VS
Lady Shiva vs Bronze Tiger
VS
BT ftw.
I don't remember Cassandra beating Bronze Tiger as a child, I remember a scan where it was showing that he was one of the people that trained her and showed him attacking her, then it looked like he was concerned for her, and then it showed her hitting him while he was off guard.
This is the fight between DS and BT
@vuviper said:
" @Gambler: Actually no, I didn't at least not when I posted. I have read it before though. I take his own words as good evidence, but I don't value them as highly as fights. Still you're starting to convince me, I still need to see more evidence though. I don't know what "jobbed" means and I don't know how it makes Shiva being beaten by Batman irrelevant. "Jobbed means a character who despite their showings and abilities always lose to the good guy cause they are a villain. But you're still just going by who beat who in comics. Look at their abilities. Bronze Tiger is a master martial artist, as is Lady Shiva. Shiva learns 10 new styles a year. Shiva has a strike that instantly kills. Shiva can read her opponents moves. Shiva is fast enough to avoid Batgirl (who is slated as having Meta Human speed).
" @Gambler said:Shiva wanted to die, but she gave it her all cause she states as much. She wanted to be killed by a fighter worthy of killing her. Cassandra had to beat Shiva at her best just to prove she was worthy. And at the end she wouldnt do it." @Strafe Prower said:Actually she wasn't she wanted to die. In the same issue, Cassandra beats Shiva "" @Gambler said:How can Bronze Tiger get inside her head? There's only three people who she has an emotional attachment to. Deathstroke, her father, and Batman. There's nothing anyway to suggest Bronze Tiger could get inside Cass' head. In fact you're killing your own debate. In one sentence you're trying to say BT can beat Cain. Then you turn around and say Cain beat Shiva. This is after I've proven that BT admits Shiva cant be beat and is essentially better then he is lmao. If Shiva cant beat Batgirl then how the hell is BT ;) And Cain did give it her all in their first fight. Not sure why you're making things up now. Cain trained her ass off to face Shiva. In fact she knew she was going to die. "" @Strafe Prower said:Which Bronze Tiger could do. BTW, you forgot to mention Shiva losing to Cassie after she revived her, because she wasn't giving her best the first time around. Then she lost to her again. "" @Gambler: I was talking about Cassie, not Shiva, I know Shiva would win this fight, I was trying to spark debate. I was argueing you saying Cassie was better than BT. "Deathstroke has stated that there's only one way to beat Batgirl and that was by getting inside her head. "
@Strafe Prower said:
" @Gambler said:" @Strafe Prower said:Anyone can get inside someone's head. He could if need be by talking about how easy it is to defeat Batman.No the abc method you are using doesn't work. I'm proving that Shiva isn't all you cracked her out to be. If cassie can beat her twice. In fact nothing that you have said proves anything. She has beat and lost to cassie. Beat and lost to Richard. She isn't the most deadly person in the world, if she loses to others so frequently. Not to mention if she lost to Batman like vuviper said(Bronze Tiger one shotted Bats) Obviously Cain didn't give it her all, if she beats her directly after. Thats common sense, not making things up. "" @Gambler said:How can Bronze Tiger get inside her head? There's only three people who she has an emotional attachment to. Deathstroke, her father, and Batman. There's nothing anyway to suggest Bronze Tiger could get inside Cass' head. In fact you're killing your own debate. In one sentence you're trying to say BT can beat Cain. Then you turn around and say Cain beat Shiva. This is after I've proven that BT admits Shiva cant be beat and is essentially better then he is lmao. If Shiva cant beat Batgirl then how the hell is BT ;) And Cain did give it her all in their first fight. Not sure why you're making things up now. Cain trained her ass off to face Shiva. In fact she knew she was going to die. "" @Strafe Prower said:Which Bronze Tiger could do. BTW, you forgot to mention Shiva losing to Cassie after she revived her, because she wasn't giving her best the first time around. Then she lost to her again. "" @Gambler: I was talking about Cassie, not Shiva, I know Shiva would win this fight, I was trying to spark debate. I was argueing you saying Cassie was better than BT. "Deathstroke has stated that there's only one way to beat Batgirl and that was by getting inside her head. "
My abc logic? Dude the entire last portion of your post is ABC logic. Shiva losing to Batman proves nothing. He's one of the most iconic characters in comics, of course he beats a C-List villain more times then he loses. You obviously dont know a thing about Cassandra Cain if you thin Shiva losing to her twice is a bad thing. You might wanna read up on her. Batman cant even lay a hand on Cass, thats fact, look it up :) Bronze Tiger has never beaten Shiva. As for getting into Cain's head you have no prove of anything. The fact that only David Cain and Deathstroke have ever managed to do this just skips past you I guess lol. You've provided nothing for Bronze Tiger, not one thing except he one shotted Batman. That makes him the greatest Martial Artist ever? hahaha come on. You're reaching.
I acknowledge that my knowledge of these characters are incomplete, but you haven't showed me anything that actually convinces me that Shiva is better. First you said that BT did not in fact beat Deathstroke, I think the scans I provided proved otherwise (Bronze Tiger has him pinned down so he can't escape with Deathstroke's own knife at his throat, DS only escapes because BT turns around) , then you claimed that Cassandra Cain beat BT as a child, and I provided the scan also showing otherwise. You also claimed that Shiva beat BT based on one panel of her punching him once in a flashback. To me that does not constitute beating. All that is left in support of Shiva being able to beat BT is from what people said. In my experience what people say about other people's abilities aren't a very good measure of their actual abilities. (Batman has said Plastic man is the most powerful man on earth). And batman has been stated to be the best human fighter at least twice as many times as Shiva. Which brings me to the "jobbed" thing. I think in theory Batman should have a good chance beating Shiva, he has perfected every known fighting form, knows every nerve strike, is a combat genius, and has been through thousands of martial arts battles. If anything, I think his background sounds more impressive than hers. Looking at their performance in comics I think a chance to win is also justifiable. I don't see any huge discrepancy between Shiva's feats and Batman's.
My support for Bronze Tiger comes mainly from his defeat of Deathstroke and Batman. Yes, It isn't a lot, but I haven't seen anything solid for Shiva yet so it's all I can go by. I still think it is a very close battle though and I'm only giving BT a slight edge. I think any fight between Richard Dragon, Shiva, Bronze Tiger, or Batman could go either way. (Speaking of Richard Dragon, did he really beat Shiva? And Bronze Tiger? And Batman? I think if this is true I have to put him above those three lol)
Whether or not defeating DS in hand to hand is an admirable feat I'll have to do more research on. I'll just leave you with this
@Strafe Prower:
I disagree about Connor better than Shiva or Batgirl, even if he is able to teach Richard Dragon, doesn't mean he's actually better than him at anything, just that he has learned things Dragon hasn't. This isn't too surprising from someone who learns abilities just by watching. Connor has lost to Constantine Drakon even with the help of Mia a couple times. He also would have been killed by Shiva if it were not for Tim Drake. Cassandra Cain too can learn abilities as she sees them
This in combination with her ability to read opponents (even greater than Shiva's because it is her first language), her knowledge of all forms of martial arts (thanks to Batman), her training since birth, and her natural giftedness for fighting (both courtesy of David Cain) but her way above Connor. (I haven't read Richard Dragon's series yet so if he has good showings in there I haven't seen them :-( )
For similar reason I also doubt Bronze Tiger would beat Cassandra very often. Especially since he is one of the people who trained her so she knows his style well. His only advantage I can think of is strength, he seems to be one of the strongest martial artist out there, I'd put him just below Bane and Wildcat and just above Batman
" I acknowledge that my knowledge of these characters are incomplete, but you haven't showed me anything that actually convinces me that Shiva is better. First you said that BT did not in fact beat Deathstroke, I think the scans I provided proved otherwise (Bronze Tiger has him pinned down so he can't escape with Deathstroke's own knife at his throat, DS only escapes because BT turns around) , then you claimed that Cassandra Cain beat BT as a child, and I provided the scan also showing otherwise. You also claimed that Shiva beat BT based on one panel of her punching him once in a flashback. To me that does not constitute beating. All that is left in support of Shiva being able to beat BT is from what people said.Bronze Tiger didn't beat Deathstroke alone, in fact beside Deadshot being there, there was another nerdy character there taking shots at Deathstroke. In fact if you want to get into the complete story, Deathstroke was already injured before ever tangling with Bronze Tiger. However, I'm still not seeing what the Bronze Tiger vs Deathstroke fight proves? You proved Cain didn't beat Bronze Tiger? How? That scan clearly shows she took a full on shot from BT (which has defeated Batman with one shot) and leaping up and taking him out. Also you can draw your own conclusions from the Shiva/Bronze Tiger fight. She's taking on the League of Assassins, she is shown tagging BT as well as avoiding the rest of the League. Is it Bronze Tiger who takes her out? No. Its David Cain. So if BT is so badass then why is Shiva taking on three other people and him, and he's not landing any shots? Why isnt he the one to take her out? Why does David Cain have to jump in to take her down? Also, I see you've choosing to ignore what BT himself says about Shiva.
@vuviper said:
" And batman has been stated to be the best human fighter at least twice as many times as Shiva. Which brings me to the "jobbed" thing. I think in theory Batman should have a good chance beating Shiva, he has perfected every known fighting form, knows every nerve strike, is a combat genius, and has been through thousands of martial arts battles. If anything, I think his background sounds more impressive than hers. Looking at their performance in comics I think a chance to win is also justifiable. I don't see any huge discrepancy between Shiva's feats and Batman's."
No, Batman hasn't been stated as such. Also, Batman defeated Shiva once with the help of Jason Todd, and once in Superman/Batman (which is nothing but a PIS/CIS fest). How many battles does Batman just use Martial Arts in? Batman utilizes weapons, preparation, etc etc. Of course Batman's background sounds more impressive. He's part of the Trinity. He's a hero. He has his own comic. But what does Batman have to do with whether or not Bronze Tiger can beat Lady Shiva?
@vuviper said:
" In my experience what people say about other people's abilities aren't a very good measure of their actual abilities. (Batman has said Plastic man is the most powerful man on earth). "But this isn't about what Batman said about Plastic Man. Its about what Top Tier Martial Artists (and the dude in the actual fight) have said about Shiva. You can ignore it if you want. I probably would to since it pretty much confirms Shiva is better then BT.
@vuviper said:
"
My support for Bronze Tiger comes mainly from his defeat of Deathstroke and Batman. Yes, It isn't a lot, but I haven't seen anything solid for Shiva yet so it's all I can go by. I still think it is a very close battle though and I'm only giving BT a slight edge. I think any fight between Richard Dragon, Shiva, Bronze Tiger, or Batman could go either way. (Speaking of Richard Dragon, did he really beat Shiva? And Bronze Tiger? And Batman? I think if this is true I have to put him above those three lol)
Whether or not defeating DS in hand to hand is an admirable feat I'll have to do more research on. I'll just leave you with this
"
Your whole argument revolves around character A beat character B. Shiva's trained Batman. Shiva's fought Bronze Tiger alongside the League of Assassins and he didn't beat her. He had a crew with him and he didn't beat her. Bronze Tiger's abilities don't match up to Shiva's.
I have more. But I'll let you digest this and respond.
Well this is how I see the scan you provided. David Cain just killed Shiva's sister. She comes outside in anger to meet him. She attacks first hitting Bronze Tiger, reacting the other league members pounce on her but the first one to tag her is David Cain who brings her down in one punch. (It's also possible that the league pounce first and she jumped out of the way and hit Tiger, but I find the first one more likely considering her anger and desire for revenge) I'm still not sure why you think Bronze tiger taking one punch means he was defeated.
I'm not ignoring what he said, but as I stated earlier I value actual feats greater than words. Your scans at the bottom of your post demonstrate why. Batgirl watches and thinks she would lose, yet she defeated Shiva twice and was only defeated by Shiva when she was not performing to the best of her abilities. Batman says that he couldn't beat Shiva, yet when they first met she was armed with nun-chucks and he was still able to stalemate her. In fact once Jason Todd hit her once, it created an opening for him to defeat her. The second time they meet he defeats her easily despite being attacked from behind. How many battles does he just use martial arts?
His fight with Bronze Tiger, his fights with shiva, his fights with karate kid, his fights with wildcat, his fights with tsunetomo, his fight with master Haim, his fight with freeway, priest, dragon, oliver queen, hawkman. Any fight where he's fighting a martial artist basically.
And yes Batman doesn't have a lot to do with this fight, but I want to address anything you've said so you don't feel like I'm ignoring points. Well actually part of the reason I give BT a slight edge is from comparing Shiva and BT's performance against Batman.
If you're implying that I'm using arguments like BT beats Batman so he also beats Shiva, that is false. I take information from who BT has bested, and who Shiva has bested to get an overall idea of how good they are. If you're looking for the best way to convince me that Shiva wins, it's by showing me her having better feats, then, I would happily concede. In fact, that is what I'm hoping someone would eventually do, because I want to know more about all of the characters. Do you think I shouldn't judge based on feats? Do you think I should use opinions of other fighters? Because they never seem to be that accurate.
I'm pretty sure Batman has been stated as the best actually, probably not twice as many times, but I know it's been stated. Right now all I have is this though
"This conclusion is underscored by the very fact of Batman's seemingly superhuman skills,. It is widely acknowledged that Batman is the most highly skilled fighter in the world, possibly the greatest human fighter the world has ever known. To supposed that someone could master every aspect of violent combat to an unheard -of degree without harboring a deep and abiding fascination with said violence is psychologically implausible. One might just as well say that Da Vinci wasn't fascinated with art."
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batsecretfile1.jpg
Whoops almost forgot, yes Shiva trained Batman. What does that tell me? That she is better than him? Because then by the same logic Bronze Tiger and David Cain are both better than Cassandra Cain.
Edit:
@Final Arrow said:
" Shiva is considered the best by a lot of villains and marital artist in the DCU, Going of feats she wins this and quick. "
Cool, I'd love to see them.
" @Gambler: But the kid never actually helped him beat Deathstroke. I wasn't aware that Deathstroke was already injured though, how badly? and how long ago, his healing factor makes it hard to know how much it would affect him. All that it's supposed to prove is he is sufficiently skilled enough to defeat DS. I showed you the scan of her hitting Bronze Tiger, her hitting him once isn't her defeating him. Also, he is training her in that panel, and he is off guard. And I don't know why you compared BT attacking Batman and BT attacking Cassandra. First of all, I know Cassandra is amazing, second they are completely different attacks.He's firing bullets that Deathstroke has to dodge. How is that not an advantage for BT? lmao come man, you're reaching. And Deathstroke's healing factor was cutting out on him. There's a scan where he's explaining to Winter Green how his powers were failing during that entire event. I'm well aware of what's happening in that scan of Cass vs BT. Yes he's training, by going all out. Its how she became the fighter she is today. First off, I think you should go back and read my post, I wasnt comparing BT attacking Batman to anything. I was asking you what does that have to do with this fight? I was telling you that character A beating character B logic doesn't fly. You have yet to show any credable evidence for BT what so ever. Your whole case is built upon one scan were he takes Bats out with one punch, and another where he beats Deathstroke. Nightwing's beaten Deathstroke, does this mean he can now take Bronze Tiger or Batman? This is the Battle Forum. You take the characters abilities and match them against eachother without plot, PIS, and CIS. Show me some evidence that BT can beat Shiva.
@vuviper said:
" Well this is how I see the scan you provided. David Cain just killed Shiva's sister. She comes outside in anger to meet him. She attacks first hitting Bronze Tiger, reacting the other league members pounce on her but the first one to tag her is David Cain who brings her down in one punch. (It's also possible that the league pounce first and she jumped out of the way and hit Tiger, but I find the first one more likely considering her anger and desire for revenge) I'm still not sure why you think Bronze tiger taking one punch means he was defeated. "
lol man you really need to read the comic. Shiva tracks down the League, they hadn't just killed her sister (seeing as how this was killed in Detroit by David Cain, not the League). She goes over seas to find Cain, who is with the League. Also, in the Scan Shiva is striking Bronze Tiger, while holding off two other league members. A, this shows us she's fast enough to tag BT, and B, it shows that if Bronze Tiger was better then Shiva he should have easily been able to avoid her strike and take her down. I dont see how you can make a case for someone being better when they have two other people on their side attacking and is still getting lit up. .
@vuviper said:
"The very first time Batgirl fought Shiva, she had lost her ability to read movements. Shiva beat her and then agreed to train her and give her back her abilities if in one year they met again to fight. They did, and Shiva killed Batgirl. Who had her full abilities ;) Shiva then brings Batgirl back to life to fight again, and Cass wins. They fight one more time and Cass breaks Shiva's neck. This in now way takes away the creditability of what Bronze Tiger said about Shiva. The fact that the greatest Martial Artists in the DCU all say the same thing renders you're excuse moot. Its like saying, "I dont hold to much weight in who lost to who cause Batman once got stumped out by Deathstroke, but beats him everytime after that." hahaha hit her once and created an opening, exactly. I love how you ignore the fact that when a character is fighting someone one on one and then another character jumps in, it in fact alters the fight. He hit her in the back of the head and when she turns around Batman takes her out. When has he ever fought Hawkman in straight hand to hand? When he fought Karate Kid the Kid was dying. Dont act like Batman doesnt use his belt and weapons more times then not.
I'm not ignoring what he said, but as I stated earlier I value actual feats greater than words. Your scans at the bottom of your post demonstrate why. Batgirl watches and thinks she would lose, yet she defeated Shiva twice and was only defeated by Shiva when she was not performing to the best of her abilities. Batman says that he couldn't beat Shiva, yet when they first met she was armed with nun-chucks and he was still able to stalemate her. In fact once Jason Todd hit her once, it created an opening for him to defeat her. The second time they meet he defeats her easily despite being attacked from behind. How many battles does he just use martial arts?
His fight with Bronze Tiger, his fights with shiva, his fights with karate kid, his fights with wildcat, his fights with tsunetomo, his fight with master Haim, his fight with freeway, priest, dragon, oliver queen, hawkman. Any fight where he's fighting a martial artist basically.
"
@vuviper said:
" If you're implying that I'm using arguments like BT beats Batman so he also beats Shiva, that is false. I take information from who BT has bested, and who Shiva has bested to get an overall idea of how good they are. If you're looking for the best way to convince me that Shiva wins, it's by showing me her having better feats, then, I would happily concede. In fact, that is what I'm hoping someone would eventually do, because I want to know more about all of the characters. Do you think I shouldn't judge based on feats? Do you think I should use opinions of other fighters? Because they never seem to be that accurate."
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