Okay guys, I know Croc is a jobber. But, he wins here. He can shrug off C-4 explosions. He beats the Watchmen.
This happened on only one occasion and is contradicted by masses of showings, which makes it bad writing (ie WIS)
Shortly before the C4 issue Catwoman tied Croc up with ropes and detained him, shortly afterwards Batman beat him up in H2H and broke his jaw with his bare hands, shortly after that the Harvey Dent fight shown above happened.
@silent_bomber: Well Batman has shattered Mr. Freeze's helmet which shrugged off an explosion. And the mere fact that Killer Croc has given Batman trouble basically means he wins here.
@silent_bomber: Well Batman has shattered Mr. Freeze's helmet which shrugged off an explosion. And the mere fact that Killer Croc has given Batman trouble basically means he wins here.
Batman has one-shotted Croc on numerous occasions.
Tim Drake has beaten Croc twice.
Catwoman has beaten Croc
Harley Quinn has beaten Croc
Tarantula has effortlessly beaten Croc
Trained Harvey Dent has beaten Croc
Helena Bertinelli Huntress has beaten Croc.... in the sewers
Bane has beaten Croc numerous times with little difficulty
Wildcat has effortlessly beaten Croc
Shiva has effortlessly beaten Croc while he was Hush-Amped
@_gaff_: Yep. Team wins. Croc should be able to beat most street level characters. Heck, on paper, he'd be above Batman and Captain America level characters. But based on showings, that's not the case. :-(
...so Ozymandias solos. The Comedian solos. Hell, if you give Rorschach a broken bottle, I'm sure he could pull off a Harvey Dent and solo as well.
@silent_bomber: I said if he isn't jobbing. Tim Drake, Catwoman, Harley Quinn, ext, should not beat Killer Croc. But Bane, Shiva, and Wildcat should, but they would stomp the Watchmen.
@_gaff_: Yep. Team wins. Croc should be able to beat most street level characters. Heck, on paper, he'd be above Batman and Captain America level characters. But based on showings, that's not the case. :-(
...so Ozymandias solos. The Comedian solos. Hell, if you give Rorschach a broken bottle, I'm sure he could pull off a Harvey Dent and solo as well.
@thebourneposter: @silent_bomber: Killer Croc has unfortunately lost many (and I do mean many) of his fights; however, if we turn his jobbing off and go by what he has shown himself capable of in his fights then we would see that:
Batman has actually had trouble fighting him on a few occasions. Even Pre-Hush Croc rocked Batman a few times.
Tim Drake was actually shown to be incapable of inflicting any kind of damage on Croc when using his staff. This was a Pre-Hush feat.
Bane has only beaten Croc easily twice. The first he was on venom and it was easy. The other two fights that followed were fairly even. Not to mention that the third time they fought, Bane had venom again. The forth was a load of crap!
As Croc further mutated, His skin became bullet proof to small arms fire. While he can still feel pain, the bullets could not penetrate his skin. Shotguns have been unable to put him down for good. Since this is the case then him loosing most of his fights are total WIS because I'm pretty sure a fist can't hit as hard as a bullet. This actually makes the C-4 feat make sense. To clarify, the C-4 knocked him out, but it was used after Batman realized just how much Croc had changed. He couldn't take him out with his bare hands, so he used a small explosive.
With all of this said I think the team could take it 6-7/10 if the play their cards right.
@warlordeternal: Thank you for setting some things straight. But I'm interested that even though you know his capabilities, you think the team wins. Rorschach is a non-factor basically, and if Batman couldn't knock out Killer Croc there is no way Ozymandias of the Comedian can.
@thebourneposter: I'm taking into consideration what they have on them and their surroundings. Comedian is usually armed with pistols and shotguns. The pistols can't do a thing, but the shotguns can damage Croc. Rorschach would die in an H2H fight; however with Ozy at his side, and his creativity in battle, mixed in with Eddie's range, I think they could pull a win.
@silent_bomber: WIS? So you're saying a character who was made to be one of Batman's top bricks, Shouldn't be able to tank his (or robins) attacks? Or even dish out some pain? What kind of logic is that? While I believe the team win, I am not going ignore the fact that when written correctly, he is a good fighter.
Firstly you are posting Batman 471, which is the only good fight Post-Crisis (non Hush*) Croc has ever had with Bruce. This I'm pretty certain is actually the first major appearance of Killer Croc after Crisis, at that stage he was treated the same as his pre-crisis version.
It all went downhill from there.
*Hush-Virus Croc has had multiple respectable fights with Batman, but Vanilla Croc hasn't really since pre-crisis.
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Secondly you have Bane without Venom beating Croc... OK
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Thirdly you have Batman 512, which contradicts what you have just said because it blatantly shows Dick Grayson (the guy wearing the Batman costume, standing in while Bruce is away) drawing blood on Croc with a punch,
Robin's strike also knocks Croc forwards, so I would say "incapable of inflicting any damage" is possibly a slight exaggeration even in this case, it didn't KO him sure, but it was focused on his back and shoulders anyway, one of the most padded areas.
This is how that fight (Croc Vs Dick Grayson) ends -
So you're saying a character who was made to be one of Batman's top bricks
He was made to be a violent, street-smart gangster actually.
Post-crisis though he is essentially a competence measuring stick, if a writer wants to show that a character is competent, they write in Killer Croc to lose against them, that is basically his primary function these days.
Though at some points he also functions as comedy relief.
Firstly you are posting Batman 471, which is the only good fight Post-Crisis (non Hush*) Croc has ever had with Bruce. This I'm pretty certain is actually the first major appearance of Killer Croc after Crisis, at that stage he was treated the same as his pre-crisis version.
It all went downhill from there.
*Hush-Virus Croc has had multiple respectable fights with Batman, but Vanilla Croc hasn't really since pre-crisis.
Yes. It is one of his beast overall feats but why should it be counted out? I left the Hush Croc out as (I'm not gonna lie) I felt like that would only give you a reason to bash him, as when you said WIS I felt like you wouldn't see them as being valid.
Secondly you have Bane without Venom beating Croc... OK
And?...
Everyone knows Bane is a highly skilled fighter. My point is that he managed to hold his own against him.
Thirdly you have Batman 512, which contradicts what you have just said because it blatantly shows Dick Grayson (the guy wearing the Batman costume, standing in while Bruce is away) drawing blood on Croc with a punch
And what did I say? That he should be able to tank blows and dish some back. This is Pre-Hush Croc. To my knowledge, he is not bullet proof yet. Drawing blood is perfectly fine, and he did technically tank it because it hardly rocked him.
Robin's strike also knocks Croc forwards, so I would say "incapable of inflicting any damage" is possibly a slight exaggeration even in this case, it didn't KO him sure, but it was focused on his back and shoulders anyway, one of the most padded areas.
I didn't think I was exaggerating but you raise a good point.
This is how that fight (Croc Vs Dick Grayson) ends -
Once again, I'm not trying to prove that Croc wins all of his fights, but that he is a good fighter. Also this victory over Croc isn't so unbelievable to me as getting your ears boxed hurts like a bitch.
So you're saying a character who was made to be one of Batman's top bricks
He was made to be a violent, street-smart gangster actually.
Post-crisis though he is essentially a competence measuring stick, if a writer wants to show that a character is competent, they write in Killer Croc to lose against them, that is basically his primary function these days.
Though at some points he also functions as comedy relief.
I'm aware. I was just speaking in general. And it is true that he functions as primarily a "competence measuring stick", but when putting him in a battle, I try to look past that and see him as a character, not fodder. He is in no way an excellent fighter, but he is tough.
Yes. It is one of his beast overall feats but why should it be counted out?
I was merely explaining why he did well, that issue serves as kind of a bridge between pre-crisis Croc and present day Croc.
I don't need to really say anything else that I haven't already, like I said before you are highlighting one Batman fight, whilst ignoring all the others which show a completely different scenario. The usual outcome is Batman either having medium trouble, or one-shotting.
Everyone knows Bane is a highly skilled fighter. My point is that he managed to hold his own against him.
He can get a few good punches on venom-less Bane, losing to him, and that's the best he's ever done out of four fights.
Croc has stolen Bane's venom before, used it, and still been beaten IIRC.
And what did I say? That he should be able to tank blows and dish some back.
I took it as though you were saying Croc's durability was too high for them and used him taking Robin's attack as an example.
Robin, and a whole mass of other similar people have injured Croc on numerous, numerous occasions.
Ozymandias (I'll do this quickly before I call it a night and get some sleep)
Martial arts training since childhood
He carried this on till adulthood + a couple of strength feats
I was merely explaining why he did well, that issue serves as kind of a bridge between pre-crisis Croc and present day Croc.
I don't need to really say anything else that I haven't already, like I said before you are highlighting one Batman fight, whilst ignoring all the others which show a completely different scenario. The usual outcome is Batman either having medium trouble, or one-shotting.
So what you're saying is that Croc just sucks.
He can get a few good punches on venom-less Bane, losing to him, and that's the best he's ever done out of four fights.
Croc has stolen Bane's venom before, used it, and still been beaten IIRC.
IIRC the third fight had Bane on Venom and despite Bane winning, Croc held his own. The forth was a total PIS feat. He took on
Croc
Black Mask
Poison Ivy
Mr. Freeze
Man-Bat
MadHatter
Prof. Pyg
Clayface
And many others. All pumped up on venom. And some were still using their trademark weapons or powers. If Killer Croc alone can give Bane a decent fight when on venom, Then shouldn't Croc have ripped him to pieces?
I took it as though you were saying Croc's durability was too high for them and used him taking Robin's attack as an example.
Oh no. I'm not trying to say that Croc has always been invincible. I was using that as a means of showing that he can take hits and keep fighting. The Bane images are other good example as despite getting his arm broken, he did not back down and kept fighting.
Post-Hush Croc is at the point which he should be too durable for mere physical attacks, but as we both know, he was still a jobber at times. He also had that one really stupid high feat of him ripping a Bank Vault door off it's hinges. This feat is way too high for him and I'm glad it only happened once and was pretty much forgotten about.
Ozymandias (I'll do this quickly before I call it a night and get some sleep)
Martial arts training since childhood
He carried this on till adulthood + a couple of strength feats
Agility
Speed 1 dismantling gun
Speed 2 catching a bullet
I know about the bullet feat, but those others I had not seen. That's pretty impressive and just one more reason as to why I think the team wins.
I'm saying he has an absolutely huge pile of losses that can't just be ignored.
He should still have a chance at beating athlete-level characters, maybe even some borderline peak characters. Catwoman won against him mainly due to planning, it could've gone the other way. One of the Tim Drake fights also required Tim to think his way out of the situation, in a straight fight he felt outclassed. Croc could've killed Huntress if he'd been more careful etc etc.
All of those fights could've gone the other way, which is why I think he would still kill Rorschach no problem, possibly Comedian too.
The Harvey Dent fight also isn't as bad as it looks, Dent was trained by Batman to take over for a year during that period, Harvey also beat Poison Ivy (off panel), Zsasz, Firebug, and possibly KGBeast, and gave Nightwing a little trouble later on and managed to hold off Batman & Robin simultaneously for a short period of time too, Harv's really not that bad (though the fight itself was kind of absurd).
Pre-Crisis Croc was pretty cool -
Beat Batman 2 or 3 times H2H (in fact I think his win percentage is higher than his loss!)
I'm saying he has an absolutely huge pile of losses that can't just be ignored.
He should still have a chance at beating athlete-level characters, maybe even some borderline peak characters. Catwoman won against him mainly due to planning, it could've gone the other way. One of the Tim Drake fights also required Tim to think his way out of the situation, in a straight fight he felt outclassed. Croc could've killed Huntress if he'd been more careful etc etc.
All of those fights could've gone the other way, which is why I think he would still kill Rorschach no problem, possibly Comedian too.
The Harvey Dent fight also isn't as bad as it looks, Dent was trained by Batman to take over for a year during that period, Harvey also beat Poison Ivy (off panel), Zsasz, Firebug, and possibly KGBeast, and gave Nightwing a little trouble later on and managed to hold off Batman & Robin simultaneously for a short period of time too, Harv's really not that bad (though the fight itself was kind of absurd).
I see what you're saying. Still wish writers wouldn't use him simply as a "competence measuring stick". If you want to have a new or sometimes old character beat a tough opponent to show off what they are capable of that's fine. But when said "tough" opponent hasn't really won any fights to begin with, then it doesn't make the hero (or villain) look good so much as further making the opponent look like crap as just about everybody else has beaten him or her before.
Pre-Crisis Croc was pretty cool -
Beat Batman 2 or 3 times H2H (in fact I think his win percentage is higher than his loss!)
Pimp slapped Joker
Killed Jason Todd's parents
Was everyone Pre-Crisis just better then they were Post-Crisis? What happened?
Right? A team that versatile should ripped Bane apart. I can understand if a character can beat a team through BFR, or knocking certain opponents out quickly. Good examples:
IIRC Superman busted into a base of the Legion of Doom and immediately used his super seed to grab Parasite, fly out the base, and chuck him as far as he could. Parasite was arguably the biggest threat there to him, and so that was a smart move.
Mongul had a brief fight with Superman and Martian Manhunter. He appeared to easily overwhelm them in strength but we did not see J'onzz use his TP. Mostly due in part to the fact that Mongul got the hell out of there. He got what he came for and left before the fight truly started.
But this fight just had a lot of fist being thrown. Despite the fact that his enemies were armed and had other powers.
Was everyone Pre-Crisis just better then they were Post-Crisis? What happened?
Pre-Crisis he was written by his creator Gerry Conway, creators tend to have a lot more investment in their own characters.
I think he also went for quite a long time before he was introduced in the post-crisis world, in the interim I guess popularity had been left to wane, after that he became defined by being the dude Bane beat up. Bane kind of supplanted characters like Croc and KGBeast.
There's also something else that happens in writing, DeathpooltheT1000 refers to it as "Flanderisation". Essentially character traits tend to get more exaggerated over time, dumb characters for example tend to get dumber and dumber until they become a caricatures.
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