Jon Snow vs. Jaime Lannister

I searched, but this battle was not on google's first three pages, and given the circumstances, I'd assume it would be ok.

Jon Snow, the Lord Commander, going up against the Kingslayer, Jaime Lannister!

Jaime has both hands/is at peak.

Jon is current. Which seems like peak.

Round 1- Composite

Round 2- Book Version

Round 3- TV Version

Bloodlust is on, and the combatants are both armed with broadswords and leather armor.

Now, it was assumed that Jaime was one of if not the best in the land... But if you look at the latest episode of GoT, Jon has some crazy feats. Knocking a man off of his horse with one stroke, timing Ramsay's arrows, etc.

Jon Snows plot armour in the last episode was insane, and Jaime only has 1 feat of attacking Ned Stark and not being able to beat him 1 on 1. I'd say Jaime wins round 1 & 2.. While Jon Snow possibly wins Round 3 based on more combat feats

@joey_destroyer_of_worlds: Jon snow is a furious Warrior ! he will win because he has war experience

Jaime stomps all rounds.

Show Jon would win

1. Jaime by hype, Jon by feats.

2. Jaime.

3. Jon.

Jon has better combat feats

I'd put my money on Jaime

R1. Composite makes it a little more even, seeing as Jamie is essentially nerfed in the show, and in the books he's in the tier below the best. With that being said, Jamie should win.

R2. Jamie stomps

R3. Jon stomps. Jon is easily one of the best fighters in the realm now. He's had more fighting experience that most we have seen. While we've seen Jamie essentially do nothing but lose a battle against Robbs army, lose against Brie, and lost against the sand snakes.

@soaringturkeys: he was handicapped in the sand snake fight and losing a battle =\= a duel. Jaime was toying with Ned, some one that actually survive a 1v1 vs arthur dayne for a while.

R1: Jaime

R2: Jaime

R3: Probably Jon, even though an arguement can be made for Jaime.

Jaime

Jaime

Jon

Jaime wasn't all that impressive in the show, to be honest.

@wf_mxyzptlk: 1. Jaime by hype, Jon by feats.

2. Jaime.

3. Jon.

This

This is one of the only times where a fight shouldn't be judged purely on feats. Even though Jon has far superior feats, it is established that Jaime is arguably the best swordsman in the realm.

Book Jon loses after a decent fight, TV Jon should win, he's top tier.

jon snow stomps book and show. jaime is overrated and only has statements to fuel the rumors hes on par with the better swordsmen of westeros.. hes lost tourneys to mid rank knights like jorah mormont and was unable to beat eddard stark. killing fodder stark men while being captured isnt a good feat.

jaime is hyped as one of the best in the show. but then according to ramsay, so is jon. so i see it going down to skill. jon has a rough style that relies on agility. jaime is even faster, has much heavier armor, and trained all his life alongside legends in the kingsguard like dayne.

when tyrion named jaime as his champion, every elite arryn knight visibly were fearful

. hes lost tourneys to mid rank knights like jorah mormont and was unable to beat eddard stark

can jon?

Jaimie was only really shown with all his faculties and at full fighting power one time vs Ned.

Then there's the story of his capture fighting Rob Stark's army where he killed 10 men before they subdued him, and after that he's been mal-nourished, cramped, weak and handless in every fight since.

We didn't really get to see him do his thing except the one time.

That said, GRR Martin has always maintained that Jaimie was the best swordsman in westeros at the height of his power. Rob is good, much better than most around him, but he's not what Jaimie was.

Jaimie should have this no problem.

Round 1 - Jaime wins handily.

Round 2 - Jaime slaughters. Mismatch.

Round 3 - Jon stomps.

1. Jaime wins easy

2. Jaime absolutely curbstomps

3. I don't know. Good fight.

1: Jaime

2: Jaime absolutely stomps

3: Hard to say really. Jaime killed a biiiig number of Robb's men when they captured him, even if it was off screen, exhausted and badly fed and tied up was giving Brienne a VERY hard time. (In the books, her mindset in that fight is that she was truly scared of how good he was, even bound and exhausted).... Jon was losing to that dagger piece of shit from Fleabottom, i don't see that guy giving Jaime a hard time. He was toying with Ned Stark in their fight..... On the other hand, Jon has some VERY impressive feats and they are indeed superior to Jaimie... so, i'll leave it at:

A: Implied skill, Jaimie wrecks

B: Actual feats, Jon wins.

Jaime Lannister

Something to note also: on-screen feats are not the end all of what a character is capable of in a show. Jamie only had one fight while at his prime, that doesn't mean it was the high water mark of his abilities. Jamie killing ten men while they tried to capture him is cannon for the show.

So on that account, Jamie's best feat on the show is killing ten men who tried to capture him. Not his fight with Ned, just because it was on film.

Same thing with Robert Baratheon, or Barriston Selmy. We saw those guys when they were old, but by all account Robert was a beast in his prime, and Barriston even more so. That is the reality of the show.

R1: Jaime

R2: Jaime

R3: Jon

Jon, King in the North.

RD 1 and 2 are Jaime, round 2 by a landslide. Round 3 Jon, because the show has really, heavily played up Jon's fighting ability. Also played up Ned's fighting ability. Jon and Ned are middling fighters in the book.

@eldorian: @fortified_hooligan: @20damon: Don't discount the Jory feat. In the books, Jory is one of the elite fighters in the north (behind GreatJon of course) but they really play up his skill and how he is at a minimum equal swordsman to most Knights. When he dies in the books they are outnumbered 4 to 1 and Jory actually fights himself free. The only reason he died is to go back and try and protect Ned.

The show is a bit different but I get the sense that he's very skilled since he's battle hardened, the captain of guards and als because he fodderized Jaime's men. Jaime in turn fodderized him as if Joey wasn't even on his radar.

@cregan_stark: I just watched Jory Cassel's death again, and he is a good fighter, and Jaime does kill him easily. Jaime killed him with a hidden dagger attack, however, not a feat of swordsmanship. Probably Jaime's best feat is his close loss to Brienne with his hands bound, wearing rags, while she wears high quality plate armor (though it was much, much closer in the book). Brienne won a Melee in Renly's camp, beating Ser Loras to win, and has several other high quality feats, such as beating the Hound. I'm sure she'd beat show Jon based on feats.

Hmm, you may have convinced me even show Jaime takes Jon. In character, the Lannisters seem to think that Jaime would win any trials by combat they're in. Tyrion seems to think that Jamie can beat any Knight of the Vale, for example.

We cant judge based on Jaime's fight with Brienne, and it didnt really seem to be that close of a fight. When Jaime lost to Brienne, he had already been a prisoner for some time and was not in great shape. His hands were also tied together and he wasnt wearing any armor, or even decent shoes. He was a bit of a wreck. So it's not surprising that Brienne won. I think at his best he would have won that fight.

John Snow doesnt know enough to beat Jaime

@eldorian: @willpayton: In the books Brienne outright states that no one could stand against him if he was healthy and unchained

Exact Quote:

"He was weak from imprisonment, and chained at the wrists. No knight in the Seven Kingdoms could have stood against him at his full strength, with no chains to hamper him. Jaime had done many wicked things, but the man could fight! His maiming had been monstrously cruel. It was one thing to slay a lion, another to hack his paw off and leave him broken and bewildered. [26] ”

– Brienne of Tarth remembering her fight with Jaime prior to him losing his sword hand

@cregan_stark: Good point

If Jaime has his hand, he stomps.

Even in the show, we've simply never seen Jon so totally and completely dominate a fighter of known skill. The only similar feats in the series I can think of are Dayne vs Ned + 3 and Drogo vs Mago.

@rogueshadow:

Is he known for his skill though? Being captain of someones personal guard doesn't mean a whole lot during current GoT, at least on the show.

And even then he beat him playing dirty (they didn't really even fight), not so much in a way that indicated he was significantly more skilled then his opponent (which we would've know if they actually had've fought with swords as opposed to a quick shank).

And I don't think it's remotely comparable to Dayne's or even Drogo's feat.

We'd just seen Jory easily eliminate two guards, and being the captain of the guard to the Warden of the North is nothing to be sniffed at, but I'm not really considering that due to nepotism. Also understand, Jory, Ned, even Frey lords, they train from the time they are 6 or 7 extensively, they do this for their entire childhoods and beyond. Barring exceptional instances like Samwell Tarly, most highborns are of a certain standard. You can't compare them with a generic peasant soldier, which is what most armies are made up of, which would define true 'fodder' for the GoTverse. That's not really playing dirty, he locked his blade and then took him out. Fighting dirty would be to spit in his eye or stamp on his foot. Even then it doesn't really matter since that's a factor in a fight.

Not comparable to Dayne's feat, I agree, that's next level, I meant similar in that they decimate somebody of proven skill, Barristan's feat against 12 is also superior, but it's not similar in that it's sheer numbers as opposed to when Dayne took out Ned alone (after beating the others) and didn't seem to break a sweat. Though that was noticeably more extensive.

I'd put it on par with Drogo's feat, both basically punked somebody of skill (we could tell by the length of Mago's braid), but Drogo's displayed superior speed, or at least agility. Jaime barely even blinked, it was like swatting a fly. I just don't think Jon is there yet, I want to see him beat somebody of real skill before I give him these types of victories.

@rogueshadow:

We'd just seen Jory literally easily eliminate two guards, and being the captain of the guard to the warden of the North is nothing to be sniffed at. Also understand, Jory, Ned, even Frey lords, they train from the time they are 6 or 7 extensively, they do this daily for their entire childhoods.

It's all well and good to train but that doesn't always equate to a high level of skill, although I agree and think Jory was meant to be a formidable warrior. I think he lost so easily because;

That's not really playing dirty, he locked his blade and then took him out. Fighting dirty would be to spit in his eye or stamp on his foot. Even then it doesn't really matter since that's a factor in a fight.

..of this. Maybe it isn't truly dirty fighting but it certainly seems underhanded. I think it was entirely to do with Jory not expecting it or even letting his emotions getting the better of him, rather then Jamie outskilling him to the degree you're claiming here (unless you'd also agree that Ned=Jamie>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jory, which just seems wrong imo).

I'd put it on par with Drogo's feat, both basically punked somebody of skill (we could tell by the length of Mago's braid), but Drogo's displayed superior speed, or at least agility, Jaime barely even blinked, it was like swatting a fly.

Like I said above, I think Jamie's feat is a single, hard to replicate instance.

Drogo on the other hand completely destroyed his opponent, unarmed, to such a degree that he looked stupid. That's not the same as landing a cheap shot on a good fighter, then going on to fight to a near stand still against his lord.

It sets a certain standard, training for one's entire life will inevitably place one above a Widlling farmer or a Westerosi peasant such as Jon slays on the regular.

I can appreciate your stance, the honourable way would have been pure swords, but the fact he was quick and skilled enough to get him with his dirk on him, to me, is extremely impressive and ultimately fair, he locked Jory's blade and then slew him, he simply outmanoeuvred him, Jory was outclassed. But even if you argue the opposite, I don't think it matters at the end of the day, even if you consider it dirty, it's a tool in Jaime's arsenal and it results in the exact same function, so we're just arguing semantics, it's not like when Jon fought Styr was disarmed, then gets the net, gets thrown around etc., what Jaime did is the type of combat he could replicate in an actual fight and wasn't predicated on luck. The exact same move, no, maybe one time in 50, no two fights are the same, but it does set a precedent for his skillset, even if it can be considered underhanded.

Ned just seemed to be amped in the show, they even had him last against Dayne, whereas in the books Ned vs Jaime likely plays out much like Jaime vs Jory on the show. There's also some difficulty in how much Jaime was being serious, and part of me can't help but think that the part where he has the smile as they both recoil is him thinking 'This... this is the guy who beat Arthur Dayne?' but that's neither here nor there. We also have to remember that he couldn't kill him, as Tyrion's life was at stake, but his later conversation with Tywin contradicts that and suggests the only reason he didn't kill him was that 'it wouldn't have been clean'... so it's very up in the air.

I'll never pass up an opportunity to say Drogo's a beast, so if you wanna say his feat is better, have at it.

@rogueshadow: Ser Arthur Dayne has by far the best swordsman feat in the show and book. Those men with Ned were also castle trained (trained in martial arts from childhood by legit masters), other than Howland Reed, who is from an odd house. Still he was trained in combat, just not knightly combat.

Drogo's feats were also very good. Not Arthur Dayne's level, but you know he's won a lot of duels based on his status as High Khal.

Thoros of Myr also had some impressive feats, including winning the Melee in celebration of Ned becoming hand (his wiki mentions he beat Sander Clegane in melees at least 3 times), and he was first thru the breach at the siege of Pyke, which is basically a suicide mission. Ser Jorah was right behind him. Jorah is a high tier fighter as well. Not on the level of Jaime or Thoros or Drogo. Or Jon in the show. In fact, Jorah is pretty poor in the show.

@eldorian: Thoros only beat the Houn because of his flaming sword. He beat other opponents due to this as well, it's stated that his sword would scare the horses of his opponents. When the sword wasn't flaming; Bronze Yohn made short work of him.

Why would they hype Jaime as top-tier and a member of the elite Kingsguard (which was Champions League at the time) if he would lose to Jon?

@rabumalal: Jaime is definitely too tier, he's just nerfed in the show a bit. I do think he'd beat Jon though.

As for Kingsguard, Robert's Kingsguard wasn't anything special outside of Jaime and Barristan. Mandon Moore would tough but I wouldn't say he's special, I'd rank him solidly below someone like Jory in the books.

@eldorian said:

Arthur Dayne isn't by far the best swordsman in the books. He is Barristan's equal without Dawn and there are others who can contend or equal him throughout history. Crannogmen are untrained in conventional knightly combat, in that regard he wasn't much better than a peasant, and we saw what short work Dayne made of him.

He defeated Sandor 3 time because he wields a flaming sword which spooked the Horses and in Clegane's case, Sandor himself. Also note that Royce beat him once his swords gutted out, and as skilled as Royce is, he's not Sandor. Pyke wasn't a suicide mission, the Crown's forces wrecked Balon. I also disagree that Jorah is poor on the show. Look at the pit fighters in the Telltale game, Beshka even states (in hyperbole of course, but still noteworthy) each one is worth 10 sellswords, and he was taking on some of the best in the entire world. He's not a Jaime Lannister or a Sandor Clegane, but he wouldn't go down to them without a fight. Plus he defeated Qotho and had an impressive display against the Yunkai soldiers alongside Daarion and GW.

Also, I'm not sure what your point was (not being sarcastic)?

I feel like show Jon is a much more versatile fighter than Jaime (I say that because I haven't read the books). It should be taken into account that where jaime has only really taken on conventional fighters (and that's just hype pretty much) Jon has fought everything from huge lumbering brutes (e.g the magnar or thenn), quick dagger wielding cut throats, wights, conventional soldiers, wildlings, trained in a similar way to most highborns such as jaimie, and IIRC is the only person in the GoT series to have beaten a white walker in one on one combat.

Even by reputation Ramsey mentioned that people spoke of Jon as the best swordsman who ever lived, I really don't see how jaimie stomps show Jon at all. His best feat is killing 10 men before being captured (and we aren't sure if the figure 10 is just an exaggeration), whereas in the battle of the bastards alone you can probably count and infer Jon killing many more than that.

1-2 jaime

3 jon

anyone remember how he shined during the battle of bastards, evading close range shot arrows from an enhanced bow and shit

thats above tv show jaime by a long shot

Jaime all three rounds.

Are people forgetting that even Show!Jaime was able to cut down ten of Robb Stark's men before he was finally captured? That is just under Barristan's feat of killing twelve Sons of the Harpy before he died.

He also contended with Show!Brienne who in turn is equal to or slightly better than the Hound while he was half-starved and just got back from spending a year in a cage. While his hands were bound together. And fought Show!Ned pretty evenly in their short fight, who in turn was able to contend with Arthur Dayne when he was much younger and less experienced.

What has Jon done that puts him in these tiers? Everyone I've mentioned aside from Ned have feats of taking on multiple opponents simultaneously. In Battle of the Bastards most of Jon's kills were 1v1, and he's only ever beaten no name characters in duels.

This

People are saying Jaime beat 10 of Robb´s men as if it were impressive, and yes it is, but Jon took out much more in the Battle of the Bastards, the way he easily disposed of them showed Jon is an extremely skilled warrior.

I don´t read the books, but tv versions, Jon beats Jaime.

Jaime was outnumbered approximately 20:1, Jon was not.