sense, your Captain America doesn't and in the second or so it would take for your Spider-Man to inform him of the threat, Cap could be blown to pieces. On the whole, this will certainly mean I will get to make the first strike whenever it suits me best. With Steve Rogers, master tactician, that's a situational advantage that shouldn't be sneezed at.
616 Steve Rogers is actually better than Ult. Steve Rogers Controversial statement, maybe. But there are several reasons why 616 Cap is better.
Just because 616 Cap has accuracy, fighting skill and tactical feats doesn't mean Ult. Steve does. He has impressive feats to his name but it isn't reasonable to assume his fighting skills are on the level that has been demonstrated so many times by 616 Cap. Even though Ult. Wolverine and 616 Wolverine are just as similar, it's been shown as highly inaccurate to assume the two are the same. Ult. Hulk vs Ult. Wolverine turned out very differently to 616 Hulk vs 616 Wolverine for instance. It is my position that Ult. Captain America has shown superior physical stats but nothing more. 616 Steve has displayed much, much more impressive feats of accuracy, fighting skill, mental processing, tactics and above all, knowledge of characters. Steve Rogers knows Spider-Man's fighting style back to front. What does Ult. Cap know about Daredevil and 616 Clint Barton, whose fighting style is significantly different to Ult Clint? In a Cap vs Cap match up, 616 Steve has shown very consistently that physical stats are not enough to win against him. He can beat enhanced metahumans by using superior fighting skill and tactical awareness. Examples of fights like this would be: US Agent, Master Man, Calvin Zabo, Grand Director etc. They all have superior physical stats and they've all gone down to 616 Steve. Grand Director and US Agent aren't stupid either, they've shown tactics, fighting skills and physical prowess at least on par with Ult. Cap but they still lost.
Ult. Cap's shield is his greatest weapon and still completely redundant here. Captain America's most important weapon is his shield. 616 Cap has a legendary and unique combination of adamantium and vibranium. It's completely indestructible and is able to absorb powerful impacts such as Thor's hammer. On the other hand, Ult. Cap's shield is made out of standard adamantium, which in that universe is even weaker (Hulk could break it). Although the shield may protect him from certain amounts of regular damage like gunfire, it won't absorb the impact. Explosive Arrows and Grenade Launcher barrages could easily knock him off his feet, even if he managed to block them. Worst of all, the Muramasa Blade has been shown to cut through adamantium like a knife through butter. Ult. Cap isn't fast enough to avoid Daredevil and if he puts his shield up to block, as you imagine he would to any sword attack, the sword will go straight through and take his head off on the other side. Daredevil would have rightful grounds to assume the M-Blade will go through even 616 Cap's shield so it's a sound strategy. With my tactical advantage, it makes sense that DD would go for someone he knows he alone can put down quickly and without fuss.
Captain America could bring it to Spider-Man, let alone with backup from Clint Barton and 5 Hand Ninjas We saw clearly in Civil War that 616 Steve is more than capable of taking Spider-Man down a peg or two, despite Spider-Man's superior physical attributes. Spidey might be enhanced here but it's not enough to overcome Captain America's incredibly disciplined and skilled fighting style. Steve knows Spider-Man's style back to front but Peter has never taken any steps to analyze or work out counter-tactics to Captain America's style. The enhanced post-other stats might give him a bigger physical edge, but this fight isn't a 1 on 1. He has a barrage of exploding arrows and 5 ninja to deal with while Cap is disabling him with nerve strikes.
Relevant Scans
Daredevil can pick out one voice from all the sounds in Hell's Kitchen
Daredevil can tell the age and condition of people from 3 blocks away.
Cap shows an Iron Spidey that physical stats aren't everything.
The Muramasa goes through solid adamantium and Omega Red (who is extremely resistant to adamantium)
first,i gotta say,Dane's post is great with several good points
sadly,i cant reply,because the pics i use are on my laptop and sometimes the internet simply stops working on it (despite my PS3 and Computer working just fine),as such,i cant give a reply right now,as much as i would like to,only tonight or tomorrow
" @Matezoide: ok, let's get this show on the road.
For your humble consideration, the following points:
i hope the consideration part isnt sarcasm :p
@Dane
said:
My team has superior detection and tracking Although you have Spidey's spider-sense, you don't have the means you identify the location or type of enemy you're facing. With Daredevil on my team I can tell exactly where your team is and most likely who. Daredevil should have no trouble identifying Spider-Man and it's also likely the extreme similarity between Ult. Cap and 616 Cap means he'll be able to tell who he is. Furthermore, it's likely due to the enhanced nature of Ult. Cap that his respiratory system is slightly more efficient. As such, DD will be able to tell that he is not regular Cap. It shouldn't matter since the real Cap is standing next to him and with bloodlust it won't affect his morality. Nonetheless, it's worth noting that he can make the distinction. Again, he will probably also know that Spider-Man's physical attributes are higher than usual because of his superhuman stamina will affect the efficiency of his heart and lungs.
On the whole, my team has the advantage of picking and choosing when and where the fight takes place. With telepathic link, grenade launchers and exploding arrows on my side, this could be an important factor. Although Spider-Man has his spider-sense, your Captain America doesn't and in the second or so it would take for your Spider-Man to inform him of the threat, Cap could be blown to pieces. On the whole, this will certainly mean I will get to make the first strike whenever it suits me best. With Steve Rogers, master tactician, that's a situational advantage that shouldn't be sneezed at.
i do admit Daredevil`s detection`s and tracking are superior,and i do not deny he will know who they are fighting,as well,they are stronger However,Spider-Man`s spider-sense can also be used to track people who can be a threat for him,even if said person was never seen or isnt trying to hurt Spider-Man (this is how he found the guy who shot Aunt May during Back in Black) ,additionaly,even if the arrow/grenade isnt shot at Spider-Man,his spider-sense (wich alerts him of not only immediate,but potential danger as well) will active and Spidey will be able to stop the attack with web this would be a great advantage indeed,but it is basicaly impossible to sneak up on Spider-Man and ,even if you are planning to attack now or ever,he will be perfectly aware of any attack they may use against him or Cap (if they are relatively close,thats it)
@Dane
said:
616 Steve Rogers is actually better than Ult. Steve Rogers Controversial statement, maybe. But there are several reasons why 616 Cap is better.
Just because 616 Cap has accuracy, fighting skill and tactical feats doesn't mean Ult. Steve does. He has impressive feats to his name but it isn't reasonable to assume his fighting skills are on the level that has been demonstrated so many times by 616 Cap. Even though Ult. Wolverine and 616 Wolverine are just as similar, it's been shown as highly inaccurate to assume the two are the same. Ult. Hulk vs Ult. Wolverine turned out very differently to 616 Hulk vs 616 Wolverine for instance. It is my position that Ult. Captain America has shown superior physical stats but nothing more. 616 Steve has displayed much, much more impressive feats of accuracy, fighting skill, mental processing, tactics and above all, knowledge of characters. Steve Rogers knows Spider-Man's fighting style back to front. What does Ult. Cap know about Daredevil and 616 Clint Barton, whose fighting style is significantly different to Ult Clint? In a Cap vs Cap match up, 616 Steve has shown very consistently that physical stats are not enough to win against him. He can beat enhanced metahumans by using superior fighting skill and tactical awareness. Examples of fights like this would be: US Agent, Master Man, Calvin Zabo, Grand Director etc. They all have superior physical stats and they've all gone down to 616 Steve. Grand Director and US Agent aren't stupid either, they've shown tactics, fighting skills and physical prowess at least on par with Ult. Cap but they still lost.
damn,i should have choose normal Cap,if i only i had any feats to help Ult.Cap :/,not like this all matters
@Dane
said:
Ult. Cap's shield is his greatest weapon and still completely redundant here. Captain America's most important weapon is his shield. 616 Cap has a legendary and unique combination of adamantium and vibranium. It's completely indestructible and is able to absorb powerful impacts such as Thor's hammer. On the other hand, Ult. Cap's shield is made out of standard adamantium, which in that universe is even weaker (Hulk could break it). Although the shield may protect him from certain amounts of regular damage like gunfire, it won't absorb the impact. Explosive Arrows and Grenade Launcher barrages could easily knock him off his feet, even if he managed to block them. Worst of all, the Muramasa Blade has been shown to cut through adamantium like a knife through butter. Ult. Cap isn't fast enough to avoid Daredevil and if he puts his shield up to block, as you imagine he would to any sword attack, the sword will go straight through and take his head off on the other side. Daredevil would have rightful grounds to assume the M-Blade will go through even 616 Cap's shield so it's a sound strategy. With my tactical advantage, it makes sense that DD would go for someone he knows he alone can put down quickly and without fuss. "
after a little search on Ult.Cap,i can agree with this,his shield is just adamantium and will be destroied by the Muramasa Blade,Cap simply wont expect a sword to cut his shield like this,sadly,i have already lost one of my characthers,but i believe (and i have to) Spider-Man can take then all,i am perfectly aware of the other scan`s ``feats``,no point in quoting then
@Dane
said:
Captain America could bring it to Spider-Man, let alone with backup from Clint Barton and 5 Hand Ninjas We saw clearly in Civil War that 616 Steve is more than capable of taking Spider-Man down a peg or two, despite Spider-Man's superior physical attributes. Spidey might be enhanced here but it's not enough to overcome Captain America's incredibly disciplined and skilled fighting style. Steve knows Spider-Man's style back to front but Peter has never taken any steps to analyze or work out counter-tactics to Captain America's style. The enhanced post-other stats might give him a bigger physical edge, but this fight isn't a 1 on 1. He has a barrage of exploding arrows and 5 ninja to deal with while Cap is disabling him with nerve strikes.
Cap shows an Iron Spidey that physical stats aren't everything.
not at all,there were several factors that prevented Spider-Man from simply one-shotting or webbing up Cap like he did in the past (sadly,i have no scans of this)
1) If Spider-Man had defeated Captain America,what would have happen? he would have been captured and sent to jail,basicaly ending Civil War,there wouldnt be a plot if Spider-Man had won 2) Spider-Man respects Cap way too much and was fighting for a cause he didnt even believe in (hence why he changed sides),specially after the speech Cap gave to him 3) Spider-Man clearly wasnt using his full strength or speed,realisticaly,he is faster than the human eye can follow and can use his webbing in much better ways (including several were Cap wouldnt have been to escape)
also,Spider-Man wasnt losing this fight at all 1) He is way too durable to be hurt by Cap`s punchs unless he uses the shield,wich he didnt 2) He managed to web up Cap`s shield,the only thing that enables him to block his attacks 3) Spider-Man clearly states he beat Cap by fighting ``Man-to-Spider``
Spider-Man is way too fast for the whole team,they cant break the web if Spidey webs their arms and is strong enough to one-shot all of then,he can easly keep distance,as the only one of would be able to hit him is Hawkeye,whose arrows and grenades could be easly stopped by web,Spider-Man can also web the hole where the grenades come out from when Hawkeye is about to use then and *BOOM*,Hawkeye is very injured at best,dead at worst Addtionaly,Spider-Man is know for fighting several enemies at the same time and make use their attacks to his advantage,the only one who can block an attack from Spider-Man (Cap) haves a somewhat tiny shield,wich will be lost if he throws the shield (with you just showed would be useless against Spider-Man,specialy considering they are fighting at a bigger place with less places for the shield to bounce)
scans warned by potential danger (preety much what your team is when the fight starts)
finds the man who shot Aunt May,he never tried to injure Peter and Peter never saw him
even drugged,Spider-Man is able to reach Vermin before the bullets can hit him and still webs then up multiple bullets (and pimp-smacks Harry :p)
nice durabilty feat Spider-Man is going to be moving and hitting even faster than this *where did he go?!*
can use the terrain as weapons,this also shows how much damage he can give when he is angry (note,i said angry,not bloodlusted)
While the X-Men werent that good during this time,this shows he is capable of dodging and attacking/webbing at the same time
since i couldnt find the scan of him webbing up a gun`s barrel.... (also a very nice dodge feat)
being able to fight Spider-Man in the past means nothing when he is bloodlusted (keep in mind he could have one-shotted him),he literaly smacks Kingpin like a pimp smacks a whore,despite having close (and even losing sometimes) fights with Fisk in the past,also shows he can attack faster than Fisk can react
Cap knows and studied Spider-Man,indeed,but he never saw Peter use all his strength,speed and web to its full potential,Spidey fights very different when he isnt bloodlusted compared to when he is
@Matezoide: I'll assume, from here on out, that the debate is my 3 characters + 5 hand ninja vs your Spider-Man.
"1) If Spider-Man had defeated Captain America,what would have happen? he would have been captured and sent to jail,basicaly ending Civil War,there wouldnt be a plot if Spider-Man had won 2) Spider-Man respects Cap way too much and was fighting for a cause he didnt even believe in (hence why he changed sides),specially after the speech Cap gave to him 3) Spider-Man clearly wasnt using his full strength or speed,realisticaly,he is faster than the human eye can follow and can use his webbing in much better ways (including several were Cap wouldnt have been to escape) "
1. If the writers didn't want Captain America captured and didn't think he could realistically beat Spider-Man, they wouldn't have written the fight into the comics to start with. Civil War was pretty consistent with fights in all other areas and Spider-Man himself went on to show significant durability feats just before Punisher rescued him. I don't think Spidey was lowballed here.
2. Spider-Man does respect Cap a lot. But he states through dialogue that he will find any way he can to defeat Rogers. The part where he tags him using the Waldoes shows him saying that he can't possibly beat him "man-to-man" and must instead resort to "man-to-spider" if he wants to win.
3. Captain America isn't a regular human. Every part of him is enhanced by the Super-Soldier Serum. This includes his eye-sight. Captain America can see things regular humans cannot, such as the flight of bullets. He has stated that this is how he dodges gunfire so effortlessly. Also, there are two problems with Spider-Man using his webbing to try to stop Cap. Firstly, Cap can dodge it, even the wide spread shots, he only hit the shield because Cap planned to use it as a distraction. Secondly, he only uses those extreme web feats in desperate situations. If he could web up an entire building without any prep, every time he fights, why doesn't he just coat Scorpion or Doc Oc head to foot? In the scans you posted he's incapable of webbing up an entire missile that presumably threatens to kill innocent people, why wouldn't he if he could?
"also,Spider-Man wasnt losing this fight at all 1) He is way too durable to be hurt by Cap`s punchs unless he uses the shield,wich he didnt 2) He managed to web up Cap`s shield,the only thing that enables him to block his attacks 3) Spider-Man clearly states he beat Cap by fighting ``Man-to-Spider``"
1. If you read the scans, Spider-Man says "Everything's numb from the waist down" and that's with the Iron Spider suit that was completely bullet-proof, which Spider-Man usually is not. He isn't too durable to be hurt by Cap, nerve strikes and precision blows and enough to disable your Spider-Man completely, without the shield. You may also consider that Captain America wasn't fighting at full force here either. Cap also respects Spider-Man and he wasn't trying to kill him. He used attacks designed to disable him. None of this takes away from the fact that if Cap throws his shield, Spider-Man will have to devote his attention entirely to stopping it, meanwhile he has Hawkeye shooting explosive arrows and Daredevil with a grenade launcher on him. He can protect against everything. A web-shield wouldn't stop Cap's shield from going through, he'd have to use webs to pull it out of his path, using both hands.
2. Captain America doesn't need his shield to avoid attacks.
3. Spider-Man doesn't state that he beat him at all and he didn't win that fight. He says it's the only way he can beat him. By using the features of the suit that Cap didn't know about. Before he used the Waldoes Spider-Man didn't land a single hit, implying his usual fighting style was useless.
To address your scans:
I don't doubt the effectiveness of Spider-Man's spider-sense when it comes to detecting danger. On the other hand, he doesn't allow him to detect people in this instance. In that he knew that there was one single person he was looking for and he used his spider-sense to detect that person. He has no prep time or knowledge ahead of time in this fight. The conditions used for detecting are completely different. He will know he's in danger but he won't be able to pin-point the source, the nature of the attack or identify the people involved.
Regarding the scan where Spider-Man stops bullets with a web-shield, you can see the deep penetration of small caliber bullets here. Consider that he is facing a barrage of explosives and grenades (much more powerful than bullets) it is entirely likely, given the close proximity of the bullets to him that explosives would have killed or severely damaged him here.
A lot of those scans are against regular humans. The kind any member of my team could solo.
Mac Gargan is a moron, again, one any member of my team would destroy.
We both know Spider-Man can't defeat Storm, Rogue, Nightcrawler, Colossus and Wolverine. Nightcrawler doesn't even teleport in those scans and Storm doesn't use any of her higher-tier powers.
Dodging lasers by centimeters won't work against exploding projectiles. Spider-Man would lose limbs against grenades and exploding arrows.
I'm not underestimating Spider-Man's speed and agility nor his bloodlusted state. But Cap does know all his moves and with respect, Spidey's never seen Cap, DD or Clint bloodlusted. Clint bloodlusted solo'd half the Dark Avengers and he's easily the least of your worries.
My position:
Spider-Man can't handle everything that is coming up against him. Cap's shield throws, explosive arrows, grenades, a bunch of ninja. Any of these demands Peter's attention and he can only take out one of them at a time. If he engages the ninja he could get decapitated by the shield. If he stops the shield he could get blown apart by explosives, etc.
More than that, I don't honestly think Spider-Man could win against a bloodlusted Daredevil with an M-Blade. Spider-Man might be capable of moving faster than human sight but Daredevil isn't looking to start with. He can't fool DD's senses and he can't trump DD's sword skills with his fists.
Relevant Scans:
Captain America doesn't need his shield to dodge things faster than Spider-Man. Nor can Spider-Man move faster than Steve can see.
Cap explains that he can see faster than regular humans.
Since we're posting Silver Age scans, Daredevil vs Spider-Man:
Also, if you read the dialogue on the last page, Spider-Man says that Daredevil was quickly out of range of his Spider-Sense to detect. DD can't have gotten more than a few rooftops away, implying the range of Spider-Man's danger sense is quite short.
anyway,you mentioned the silver age scan as if it was non-cannon or something,is there something wrong with using Marvel`s silver age scans? i know we often ignore silver age for DC,the same rule applies for Marvel`s?
Marvel is different to DC because there isn't a reality-wide retcon in Marvel. It's just characters change over time. I mean, I have scans of Daredevil beating Namor which shouldn't really happen today. Theres nothing wrong with the scans you posted, they're all things Spider-Man can do. Aside from the X-Men scan. Honestly theres no way Spider-Man could beat Rogue, Storm, Colossus etc.
@Dane: ho,ok,i just wanted to be sure there werent a problem
and to be fair,he didnt beat then,just humilhated with superior speed and webbing,theres a difference :p
anyway,i have to sleep,it is past 10pm here and i have...argh....school,so i cant stay here and make my post i should be able to do it tomorrow,see ya Dane
" @Matezoide: It's ok. Marvel is different to DC because there isn't a reality-wide retcon in Marvel. It's just characters change over time. I mean, I have scans of Daredevil beating Namor which shouldn't really happen today. Theres nothing wrong with the scans you posted, they're all things Spider-Man can do. Aside from the X-Men scan. Honestly theres no way Spider-Man could beat Rogue, Storm, Colossus etc. "
Sorry that i will interrapt your discussion but i think it depents about Rogue.... also no one says that he beat them at all...=]
" @Dane: ho,ok,i just wanted to be sure there werent a problem and to be fair,he didnt beat then,just humilhated with superior speed and webbing,theres a difference :p anyway,i have to sleep,it is past 10pm here and i have...argh....school,so i cant stay here and make my post i should be able to do it tomorrow,see ya Dane "
G'night dude, make the post whenever you have time. It's no rush.
I think Rogue (who had Ms. Marvel's powers at the time) should have had enough speed and strength to smack Spider-Man around easily if she was going all out. Even if she isn't as powerful as current Ms. Marvel she's still tiers above Spider-Man. Storm and Nightcrawler are also clearly holding back. Nightcrawler knocked Spider-Man out with one hit on his own and in the scans he doesn't teleport once. Agility or not, Storm could knock Spider-Man off his feet with a gust of wind easily. Other than that scan, I think everything looks fine.
" @Dane: ho,ok,i just wanted to be sure there werent a problem and to be fair,he didnt beat then,just humilhated with superior speed and webbing,theres a difference :p anyway,i have to sleep,it is past 10pm here and i have...argh....school,so i cant stay here and make my post i should be able to do it tomorrow,see ya Dane "
G'night dude, make the post whenever you have time. It's no rush. I think Rogue (who had Ms. Marvel's powers at the time) should have had enough speed and strength to smack Spider-Man around easily if she was going all out. Even if she isn't as powerful as current Ms. Marvel she's still tiers above Spider-Man. Storm and Nightcrawler are also clearly holding back. Nightcrawler knocked Spider-Man out with one hit on his own and in the scans he doesn't teleport once. Agility or not, Storm could knock Spider-Man off his feet with a gust of wind easily. Other than that scan, I think everything looks fine. "
yeah,there was some PIS there,but i just wanted to show Spider-Man can fight and use his web at the same time :)
i am going to work at my post soon,i will just play some Just Cause 2 demo and write it
first,your team haves almost every advantage,most important i have been feeling lazy lately and i have way too much things to do (study,hang out with friends,etc..)i dont think i can take care of such a large debate,i apologize to you,Dane,i believe you wanted a real debate,but sadly,i cant and i hope you undestand,when i have time i promisse i will engage you in a debate next time,but currently,i simply cant sorry for disapointing everyone,it was fun while it lasted and i know you guys wanted an epic debate,forgive me
@Matezoide: I understand. While it is true that I wanted a solid debate for the final, it's also true that I was working out a strategy while you were still in the Semis. I ran with it and I think it worked out ok. Look forward to anything in the future and my victory takes nothing away from an awesome team that you built.
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