Mara Jade vs Jerec

Vs.

Prime Jerec (unamped)

Thrawn Trilogy Mara

Battle takes place on Alderaan

The callouts:

I've always considered Mara Jade more skilled but Jerec could perhaps be more powerful, it really depends which edge you think is more important.

Even after sustaining a heavy hit from Joruus C'baoth's lightning (powerful enough to knock her to the floor), Mara Jade was strong enough to block a further attack of it only moments later. Combining this with her agility (demonstrated against the clone Luuke as well as C'baoth), I think she has a good chance here.

Mara is confirmed as being deadlier than Jerec, so she's likely the superior swordsman.

Jerec is more powerful due to Mara's connection to the Force faltering because of Sheev's death. Still, she can win here.

Does Mara rival Darth Vader?

His embrace of the Force's dark side gives him powers that rival Vader's.

-Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II Game Manual

I take that accolade with a grain of salt, honestly, especially when Vader's confirmed as being more powerful. And it also says "powers", as in plural, so I take it to mean general abilities in the Force as oppose to actual raw power.

Also, Mara's historically and canonically the Empire's "deadliest agent" besides Vader and Sidious. I think that'd put her up there with Sedriss and Jerec.

@wollfmyth209:

I take that accolade with a grain of salt, honestly, especially when Vader's confirmed as being more powerful.

The quote doesn't contradict that notion, so I'm not sure what the issue is here.

And it also says "powers", as in plural, so I take it to mean general abilities in the Force as oppose to actual raw power.

What do you mean by "general abilities in the Force"? "Powers" being in plural doesn't mean it can't refer to raw power. "His Force powers rival Vader's" is a pretty straightforward statement, no?

Also, Mara's historically and canonically the Empire's "deadliest agent" besides Vader and Sidious. I think that'd put her up there with Sedriss and Jerec.

Quote?

@wollfmyth209: Where was Mara stated as the third most powerful Imperial?

@azronger: Vader is canonically above Jerec, as well as stronger people than him like Joruus by Anh, let alone by Rotj.

@zapan871:

Vader is canonically above Jerec, as well as stronger people than him like Joruus by Anh, let alone by Rotj.

I was not contesting that notion. I does not mean he can't be rivalled, however.

@azronger: The quote doesn't contradict that notion, so I'm not sure what the issue is here.

It is since "rival" means to be close or comparable to someone. Sedriss, someone canonically better than Jerec, is also inferior to Vader and he's also "not worthy of being an apprentice" according to Palpatine, indicating a pretty noticeable disparity between Sedriss and Vader.

Sure, you can argue Jerec is loosely comparable to Vader, but Mara has accolades that would put her in that general range as well.

What do you mean by "general abilities in the Force"? "Powers" being in plural doesn't mean it can't refer to raw power. "His Force powers rival Vader's" is a pretty straightforward statement, no?

Generally, "powers" means multiple abilities in the Force, whereas just "power" means raw power. That's how I interpret it anyway.

Quote?

For both you and @zapan871:

The Empire's deadliest agent married to the Rebel Alliance's greatest hero. The irony is thick, but many on both sides relish the symbolism.

As Luke Skywalker's wife and one of the few Jedi Masters of the New Jedi Order, Mara Jade finds it hard to stay out of the public's eye.

The New Essential Guide to Characters

She isn't more powerful, just deadlier.

@wollfmyth209: So it refers solely to her combat abilities?

@azronger: Well, he can't really be rivaled if his pre prime version is already above everyone else in the galaxy sans Sidious.

@zapan871: Well yeah, I guess. Sidious himself believed that, as well. At one point he noted that "she can be useful in ways Vader can't" or some such sh!t.

@wollfmyth209

It is since "rival" means to be close or comparable to someone. Sedriss, someone canonically better than Jerec, is also inferior to Vader and he's also "not worthy of being an apprentice" according to Palpatine, indicating a pretty noticeable disparity between Sedriss and Vader.

This is acually a pretty good point. But Sidious' words are his own opinion on the matter, whereas the Game Manual is objective. Also, Sedriss' accolade lists him perhaps the Emperor's strongest disciple after Vader, meaning it's not absolute fact. And you could argue Sedriss is only as powerful as he is due to Palpatine's amplification, which Sedriss noted himself. This could be a reason why he doesn't consider Sedriss a worthy apprentice: his natural power and potential is lacking compared to Sidious' other apprentices and candidates, Maul, Dooku, Vader and Luke. In fact, this is most likely the reason, since he was able to stand up to Luke, indicating parity, yet the latter was eagerly accepted as an apprentice by the Emperor, whereas Palpatine didn't think very highly of Sedriss.

Sure, you can argue Jerec is loosely comparable to Vader, but Mara has accolades that would put her in that general range as well.

She isn't more powerful, just deadlier.

Not really. Being the "deadliest" doesn't necessarily refer to combat. Given it says she's the Empire deadliest agent, I take it to mean her overall ability as a spy: a mix of her intellect, infiltration skill, assassination and ambush tactics, etc. And in no way does that indicate parity with Darth Vader as a lightsaber duelist or as a Force wielder.

Generally, "powers" means multiple abilities in the Force, whereas just "power" means raw power. That's how I interpret it anyway

Fair enough, although I think I'll stick to my interpretation.

@zapan871

Well, he can't really be rivaled if his pre prime version is already above everyone else in the galaxy sans Sidious.

Unless Vader grew by a large margin between ANH and RotJ, Jerec could still very well be his rival.

Mara.

@azronger: This is acually a pretty good point. But Sidious' words are his own opinion on the matter, whereas the Game Manual is objective. Also, Sedriss' accolade lists him perhaps the Emperor's strongest disciple after Vader, meaning it's not absolute fact. And you could argue Sedriss is only as powerful as he is due to Palpatine's amplification, which Sedriss noted himself. This could be a reason why he doesn't consider Sedriss a worthy apprentice: his natural power and potential is lacking compared to Sidious' other apprentices and candidates, Maul, Dooku, Vader and Luke. In fact, this is most likely the reason, since he was able to stand up to Luke, indicating parity, yet the latter was eagerly accepted as an apprentice by the Emperor, whereas Palpatine didn't think very highly of Sedriss.

Palpatine's amplification is permanent, actually. It's essentially Sheev imbuing Sedriss with the power of the Dark Side much like how Desann imbued his Reborn. They're no longer passively amped, the amp is part of their own baseline power. Sure, the "perhaps" leaves it open to interpretation but still means he's a more likely candidate than Jerec.

And who better to know his apprentices than Palpatine? Especially when he's the one who literally gave them their power?

Not really. Being the "deadliest" doesn't necessarily refer to combat. Given it says she's the Empire deadliest agent, I take it to mean her overall ability as a spy: a mix of her intellect, infiltration skill, assassination and ambush tactics, etc. And in no way does that indicate parity with Darth Vader as a lightsaber duelist or as a Force wielder.

I mean, a spy isn't deadly, they just gather intel. It could refer to her ambush and assassination tactics, but those weren't Mara's primary objectives. As a Hand, she served to gather intel and only attack if the Emperor wished it so. And if her appearance in SW Tales implies anything, it's that she kills directly in combat. Actually, her comic series also implies that as well.

@azronger:

Unless Vader grew by a large margin between ANH and RotJ, Jerec could still very well be his rival.

Unless you think Jerec can rival C'baoth, a guy who overpowered Luke just one year before DE in a telekinetic contest, then no. Also, Vader only needs to grow noticeably, so Jerec wouldn't be his rival anyway. And, IIRC, that accolade was from Qu Rahn's journal.

@wollfmyth209

Palpatine's amplification is permanent, actually. It's essentially Sheev imbuing Sedriss with the power of the Dark Side much like how Desann imbued his Reborn. They're no longer passively amped, the amp is part of their own baseline power. Sure, the "perhaps" leaves it open to interpretation but still means he's a more likely candidate than Jerec.

Doesn't really alter my point but okay.

And who better to know his apprentices than Palpatine? Especially when he's the one who literally gave them their power?

Someone omniscient, I'd assume. Like the Game Manual, for example.

I mean, a spy isn't deadly, they just gather intel. It could refer to her ambush and assassination tactics, but those weren't Mara's primary objectives. As a Hand, she served to gather intel and only attack if the Emperor wished it so. And if her appearance in SW Tales implies anything, it's that she kills directly in combat. Actually, her comic series also implies that as well.

Scans of her kills? Fair enough on the rest, although it doesn't change the fact that it in no way implies she's a rival of Vader.

@zapan871:

Unless you think Jerec can rival C'baoth, a guy who overpowered Luke just one year before DE in a telekinetic contest, then no.

If he can rival Vader, then he can rival C'baoth, too.

Also, Vader only needs to grow noticeably, so Jerec wouldn't be his rival anyway.

And where is the evidence that he did grow noticeably?

And, IIRC, that accolade was from Qu Rahn's journal.

Is it? I wouldn't know, since I've only seen the accolade in the same form I posted it in, with no context (if there is any) attached. I don't own the Game Manual, you see. But if I could get confirmation, then I'll drop the point.

@azronger: Doesn't really alter my point but okay.

It does since Sidious is comparing the imbued, post amp Sedriss to Vader and still believes him to be unworthy as an apprentice. This same Sedriss is a likely superior to Jerec.

Someone omniscient, I'd assume. Like the Game Manual, for example.

You mean the Strategy Guide? The book designed just to tell you about strategies and game mechancis? The book that starts off like this:

Objective sources placing Sedriss as inferior to Vader, but a superior to Jerec, is all you need to suggest the two aren't rivals.

Scans of her kills? Fair enough on the rest, although it doesn't change the fact that it in no way implies she's a rival of Vader.

I never said she rivals him, just that the accolade implies she's ahead of even Jerec. Also here's some of the scans of her fighting(this is while her Force connection was being dampened due to the Emperor's death at the time, btw):

Gallery

She seems fairly direct to me.

@zapan871:

Unless you think Jerec can rival C'baoth, a guy who overpowered Luke just one year before DE in a telekinetic contest.

When was this exactly?

@azronger:

If he can rival Vader, then he can rival C'baoth, too.

So Jerec is on DE Luke's level as well?

And where is the evidence that he did grow noticeably?

Aside from the fact that his potential is incredibly high and he was growing "ever" stronger after Anh?

Aside from the fact that he was constantly expanding his knowledge and power, and that inferior beings with inferior potential, e.g Ventress and Savage, passively grew noticeably in less time?

Aside from the fact that in Rotj he drained knowledge from Luke, whereas in Anh he failed to do the same with Leia, who is astronomically below Rotj Luke?

Nothing for sure.

Is it? I wouldn't know, since I've only seen the accolade in the same form I posted it in, with no context (if there is any) attached. I don't own the Game Manual, you see. But if I could get confirmation, then I'll drop the point.

I only recall this scan:

@dadivineking:Here:

He hit the floor more or less on his feet, dropping down to land on one knee. His hand reached out, and the lightsaber that had been falling toward the clone suddenly changed direction. It arced toward Skywalker's hand—

And stopped dead in midair. Skywalker strained, the muscles of his hand tightening visibly as his mind stretched out. "Not that way, Jedi Skywalker," C'baoth said reprovingly; and Mara glanced over to see that his hand, too, was stretched out toward the errant lightsaber. The clone, for his part, was just standing there in his brown robe, as if he knew that C'baoth would be on his side in this battle.

Maybe he did. Maybe there was nothing left in that body but an extension of C’baoth’s own mind.

“This duel must be to the death,” C’baoth continued. “It must be weapon against weapon, mind against mind, soul against soul. Anything less will not bring you to the knowledge you must have if you are to properly serve me.”

Skywalker was good, all right. With the strange buzzing pressure in his mind he must have known he couldn’t match C’baoth strength for strength.Mara felt the subtle change in his concentration; and suddenly he swung his own lightsaber over his shoulder, the green-white blade scything toward a point midway along the other lightsaber handle.

But if C’baoth wouldn’t let Skywalker disarm his opponent, he wouldn’t let him destroy the weapon, either. Even as the blade sliced downward, a small object shot out of the shadows to Skywalker’s right, slamming into his shoulder and deflecting his arm just far enough for his blade to sweep through empty air. An instant later the old Jedi had torn the clone’s lightsaber from Skywalker’s mental grip, sending it back across the room to its owner. The clone raised it to en guard position; wearily, Skywalker got to his feet and prepared to continue the battle.

-- The Last Command

Mara Jade also mused that Luke couldn't match Joruus "strength for strength", which is why Luke tried to destroy his clone's lightsaber with his own. That seems to heavily imply C'baoth is above 9 Aby Luke in power. Though in fairness, Luke was initially distracted.

Mara.

Jade for sure

Probably Mara.

@zapan871@azronger I found a noice accolade for Mara:

Emperor Palpatine's favorite Sith, Darth Vader, has a new rival, the 18-year-old Countess Mara Jade Claria, whom Palpatine has schooled in the Force to assume the special agent role of "Emperor's Hand."

Allegiance Novel Publisher's Weekly Summary

If you take blurbs as legitimate, this is pretty gewd.

@wollfmyth209: Why am I under the impression that you're trolling?

@zapan871: :3

But no, seriously, a blurb says Vader "has a new rival" in the form of Mara. I still takes this with a grain of salt, much like how I take Jerec's "rival of Vader" accolade with a grain of salt.

@wollfmyth209: Couldn't "rival" just refer to position/role? Sidious's other adepts can be rivals of Vader in terms of their influence/role/relationship to their Sith master, all without rivalling Vader in power or skill.

Like, Ridley can be a rival of Samus, but I think she could still kick his sorry backside with her arms tied behind her back.

@amethystgravity: No, because Vader as a true, fully-fledged apprentice definitely has more political sway and sway with Palpatine than any of his lower dogs like his Hands or Inquisitors. No Hand can even come close to the amount of influence he has over the galaxy or his position to Palpatine as the top dog enforcer.

Thrawn trilogy Mara? Yeah, Jerec for sure.

Jerec can't see so he won't be seduced, ergo he wins.

Jerec.