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#1 Posted by ThisIsGonnaHurt (37617 posts) - - Show Bio

vs

Before the Battle of the Last Alliance, Sauron was visited by a strange ship in the shape of a thin pyramid. Out of the vessel came a man in black calling himself Darth Vader. He, Sauron, sends the Witch-king, his greatest general, to dispose of Vader while he continues to expand his armies for the wars to come.

Let's say the Witch-king's sword and mace are immune to lightsabers.

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#2 Posted by Vrakmul (23829 posts) - - Show Bio

The witch king can't be killed by men. He takes this. Plus armor doesn't give much protection against weapons like maces.

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#3 Posted by ThisIsGonnaHurt (37617 posts) - - Show Bio

Dreadnaught says:

"The witch king can't be killed by men. He takes this. Plus armor doesn't give much protection against weapons like maces."

All good points. Is this unnaturally unfair in the Witch-king's favor?

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#4 Posted by The Jedi Academy (1 posts) - - Show Bio

The Lord of Sith takes it, The Witch King can not be killed by men But Vader is Half Machine/ Half Man. Plus his Force Powers would destroy the Witch King. Vader Wins this Battle.

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#5 Posted by ThisIsGonnaHurt (37617 posts) - - Show Bio

Post Deleted.

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#6 Posted by Vrakmul (23829 posts) - - Show Bio

The Jedi Academy says:

"The Lord of Sith takes it, The Witch King can not be killed by men But Vader is Half Machine/ Half Man. Plus his Force Powers would destroy the Witch King. Vader Wins this Battle."

When LOTR or D&D refer to men, they mean Humans in general I still think the woman killing the witch king was a stupid exploitation If he is so much as part human, the witch king won't feel squat. Plus his nazgul would paralyze vader in fear. Then the witch king cracks his skull wide open.

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#7 Posted by Asymmetrical (23749 posts) - - Show Bio

wow, I am actually agreeing with Dread for once

gives her thumbs up for her logic

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#8 Posted by Vrakmul (23829 posts) - - Show Bio

The storm troopers are slain and the men of mordor, angnor, and isenguard correct me for any spelling errors I made take the star destroyer and after some trial and error they go blow up all of gondor.

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#9 Posted by ThisIsGonnaHurt (37617 posts) - - Show Bio

Dreadnaught says:

"The storm troopers are slain and the men of mordor, angnor, and isenguard *correct me for any spelling errors I made* take the star destroyer and after some trial and error they go blow up all of gondor. "

Mordor

Angmar

Isengard

But that's a good idea...if it's possible in the first place.

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#10 Posted by Satyrquaze (4539 posts) - - Show Bio

Warsman says:

"Dreadnaught says:
"The witch king can't be killed by men. He takes this. Plus armor doesn't give much protection against weapons like maces."
All good points. Is this unnaturally unfair in the Witch-king's favor?"

Yes. Very much so.

Anakin Skywalker is still a man no matter how much of has been replaced by machine.

I see Vader getting several good hits in, but by definition he can't finish the job.

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#11 Posted by Vrakmul (23829 posts) - - Show Bio

Satyrquaze says:

"The battle is Vader vs. the Witch King, not the Galactic Empire vs. Middle Earth."

the people on the star destroyer get killed. Warsman never did say the star destroyer left after dropping off vader it would be a stupid move

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#12 Posted by the human Juggernaut (7276 posts) - - Show Bio

vader leaves, they bring in the death star, middle earth is obliterated. The end.

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#13 Posted by Satyrquaze (4539 posts) - - Show Bio

The battle is Vader vs. the Witch King, not the Galactic Empire vs. Middle Earth.

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#14 Posted by the human Juggernaut (7276 posts) - - Show Bio

Dreadnaught says:

"the human Juggernaut says:
"vader leaves, they bring in the death star, middle earth is obliterated. The end."

Vader would be dead. "

vader leaves, death star comes and obliterates the planet with vader on it. :)

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#15 Posted by Vrakmul (23829 posts) - - Show Bio

the human Juggernaut says:

"Dreadnaught says:
"the human Juggernaut says:
"vader leaves, they bring in the death star, middle earth is obliterated. The end."

Vader would be dead. "

vader leaves, death star comes and obliterates the planet with vader on it. :)

"

I don't think middle earth is in normal space. Even if it were it would be in another galaxy. Well outside the range of a normal hyperdrive.

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#16 Posted by Vrakmul (23829 posts) - - Show Bio

the human Juggernaut says:

"vader leaves, they bring in the death star, middle earth is obliterated. The end."

Vader would be dead.

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#17 Posted by Vrakmul (23829 posts) - - Show Bio

Warsman says:

"Dreadnaught says:
"the human Juggernaut says:
"Dreadnaught says:
"the human Juggernaut says:
"vader leaves, they bring in the death star, middle earth is obliterated. The end."
Vader would be dead. "
vader leaves, death star comes and obliterates the planet with vader on it. :) "
I don't think middle earth is in normal space. Even if it were it would be in another galaxy. Well outside the range of a normal hyperdrive. "

It's basically its own universe. Don't ask me how the Star Destroyer got there in the first place because I don't know..."

It would take a wormhole. Which would probably close after letting in the star destroyer.

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#18 Posted by Vrakmul (23829 posts) - - Show Bio

Warsman says:

"the human Juggernaut says:
"Dreadnaught says:
"the human Juggernaut says:
"Dreadnaught says:
"the human Juggernaut says:
"vader leaves, they bring in the death star, middle earth is obliterated. The end."
Vader would be dead. "
vader leaves, death star comes and obliterates the planet with vader on it. :) "
I don't think middle earth is in normal space. Even if it were it would be in another galaxy. Well outside the range of a normal hyperdrive. "
then how would vader get there? "

Iuhuh."

I explained already

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#19 Posted by ThisIsGonnaHurt (37617 posts) - - Show Bio

Dreadnaught says:

"the human Juggernaut says:
"Dreadnaught says:
"the human Juggernaut says:
"vader leaves, they bring in the death star, middle earth is obliterated. The end."
Vader would be dead. "
vader leaves, death star comes and obliterates the planet with vader on it. :) "
I don't think middle earth is in normal space. Even if it were it would be in another galaxy. Well outside the range of a normal hyperdrive. "

It's basically its own universe. Don't ask me how the Star Destroyer got there in the first place because I don't know...

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#20 Posted by the human Juggernaut (7276 posts) - - Show Bio

Dreadnaught says:

"the human Juggernaut says:
"Dreadnaught says:
"the human Juggernaut says:
"vader leaves, they bring in the death star, middle earth is obliterated. The end."

Vader would be dead. "

vader leaves, death star comes and obliterates the planet with vader on it. :)

"

I don't think middle earth is in normal space. Even if it were it would be in another galaxy. Well outside the range of a normal hyperdrive. "

then how would vader get there?

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#21 Posted by ThisIsGonnaHurt (37617 posts) - - Show Bio

the human Juggernaut says:

"Dreadnaught says:
"the human Juggernaut says:
"Dreadnaught says:
"the human Juggernaut says:
"vader leaves, they bring in the death star, middle earth is obliterated. The end."
Vader would be dead. "
vader leaves, death star comes and obliterates the planet with vader on it. :) "
I don't think middle earth is in normal space. Even if it were it would be in another galaxy. Well outside the range of a normal hyperdrive. "
then how would vader get there? "

Iuhuh.

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#22 Posted by Vrakmul (23829 posts) - - Show Bio

The results depend on whether or not the witch king has a sword or a mace in his hand. Sword, vader gets cut in half. Mace. Vader's brains splatter on the ground.

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#23 Posted by ThisIsGonnaHurt (37617 posts) - - Show Bio

Dreadnaught says:

"Warsman says:
"the human Juggernaut says:
"Dreadnaught says:
"the human Juggernaut says:
"Dreadnaught says:
"the human Juggernaut says:
"vader leaves, they bring in the death star, middle earth is obliterated. The end."
Vader would be dead. "
vader leaves, death star comes and obliterates the planet with vader on it. :) "
I don't think middle earth is in normal space. Even if it were it would be in another galaxy. Well outside the range of a normal hyperdrive. "
then how would vader get there? "
Iuhuh."
I explained already "

I thought it was more of a theory...sorry...

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#24 Posted by Satyrquaze (4539 posts) - - Show Bio

Dreadnaught says:

"Warsman says:
"the human Juggernaut says:
"Dreadnaught says:
"the human Juggernaut says:
"Dreadnaught says:
"the human Juggernaut says:
"vader leaves, they bring in the death star, middle earth is obliterated. The end."
Vader would be dead. "
vader leaves, death star comes and obliterates the planet with vader on it. :) "
I don't think middle earth is in normal space. Even if it were it would be in another galaxy. Well outside the range of a normal hyperdrive. "
then how would vader get there? "
Iuhuh."
I explained already "

Regardless of how he got there, if he did and fought the Witch-King in single combat, he would lose.

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#25 Posted by adamgator05 (7 posts) - - Show Bio

the witch king wins vader would not be able to even get a single hit the witch king has a sword flail fell beast horse and 9 other nazgul on his side if he was about to loose he would call them for help

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#26 Edited by CourtoftheOwls (94 posts) - - Show Bio
@adamgator05 said:

the witch king wins vader would not be able to even get a single hit the witch king has a sword flail fell beast horse and 9 other nazgul on his side if he was about to loose he would call them for help

8 Nazguls. He's the Ninth. (I know that this is 2 years old at least)

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#27 Posted by Mije_101 (1502 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader crushes him into a ball.

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#28 Posted by Doctor_Vader (206 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader is a cyborg, not a man. He wins.

Jokes aside, the Witch King, despite being way above a peak human, still does not have the feats to keep uo with Legends Vader. You'll need a Maia to beat him.

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#29 Posted by USSJ3071 (1059 posts) - - Show Bio

witch king does not need to "keep up". you cant lightsaber slice a spectral non alive entity. you cant choke it you cant push it and hope to do much.

only chance is sith magic.

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#30 Edited by YousufKhan1212 (459 posts) - - Show Bio

The Witch King hasn't got a physical form that Vader could harm, all what Vader could do is scare him off with his lightsaber by burning stuff and throwing it at the Witch King, but that's really it because the Witch King could come back.

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#31 Posted by RogueShadow (18814 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader.

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#32 Posted by echostarlord117 (2547 posts) - - Show Bio

Darth Vader can't kill him.

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#33 Posted by theCrazyBean (384 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader defeats WK a couple times (burning him, etc) but after some seconds he will come back until in any round, maybe the first round, meybe the 5th WK kills Vader.

Darth Vader has no Way if killing WK.

..............Aclaration..............

For people saying Vader could kill WK because hi is only half human: No man can kill WK, This means humans. Actually in the books is Merry (a hobbit, not a human) the one who kills WK When he stabs him in the back (with a magic sword created during the Nazgul wars - Wars the Nazgul fought When they were still humans, the real name is not Nazgul wars, it's just that I cant remember the real name :v) When the woman "kills" WK he was actually alredy death.

In conclusion, WK wins

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#34 Posted by RogueShadow (18814 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader defeats WK a couple times (burning him, etc) but after some seconds he will come back until in any round, maybe the first round, meybe the 5th WK kills Vader.

Darth Vader has no Way if killing WK.

..............Aclaration..............

For people saying Vader could kill WK because hi is only half human: No man can kill WK, This means humans. Actually in the books is Merry (a hobbit, not a human) the one who kills WK When he stabs him in the back (with a magic sword created during the Nazgul wars - Wars the Nazgul fought When they were still humans, the real name is not Nazgul wars, it's just that I cant remember the real name :v) When the woman "kills" WK he was actually alredy death.

In conclusion, WK wins

This is not true, TWK can be killed by man or woman of any species, the prophecy simply states that he wouldn't be.

Glorfindel's prophecy was as follows:

"Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."

In Tolkien's Legendarium:

  • Man = Human.
  • man = Male.

Glorfindel meant male, not humans. Merry's Barrow Blade weakened him to the point where he could be harmed, then Eowyn finished him off.

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#35 Edited by theCrazyBean (384 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: No, men= human. No man OR WOMAN can kill him.

That's why at the end of the battle Eowyn said "I'll have no glory from This", because she wasn't the one who killed The WK.

He didn't got "weakened to the point where he could be harmed", he was already death When Eowyn "finished" him.

Eowyn killing him only happens in the movies because Peter Jackson though "man=male", in the books it's pretty clear he was killed by Merry.

once he was injured by Merry's sword his (lets call it) soul was destroyed.

Another example of elves using "man" to say "humans" "The age if elves has came to the end, now the world belongs to man"

Or by orcs "The age of man has finished, now it's the age of orcs!" Yeah, they don't mean "the age of males humans has ended" but "the age of humans has ended"

This was much better explained in the books. Merry had picked up his sword (actually a dagger, but he's a Hobbit so it was size-appropriate) in the Barrow-downs near the Shire. (The entire Barrow-downs part of Fellowship was removed for the film -- it took place between the Hobbits' first encounter with the Nazgûl on horseback and their arrival in Bree.) The dagger had originally been forged in Westernesse, for the specific purpose of fighting the forces of evil:

"Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor." - Aragorn

Another detail to note: Sauron sent the Lord of the Nazgûl, to fight the Northern Dúnedain, located in Arnor (to the North of Middle Earth). He founded the kingdom of Angmar and named himself 'The Witch-King of Angmar'. He gathered men and orcs to him and attacked the Northern Dúnedain, who got the Elves to help them.

The warriors who fell in that conflict were buried in the barrows, which were not evil places until the Witch-King sent evil spirits to occupy them. The long and the short of it is that the weapons that were buried with them were specifically forged (and enchanted, or at least it was intimated) to battle the forces of Angmar and even the Witch-King himself. That is why that blade in particular is anathema to the Witch-King.

I've seen debates where people argue for that reason that Merry's blow was what actually killed the Witch-King, and Éowyn merely gave the coup-de-grace (I'm kindda part of This group). (After all, isn't a Hobbit not a man?) Regardless, it's a nice example of the level of intricacy Tolkien regularly employed.

You want to lose yourself in a very well organized and comprehensive Tolkien-Lore repository, google 'Encyclopedia of Arda

However it was Marry's attack (and his magic blade) the one who killed WK or weakened him to get killed, Vader doesn't have that sword and his láser won't do anything here, WK still wins

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#36 Posted by RogueShadow (18814 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: No, men= human. No man OR WOMAN can kill him.

That's why at the end of the battle Eowyn said "I'll have no glory from This", because she wasn't the one who killed The WK.

He didn't got "weakened to the point where he could be harmed", he was already death When Eowyn "finished" him.

Eowyn killing him only happens in the movies because Peter Jackson though "man=male", in the books it's pretty clear he was killed by Merry.

once he was injured by Merry's sword his (lets call it) soul was destroyed.

Whenever referring to the race of Men or a particular race of Men, Tolkien capitalises:

"'We help as we can. Wild Men have long ears and long eyes; know all paths. Wild Men live here before Stone-houses; before Tall Men come up out of Water.'"

and:

"He gave up wandering about and minding the affairs of Men and Elves, some time ago"

The capitalised version, 'Men' is treated in the same way as 'Elf' or 'Dwarf' or 'Orc', it's a collective term for a race.

Whenever referring to a group of males, he specifically uses a lower-case 'm'.

For example:

"Fifteen of my men I lost, and twelve horses alas! For the Orcs were greater in number than we counted on. Others joined them."

Or:

"There sat many men in bright mail, who sprang at once to their feet and barred the way with spears."

To name a few. I don't recall Eowyn saying that to be honest.

The spell that bound him to the body and gave him such power was broken and thus TWK was vastly weakened, but he was not 'dead' until Eowyn destroyed his physical form. She could not have defeated him without Merry, as the blade of the Westernesse seemed to strike in both the seen and unseen realms, but it was Eowyn that finished the job. Tolkien even refers to TWK's wounding at the hands of Merry as a 'bitter' one not a fatal one.

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#37 Posted by HitTheAssasin (805 posts) - - Show Bio

Witch King wins this

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#38 Posted by theCrazyBean (384 posts) - - Show Bio
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#39 Posted by RogueShadow (18814 posts) - - Show Bio

@thecrazybean: Vader, I really don't think TWK has the feats to contend, the only argument would be based on a NLF concerning his durability in my opinion.

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#40 Posted by theCrazyBean (384 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by RogueShadow (18814 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: How do you think would Vader kill WK?

OP doesn't say he needs to kill him, but he can win via Ragdolling, lightabers/speed blitz etc.

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#42 Posted by YousufKhan1212 (459 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: How do you rag doll something that isn't a physical being? The closest thing the Witch King has to being a physical being is his cloak and armour, and if Vader decides to remove it, it won't do much.

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#43 Posted by WollfMyth209 (8332 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader. Theoretically he's a cyborg, so the prophecy should apply.

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#44 Edited by RogueShadow (18814 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: How do you rag doll something that isn't a physical being? The closest thing the Witch King has to being a physical being is his cloak and armour, and if Vader decides to remove it, it won't do much.

He can ragdoll the physical aspects, armour and cloak, for all intents and purposes they are The Witch King... obviously he can't permanently kill him as he exists in the unseen world and would eventually reform, but destroying him and forcing him to reform later would qualify as a ko in my opinion, and therefore a win. If you want to go by permanent death you may as well put Vader up against Nearly Headless Nick.

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#45 Posted by YousufKhan1212 (459 posts) - - Show Bio
@yousufkhan1212 said:

@rogueshadow: How do you rag doll something that isn't a physical being? The closest thing the Witch King has to being a physical being is his cloak and armour, and if Vader decides to remove it, it won't do much.

He can ragdoll the physical aspects, armour and cloak, for all intents and purposes they are The Witch King... obviously he can't permanently kill him as he exists in the unseen world and would eventually reform, but destroying him and forcing him to reform later would qualify as a ko in my opinion, and therefore a win. If you want to go by permanent death you may as well put Vader up against Nearly Headless Nick.

Yeah I know he could rag doll the physical aspects, but how is he going to use them to harm the Witch King? The best he can do is throw them at him.

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#46 Posted by americanspeeddemon (3087 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: I'm pretty sure the prophecy is that he wouldn't be killed by a man not that he couldn't be. Similarly to the prophecy in Harry potter that claimed harry or voldemort would kill the other. This doesn't mean voldemort can't be killed some other way just that he wouldn't.

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#47 Posted by GIliad_ (1465 posts) - - Show Bio

I always interpreted the no man can kill me to be foresight as oppose to fact, more a man won't kill you than can't. As for the battle, well I think there's a lot to consider particularly wether or not Vader is vulnerable to the Black Breath or if he's capable of harming the King of Angmar. I can't see a lightsaber being an effective weapon and the force is subjective.

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#48 Edited by RogueShadow (18814 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow said:
@yousufkhan1212 said:

@rogueshadow: How do you rag doll something that isn't a physical being? The closest thing the Witch King has to being a physical being is his cloak and armour, and if Vader decides to remove it, it won't do much.

He can ragdoll the physical aspects, armour and cloak, for all intents and purposes they are The Witch King... obviously he can't permanently kill him as he exists in the unseen world and would eventually reform, but destroying him and forcing him to reform later would qualify as a ko in my opinion, and therefore a win. If you want to go by permanent death you may as well put Vader up against Nearly Headless Nick.

Yeah I know he could rag doll the physical aspects, but how is he going to use them to harm the Witch King? The best he can do is throw them at him.

In the books the Witch King doesn't exist without the physical form, he has no power, he's just a spectre. Unless you're thinking of that scene where the Nazgul fight in the Hobbit film? In which case they still got taken out in the end, Vader could easily replicate that.