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#1 Edited by Jokergeist (4715 posts) - - Show Bio

A mysterious message for 'Wolverine'

Dear Wolverine,

We have recently sighted an impostor of yours, who for some reason is called "Ultimate Wolverine." We are certain that only you, the true Wolverine, are capable of putting an end to this impostor. You will be sent to a tropical island near Costa Rica, which we have evacuated of all tourists. There, you must find and kill this impostor, who poses a threat to your identity. You may bring two associates to assist you on this mission. Thank you, and good luck.

Sincerely,

Anonymous

Elsewhere, another message is received...

Dear Ultimate Wolverine,

We have recently sighted an impostor of yours, who goes by an abridged version of your name: "Wolverine." We are certain that only you, the true Wolverine, are capable of putting an end to this impostor. You will be sent to a tropical island near Costa Rica, which we have evacuated of all tourists. There, you must find and kill this impostor, who poses a threat to your identity. You may bring two associates to assist you on this mission. Thank you, and good luck.

Sincerely,

Anonymous

Location: Jurassic Park

Distance from Red to Blue: 6 miles
Distance from Red to Blue: 6 miles
  • Dinosaurs are scattered throughout the island. Species and locations are marked.
  • Green Icons = slightly-dangerous species, Red Icons = highly-lethal species.
  • Dinosaurs will attack if provoked.

@sovereign91001Ninja meets Samurai starts at Blue

@cadencev2Team Ultimate X-Men starts at Red

Battle Conditions

  • Team Ultimate X-Men has no knowledge of the opposing team, besides that Wolverine is here.
  • No prep is given. This is a search-and-destroy hunt.
  • Fight to the death.
  • In-Character

Objective:

  • Kill the opposing team
  • Leave Jurassic Park via The Port

The Teams

@sovereign91001

Ninja meets Samurai

  • Wolverine
  • Kakashi - kunai, shuriken, explosive tags, summon scroll, smoke bombs
  • Psylocke
    • Goodie Bag: The Mystery Bag
    • Perfect Teamwork, Full Knowledge, Morals Off

VS

@cadencev2

Team Ultimate X-Men

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#2 Edited by Jokergeist (4715 posts) - - Show Bio

How the Battle Computer works:

Function) It scans an opponent's brain, obtaining Full Knowledge of his strengths/weaknesses, and processes a given combat situation millions of times almost instantly covering nearly every possible result. It can play out combat-scenarios to more than one opponent simultaneously, but with more difficulty. It is most effective when dealing with a single opponent.

Combat-Exclusive) The Battle Computer was designed for combat. Its uses are combat-exclusive, meaning it only works during a direct fight. It only functions during a given combat situation, meaning when its user is directly fighting an opponent. Only when it acknowledges a fight unfolding then it can scan the thoughts of opponents.

Battle Computer ≠ Instant Full Knowledge) The Battle CPU is not an unlimited database containing information of everyone and everything in the whole universe. It's a device made for combat; It only obtains Full Knowledge of people who engage in combat, but has no knowledge until battle has initiated.

*Keep in mind that its user is limited to a month of practice with the Battle Computer.

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#3 Edited by Sovereign91001 (6838 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Edited by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

Battle CPU goes to Rogue. (Shocking I know!) All 3 Model Decoys are of Wolverine. Hand Phaser goes to Wolverine.

With this in mind, I start this battle with Rogue doing what she does best, Absorbing Xaviers and Wolverine Powers. Since Xavier is on Banshee, it grants him all Wolverines Healing, Bone claws, and Senses.

So lets recap.

Wolverine: Immunity to Mind Reading and Mind Control. Healing. Adamantium. Adamantium Claws. Senses.

Rogue: Healing. Bone Claws. Senses. Telepathy. Telekinesis. Death Touch. Power Absorbing. Battle Computer.

Xavier: Healing. Bone Claws. Senses. Telepathy. Telekinesis.

So..... I think your team is so dang screwed right off the bat! I mean I have 3 Wolverine Decoys and Helpers running around with Adamantium Claws which makes it not only harder for you to target the real wolverine, but out numbers you as well with 3 potential threats.

Lastly I have Rogue TP linking (Wolverine can by pass his Weapon X Mental Training when he wants to) my team with all your powers and abilities as well!

I have all the senses rendering your teams Invisbility and ninja tactics useless.

I have 2 people with incredible Mind Raping ability. You have Psylock vs 2 Xavier level skilled (Rogue absorbs skill and knowledge as well with a touch) and power beings.

Lastly I have 3 Healers with Wolverine Healing, how are you putting them down?

I... I just cannot lose. This is the Ultimate Team beating down the overrated originals and a Naruto guy. Your move.

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#5 Edited by DeathSamurai (587 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: .......wow......didn't see any of that coming lol

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#6 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4766 posts) - - Show Bio

oh good god it's cadencev2 with an ultimate character vs a 616 character

MASSACRE

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#7 Edited by Sovereign91001 (6838 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Don't count your chickens yet, we've just started.

Now as for your team let's begin with their telepathy, the first restriction is range; we have to be within 300 feet to use telepathy against my team. Secondly your teams telepathy isn't an autowin here,

Psylocke can mask my team to your team telepathic scans, making my team functionally invisible to your TP, in addition she can use the usual psychic tricks of shielding my team, creating illusion, manipulating senses and all that.

3150615-x-men #001 - rubicon - 16.jpg

In addition she can use her T.K to make my team visually invisible

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Hell she can even hide herself from Wolverine's enhanced senses

3150620-wolverine v2 125 38-39 (1998) (c2c) (darthmedio-dcp).jpg

And all of those feats were from before she got her most recent power up.

This means your team can't even detect my team if I don't want them too (I'll get into that in a bet).

My team has enhanced senses as well, Kakashi and Logan both have outstanding sense of smells, and of course Betsy is a telepath meaning your team can't approach mine without them knowing and the LMD misdirection should prove useless as well.

The Battle Computer is far from a instant win as well, while it does increase reaction times and all that you have to actually determine which of those millions of scenarios is the most likely to occur. A weakness that has bitten Midnighter in the rear before and one that will almost certainly come to bite your team in the rear end on account of 1. Who it was given too and 2. The limited practice time granted to master it. This could be countered somewhat with T.P but Betsy has basically shut out your teams ability to scan mine so it becomes little more than a guessing game on your part based on millions of probabilities. Not to mention the sheer amount of information being processed is enough to overload a normal brain.

If it had been on someone like Sage or another character who usually processes analyzes huge amounts of data it'd be another story but it's not.

And on top of all of that I have a couple of ways to nuetralize it and your other perks, but I'll get into that if and when it comes up.

Now your team is here hunting for Wolverine and they think Wolverine is alone so my team is going to let them continue thinking that for now.

IMO you made a big flaw right off the bat by linking your team up, you've effectively given Psylocke a way into Wolverine's head as he's 'turned off' his defenses to give Rogue access, we'll have to see if that comes into play later in the battle.

Numbers while a concern aren't a huge issue, Kakashi can bring reinforcements via shadow clones and his ninkin.

Speaking of Kakashi, he is a strategic and tactical genius, exploiting weak points and coming up with plans in the heat of battle is his thing add that to my knowledge and your teams lack of it are also going are not clear cut and dry.

As for how can my team put yours down?

1. Decapitation; 616 Adamantium is much stronger than 1610 Adamantium so I should in theory be able to cut your Wolverine's head off (like Ult. Logan did to Sabertooth), in addition to that Wolverine's joints aren't covered in the stuff so their should be a weak point. The rest of your team doesn't have the Adamantium protecting them so they're vulnerable there.

2. Drowning; an effective way to take down healers as seen in Wolverine's fight with Daken; getting water shouldn't be a problem either thanks to Kakashi.

3. Genjutsu- Kakashi's Sharingan can hypnotize his opponents; this should function much in the way Fantomex's misdirection does in that it bypasses psychic defense as it's not a psionic attack.

That's three off the top of my head, I have a couple others I'm gonna keep to myself for now but the healing factor isn't going to be the deciding factor imo.

So tag, you're it.

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#8 Edited by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001:

Don't count your chickens yet, we've just started.

3151109-capture.png

Now as for your team let's begin with their telepathy, the first restriction is range; we have to be within 300 feet to use telepathy against my team. Secondly your teams telepathy isn't an autowin here,

I never said my Telepathy is beyond the tourney limits hitting you. I simply stated I have Telepathy making sure anyone within 300 meters is mind raped.

As for it being a auto win, it really is.

3151112-xavier feat tp trances.jpg
3151113-xavier feat tp vs shield agents.jpg

Psylocke can mask my team to your team telepathic scans, making my team functionally invisible to your TP, in addition she can use the usual psychic tricks of shielding my team, creating illusion, manipulating senses and all that.

Oh Ho but you forget the Battle Computer will know this and pinpoint your team anyway!

3151115-capture.png

As for making her invisible to my team, that is only good for weaker Telepthas. Many times a Telepath masks the minds of a team or themselves only to have a stronger one detect them.

And since the Battle CPU and Wolverine Senses on all my guys know where your going to be at anyway....

In addition she can use her T.K to make my team visually invisible

Oh no, not invisible. I guess I will have to smell them out then!

3147240-1.png
3147241-2.png
3147242-3.png

Nuff Said.

Hell she can even hide herself from Wolverine's enhanced senses

And all of those feats were from before she got her most recent power up.

She still does not match Jean or Xavier. Same Xavier who match Phoenix!

3151122-phoenix vs hellfire club and xavier #25 (5).png
3151123-phoenix vs hellfire club and xavier #25 (6).png
3151124-phoenix vs hellfire club and xavier #25 (7).png

Psylock is not matching to beings with that TP at all.

This means your team can't even detect my team if I don't want them too (I'll get into that in a bet).

Same could be said of mine as Xavier shown.

Thank god I have a Battle CPU that knows where you are at and 3 characters with Wolverine Senses.

My team has enhanced senses as well, Kakashi and Logan both have outstanding sense of smells, and of course Betsy is a telepath meaning your team can't approach mine without them knowing and the LMD misdirection should prove useless as well.

Im not hiding, I am coming straight for you with TK Shields up and ready to manhandle your team.

The Battle Computer is far from a instant win as well, while it does increase reaction times and all that you have to actually determine which of those millions of scenarios is the most likely to occur. A weakness that has bitten Midnighter in the rear before and one that will almost certainly come to bite your team in the rear end on account of 1. Who it was given too and 2. The limited practice time granted to master it. This could be countered somewhat with T.P but Betsy has basically shut out your teams ability to scan mine so it becomes little more than a guessing game on your part based on millions of probabilities. Not to mention the sheer amount of information being processed is enough to overload a normal brain.

Still better than what you have. Here is another HUGE hole in your argument.

Betsy and Multitasking. I have 2 Xavier Level Telepaths above her, and your using the weaker telepath to...

1) TP hide.

2) TK Invisible.

3) Try to TP read my own team.

I cant help but point out the obvious your stretching her thin in all the powers she is doing against 2 superior telepaths. She is going to easily break.

If it had been on someone like Sage or another character who usually processes analyzes huge amounts of data it'd be another story but it's not.

Thats right.

And on top of all of that I have a couple of ways to nuetralize it and your other perks, but I'll get into that if and when it comes up.

Now your team is here hunting for Wolverine and they think Wolverine is alone so my team is going to let them continue thinking that for now.

I know where Wolverine is... senses, Telepathy, and Battle CPU.

IMO you made a big flaw right off the bat by linking your team up, you've effectively given Psylocke a way into Wolverine's head as he's 'turned off' his defenses to give Rogue access, we'll have to see if that comes into play later in the battle.

LOL not really, I have 2 Telepaths vs your one weaker telepath! Uoy attack Wolverine mind now your doing 4 things, dude, your so stretch thin with Betsy I can safely say she gets mind raped now. End of story.

Also Wolverine can turn them right back on.

3151126-wolvie feat immune to mind controle (1).png
3151127-wolvie feat immune to mind controle (2).png

Numbers while a concern aren't a huge issue, Kakashi can bring reinforcements via shadow clones and his ninkin.

Shadow Clones die in one tap, And I can smell and Mind read which ones are real and not. Battle CPU will also see right thru this.

Shadow Clones are a none factor.

Speaking of Kakashi, he is a strategic and tactical genius, exploiting weak points and coming up with plans in the heat of battle is his thing add that to my knowledge and your teams lack of it are also going are not clear cut and dry.

I have lack of Skill? Wolverine Skill is the top 3 in Ultimate Marvel and Wolverine copies skills with powers, not that she needs it as a very season Weapon X, Brother Hood, and X-Men. Xavier is like wise a tactical genius.

1. Decapitation; 616 Adamantium is much stronger than 1610 Adamantium so I should in theory be able to cut your Wolverine's head off (like Ult. Logan did to Sabertooth), in addition to that Wolverine's joints aren't covered in the stuff so their should be a weak point. The rest of your team doesn't have the Adamantium protecting them so they're vulnerable there.

OMG U DID NOT GO THERE!

Ultimate Adamantium

Alright, there is a huge ISSUE of people believing Ultimate Verse Adamantium is weaker to 616 base on NO REAL EVIDENCE!

2716339-wolvie_bio.jpg

Even Mention in his Official Bio as unbreakable Adamantium.

3025393-wolvie vs yuri #59 (4).jpg

Yuri here is explained by Professor Cornelius (who made ultimate Wolverine Skeleton) that some parts of his Body has not been Ossified. This stands to reasons unlike 616 Wolverine who has IMPOSSIBLE Adamantium Joints Ultimate Wolvie does not. Only his Bones (except the one above) are coated. He can be with great strength ripped apart.

So lets look at this suppose Adamantium Breaking.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

1-2) Both Examples of the Spine and Neck Joints being ripped apart. Not the Bones Breaking.

3-4) Again No Bones breaking, more examples of Joint area Ripping out!

So from we see, the Bones were never broken. He was pulled apart people!

Also misinformation from Wikias.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

1) Hulk does not break Adamantium Tip Needle, he breaks the non Adamantium Vial part in Caps Hand.

2) Sabertooth does not break a Adamantium claw. It was always like that in its first appearance, for no explain reason. Perhaps they ran out of Adamantium.

3) This Adamantium Cage does not break, the Cage is whole and open. Did it have a Mechanize Lock that burned out? I see no damage to the cage.

4-5) Captain America's Shield was NEVER stated to be Adamantium. It was made by Henry Pym and Cap said it was Indestructible. Simple as that. His new Shield was made from Asgard Dwarven Smiths.

No Scan) Death Strike had her neck broken. Long Shot Reality Warps with his Luck Powers. No scan, Sry.

Wow look at that! You now are educated and realize your decap trick is useless.

2. Drowning; an effective way to take down healers as seen in Wolverine's fight with Daken; getting water shouldn't be a problem either thanks to Kakashi.

So your team with one healer and 2 easily killabble guys will beat through my 3 healers who are mind raping your team?

3. Genjutsu- Kakashi's Sharingan can hypnotize his opponents; this should function much in the way Fantomex's misdirection does in that it bypasses psychic defense as it's not a psionic attack.

Only if I look at Kakashi and guess what? BATTLE CPU will warn me way ahead of time that is if I do not Mind Read it first!

Meanwhile Kakashi has no luck being Mind Raped and diced.

That's three off the top of my head, I have a couple others I'm gonna keep to myself for now but the healing factor isn't going to be the deciding factor imo.

You have really shown nothing realistic or good chance of winning so far.

This is a easy win for my team that counters 90% of your teams move in the early stages.

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#9 Posted by Wardemon32 (5486 posts) - - Show Bio

This is looking good

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#10 Edited by Sovereign91001 (6838 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

LOL not really, I have 2 Telepaths vs your one weaker telepath! Uoy attack Wolverine mind now your doing 4 things, dude, your so stretch thin with Betsy I can safely say she gets mind raped now. End of story.

Here is another HUGE hole in your argument.

Betsy and Multitasking. I have 2 Xavier Level Telepaths above her, and your using the weaker telepath to...

1) TP hide.

2) TK Invisible.

3) Try to TP read my own team.

I cant help but point out the obvious your stretching her thin in all the powers she is doing against 2 superior telepaths. She is going to easily break.

Hardly.

1. She's not doing anything yet (I haven't posted a strategy yet); I was showing what she could do.

2. Rogue has a portion of Xavier's TP, not all of it.

3.Current Psylocke is an Omega with Xavier/Jean Grey level TP as of X-Force 18

Here's a quote from Rick Remender about her current power level:

"The Jean Grey of the "Age of Apocalypse" reality opened Betsy's mind up. She unlocked a lot of stuff. In this issue, you saw the giant, Phoenix-like butterfly effect Betsy generated when she was fighting Archangel. She knocked him down with that. No one had accomplished that to this point -- she hadn't been able to get into his mind before that either. He had just been this thing that was way, way beyond her. Whatever Jean Grey did when she was inside Betsy's head unlocked some potential."

"We're going to be seeing a lot of that. She is an Omega level. One thing we wanted to accomplish with this story was that Betsy comes out a full fledged Omega level mutant, on par with Xavier or Jean. In my mind, that's what was accomplished when Jean unlocked the powers in her head."

(Here's the link so you can verify if you wish) http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=35905

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Following that she fought (and overpowered) the Shadow King in X-Force 33. The same Shadow King who mind controlled all of 616 Earth before. The same Shadow King who is stronger than 616 Xavier.

As for making her invisible to my team, that is only good for weaker Telepthas. Many times a Telepath masks the minds of a team or themselves only to have a stronger one detect them.

So by that logic in the scan I posted where Psylocke (pre power up) managed to obscure Logan from Jean Grey's TP scans you would be saying that Psylocke is the stronger psychic. As I just showed above she's only recently been elevated to that level of power so that theory was just shot in the foot.

Psylocke is not the weaker Telepath here; she's not the weaker telekinetic either.

Alright, there is a huge ISSUE of people believing Ultimate Verse Adamantium is weaker to 616 base on NO REAL EVIDENCE!

If Ultimate Adamantium is indestructible like 616 Adamantium how was Ult. Wolverine able to cut Ult. Sabertooth's head off? A feat that can't be done with 616 Adamantium without a special weapon like the M-Blade. There are vertabrae in the neck that he'd have to sever in order to decapitate him so there is no reason my Wolverine shouldn't be able to do the same thing to your Wolverine.

Shadow Clones die in one tap, And I can smell and Mind read which ones are real and not. Battle CPU will also see right thru this.

Shadow Clones are a none factor.

Shadow clones are real bodies not illusions.

3130459-ch315_uk_page_02.png

That means they'll have scent; the same scent as Kakashi. They can also utilize all the techniques the original can so I've just added another layer of probability for your battle CPU to calculate; more possibilities for Rogue to try and deduce if they are correct or not.

if you're looking past them as a non-factor you're gonna get burned.

Regarding the Battle Computer:

1. Like I said before it's a guessing game as to which probability is the correct one, it's a literal one-in-a-million chance that you'd guess correctly as to which scenario is the correct one. You say about genjutsu and all that that the CPU gives you a heads up while that is true it is much more likely from a statistical standpoint that Rogue will guess incorrectly the vast majority of the time due to the sheer number of probabilities. You've also info dumped those scenario's to Wolverine which is a mistake imo that I'll get too in a bit. Relying too heavily on the Battle CPU as a autowin and get-out-of-jail-free card is a huge factor here and imo a large mistake on your part.

2. You put it on Rogue who you had absorb the memories/skills of Xavier and Logan prior so her brain power is already cut in thirds, then she has to use the thing and determine the correct probability out of millions of scenarios all while being telepathically linked to Wolverine and any other telepathic shenanigans you're doing. There is a very realistic possibility that you've crippled her; she should at the very least be suffering from an extreme case of information overload. Rogue isn't a living computer or a character who's known for being overly intelligent; she's likely over burdened.

3. The Battle computer works for who is using it, the fact that you have Rogue linked to Wolverine doesn't help him in the least if they are fighting separate opponents, the CPU isn't going to calculate probabilities for Wolverine and if it does you've effectively cut Rogue's chance of guessing correctly in half.

4. The Battle computer isn't foolproof; even for Midnighter. It isn't going to be for someone who has less experience using it.

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#11 Edited by Jokergeist (4715 posts) - - Show Bio
@cadencev2 said:

Thank god I have a Battle CPU that knows where you are at

Just so you know the Battle CPU doesn't know their location right off the bat. It has to scan them first, which is impossible if it's unaware that Kakashi and Psylocke are even here in the first place.

On the other hand, @sovereign91001 does know your starting point due to Full Knowledge.

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#12 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

Thank god I have a Battle CPU that knows where you are at

Just so you know the Battle CPU doesn't know their location right off the bat. It has to scan them first, which is impossible if it's unaware that Kakashi and Psylocke are even here in the first place.

On the other hand, @sovereign91001 does know your starting point due to Full Knowledge.

His Invisibility is only proven invisble to Sight. Nowhere does it prove to hide his brain electrons firing from a brain electron finding Battle PC.

Nor change the fact I do know there is a Wolverine character I have to kill from the get go. And the fact I have 3 super senses on my characters.

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#13 Edited by Jokergeist (4715 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: What is the maximum range that the Battle Computer can scan for electrons? I mean wouldn't that mean that the Battle CPU is also acquiring brain signals from all the dinosaurs in the prominent area? Can the Battle CPU locate Wolverine, Kakashi, and Psylocke's brain electrons from 6 miles away in the opening second?

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#14 Edited by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: What is the maximum range that the Battle Computer can scan for electrons? I mean wouldn't that mean that the Battle CPU is also acquiring brain signals from all the dinosaurs in the prominent area? Can the Battle CPU locate Wolverine, Kakashi, and Psylocke's brain electrons from 6 miles away in the opening second?

See this scan?

3151115-capture.png

Midnighter had this handed in advance. As in he knew from a great distance what this guy was going to do. I am not a Wild Storm expert. I just go by the fact that Battle CPU is one of the most half explain hax items in comics.

Its instant Full Knowledge and statistic device.

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#15 Edited by Jokergeist (4715 posts) - - Show Bio
@cadencev2 said:

Its instant Full Knowledge and statistic device.

You're just assuming that. Unless you have actual evidence, then no. All that scan shows is a card; Midnighter had scanned the man holding the card in advance, and was therefore able to send it in advance. Plus they're used for intimidation purposes.

Assumptions aren't viable in these debates, only actual feats are. Since the Battle CPU has limited info as you say, then it has limited power as well. Only abilities that have been shown before can be used in feat-based debates. If it has never shown to work from vast distances before, we cannot assume that it can. It's not Full Knowledge unless you can prove otherwise.. and it being a statistic device isn't proof.

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#16 Edited by Sovereign91001 (6838 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2

He had a ton of those cards made and if memory serves they were used (mainly) for intimidation purposes.

So let's get on with my strategy.

Psylocke is going to start out by putting up telepathic shields in Kakashi's brain, and impart her knowledge in his head on how to defend from a psychic attack. Wolverine already has great TP resistance with shields from Xavier and Jean. Betsy can defend herself just fine.

As I've already shown Betsy can mask herself from Logan's senses when she's practically on top of him so she'll do the same thing for herself and Kakashi. She'll also hide the two of them from your teams psychic probes.

My team will move to the blue arrow.

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Now as far as your team knows Wolverine is here alone and they'll continue to think so as they can't sense Psylocke and Kakashi.

They'll get to a vantage point and keep a lookout for Logan; sensing your teams approach and monitoring any approach, whether visual or not shouldn't be a problem for my team as they now have the high ground.

When your team gets within 300 feet to use their T.P they'll think he's alone so Betsy and Kakashi will ambush them After springing my ambush Betsy will drop the camouflage (there's no need for it anymore) and my team will attack their targets.

616 Wolverine will go for 1610 Wolverine.

616 Wolverine has an experience advantage over 1610 Wolverine, a greater repertoire of skills, more durable adamantium and arguably better healing. Ultimate does have a phaser but like a firearm it shouldn't be effective within a certain range (given Logan's speed I'd say 100 feet). It'll be a long nasty fight but the advantages my Wolverine carry should win the day.

Kakashi will go for Rogue

Kakashi in the Narutoverse is known as the ninja of 1,000 jutsu. Now while that is largely hyperbole

he does have over two dozen jutsu that he's showcased at one point or another; in addition to the variety of other ways he can attack; this works to my advantage. Rogue's Battle computer will have to calculate the dozens of ways Kakashi can attack her and the various combination of techniques in the millions of scenarios in her head which should also reduce the effectiveness of the portion of Xavier's TP she absorbed.

Add in Kakashi's tactical skill and I have the perfect storm of circumstances to take her down. He's got a couple of ways he can take her down as well since he has no morals: drowning, decapitation, an explosive tag on the head, immobilizing via the head hunter technique, genjutsu etc.

Betsy will go for Xavier

Betsy should outclass Ultimate Xavier in terms off TK, and h2h and I want to say TP as well so any combination of those he wants to engage in she should be fine.

In terms of h2h she has extensive training, including from AOA Sabertooth; the hand and other sources. She's been able to stalemate 616 Wolverine, she's flat out beaten alternate versions of Wolverine and she's beaten ninja masters.

In terms of TK Betsy has feats that put her in the upper echilon of TK users in 616, if Xavier wants to get into a battle of T.K it'll end with her popping his head like an overcooked hotdog.

Her TP is also very potent and she should not be underestimated as a 'second tier' psychic, she's at the Omega level of telepaths and at the very least would match 1610 Xavier and at the most would beat him.

Now while he does have a healing factor Psylocke has a Katana that can sever his head from it's shoulders

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#17 Edited by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001:

You're just assuming that. Unless you have actual evidence, then no. All that scan shows is a card; Midnighter had scanned the man holding the card in advance, and was therefore able to send it in advance.

Assumptions aren't viable in these debates, only actual feats are. Since the Battle CPU has limited info as you say, then it has limited power as well. Only abilities that have been shown before can be used in feat-based debates. If it has never shown to work from vast distances before, we cannot assume that it can. It's not Full Knowledge unless you can prove otherwise.. and it being a statistic device isn't proof.

I do from Strider92 who is the defacto Midnighter expert.

@strider92

The Battle Computer is very very haxed. Midnighter once used it to see that his actions would cause world war 3 three at one point which would have taken place possibly months after he made his move. So no its not just whats in sight and it can work days in advance.

Can I get the issue number please just to sink this in to these guys?

The facts are the Battle Computer is a hax device that defies logic of any kind period.

He had a ton of those cards made and if memory serves they were used (mainly) for intimidation purposes.

The c ards are right. He can see into the most likely freaking future. It is a hax device, you have no way around it at all.

The fact is as soon as the battle starts I have full knowledge.

Psylocke is going to start out by putting up telepathic shields in Kakashi's brain, and impart her knowledge in his head on how to defend from a psychic attack. Wolverine already has great TP resistance with shields from Xavier and Jean. Betsy can defend herself just fine.

How can you just defend from Psy attack?! I cannot walk up to Xavier and prepare my mind. That is the lamest excuse yet. Espiciialy against 2 Xavier level telepaths. Good luck with that.

As I've already shown Betsy can mask herself from Logan's senses when she's practically on top of him so she'll do the same thing for herself and Kakashi. She'll also hide the two of them from your teams psychic probes.

No, all you shown was Invisibility, that is it. Nice try.

Now as far as your team knows Wolverine is here alone and they'll continue to think so as they can't sense Psylocke and Kakashi.

LOL no, the Battle Computer will know and tell me as well the Smelling senses of 3 Wolverine beings.

They'll get to a vantage point and keep a lookout for Logan; sensing your teams approach and monitoring any approach, whether visual or not shouldn't be a problem for my team as they now have the high ground.

When your team gets within 300 feet to use their T.P they'll think he's alone so Betsy and Kakashi will ambush them After springing my ambush Betsy will drop the camouflage (there's no need for it anymore) and my team will attack their targets.

This post is a fail as you failed to adress any of my points at all of Senses, Stronger Telepaths, and a Midnighter Battle CPU.

616 Wolverine will go for 1610 Wolverine.

616 Wolverine has an experience advantage over 1610 Wolverine, a greater repertoire of skills, more durable adamantium and arguably better healing. Ultimate does have a phaser but like a firearm it shouldn't be effective within a certain range (given Logan's speed I'd say 100 feet). It'll be a long nasty fight but the advantages my Wolverine carry should win the day.

All not true.Wolverine Phaser is nothing more than a opening device with the self destruct. Then you have Ultimate Wolverine, 3 Decoys that look, act, smell, and sound the same as Ultimate wolverine converging on yours.

Step one: Phaser TK to Wolverine for initial damage.

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Phaser on Overload can destroy a Quadrant of a Star Ship. The damage to Wolverine will be nasty.

Step two: Ultimate Wolverine and 3 Decoys on the now damaged Wolverine.

Instant win when Xavier and Rogue show up after easy beating Kakashi and Psylock.

Ultimate Wolverine is the top 3 of Ultimate Marvel Martial Artist period. He has fought beings greater than 616 Wolverine has and won.

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Wolverine fights the New X-Team as a Dnager Room sim. Xavier input alot of work into that accurate program that Wolvie decimates in seconds. Everyone other than Storm on that team is experience fighter to boot.

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Wolverine vs Sabertooth in their first Comic Battle. Wolvie at the time was getting roughed up.

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wolverine vs Sabertooth who this time underwent Adamantium surgery himself. Close match.

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Flashback Battle of Wolverine vs Iraqis naked.

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Wolverine wipes out Zombie Army.

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Wolverine battles a large faction of Brotherhood of Mutants.

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Wolverine KOes Sabertooth in the opening move!

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Wolverine fights She Hulk, easy win.

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Wolverine fights Sabertooth in another battle. Storm proves a liability in this one.

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Wolverine while sick with a genetically modified super flu, puts down Thing! Anyone who saw my Utlimate F4 Tribute knows how superior Thing is to 616 Thing.

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Wolvie vs Gambit in a rematch. Gambit beat Wolvie pretty easy in the first match. Gambit had known what Wolvie was capable of, Wolvie was in the dark on Gambits Powers. This rematch showed Gambit getting badly beaten.

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Wolvie pwns Russian Super Soldiers made with Vision Parts.

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Here Wolverine battles a half powered Hyperion with no trouble. A full battle with Adamantium skeleton and Healing Factor tanking a half power Planet Buster!

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Wolverine vs Yuri! Only loses cause she had inside information of his only weak spot.

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Wolverine vs the reality warper Magician.

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Wolverine Decimates Sabertooth in their last encounter. He batles old Sabes again, then realizing Strom is in trouble, one shots Sabertooth, runs over to Cornelius, and one shots him with his trademark Decapitation move!

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Wolvie vs a host of Sentinals with no probs.

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Wolverine pretty much pwns Moria using the Banshee Drug against Wolverine.

All this shows just how skilled he is.

Kakashi will go for Rogue

Kakashi in the Narutoverse is known as the ninja of 1,000 jutsu. Now while that is largely hyperbole

he does have over two dozen jutsu that he's showcased at one point or another; in addition to the variety of other ways he can attack; this works to my advantage. Rogue's Battle computer will have to calculate the dozens of ways Kakashi can attack her and the various combination of techniques in the millions of scenarios in her head which should also reduce the effectiveness of the portion of Xavier's TP she absorbed.

Add in Kakashi's tactical skill and I have the perfect storm of circumstances to take her down. He's got a couple of ways he can take her down as well since he has no morals: drowning, decapitation, an explosive tag on the head, immobilizing via the head hunter technique, genjutsu etc.

This is silly as all get out. Kakashi is a no body to Rogue here who can easy win with a Mind Rape and TK BFR!

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Mind Rape for the epic solid win. If that is not enough....

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Or just incapacitate him with her TK power and throwing around! This TK can lift tons of Sentinel. So what keeps Kakashi doing anything but being thrown into the ocean?

Betsy will go for Xavier

Betsy should outclass Ultimate Xavier in terms off TK, and h2h and I want to say TP as well so any combination of those he wants to engage in she should be fine.

In terms of h2h she has extensive training, including from AOA Sabertooth; the hand and other sources. She's been able to stalemate 616 Wolverine, she's flat out beaten alternate versions of Wolverine and she's beaten ninja masters.

In terms of TK Betsy has feats that put her in the upper echilon of TK users in 616, if Xavier wants to get into a battle of T.K it'll end with her popping his head like an overcooked hotdog.

Her TP is also very potent and she should not be underestimated as a 'second tier' psychic, she's at the Omega level of telepaths and at the very least would match 1610 Xavier and at the most would beat him.

Now while he does have a healing factor Psylocke has a Katana that can sever his head from it's shoulders

So we ignore the fact Xavier can use TP to increase Skills and Download Skill form others minds?

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Improves Skill.

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Here he is downloading all the skill and knowledge of the best surgeons!

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Here he is using Magneto's power with great skill via TP!

Fact is Xavier is going to Mentally or TK incapacitate Psylock faster than she can. He is just stronger, more skilled via TP download of Wolverine, and has a Healing Factor!]

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She will go down faster than this Raptor!

You got nothing.

I am ready for votes after this, I been addressing the same points over again while no counters been made to mine.

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#18 Edited by Jokergeist (4715 posts) - - Show Bio
@cadencev2 said:

The facts are the Battle Computer is a hax device that defies logic of any kind period.

He had a ton of those cards made and if memory serves they were used (mainly) for intimidation purposes.

The c ards are right. He can see into the most likely freaking future. It is a hax device, you have no way around it at all.

The fact is as soon as the battle starts I have full knowledge.

Battle Computer ≠ Full Knowledge

Just because we don't understand how the Battle CPU works, doesn't mean it defies logic. Like I said, in a debate based on logic, only logic can be accounted for.

The Battle Computer was designed for combat. Its uses are combat-exclusive, meaning it only works during a direct fight. So we can logically presume that it only functions during a given combat situation, meaning when its user is directly fighting an opponent. Only when it acknowledges a fight unfolding then it can process the opponent's thoughts and run through the combat situation millions of times.

The Battle CPU is not an unlimited database containing information of everyone and everything in the whole f*cking universe. It's a device made for combat. You can call it a "hack device" all you want, but that doesn't confirm anything. The Battle CPU obtains full knowledge of only people engaged in combat, not everybody in existence.

Rouge will obtain Full Knowledge of only those who fall into combat, but has no knowledge until battle has initiated. Keep in mind that this is a super-complex device that cannot be mastered in only a month.

The Jokergeist Has Spoken.

Calling Card

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#19 Edited by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001:

Battle Computer ≠ Full Knowledge

Just because we don't understand how the Battle CPU works, doesn't mean it defies logic. Like I said, in a debate based on logic, only logic can be accounted for.

The Battle Computer was designed for combat. Its uses are combat-exclusive, meaning it only works during a direct fight. So we can logically presume that it only functions during a given combat situation, meaning when its user is directly fighting an opponent. Only when it acknowledges a fight unfolding then it can process the opponent's thoughts and run through the combat situation millions of times.

The Battle CPU is not an unlimited database containing information of everyone and everything in the whole f*cking universe. It's a device made for combat. You can call it a "hack device" all you want, but that doesn't confirm anything. The Battle CPU obtains full knowledge of only people engaged in combat, not everybody in existence.

Rouge will obtain Full Knowledge of only those who fall into combat, but has no knowledge until battle has initiated. Keep in mind that this is a super-complex device that cannot be mastered in only a month.

The Jokergeist Has Spoken.

So now your nerfing it?Even after it predicted the making and fall outs of World War 3? Ok..... Then in that case as soon as the battle starts, Force Fields of TK origin, Mind Protection, and hunt down his team via senses. When I find Wolverine, Phaser set on Disintegrate, and I win!

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As seen one shot will Vaporizes Wolverine on the Molecule Level and the shot travels at the speed of light.

Wolverine dies a easy death. I win still!

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#20 Posted by Jokergeist (4715 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: LOL. NERFING it? Ha, I didn't nerf it at all.

Nerfing would be weakening its power. The power of the Battle CPU is unspecified - If its power is unclear, how can it be weakened? Since little information on its power has been confirmed, I used what HAS been confirmed to specify its abilities. Rather than assuming that it has no limit, I specified its power based on what it has done before.

Therefore I simply used its confirmed information as a basis to specify what its capable of:

The Battle Computer was designed for combat. Its uses are combat-exclusive, meaning it only works during a direct fight. So we can logically presume that it only functions during a given combat situation, meaning when its user is directly fighting an opponent. Only when it acknowledges a fight unfolding then it can process the opponent's thoughts and run through the combat situation millions of times.

The Battle CPU is not an unlimited database containing information of everyone and everything in the whole f*cking universe. It's a device made for combat. You can call it a "hack device" all you want, but that doesn't confirm anything. The Battle CPU obtains full knowledge of only people engaged in combat, not everybody in existence.

^This is the only logical explanation. Much more logical that saying "it's a hax device so it has no limit." You were abusing the uses of the Battle Computer by using hypothetical assumptions, and I won't allow it.

In fact, you have no reason to complain, at all. It's still a HUGE advantage, being able to run through a given combat situation millions of times, almost instantly covering nearly every possible result before the first punch is even thrown. Even if it only works during combat, its a

HUGE

advantage. Wake up and smell the huge advantage that you have :)

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#21 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: LOL. NERFING it? Ha, I didn't nerf it at all.

Nerfing would be weakening its power. The power of the Battle CPU is unspecified - If its power is unclear, how can it be weakened? Since little information on its power has been confirmed, I used what HAS been confirmed to specify its abilities. Rather than assuming that it has no limit, I specified its power based on what it has done before.

Therefore I simply used its confirmed information as a basis to specify what its capable of:

The Battle Computer was designed for combat. Its uses are combat-exclusive, meaning it only works during a direct fight. So we can logically presume that it only functions during a given combat situation, meaning when its user is directly fighting an opponent. Only when it acknowledges a fight unfolding then it can process the opponent's thoughts and run through the combat situation millions of times.

The Battle CPU is not an unlimited database containing information of everyone and everything in the whole f*cking universe. It's a device made for combat. You can call it a "hack device" all you want, but that doesn't confirm anything. The Battle CPU obtains full knowledge of only people engaged in combat, not everybody in existence.

^This is the only logical explanation. Much more logical that saying "it's a hax device so it has no limit." You were abusing the uses of the Battle Computer by using hypothetical assumptions, and I won't allow it.

In fact, you have no reason to complain, at all. It's still a HUGE advantage, being able to run through a given combat situation millions of times, almost instantly covering nearly every possible result before the first punch is even thrown. Even if it only works during combat, its a

HUGE

advantage. Wake up and smell the huge advantage that you have :)

However the fact remains it has been used over vast distances and time of outcomes relating to possible battles. That is also a logical fact. It also have given the limits and use of powers from beings Midnighter has never met before, thus it is a hax device in the way I am using it. However if we limit it to me seeing someone in my sight only, then so be it, it is nerfing it when the feats it has done are there as fact.

As for the Huge Advantage it is, I can say it is only good for the Full knowledge it grants me. I have a Team of Xavier Telapths with TK, Wolverine Healing, and a Vaporizing TOS Phaser. The 3 Decoys and Battle CPU are icing on the cake.

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#22 Edited by Jokergeist (4715 posts) - - Show Bio
@cadencev2 said:

The 3 Decoys and Battle CPU are icing on the cake.

Exactly! Its a pretty darn good bag, if I do say so myself. Honestly even with the limit that I specified, the Battle CPU is still OP. And to add to this you have an uber-powerful disintegration ray gun, and THREE Life Model Decoys in the identity of Wolverine! So I was annoyed when you were unsatisfied even with a super awesome Goodie Bag like this. I was like "WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT!??"

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#23 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

The 3 Decoys and Battle CPU are icing on the cake.

Exactly! Its a pretty darn good bag, if I do say so myself. Honestly even with the limit that I specified, the Battle CPU is still OP. And to add to this you have an uber-powerful disintegration ray gun, and THREE Life Model Decoys in the identity of Wolverine! So I was annoyed when you were unsatisfied even with a super awesome Goodie Bag like this. I was like "WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT!??"

Well I could use a bottle of Sangria right about now, it is a exotic park with a beach.

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#24 Posted by Jokergeist (4715 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2

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There. Now shut up about the Battle Computer <3

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#25 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2

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There. Now shut up about the Battle Computer <3

Alright! Beach, victory, and since Psylock been Brain wipe to serve as my maid!

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Means this for me!

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Best Tourney EVER!

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#26 Edited by Sovereign91001 (6838 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

How can you just defend from Psy attack?! I cannot walk up to Xavier and prepare my mind. That is the lamest excuse yet. Espiciialy against 2 Xavier level telepaths. Good luck with that.

Call it lame if you will but it's pretty standard knowledge that all the X-Men are trained in recognizing and defending against mental attacks, currently in Wolverine And The X-Men comic Rachel Grey teaches the Psychic defense class. This isn't some new addition either as far back as 1980 in the Days Of Future Past arc this is known. Kate Pryde (with help from Rachel Grey) broke into Kitty Pryde's mind (who had just joined the X-Men the day before or sp) because she didn't know how to defend from telepathic attacks.

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Stated plain as day on pannel implying that in the future Kitty would know how to defend from psychic attacks. Now let's fast forward a few years and go to All New X-Men and revisit Kitty Pryde.

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Stating she has training against Psychics, in another issue she states it was Jean herself who trained her. So long story short non telepaths can defend from telepathic attacks and its beyond foolish to assume that Psylocke who spent years with the X-Men and is a psychic herself doesn't know a few things about mental defense. And you also conveniently glossed over where I said she constructs Psychic shields in his head; much like was done for Wolverine.

Also Rogue has a portion of Xavier's telepathy she is not as strong as him so please stop reffering to having two Xavier level telepaths; you have 1 and Rogue with part of Xavier's telepathic power.

Lastly here are some scans of Rachel teaching the class I talked about earlier.

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No, all you shown was Invisibility, that is it. Nice try.

Did you bother to look at the third scan I showed? The one where she's not facing Wolverine (so there is no need for invisibility) and the text says that she "masks any hint of her presence" Do you honestly think she could sneak up on Wolverine without masking herself to his hyper senses? He can hear heart beats from a dozen feet away through a closed dooe, can use his smell like a sense of Radar etc. Oh and btw she turns herself invisible with her TK; those are two different showings with two different sets of powers.

This post is a fail as you failed to adress any of my points at all of Senses, Stronger Telepaths, and a Midnighter Battle CPU.

Except I adressed all of that in the 10th post of this thread; seriously go back and read it.

All not true.Wolverine Phaser is nothing more than a opening device with the self destruct. Then you have Ultimate Wolverine, 3 Decoys that look, act, smell, and sound the same as Ultimate wolverine converging on yours.

Step one: Phaser TK to Wolverine for initial damage. Phaser on Overload can destroy a Quadrant of a Star Ship. The damage to Wolverine will be nasty.

Step two: Ultimate Wolverine and 3 Decoys on the now damaged Wolverine.

Instant win when Xavier and Rogue show up after easy beating Kakashi and Psylock.

Ultimate Wolverine is the top 3 of Ultimate Marvel Martial Artist period. He has fought beings greater than 616 Wolverine has and won.

Dude you want to play the scan dump game? Fine let's do it. Before I do let me state I generally don't like doing this in a debate as it seems like more fluff than substance and little more than a d*** measuring contest. But let it not be said I haven't shown what my team can do.

Can move fast enough to leave after images

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Fights thousands of ninja and wins.

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Fights a who's who of his villians (Sabetooth, Silver Samurai, Mystique, Daken just to name a few) at the same time and wins (scans are reversed)

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Takes on Sabertooth, Weapon III, Omega Red and Omega White

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Takes down Kid Gladiator with pressure points

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Takes down Shang Chi in h2h

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Everything moves in slow motion during combat

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Tanks Ragnorok's Lightning and remains concious (in reverse order)

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Can move so fast he can disappear from sight.

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Great skill showing (scans are reversed).

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Regenerates from just his skeleton (scans are backwards)

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More High level regen.

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I'm tired of posting scans so here is a list of people Wolverine has faced at one point or another and had either out right won or had good showings against in 616 Continuity:

Abomination, Absorbing Man, Angel, Beast, Black Panther, Blade, Cable, Captain America, Colossus Crossbones, Cyclops, Daredevil, Deadpool, Deathstrike, Elektra, Exodus, Gambit, Ghost Rider, Havok, Hercules, Hulk (Grey, Savage and WWH), Human Torch, Iceman, Ogun, Omega Red, Magneto, Mister X Namor, Nightcrawler, Punisher, Psylocke, Sabertooth, Sauron, Shang-Chi, Silver Samurai, Spider Woman,The Thing, Winter Soldier, X-23

And that's not even a complete list; 616 Wolverine has hundreds, probably thousands of showings that give him the edge over 1610 Wolverine just in the sheer verity of foes he's faced and all the years of combat experience he's racked up.

And as for your overload Phaser bomb strategy:

Your either going to have to throw it which Kakashi can easily Kamui it out of the air or run it up and he can poof it out of your LMD's hand or Psylocke can blast it apart with TK. Phasers give off a very distinct noise when they're set to overload and my team isn't going to let your plan come to fruition

Let's move onto Psylocke :

Telepathy

Using her TP to reach into a dying Gateway's mind and uses his powers to teleport all of X-Force.

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Mind scanning an entire town and penetrating Juggs helmet with her TP

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The Shadow King Fight

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In case you didn't read it earlier overpowering the Shadow King is something 616 Xavier hasn't been able to do. Psylocke did it and could have killed him but refrained. Now a little background; The first time Betsy fought the Shadow King he was controlling all of 616 Earth and even still he was whomping her; she had to sacrafice her TP to contain him; she won by his over extending. Now in that feat she does that while he's not controlling anyone; in fact she outmuscles him. That feat alone places her TP at 616 Xavier level which is higher than 1610 Xavier level. And fyi he didn't break her psyche (she induced amnesia and used it to escape the astral plane).

Telekinesis

I've already shown molecular level TK from Psylocke (vibrating her molocules to turn invisible so let's get into her other feats.

Raw TK power

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Even taking that half of that feat was Rachel that is more telekinetic power than 1610 Xavier has shown and no that's not a Phoenix enhanced Rachel, that's her base level TK that's from Uncanny X-Men 471 so it's long after the Phoenix left Rachel and before she was empowered by the Phoenix Echo. The tattoo manifests on her face anytime she used her powers back then.

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Uses her TK to break through a planetary level shield. Happened back when she was with the Exiles (New Exiles 4) and she only had TK.

And both of those TK feats were pre power up so Betsy is stronger now than she was in either of those showings.

Hand To Hand

Takes it to AOA Sabertooth and Morph

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Trains with and beats Ogun; obtains a lifetime of fighting skill (on top of all the other training she's received)

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Beats Slaymaster

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Beats Hand Ninja

Beats Yukiko

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Fights Wolverine (one of their many skirmishes)

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Like Wolverine she has a ton of h2h showings and I could be on here posting her fights all day but I think that's enough to get my point across.

In your scans you've shown nothing Psylocke couldn't do prior to her power up and in some cases you've actually shown less than she could do.

So again no Psylocke is not the weaker telepath or telekintetic, in fact considering that Rogue only has a portion of Xavier's TP/ TK they could combine their respective TK and she'd still overpower them. And to reiterate what I said earlier: TP, TK or h2h Betsy can outmatch 1610 Xavier in any of them.

TK she crushes his head or explodes his brain

TP she breaks his mind and takes of his head

H2H she beats him down and ends up taking his head off with her katana (the metal one).

Moving onto Rogue.

This is silly as all get out. Kakashi is a no body to Rogue here who can easy win with a Mind Rape and TK BFR!

Well getting over that BFR isn't a win condition let's talk about the telepathy for a second.

1. Kakashi now has psychic shields and knowledge on how to fend off a telepathic attack.

2. Rogue only has a portion of Xavier's telepathy and TK.

3. Her brains resources are also divided by the Battle Computer.

Those three facts mean your mindrape is not an autowin here as neither is the TK. Rogue won't be able to preform to the level of Xavier as she doesn't have that same level of power.

Literally all Kakashi has to do is look at Rogue and this fight is over; hypnotism (what his Sharingan does) bypasses psionic defenses (like Fantomex's misdirection) because it's not a psionic attack.

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He genjutsu's her and then it's a simple matter of him taking her head off for the win (which he'll have no problem doing with no morals). And before you come in with LOL BATTLE COMPUTER I WIN!!!

Let me (again) say:

Rogue likely hasn't mastered the device to Midnighter's level

Of the millions of probable attack scenarios the chance of her guessing correctly is almost nil, and if you want to say she's keeping her eyes closed; good luck using your TK or countering any of the other moves he can preform.

Like what?

By summoning a pair of shadow clones he'll effectively nuetralize a large portion of Rogue's game.

But you can mind scan the other two and find out which is the real one right?

All the clone has to think is 'I'm the real one' 'I cast the jutsu' and Rogue won't know which one it is, not to mention she'll have to mind scan them one at a time (and break through their psychic defenses) as psychic attacks can only effect one opponent at a time; she'll have a 1/3 shot of guessing correctly off the bat.

Not to mention any chance of Rogues's battle computer working correctly are tanked; three Kakashi's attacking in perfect concert...after all who better to know how Kakashi will attack than Kakashi? I don't see her being able to predict and counter the three Kakashi's

Meanwhile he's free to preform Raikiri

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Pull her underground with the headhunter technique

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Use his Lightning Chain jutsu

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Lightning Beast

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Or use a mix and match of those (and the two dozen or so other) jutsu he has most of which should be able to put Rogue down long enough for the other two (original or clone to move in for the kill. In addition he has Kunai which he can charge with Raikiri and use Kamui to move them across the field to catch her off guard.

And since clones can utalize techniques as well; Body Flicker and Substituion are viable options for evasion and increasing movement speed.

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As for the TK Kakashi has faced an opponent with TK much greater than anything allowed in this tournament; Pein who through gravity manipulation was capable of flattening an entire city. He tried to use his abilities against Kakashi and Kakashi was able to nearly kill him and he had six other bodies protecting him.

Kakashi can take Rogue down.

I am ready for votes after this, I been addressing the same points over again while no counters been made to mine

What points have you made that I haven't adressed? The gist of your argument thus far has been based on two points:

1. LOL I GOT THE BATTLE COMPUTER, BATTLE COMPUTER EQUALS SUPER HAX LOL I GET AUTOWIN!!!

2. My Psychics are stronger than yours! I can mindrape for the AUTOWIN!!!

(Both of which are incorrect)

(Three points if you want to count your attempts to disregard my characters completely as any kind of a credible threat.)

Of your two main points I've addressed both points multiple times. You on the other hand have failed to address the three or four times I've pointed out various ways that the CPU won't be the autowin devices you think it'll be. Or the information I brought up about Psylocke's level of TP.

TBH coming into this debate I was looking forward to a great debate with one of Comicvine's best. You and I have had a few debates before but we've have never finished any of them due to various circumstances. I've seen you at your best Cadence and I have a lot of respect for your skills and knowledge. I have to say I'm a bit disappointed in the effort you've put forth and the seeming disregard you've shown in this debate. And while I doubt that means much of anything to you I felt I needed to get it off my chest.

With all that said no hard feelings and if you want to go to votes that's fine, I'm satisfied with what I've posted.

@jokergeist

We're ready for votes.

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#27 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001: Im sorry however I have to address some flat out wrong things.

Call it lame if you will but it's pretty standard knowledge that all the X-Men are trained in recognizing and defending against mental attacks, currently in Wolverine And The X-Men comic Rachel Grey teaches the Psychic defense class. This isn't some new addition either as far back as 1980 in the Days Of Future Past arc this is known. Kate Pryde (with help from Rachel Grey) broke into Kitty Pryde's mind (who had just joined the X-Men the day before or sp) because she didn't know how to defend from telepathic attacks.

Stated plain as day on pannel implying that in the future Kitty would know how to defend from psychic attacks. Now let's fast forward a few years and go to All New X-Men and revisit Kitty Pryde.

Stating she has training against Psychics, in another issue she states it was Jean herself who trained her. So long story short non telepaths can defend from telepathic attacks and its beyond foolish to assume that Psylocke who spent years with the X-Men and is a psychic herself doesn't know a few things about mental defense. And you also conveniently glossed over where I said she constructs Psychic shields in his head; much like was done for Wolverine.

This just shows weak level telepaths like Early Marvel Girl can be sensed by Kitty, notice in your own scans Jean STILL is able to read Kitty's mind against Kitty's will.

Great showing....

Also Rogue has a portion of Xavier's telepathy she is not as strong as him so please stop reffering to having two Xavier level telepaths; you have 1 and Rogue with part of Xavier's telepathic power.

Um.... no. You may know alot of 616 Rogue, however Ultimate Rogue with a touch has always shown to get the full power of the mutant she touches. So I would have 2 Xavier level beings.

Did you bother to look at the third scan I showed? The one where she's not facing Wolverine (so there is no need for invisibility) and the text says that she "masks any hint of her presence" Do you honestly think she could sneak up on Wolverine without masking herself to his hyper senses? He can hear heart beats from a dozen feet away through a closed dooe, can use his smell like a sense of Radar etc. Oh and btw she turns herself invisible with her TK; those are two different showings with two different sets of powers.

Im still failing how she is masking her smell, sound, or the way the environment will react to her movements.

Except I adressed all of that in the 10th post of this thread; seriously go back and read it.

Not really, you showed no scans of countering the senses and enviroment being affected by your movements. Nothing showed against the Electron Brain reading Technology of the Battle CPU.

You showed nothing.

Dude you want to play the scan dump game? Fine let's do it. Before I do let me state I generally don't like doing this in a debate as it seems like more fluff than substance and little more than a d*** measuring contest. But let it not be said I haven't shown what my team can do.

I'm tired of posting scans so here is a list of people Wolverine has faced at one point or another and had either out right won or had good showings against in 616 Continuity

Abomination, Absorbing Man, Angel, Beast, Black Panther, Blade, Cable, Captain America, Colossus Crossbones, Cyclops, Daredevil, Deadpool, Deathstrike, Elektra, Exodus, Gambit, Ghost Rider, Havok, Hercules, Hulk (Grey, Savage and WWH), Human Torch, Iceman, Ogun, Omega Red, Magneto, Mister X Namor, Nightcrawler, Punisher, Psylocke, Sabertooth, Sauron, Shang-Chi, Silver Samurai, Spider Woman,The Thing, Winter Soldier, X-23

And that's not even a complete list; 616 Wolverine has hundreds, probably thousands of showings that give him the edge over 1610 Wolverine just in the sheer verity of foes he's faced and all the years of combat experience he's racked up.

LOL, of course 616 has more feats, my point is Ultimate has shown to be more than a match with what he has shown. Just because you have more feats of Wolverine does not equal better fighter. Look at Daken, has way fewer feats, yet we know he could take Wolverine with the feats he has. How about Ultimate Spider Man? Way fewer feats yet many Viners know he can beat 616 Wolverine. And do not act like 616 Wolverine is the best in the world. He gets punked so much by Punisher, Kaine, Spider Woman, and even the freaking Hood who blows his nads off! As many feats 616 Wolverine has, he has twice as many of being beaten by less. Ultimate Wolverine is more than a match base of the feats he has.

So good luck trying to convince 616 Wolverine is the best because he has more comics.

And as for your overload Phaser bomb strategy:

Your either going to have to throw it which Kakashi can easily Kamui it out of the air or run it up and he can poof it out of your LMD's hand or Psylocke can blast it apart with TK. Phasers give off a very distinct noise when they're set to overload and my team isn't going to let your plan come to fruition

So Kakashi will throw off a TK powered throw? I dont think so.....

Telepathy

Using her TP to reach into a dying Gateway's mind and uses his powers to teleport all of X-Force.

Mind scanning an entire town and penetrating Juggs helmet with her TP

The Shadow King Fight

In case you didn't read it earlier overpowering the Shadow King is something 616 Xavier hasn't been able to do. Psylocke did it and could have killed him but refrained. Now a little background; The first time Betsy fought the Shadow King he was controlling all of 616 Earth and even still he was whomping her; she had to sacrafice her TP to contain him; she won by his over extending. Now in that feat she does that while he's not controlling anyone; in fact she outmuscles him. That feat alone places her TP at 616 Xavier level which is higher than 1610 Xavier level. And fyi he didn't break her psyche (she induced amnesia and used it to escape the astral plane).

So now your trying to say 616 Xavier is better than Ultimate Xavier. And somehow Psylock TP is more power than Phoenix. Cause 616 Xavier and Ultimate Xavier have TP contest with Phoenix and Ultimate Xavier has TP Gah Lak Tus minds and survive a Technopath Psychic hit from a world destroyer of the the universe.

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The power of Gah Lak Tus.

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Xavier touches his mind enough to get info and survive.

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Or Mentally combating the most power telepath (total control over Mutants period) Apocalypse? Xavier TP was the only one close to challenging, the only person who TP beat Apoc was Phoenix! Speaking of Phoenix....

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It took a collection effort of the Universe to Imprison her, as she was impossible to destroy, into Earth. There she waited to a perfect vessel appeared, Jean.

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Phoenix released by the Hellfire Club. She Atomizes the Club members and then with her powers bring back the dead, cured sickness, ect. Xavier nearly kills himself in a brain battle till Phoenix decided to retreat into Jean.

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Phoenix battles Xavier again, she clearly has the upper hand with ease, Xavier only chance was to appeal to Jean to take control. He may not have Raw power of Phoenix but like Emma says "Raw Power < Finesse"

Also if her TP is greater than Xavier who contain the Phoenix, then she is higher than Miss Martian which are the Limits. You basically trying to prove Psylock > Xavier > Phoenix Avatar. Really?!

Telekinesis

I've already shown molecular level TK from Psylocke (vibrating her molocules to turn invisible so let's get into her other feats.

Raw TK power

Even taking that half of that feat was Rachel that is more telekinetic power than 1610 Xavier has shown and no that's not a Phoenix enhanced Rachel, that's her base level TK that's from Uncanny X-Men 471 so it's long after the Phoenix left Rachel and before she was empowered by the Phoenix Echo. The tattoo manifests on her face anytime she used her powers back then.

Uses her TK to break through a planetary level shield. Happened back when she was with the Exiles (New Exiles 4) and she only had TK.

And both of those TK feats were pre power up so Betsy is stronger now than she was in either of those showings.

So now your saying your TK is more than Ravens limit?! You just break all the rules huh.

@jokergeist So we are establishing Psylock is breaking both the Miss Martian Limit in Raw TP power and Raven Limit in TK. IS Psylock DQued now?

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#28 Posted by Jokergeist (4715 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll leave it to the voters to decide. They'll either believe Sovereign and his claims about Psylocke's TP/TK Power and decide from there, or they could go off of their own knowledge of Psylocke. If they find her to be out of the limits they'll vote against him, but if they're convinced that her TP defense can hold off against your psychic attacks then we'll see what happens.

So @sovereign91001 and @cadencev2, do you guys have anything left to say, or are 'yall ready for votes? Once this opens to votes no more debating may be done.

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#29 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll leave it to the voters to decide. They'll either believe Sovereign and his claims about Psylocke's TP/TK Power and decide from there, or they could go off of their own knowledge of Psylocke. If they find her to be out of the limits they'll vote against him, but if they're convinced that her TP defense can hold off against your psychic attacks then we'll see what happens.

So @sovereign91001 and @cadencev2, do you guys have anything left to say, or are 'yall ready for votes? Once this opens to votes no more debating may be done.

Im confident both My Xavier Level beings (With TK and TP), with Wolverine Healing Factors, Wolverine Skills combined with my Atomizing TOS Phaser, 3 Wolverine Decoys, and Battle Computer will be voted as the sure win.

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#30 Posted by Sovereign91001 (6838 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2

This just shows weak level telepaths like Early Marvel Girl can be sensed by Kitty, notice in your own scans Jean STILL is able to read Kitty's mind against Kitty's will.

Great showing....

Okay Kitty is letting Jean into her mind she even says "I leave my bedroom door open" she's not trying to force Jean out; she's trying to teach her to use her TP with more discipline. It's one of the things that's been revisited a few times in All New X-Men (the theme of teen Jean's reckless use of her power)as anyone who's reading the book can tell you. Not to mention what you're implying flies in the face of even having a telepathic defense class for the X-Men if telepathy is the be all end all.

There are times when non telepaths: Sabertooth, Wolverine, Norman Osborn, Storm etc. have been able to resist telepathic attacks from full fledged telepaths. Norman for example has been able to rebuff Nate Grey (X-Man).

Phoenix battles Xavier again, she clearly has the upper hand with ease, Xavier only chance was to appeal to Jean to take control. He may not have Raw power of Phoenix but like Emma says "Raw Power < Finesse"

Also if her TP is greater than Xavier who contain the Phoenix, then she is higher than Miss Martian which are the Limits. You basically trying to prove Psylock > Xavier > Phoenix Avatar. Really?!

Okay hold the phone.

First off all the Phoenix of Earth 1610, 616, 295 (AOA) and the various other realities all very wildly in power levels (and sometimes ability) so throwing around the Phoenix as a measuring stick across different Universe's in Marvel doesn't mean much.

Secondly 616 Xavier battled the 616 Phoenix and had to get reinforcements from Jean to suppress it. It happened in the Dark Phoenix Saga. Hell 616 Xavier even was an (briefly) and avatar of the Phoenix before.

And just so you and everyone reading is perfectly clear about what I'm saying in terms of power (currently): 616 Phoenix>>>>>> 616 Shadow King>616 Psylocke ≥ 616 Xavier >1610 Xavier.

You on the other hand are saying 1610 Xavier ≥ 616 Xavier > Psylocke

Which I'm not buying.

Oh and that line about finesse over power? That was Emma referring to Rachel Grey who (at the time) was a basically self trained telepath and couldn't even mask herslef from people with her TP. Psylocke has a large degree of finesse, has been trained by the worlds greatest telepaths and has quite a bit of raw power under her belt now.

BTW I love how we've gone from lol Psylocke's weak she's gonna get steamrolled to omg Psylocke is OP she needs to be DQ'ed.

LOL, of course 616 has more feats, my point is Ultimate has shown to be more than a match with what he has shown.

Which goes to the experience I said was in his favor that but you said 'was untrue'

Just because you have more feats of Wolverine does not equal better fighter. Look at Daken, has way fewer feats, yet we know he could take Wolverine with the feats he has.

I believe Wolverine is up on their encounters actually and that fight is much closer than some people think; mainly to do with Wolverine's mindset going into those early fights.

How about Ultimate Spider Man? Way fewer feats yet many Viners know he can beat 616 Wolverine. And do not act like 616 Wolverine is the best in the world.

I would think so, he outclasses Logan in strength and speed; not the case here. And who said anything about best in the world? The only one who's been throwing stuff like that around is you with Ult. Wolverine being 'Top 3' and all that.

He gets punked so much by Punisher, Kaine, Spider Woman, and even the freaking Hood who blows his nads off!

The Punisher? Really we're going by low showings now? I thought both of our teams were preforming at their best; that's the mindset I always go in with into a debate at least. If we're going to do that:

Ult. Wolverine got roflstomped by the Hulk. A Hulk that is inferior to the Savage Hulk that 616 Logan stood toe to toe with.

And as for Kaine? He damn well should beat Logan; he's a morals off Spider-Man with greater strength.

As many feats 616 Wolverine has, he has twice as many of being beaten by less.

That is a gross exaggeration and we both know that.

Ultimate Wolverine is more than a match base of the feats he has.

1610 Adamantium doesn't have the same durability feats that 616 Admantium does; in fact Ult. Wolverine was able to sever Ult. Sabertooth's adamantium laced neck from his head. This is not possible with 616 Admantium.

Wolverine is older than Ult. Wolverine and has more battle experience then him.

Wolverine has showcased a greater number of combat skills than his 1610 counterpart.

He has shown greater regeneration than 1610 Logan; being able to heal from a skeleton on multiple occasions. Ult. Wolverine was reduced to a skeleton by Ult. Magneto and is currently dead.

I'm confident my Wolverine has the edge here.

So Kakashi will throw off a TK powered throw? I dont think so.....

Are you aware how Kamui works? Kakashi opens a hole to another dimension with his eye. Much like Blink can open portals with her arrows? Kakashi can open a portal with his eye.

So TK powered (which has zero relevance) or not I can open a hole around your airborne phaser and let it sink through. And before you come with it's too fast to see and or react too, I'll remind you that: 1. The Sharingan gives him a tracking eye and let's him movement and 2. He has tracked a missile through the air and poofed it.

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And recently he's mastered using Kamui for teleportation so I can open up another portal and poof the phaser on top off / in front of your team.

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Congratulations, you just blew up (likely atomized) your own team.

@jokergeist I'm ready to vote but if Cadence is going to keep adding information and attempting to counter my posts, I'll keep posting. So it's on him; if he says he's done we're done. If he's gonna keep posting stuff; we can post.

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#32 Edited by Sovereign91001 (6838 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by Wardemon32 (5486 posts) - - Show Bio

Sovereign gets my vote

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#34 Posted by Dratini1331 (7916 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote Jokergeist! oh, wait, he's not an option? Ah well, I guess i'll go with Sovereign =P

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#35 Edited by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

I can see me losing already when he has no counters to anything I pointed out. Oyvee. This is becoming a trend.

@sovereign91001: Just so you know, we are at votes, and yet there is so much delusion assumption on your counter and what you think you know of Ultimate Adamantium. Its almost frustrating reading such underhanded misconceptions....

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#37 Edited by Sovereign91001 (6838 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: First off I don't appreciate you implying that I'm being underhanded; I've never been underhanded in a debate...ever, win, lose or draw.

Second as you've stated we're at votes now. The debate is over; if you have a problem with what I posted or wish to address my 'delusions' feel free to PM me; we can talk about it (or argue if that's your cup of tea) all you want.

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#38 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@sovereign91001: There really is no point, I posted the facts and hopefully people will see it. Wether you meant it underhanded, it seem that way to me after I explain it and most people on this sight know it as near common knowledge.

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#39 Posted by Sovereign91001 (6838 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Well apparently you didn't know that the main continuity X-Men are all trained in psychic defense which is as I said pretty common knowledge going as far back as 1980. You went so far as to call it a 'lame excuse' and went on to largely ignore the point.

Yet I didn't call you delusional and underhanded; in fact you were dismissive of me and my characters throughout the entire debate.

Show me the same respect I show you.

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#40 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Well apparently you didn't know that the main continuity X-Men are all trained in psychic defense which is as I said pretty common knowledge going as far back as 1980. You went so far as to call it a 'lame excuse' and went on to largely ignore the point.

Yet I didn't call you delusional and underhanded; in fact you were dismissive of me and my characters throughout the entire debate.

Show me the same respect I show you.

Except I pointed out the blatant fact that the weak Marvel Girl was easily reading Kitty's mind despite her lame defense. I also read the comics from the 60s to 2000s of every issue of Uncanny X-Men and nowhere does the Psy Defense save them from Emma Frost, Jean, Mary Madylin, Rachel Grey, or the hundreds of other Telepaths. I did not dismiss, I countered it. Meanwhile you insist Ultimate Adamantium is inferior base on what? I showed it was not and then you countered with Cutting Sabes neck through, which means didly when Sabes never was stated or showed to have it in his neck, only the 4 Claws. which has never showed again for his last 5 appearances. Last 5 out of 8 appearances.

If you were not trying to be underhanded, then I apologize, it felt that way as many people try to pull that card on Ultimate Marvel.

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#41 Posted by Angryprune (747 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm, probably going with cadence his argument was more feat heavy

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#42 Posted by dondave (41361 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Posted by Chaos Prime (11585 posts) - - Show Bio

Tough call, very tough call. Arguments for both teams here that normaly would swing my vote straight away but im undecided at the mo.

Going to have a re-read & vote later.

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#44 Posted by dondave (41361 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Ultimate Adamantium has been broken before

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#45 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@cadencev2: Ultimate Adamantium has been broken before

ha ha ha... no it hasnt. Go ahead and tell me one time.

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#46 Posted by Chaos Prime (11585 posts) - - Show Bio

Imo the numbers in favour of team CadenceV2 will be the deciding factor here so my vote is for @cadencev2

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#47 Edited by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaos_prime said:

Imo the numbers in favour of team CadenceV2 will be the deciding factor here so my vote is for @cadencev2

3-2 Sovereign Thanks.

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#48 Posted by Pop123 (100 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, this sort of got ugly at the end. I vote for @cadencev2, his argument of 2 Psychics on 1 is hard to counter. Plus a TOS Phaser? There never was a counter for a weapon that vaporizes buildings in one shot. Who thought a TOS Phaser is fair to use?

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#49 Edited by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

@pop123 said:

Wow, this sort of got ugly at the end. I vote for @cadencev2, his argument of 2 Psychics on 1 is hard to counter. Plus a TOS Phaser? There never was a counter for a weapon that vaporizes buildings in one shot. Who thought a TOS Phaser is fair to use?

3-3. Thanks.

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#50 Posted by GhostRider2 (4864 posts) - - Show Bio