Lightsaber Form Battle

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It's as simple as this. One Master from each of the seven traditional lightsaber forms will enter into a seven-way slugfest. Your goal is to debate as to which lightsaber form will prevail if they were all pitted against eachother simultaneously. Here are the stipulations:

  • All combatants are young human males. They will be identical clones of each other right down to every cell in their body. All just as strong, fast and durable as each other. This is a pure test of lightsaber form.
  • No Force attacks will be used here. In fact, you needn't mention the Force at all really, since this is more of a discussion about which form will prevail. For the sake of it though, every combatant is equally capable in the Force overall.
  • They are all 100% equally skilled and are 100% knowledgeable on their form. They have perfected their form to the highest degree possible.
  • Combatants will have to use their form, and their form alone, to win. If they lose their lightsaber, they can run over and pick it up physically. This means no physical strikes.

Combatants

Form I - Shii-Cho

  • Single lightsaber
  • Jedi

Form II - Makashi

  • Single lightsaber
  • Jedi

Form III - Soresu

  • Single lightsaber
  • Jedi

Form IV - Ataru

  • Single lightsaber
  • Jedi

Form V - Djem So

  • Single lightsaber
  • Jedi

Form V - Shien

  • Single lightsaber
  • Jedi

Form VI - Niman

  • Dual wielding lightsabers
  • Jedi

Form VII - Vaapad

  • Single lightsaber
  • Jedi

Form VII - Juyo

  • Single lightsaber
  • Sith

Location - Petranaki Arena

No Caption Provided

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ShootingNova

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Probably Soresu because of how difficult to bypass its defenses. It would at least require another Form user to devote himself entirely to the Soresu practitioner, which would leave him open to being attacked by others. Other lightsaber forms like Makashi, Ataru, Djem So and Juyo are not so well suited to battling multiple opponents at once and they could get overwhelmed. Niman could potentially last the longest as well.

Also... why no Form V - Shien?

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Also... why no Form V - Shien?

Well, isn't Shien just Djem So but with a heavier focus on deflecting blaster bolts? I suppose I could add in all of the variation forms like Shien, Juyo, Jar Kai. Strong style, Medium Style and Fast Style? Trakata?

I could also add in Form Zero and Dun Moch. LOL.

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ShootingNova

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@i_like_swords: You shouldn't add the forms that aren't used often simply because we don't have enough information on them.

Shien is a different variant of Djem So and would be better used in this scenario.

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laflux

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Ataru- should be really good because it incorporates alot of evasive movements which would be effective when fighting multiple enemies. It also works well against multiple Enemies.

Given the stipulations of the Battle- I want to say Niman will be effective. Seeing as it has elements from all seven forms of Saber Combat, it should help in reading the moves of the other opponents. However it depends. Are we taking we assuming that the clones are only knowledgeable on the forms that they have mastered? If not (which is more realistic), then that takes alot of Niman's advantage away especially since force ability is not allowed. Though it does open up Jar Kai duel blading, which helps against mulitple oppenents....

Soresu would also be pretty good from a mindset and fighting style. Allow others to tire themselves out, and swoop in for the kill....

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ShootingNova

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#7  Edited By ShootingNova
@laflux said:

Ataru- should be really good because it incorporates alot of evasive movements which would be effective when fighting multiple enemies. It also works well against multiple Enemies.

No, it doesn't. It is best suited for single combat, and it was stated by Yoda that only a true master of Ataru could face multiple opponents and win.

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laflux

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@laflux said:

Ataru- should be really good because it incorporates alot of evasive movements which would be effective when fighting multiple enemies. It also works well against multiple Enemies.

No, it doesn't. It is best suited for single combat, and it was stated by Yoda that only a true master of Ataru could face multiple opponents and win.

My bad, I guess I was so used to see Yoda doing so well with ataru I though it would work, not forgetting how powerful he is in the first place......

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deactivated-5e8a1f5fafc4e

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@laflux said:

Are we taking we assuming that the clones are only knowledgeable on the forms that they have mastered? If not (which is more realistic), then that takes alot of Niman's advantage away especially since force ability is not allowed. Though it does open up Jar Kai duel blading, which helps against mulitple oppenents....

I will say that everyone will have basic knowledge of every form (like what you'd read in the Star Wars Encyclopedia), but will only be using their own form.

@laflux said:

Ataru- should be really good because it incorporates alot of evasive movements which would be effective when fighting multiple enemies. It also works well against multiple Enemies.

No, it doesn't. It is best suited for single combat, and it was stated by Yoda that only a true master of Ataru could face multiple opponents and win.

  • They are all 100% equally skilled and are 100% knowledgeable on their form. They have perfected their form to the highest degree possible.
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ShootingNova

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@laflux: For the record, this was said by Zez-Kai Ell, Vrook Lamar and Yoda respectively:

"Ataru is the name given to the movements of this form—though it is aggressive, it is focused, and its best use is in combat against a single opponent."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"This form is Ataru. Because it is an aggressive fighting style, you should only use it against single opponents."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"Against multiple enemies, only a true Ataru master will prevail."

Source: The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force
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ShootingNova

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#11  Edited By ShootingNova

  • They are all 100% equally skilled and are 100% knowledgeable on their form. They have perfected their form to the highest degree possible.

Too ambiguous and game-mechanic-like. None of this makes sense realistically, and even then, mastery of Ataru does not make it good against multiple opponents, merely capable of fighting multiple opponents without as much hindrance as a less skilful practitioner.

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said:

  • They are all 100% equally skilled and are 100% knowledgeable on their form. They have perfected their form to the highest degree possible.

Too ambiguous and game-mechanic-like. None of this makes sense realistically, and even then, mastery of Ataru does not make it good against multiple opponents, merely capable of fighting multiple opponents without as much hindrance as a less skilful practitioner.

Meh.

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BeaconofStrength

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From my limited knowledge on Star Wars, I want to say the Vaapad form wins; I could be entirely wrong, since I'm still learning about the Star Wars EU.

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@beaconofstrength: Vaapad isn't a bad shout. It's one of the most aggressive and offensively effective lightsaber forms, and it's only real weakness is that it leaves the user open to Force attacks - which aren't present here. It doesn't have the greatest defence, though, which lets it down somewhat.

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ShootingNova

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@i_like_swords: It's also more focused against single opponents and is designed to kill others quickly, so an extended fight could be detrimental for it, especially against multiple duelists.

To be fair, since usage of Form VII requires mastery of multiple other lightsaber forms, the practitioner could have an edge in knowledge of other forms.

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@shootingnova: True.

I kind of don't want there to be a knowledge edge for anyone here. I might just give everyone full knowledge on the core concepts and maneuvers of each form just for simplicities sake.

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JakeN7

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No Force? Well Niman's out. :/

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@jaken7 said:

No Force? Well Niman's out. :/

It's still the most practical and balanced form! A Niman practitioner could potentially wait this entire thing out.

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JakeN7

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#19  Edited By JakeN7

@i_like_swords: True. He could casually defend himself while everyone else kills each other. Niman has no weaknesses, but taking away Force usage completely dissolves any offensive advantage it would've had. Once there's only one other dude left though (unless the remaining two besides Niman miraculously kill each other at the same time), Niman gets wrecked.

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BoringPerson

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#20  Edited By BoringPerson

Soresu would win because it's best suited for a free for all.

Shii cho should do much better than it would in a duel because it deals well with multiple opponents.

Makashi/Diem So/Shien/Ataru/Vaapad should be rather poor in a free for all.

Special mention for Niman Jar Kai, it's defense is theoretically superior to Soresu in a free for all, though not in a duel. Honestly, I'd take Niman Jarkai in a duel too... though by an extremely slight majority.

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dondave

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#21  Edited By dondave

Soresu

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dondave

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@shootingnova If the "Clone" Jedi are 100% knowledgeable on their form, wouldn't they be considered a master of said form? Therefore wouldn't the Ataru master be able to engage multiple opponents?

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BoringPerson

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@dondave: Engage, but not favorably. It'd be like comparing how long Qui Gon would last against two Maul's to how long AotC Obi Wan would last vs two Maul's.

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ShootingNova

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@dondave: Of course they can engage multiple opponents, but they won't be good against multiple opponents. I was correcting an assertion that Ataru benefited from facing multiple opponents at once. That was all.

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Master_Speed

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I think Soresu has the best chance here. Especially since you are facing 7 opponents of your skill, defence would be the best strategy. I'm sure master of Soresu would be in the last 3.

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Soresu.

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Penderor

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#27  Edited By Penderor

Soresu can face any form because it has no direct counter. Its good for duel, multiple opponents and blaster fire.

Otherwise I would go with Niman (If the Force was allowed) or Djem So.

Juyo and Vaapad are also excellent but I think you run fast stamina (same for Ataru).

Makashi user needs to be very healthy if he has to stand against powerful strokes of some forms.

Shii-Cho is a bit risky.

Jar-Kai dual blade fancing (staff and duals) are probably the best choices in free for all.

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KnightOfZero

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im im thinking either form 3 or form 5. Because they are both defensive styles, they can outlast their opponents to find an opening to strike while not giving the others an opening on them. Form 3 might take it because form 5 focuses on blocking and doing a quick retaliation strike while form 3 is straight blocking, so they wont give form 5 a time to strike back, forcing him to go on the offensive, which is slightly more difficult for him

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Jacthripper

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#29  Edited By Jacthripper

Form 5 or Form 6

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Eisenfauste

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Hmmm so either soresu: defensive

or Vapaad: offensive

If the battle between them went a certain way I could see the vapaad user facing off against the soresu user in the end, I'll give it to vapaad.

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@penderor: Isn't Makashi the thematic counter for Soresu?

Pure Defense being overcome because of its predictable nature?

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Eisenfauste

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@boringperson: It is more of a "counter" for Sii-cho if anything, considering cho focuses on defending against multiple blades/opponents, while makashi is 1v1 and focuses on quick parries, and thrusts.

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Easternwind

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#33  Edited By Easternwind

I could see

Form 1 doing well here.

I could also see Form 3 doing very well.

Niman could do well , Due to Jar Kai

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ShootingNova

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#34  Edited By ShootingNova

I doubt Form I would be the very good here. It is useful against multiple opponents, but it is also less acclimated towards dueling as a whole. More dueling centric-forms, such as Makashi, Ataru, Djem So and Juyo will all be more practical in this situation, as well as being effective against Shii-Cho. Form III will be capable of withstanding anything a Shii-Cho duelist would send at him, and a Form VI user should be able to do the same.

Likewise, Form II is a dueling-centric form, but suffers against multiple opponents. Dooku's mastery of the form (and lightsaber combat as a whole), when supplemented by his mastery of varying other traditional and untraditional fighting styles, allowed him to face multiple opponents at once, but the Makashi user here does not have mastery over other forms, and Dooku has never faced so many other lightsaber duelists at once either. It could last, because a skilful Makashi practitioner can capitalize on mistakes and, instead of attacking them all at once, take out the most vulnerable duelists first, but I doubt it would be the ultimate victor.

I still support Form III because the offensive capacity required to break its defense, if at all possible, would require utter detraction of concentration from the rest of the fight and render one at the mercy of all the other five duelists, a risk I do not believe any skilful combatant would take, and I find the chances of multiple duelists taking on the Soresu fighter at once just as unlikely. Therefore, I'd support Soresu on the account of outlasting the other forms. It would require too much devotion to defeat the Soresu user, which would never happen except at the end of the fight, between only two combatants. However, Soresu's form being based on minimal energy expenditure and productive fighting would leave the Soresu user more efficient as a swordsman by the end of the fight. Makashi does follow a similar principle of limited energy expenditure, but it is also much more prone to being overwhelmed, either by sheer numbers or overwhelming physical kinetic force (Djem So), and otherwise overwhelming offensiveness, such as Juyo, and there is a strong chance of something along the lines of that occurring.

Regarding other forms, Ataru is less-suited to fighting multiple duelists, and its excessive energy expenditure through needless acrobatics and other lithe performances would tire the Ataru duelist first out of the entire group. Djem So is strong in that it is suited to dueling, can potentially overwhelm Makashi if the two come to fight, and is both offense and defense-oriented. However, it is still mostly stylized for single combat (not that it is entirely inefficient against multiple combatants, but there is the chance of the Djem So user being overwhelmed) and its lack of mobility may be a hindrance. It could perform well.

Niman I see as having a high chance due to its balance and versatility. Its lack of strengths or weaknesses grants it a very balanced fighting style, and usually the greatest drawback to the form is that the user is only mediocre in every aspect, but with this purportedly perfect mastery, this can cause the Niman practitioner to be good at every area, making him an amazing fighter (as Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force suggests), but a lack of specialization in any one area can stop the Niman user from winning. Form VII is incredibly deadly, but it is focused on ending single combat quickly. However, the situation here is not in the Form VII practitioner's favor, and he could quite possibly be overwhelmed due to having to face multiple fighters at once, and on top of Juyo not being appropriate for such situations, it is also offense-oriented, which hinders the duelist's ability to defend himself (but the defense of Form VII is not necessarily poor either). As a whole, though, I doubt Form VII would be the victor because the scenario is not very appropriate for the form.

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Easternwind

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#35  Edited By Easternwind

@shootingnova said:

I doubt Form I would be the very good here. It is useful against multiple opponents, but it is also less acclimated towards dueling as a whole. More dueling centric-forms, such as Makashi, Ataru, Djem So and Juyo will all be more practical in this situation, as well as being effective against Shii-Cho. Form III will be capable of withstanding anything a Shii-Cho duelist would send at him, and a Form VI user should be able to do the same.

Likewise, Form II is a dueling-centric form, but suffers against multiple opponents. Dooku's mastery of the form (and lightsaber combat as a whole), when supplemented by his mastery of varying other traditional and untraditional fighting styles, allowed him to face multiple opponents at once, but the Makashi user here does not have mastery over other forms, and Dooku has never faced so many other lightsaber duelists at once either. It could last, because a skilful Makashi practitioner can capitalize on mistakes and, instead of attacking them all at once, take out the most vulnerable duelists first, but I doubt it would be the ultimate victor.

I still support Form III because the offensive capacity required to break its defense, if at all possible, would require utter detraction of concentration from the rest of the fight and render one at the mercy of all the other five duelists, a risk I do not believe any skilful combatant would take, and I find the chances of multiple duelists taking on the Soresu fighter at once just as unlikely. Therefore, I'd support Soresu on the account of outlasting the other forms. It would require too much devotion to defeat the Soresu user, which would never happen except at the end of the fight, between only two combatants. However, Soresu's form being based on minimal energy expenditure and productive fighting would leave the Soresu user more efficient as a swordsman by the end of the fight. Makashi does follow a similar principle of limited energy expenditure, but it is also much more prone to being overwhelmed, either by sheer numbers or overwhelming physical kinetic force (Djem So), and otherwise overwhelming offensiveness, such as Juyo, and there is a strong chance of something along the lines of that occurring.

if that second part was referring to me (prolly wasnt, but I brought up both form 1 and 2 up) I actually made a typo, I meant form 3 actually.

I agree with your analysis

Also , they would be as skilled as Dooku,, due to the OP so the multiple opponents thing would be less of a weakness, but still a weakness, due to the things you mention, such as being unable to supplement

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ShootingNova

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@easternwind: I was mostly addressing the thread as a whole. I've updated my post to address all forms now.

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Easternwind

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@easternwind: I was mostly addressing the thread as a whole. I've updated my post to address all forms now.

Cool I will read it, I just thought I would take the opportunity to clear that up, As I do agree form 3 would do really well.

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Penderor

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@boringperson: The question is if you can penetrate that defense. Yes makashi is good against Soresu but its not a direct counter I think.

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alexander121793

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If anybody needs any extra info about the lightsaber forms here is a link to a site that has a huge collection of information on them: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat

I have a question even though the saber duelist using makashi using one saber is he allowed to use a curved hilt lightsaber. It's a variation of the standard lightsaber traditionally used by makashi duelist's (most notably count Dooku). Here's a a link to the info about the curved hilt lightsaber: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Curved-hilt_lightsaber

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Sy8000

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#40 Sy8000  Online

At times like this I really wish I knew about Star Wars.

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MrUnsmiley

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I would think that the Makashi master would come out on top, since he's the most adept at dueling other lightsaber wielders in general. Heck, that's what the form was explicitly made for.

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alexander121793

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#42  Edited By alexander121793

@penderor:

In my opinion I think a Makashi user may in fact have an advantage over the Soresu user. It has been pointed out by various sources that while Soresu has great defenses it is not good at actually going on the offensive. In fact the description on the official star wars website (before it was removed when they updated the site and opted to give a link to the wiki instead) states that it is best to combine Soresu with an more aggressive form to overcome that particular weakness. While a master could overcome that flaw if it actually came down to it I think the Soresu user would be at a disadvantage.

I actually think that the Makashi user may in fact win this fight because it has been stated by multiple sources to be the saber form most devoted towards saber to saber combat (it was in fact created solely for that purpose).

Makashi has three glaring weaknesses however which I will attempt to explain:

  • It is horrible at blaster bolt deflection and the curved hilt lightsaber has been known to only amplify this weakness because of the curve of the blade. This weakness is in fact why Form II was developed in the first place. This weakness however does not apply here because as the rules of the fight stated the combatants are only using lightsabers.
  • One of its other weaknesses is that it has been stated to have trouble against multiple opponents. Also while this is able to be overcome by masters of the form by using their footwork and agility to divide up and outmaneuver multiple fighters this weakness still somwehat applies. You can see this tactic when Dooku fights Anaken and Obi Wan If the other duelist's can avoid being divided up and outmaneuvered by the form II duelist they will be able to take advantage of this weakness.
  • Its most glaring weakness however is that it lacks the kinetic energy to match the strong blows of the Forms V and Form VII and its defenses can be easily overpowered by their strong blows. In fact this was stated to be the reason why Dooku lost to Anaken in the movie. While this can be somewhat overcome by tiring out and outmaneuvering the Form V and Form VII duelist if they actually manage to get a hit in they should have no problem no overpowering the Form II duelist's defenses and beating them.

If you need more info you can look it up here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_II:_Makashi

So depending on the circumstances I think the Makashi duelist actually may have the best chances of winning.

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Penderor

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@alexander121793: I was always thinking that if I would be Jedi I would use Soresu and Ataru combo. Or if I had any chance to master something, it would be Niman.

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Easternwind

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@penderor:

In my opinion I think a Makashi user may in fact have an advantage over the Soresu user. It has been pointed out by various sources that while Soresu has great defenses it is not good at actually going on the offensive. In fact the description on the official star wars website (before it was removed when they updated the site and opted to give a link to the wiki instead) states that it is best to combine Soresu with an more aggressive form to overcome that particular weakness. While a master could overcome that flaw if it actually came down to it I think the Soresu user would be at a disadvantage.

I actually think that the Makashi user may in fact win this fight because it has been stated by multiple sources to be the saber form most devoted towards saber to saber combat (it was in fact created solely for that purpose).

Makashi has three glaring weaknesses however which I will attempt to explain:

  • It is horrible at blaster bolt deflection and the curved hilt lightsaber has been known to only amplify this weakness because of the curve of the blade. This weakness is in fact why Form II was developed in the first place. This weakness however does not apply here because as the rules of the fight stated the combatants are only using lightsabers.
  • One of its other weaknesses is that it has been stated to have trouble against multiple opponents. Also while this is able to be overcome by masters of the form by using their footwork and agility to divide up and outmaneuver multiple fighters this weakness still somwehat applies. You can see this tactic when Dooku fights Anaken and Obi Wan If the other duelist's can avoid being divided up and outmaneuvered by the form II duelist they will be able to take advantage of this weakness.
  • Its most glaring weakness however is that it lacks the kinetic energy to match the strong blows of the Forms V and Form VII and its defenses can be easily overpowered by their strong blows. In fact this was stated to be the reason why Dooku lost to Anaken in the movie. While this can be somewhat overcome by tiring out and outmaneuvering the Form V and Form VII duelist if they actually manage to get a hit in they should have no problem no overpowering the Form II duelist's defenses and beating them.

If you need more info you can look it up here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_II:_Makashi

So depending on the circumstances I think the Makashi duelist actually may have the best chances of winning.

irrc doesnt pure form 3 have like almost no attacking moves, now that I think of it, thats why Zannah is not more powerful.

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Erkan12

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#45  Edited By Erkan12

@penderor said:

@boringperson: The question is if you can penetrate that defense. Yes makashi is good against Soresu but its not a direct counter I think.

I didn't hear anything like ''direct counter''...

Makashi constructed for lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat, if you are asking that which is better in lightsaber duel, answer is makashi. Which is worst for lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat, answer is shii-cho.

Soresu constructed for deflecting blaster bolts. True master of soresu known as ''invincible'' but it lacks to finish the duel quickly.

Ataru, Djem-so and Juyo has advantages and disadvantages.

Although Makashi has many weakness, it is not good against blaster bolts and technique can be broken with strong kinetic and physical attacks.

Two lightsaber form has big disadvantage against makashi ;

- Soresu : it lacks the necessary offense power for resisting to makashi's sword play.

- Shii-cho : it does not adress to lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat while makashi is the opposite.

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alexander121793

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#46  Edited By alexander121793

@erkan12: @easternwind i actually think that Makashi has an advantage over Ataru as well.

Ataru has been noted to not rely on strong blows. The main strategy of Ataru is actually to repeatable attack the opponent from multiple angles at once. Ataru actually been noted to rely less on strength than other forms which is why it was favored by elderly lightsaber duelists and duelist's with short stature.

Ataru also has some weaknesses that a Makashi duelist should easily be able to take advantage of:

1. It has been known to have little defense and in fact this is one of the reason's why Qui Gon Jinn died. Ataru duelist's mainly rely on not being their in the first place rather than actually defending most of the time and its acrobatic blows have been stated to leave the user open to attack if they couldn't avoid it in time. Yoda was stated to be able to over come this weaknesses because his short stature left little room for him to be hit in the first place. However since we are dealing with human duelist's this weakness would be very much apparent.

2. One other big weakness was that it tires out the duelist who uses it quickly. Ataru was designed to end a fight quickly and its acrobatics and repeated attacks tend to tire out the duelist quickly. While this could be overcome to an extent even a master of the form such as Qui gon jinn had trouble with this weakness.

3. It also depends mostly on its trademark movement in combat and when deprived of it was at an extreme disadvantage. This is another stated reason why Qui gon jinn died because he was fighting in the combined space in the later part of his fight with Maul he could not use the forms trademark movement and he was cut down. This was another weakness Yoda was able to overcome because of his short stature.

I feel that an master of Makashi would be able to easily take advantage of these weaknesses.

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#47  Edited By Erkan12

@alexander121793: In confined space, absolutely.

But with unconfined space, Ataru should be better than Soresu or Shii-cho.

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#48  Edited By ShootingNova

Makashi is good but is less appropriate for situations with multiple assailants. With "perfect mastery", this can be compensated for, but then, Makashi specialists are still prone to being overwhelmed, which is certainly not outside the realms of possibility here.

The biggest issue with this fight is that there's no telling what direction the fight will go. There's realistic scenarios for almost all of the forms to win here. The ones I doubt would win are Shii-Cho Ataru. Niman does seem to be underrated here.

For the sake of adding more elements, I suggest Trakata and Trispzest be added. Lus-ma shouldn't be added due to being utterly obscure, but Grievous's hybrid unorthodox form and Vader's hybrid Djem So could potentially be added as well.

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@shootingnova: Juyo / Vaapad ? I was thinking Juyo and Makashi would be the winners.

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@erkan12: Probably not Juyo. It is mostly focused on single combat, and finishing the opponent quickly. Failing to do so can have aberrant consequences, although again, this "perfect mastery" would imply that the user is at least as skilled as Maul, who can compensate for such weaknesses. Juyo requiring high-level mastery of multiple other lightsaber forms as a prerequisite can help it here, but I doubt I would be a game-changing element. I could see Juyo winning, but probably not the most likely. Niman and Soresu are still my choices, assuming perfect mastery enables the Soresu specialist to properly attack.