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#1 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13340 posts) - - Show Bio
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so i'm sure this hasn't been done before, takes place in Wakanda. Kraven's hunting some animals or some jazz, T'Challa isn't letting that noise fly. Both are fully equipped. Boo ya ka sha
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#2 Posted by Andras (2726 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Panther

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#3 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13340 posts) - - Show Bio

why? doesn't kraven give spiderman a run for his money?

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#4 Posted by Static Shock (51750 posts) - - Show Bio
@texasdeathmatch said:
" why? doesn't kraven give spiderman a run for his money? "

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#5 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13340 posts) - - Show Bio

oh goodness, guess i missed that issue

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#6 Posted by The_Martian (37399 posts) - - Show Bio

Kraven looks like he was more testing Black Panther, seeing what he could do, than actually fighting him.

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#7 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13340 posts) - - Show Bio

yeah. looked like he was digging the pain. alright, how about a determined kraven that doesn't have some weird pain fetish

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#8 Posted by sevennames27 (1589 posts) - - Show Bio


I think Kraven would win in a fair fight, however Black Panther has all of those advanced weapons and the suit is a really big advantage. Take that stuff away from Black Panther or give it to Kraven as well and Black Panther would lose.

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#9 Posted by Incredible Hulk-Prime (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Panther would defeat Kraven seeing how he has alot of advantages.

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#10 Posted by THUNDERBOLT30 (12339 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Panther would win. He is known for being one of the best strategists in the Marvel U, which is a skill that has served him well against opponents with superior abilities.

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#11 Posted by StrongestOneThereIs (7064 posts) - - Show Bio

wasn't that his son?

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#12 Posted by StrongestOneThereIs (7064 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by mv (2069 posts) - - Show Bio

BP

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#14 Posted by Caligula (12660 posts) - - Show Bio

Kraven, if he is taking BP seriously

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#15 Posted by Static Shock (51750 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
" Kraven looks like he was more testing Black Panther, seeing what he could do, than actually fighting him. "
Yeah, right. He was fighting back while 'testing' him. That doesn't take away from the fact that he's more than capable of beating either version of Kraven.

@StrongestOneThereIs said:
" wasn't that his son? "
Yeah. If it was the original, it wouldn't be much different.

@Caligula said:
" Kraven, if he is taking BP seriously "
Even if taking BP seriously, he still wouldn't beat him.




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#16 Posted by The_Martian (37399 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @Nobody said:
" Kraven looks like he was more testing Black Panther, seeing what he could do, than actually fighting him. "
Yeah, right. He was fighting back while 'testing' him. That doesn't take away from the fact that he's more than capable of beating either version of Kraven."
I'm not saying BP can't beat Kraven. Just stating it didn't look like he was really trying in that fight.
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#17 Posted by castleking (24743 posts) - - Show Bio
original kraven could and probably would beat BP.
BP with no suit would get own by kraven with no wpns.

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#18 Posted by k4tzm4n (40071 posts) - - Show Bio

Why is that scan shown, but not the one where Kraven first beat him?  It only seems fair to show both battles they had.

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#19 Posted by Static Shock (51750 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
"Just stating it didn't look like he was really trying in that fight. "
Or maybe he was trying and Black Panther didn't give him a chance to actually hit him.

@castleking said:
" original kraven could and probably would beat BP.
Black Panther could and probably would beat the original Kraven.


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#20 Posted by Static Shock (51750 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
" Why is that scan shown, but not the one where Kraven first beat him?  It only seems fair to show both battles they had. "
Why would I show both, when I'm going for Black Panther? Besides, you're only good up until your last battle. Kraven won the first, Black Panther won the second. He has bragging rights. LOL.
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#21 Posted by The_Martian (37399 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock: He seemed to be enjoying it when Black Panther was showing him what he can do. Seemed like he was just trying to pisses BP off until he started beating up Kraven.
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#22 Posted by Static Shock (51750 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
" @Static Shock: He seemed to be enjoying it when Black Panther was showing him what he can do. Seemed like he was just trying to pisses BP off until he started beating up Kraven. "
Of course he was enjoying the pain. But, that doesn't mean he wasn't fighting back or wasn't trying to fight back.
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#23 Posted by The_Martian (37399 posts) - - Show Bio

Just didn't seem like he was really trying to fight back.

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#24 Posted by Static Shock (51750 posts) - - Show Bio

It seems like Black Panther wasn't giving him a chance to.

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#25 Posted by The_Martian (37399 posts) - - Show Bio

BP isn't fast enough to not give him a chance. Kraven probably has a faster reaction time than BP.

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#26 Posted by Static Shock (51750 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
" BP isn't fast enough to not give him a chance."
I disagree.

@Nobody said:
"Kraven probably has a faster reaction time than BP. "
Black Panther was fast enough to keep up with and dodge Wolverine. Why not Kraven? What makes him faster than the Black Panther?

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#27 Posted by k4tzm4n (40071 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
"@k4tzm4n said:
" Why is that scan shown, but not the one where Kraven first beat him?  It only seems fair to show both battles they had. "
Why would I show both, when I'm going for Black Panther? Besides, you're only good up until your last battle. Kraven won the first, Black Panther won the second. He has bragging rights. LOL."

lol...Well, could you post the first fight anyway? =)
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#28 Posted by The_Martian (37399 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock: Wolverine doesn't have super human reaction time, Kraven did.
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#29 Edited by Static Shock (51750 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
" @Static Shock: Wolverine doesn't have super human reaction time, Kraven did. "
Yes, he does, and there have been enough instances to dub it consistent.

@k4tzm4n
said:
" lol...Well, could you post the first fight anyway? =) "
It's in the other thread just like this one.
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#30 Posted by The_Martian (37399 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @Nobody said:
" @Static Shock: Wolverine doesn't have super human reaction time, Kraven did. "
Yes, he does, and there have been enough instance to dubbed it consistent.
 "
Him dodging a bullet doesn't make him superhuman. Normal humans can do that.
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#31 Posted by k4tzm4n (40071 posts) - - Show Bio

There ya go =)

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#32 Posted by Static Shock (51750 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
"Him dodging a bullet doesn't make him superhuman."
Normal humans dodge the aim of the bullet. Not the actual bullet. Daredevil himself was surprised when he saw Wolverine dodge bullets after they were fired. People like Wolverine react fast enough to jam their claws into the barrel after the trigger is pulled and right before the bullet can leave the barrel, causing the gun to explode. Never seen Kraven do anything like that, or anything that would make me think he has superhuman reaction time.
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#33 Posted by vance_astro (89968 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Panther.SLAUGHTERHOUSE.

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#34 Posted by The_Martian (37399 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @Nobody said:
"Him dodging a bullet doesn't make him superhuman."
Normal humans dodge the aim of the bullet. Not the actual bullet. Daredevil himself was surprised when he saw Wolverine dodge bullets after they were fired. People like Wolverine react fast enough to jam their claws into the barrel after the trigger is pulled and right before the bullet can leave the barrel, causing the gun to explode. Never seen Kraven do anything like that, or anything that would make me think he has superhuman reaction time. "
I've seen normal humans dodge bullets before. Off the top of my head I know Shang-Chi has done it.
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#35 Posted by Static Shock (51750 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
"Off the top of my head I know Shang-Chi has done it. "
After they were fired, right? He's more than just normal, then. Anyone that can dodge bullets after they have been fired has superhuman reaction time, basically.
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#36 Posted by The_Martian (37399 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock said:
" @Nobody said:
"Off the top of my head I know Shang-Chi has done it. "
After they were fired, right? He's more than just normal, then. Anyone that can dodge bullets after they have been fired has superhuman reaction time, basically. "
Shang-Chi has normal human reaction. He can manipulate chi to put him at peak human. And yes it was after they were fired.
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#37 Edited by Static Shock (51750 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
"Shang-Chi has normal human reaction."
Not if he's dodging bullets after they are fired. It's the same with Cassandra Cain. Her reaction time isn't normal at all. Also, same with Iron Fist. He catches them and has been dodging them effortlessly after they were fired. Normal humans with normal level reaction time cannot dodge bullets after they are fired. Also, Shang Chi's chi puts him a little greater than just peak human. Here's why.

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#38 Posted by The_Martian (37399 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock: Iron Fist can put himself at superhuman levels with his chi manipulation, Shang-Chi can't. Him kicking that pole over doesn't mean that he is superhuman either. He is a martial arts, they are able to channel their chi and find the breaking point of a structure.
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#39 Posted by castleking (24743 posts) - - Show Bio
they can find the weak all they want but, if they dont have sufficient strength to do it, it is pointless. DOnt ever say shang cant amp his baseline stats b/c that is completely untrue.
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#40 Edited by Static Shock (51750 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
" @Static Shock: Iron Fist can put himself at superhuman levels with his chi manipulation, Shang-Chi can't.
He can, but not to Iron Fist's level. The chi manipulation that Shang Chi possesses amps his strikes, withstand blows of a certain amount of superhuman physical force, and other things, rather than his physical stats entirely.

@Nobody said:
"Him kicking that pole over doesn't mean that he is superhuman either. He is a martial arts, they are able to channel their chi and find the breaking point of a structure. "
How do you know Shang Chi found the breaking point of that structure and attacked? How do you know he didn't just kick it anywhere or not? To me, it just looks as if he kicked it down, and it doesn't say anywhere that he found it's breaking point prior to doing so.

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#41 Posted by The_Martian (37399 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel.com:

Shang-Chi is one of the world's most adept combatants, trained in all known martial arts. He is also skilled at meditation, and has occasionally received visions while meditating.
Wikipedia:

Shang-Chi is classed as an athlete but he is one of the best non-superhumans in martial arts and has dedicated much of his life to the art, being referred to by some as the greatest empty handed fighter and practitioner of Kung Fu alive. Much of his physical abilities seem to stem from his mastery of chi, which often allows him to surpass physical limitations of normal athletes. In one instance, Shang was able to stand shirtless in minus 20 degree weather without feeling any physical discomfort. He has also demonstrated the ability to dodge bullets and to deflect single shots with his bracers. He is highly trained in the arts of concentration and meditation, and is also an expert in various hand-weapons including the bo, nunchakus, and shuriken.
Marvel Database:

Although Shang Chi primarily relies on his martial arts prowess, he has incredible control of his chi and body. He is able to enter a meditative, almost trancelike state to ignore pain, and/or resist the effects of drugs or poisons. His chi mastery also allows him to effectively detect nearby individuals, having been able to detect even Jean Grey hidden by her psychic powers. In several cases, his mastery of chi can be attributed to several near-superhuman feats, such as withstanding a punch from Hiriom the Shamed kicking over a car, and easily deflecting and dodging bullets.
Comicvine:

Although possessing no superpowers, Shang-Chi has a lifetime of martial arts training behind him, enabling to equal and best many superhumans. Mostly using his bare hands, Shang can also formidably use any martial arts weapon and is skilled at improvising weapons out of ordinary objects and using his surroundings. One of the few people to beat him in hand to hand combat is Wolverine, who has the advantage of more than a century of practice. Shang Chi is a master of meditation and relaxation techniques, enabling him to do anything ranging from receiving psychic visions to deadening his nerves to make incapable of feeling pain.

Not one of these sites say he has anything superhuman. Two of them actually say that he isn't. I don't have a handbook with Shang-Chi, but I'm sure if I did it would say he is not superhuman as well.
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#42 Posted by castleking (24743 posts) - - Show Bio
try reading  his respect thread and look at all the chi amp techniques he has used in his battles.
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#43 Edited by Static Shock (51750 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
" Marvel.com:
Shang-Chi is one of the world's most adept combatants, trained in all known martial arts. He is also skilled at meditation, and has occasionally received visions while meditating.
Wikipedia:

Shang-Chi is classed as an athlete but he is one of the best non-superhumans in martial arts and has dedicated much of his life to the art, being referred to by some as the greatest empty handed fighter and practitioner of Kung Fu alive. Much of his physical abilities seem to stem from his mastery of chi, which often allows him to surpass physical limitations of normal athletes. In one instance, Shang was able to stand shirtless in minus 20 degree weather without feeling any physical discomfort. He has also demonstrated the ability to dodge bullets and to deflect single shots with his bracers. He is highly trained in the arts of concentration and meditation, and is also an expert in various hand-weapons including the bo, nunchakus, and shuriken.
Marvel Database:

Although Shang Chi primarily relies on his martial arts prowess, he has incredible control of his chi and body. He is able to enter a meditative, almost trancelike state to ignore pain, and/or resist the effects of drugs or poisons. His chi mastery also allows him to effectively detect nearby individuals, having been able to detect even Jean Grey hidden by her psychic powers. In several cases, his mastery of chi can be attributed to several near-superhuman feats, such as withstanding a punch from Hiriom the Shamed kicking over a car, and easily deflecting and dodging bullets.
Comicvine:

Although possessing no superpowers, Shang-Chi has a lifetime of martial arts training behind him, enabling to equal and best many superhumans. Mostly using his bare hands, Shang can also formidably use any martial arts weapon and is skilled at improvising weapons out of ordinary objects and using his surroundings. One of the few people to beat him in hand to hand combat is Wolverine, who has the advantage of more than a century of practice. Shang Chi is a master of meditation and relaxation techniques, enabling him to do anything ranging from receiving psychic visions to deadening his nerves to make incapable of feeling pain.
Not one of these sites say he has anything superhuman. Two of them actually say that he isn't. I don't have a handbook with Shang-Chi, but I'm sure if I did it would say he is not superhuman as well. "
Word of advice. Never quote wikis. Even Comicvine and Marvel.com. >_>

Also, Handbooks don't really hold much water for some characters, especially if what he's doing is consistent and the Handbook only contradicts what he's doing.


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#44 Posted by The_Martian (37399 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock: I don't normally, but since I have 4 sources that were in sync I figured its pretty reliable. Like I said, I don't think I have a handbook that has Shang-Chi. But I'm almost 100% sure that if I did it would say something about him being non-superhuman.
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#45 Edited by vance_astro (89968 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
" @Static Shock: I don't normally, but since I have 4 sources that were in sync I figured its pretty reliable. Like I said, I don't think I have a handbook that has Shang-Chi. But I'm almost 100% sure that if I did it would say something about him being non-superhuman. "
I have two handbooks with Shang Chi in it.One doesn't mention his reaction time and the other says it's peak human.His strength is normal human though.
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#46 Posted by castleking (24743 posts) - - Show Bio
when he doesnt amp up..
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#47 Edited by Static Shock (51750 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nobody said:
" I don't normally, but since I have 4 sources that were in sync I figured its pretty reliable. "
Yet, they still aren't legitimate enough, compared to what he does consistently in comic books.

@Nobody said:
"Like I said, I don't think I have a handbook that has Shang-Chi. But I'm almost 100% sure that if I did it would say something about him being non-superhuman. "
I've addressed the 'Handbook' situation already. It also says that Wolverine has the physical stats of a normal human man, when he's clearly portrayed in comics as low-superhuman man. The same goes for Black Panther, who is said to be be either peak-human or near-superhuman (which is actually a bit more accurate than being label peak human) in those things, when in comics, it's said that his physical stats are increased to enhanced human levels (for example, in terms of strength, he's able to lift anywhere between 800 lbs. and 2 tons, and based on showings and that, he supposed to be ranked as a 4 in strength, because it includes the range of enhanced human beings) and in a limited series, it's said that his physical abilities are 'supranormal' which happens to a synonym of superhuman... Not to mention that he's done some pretty slightly superhuman things in his showings.

Handbooks aren't the end all be all.

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#48 Posted by Static Shock (51750 posts) - - Show Bio
@castleking said:
" when he doesnt amp up.. "
Agreed.
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#49 Posted by The_Martian (37399 posts) - - Show Bio
@Static Shock: As I said, I don't believe Wolverine has superhuman reaction time. Dodging a bullet doesn't mean you have superhuman reaction. As for BP, I probably can't fairly say weather he is superhuman or "near-superhuman". I have not read enough comics with him. Also I'm not saying that Handbooks have the final say on characters abilities.  But I am saying that just because a character can dodge a bullet does not make them have superhuman reaction.

On a side note, whats the difference between Peak Human and Near-Superhuman. Obviously they are both not Superhuman, but isn't peak human the best something can be before it is consider Superhuman?
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#50 Posted by The_Martian (37399 posts) - - Show Bio
@castleking said:
" when he doesnt amp up.. "
They would probably show the different on at least his stat chart. Like a different color for amped stats or put his stats at the max they can be.